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Evidence Found in Cabin; Confederate Flag Controversy; Solidarity in Charleston; Obama Talks Racism. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:24] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow, in for my friend Brooke Baldwin today. And we are following breaking news on the hunt for two fugitive killers. After 17 days on the run, police may now be closing in on these two men, these two escapees. A source close to the investigation telling us at CNN DNA - DNA from David Sweat and Richard Matt has been found inside of a camp cabin. This is the most credible, credible information they have received yet. It is happening right here in the densely wooded area of Owl Hills. That is just about 20 miles west of the prison where they escaped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: Recovered specific items from that cabin. We have forwarded them to the appropriate laboratories and reached conclusive determination, but we are not prepared to release that evidence at this time so we do not jeopardize the continuity of the investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Police are still being pretty tight-lipped on the source of that DNA, but what we do know is that police first swarmed the isolated cabin after someone called in a tip. The district attorney confirmed that a man came to check on the cabin. As he called out, a man bolted through the back door and out into the woods.

Let's go straight to our Sara Ganim. She is live in Owl Head, New York.

Sara, how significant - how significant of a lead is this for the investigators. They've been trying so hard for 17 days now to find these men.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is really significant, Poppy, as you know, because there, so far, has been only unconfirmed sightings. No hard evidence. And DNA evidence is something that they haven't had. They haven't even had tracks or any kind of indication of where they were since almost the beginning of the search. In fact, on Friday, it was investigators who said that the trail had likely - it seemed to have gone cold. So this is very significant. I just want to take you back a little bit to Saturday, how this tip came in. Someone who was checking an unoccupied cabin here in a wooded area - this is, of course, the Adirondacks, upstate New York - was checking on an unoccupied cabin and saw a man running out a back door and realized that this cabin had been burglarized, called state police. They came in. They began to investigate. They gathered evidence. And as sources tell CNN, they found conclusive DNA evidence that matched these two men.

As I mentioned before, this is significant because up until this point it has all been unconfirmed sightings that did bring in a massive search. The same scale, I would say, having been to some of them, but not leading to the same kind of evidence as they did here today, Poppy.

HARLOW: I know, Sara, there's also some concern from some of these law enforcement sources saying, look, they think these guys may actually be some way, somehow monitoring their radio communications? Is that right?

GANIM: This is a very, I would say, rural area. A lot of hiking trails, biking trails. Not a lot of cell service.

HARLOW: Right.

GANIM: So that is something that they've been talking about, going radio silent. Now I have to say, last weekend, when we talked to the district attorney, while they were searching closer to the prison, I asked him this question. I said, are you guys concerned that they have cell phones? And he said that they have no indication of that at this point, but that there are inmates still inside the correctional facility who've told investigators that before the escape they did see these two men with cell phones.

And, of course, if they're inside a cabin, even if it's unoccupied, even if it's a seasonal cabin, there is always that possibility that they have access to some kind of television or radio, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. And we're being told from that law enforcement source that these are two men who you can assume know - know that they have likely been spotted and that police are close on the trail. Sara Ganim, thank you for the reporting.

Let's talk about all of this with Billy Sorukas. He's a retired U.S. marshal.

What do you make of all of this? I mean this seems like the best chance they've had in 17 days.

BILLY SORUKAS, RETIRED U.S. MARSHAL: Well, this certainly is the information that law enforcement has been looking for and I think it's the type of information law enforcement has been expecting to develop, that they would break into a cabin, they would commit some sort of a crime. There is a whole vast array of information that will benefit law enforcement going forward with this. But the first things they need to sort out is, how long have they been at that cabin. I'm sure that they've developed that information by now in working with the owner of that cabin. Were they only there for a few hours? Were they there for a few days?

The other items that I think would be very important to the investigators there is, I understand from the reporting that there was a container of water and maybe peanut butter discovered. The investigators will research that to determine where that originated.

[14:05:05] HARLOW: Right.

SORUKAS: Was it in that cabin or did they bring it with them?

HARLOW: Right.

SORUKAS: Because I'm sure - I feel confident in telling you that they - we will probably find that they have been in other structures or other cabins in that same area.

HARLOW: And just to be clear, we at CNN don't have that confirmed. There are multiple reports saying perhaps water, perhaps peanut butter. We don't have that confirmed.

But what I can tell you is, I think a key question is, isn't it going to be - can they, from these DNA samples, determine how long ago they left? Are they able to do a time determination?

SORUKAS: No, you can't determine the age of when the sample was left.

HARLOW: OK.

SORUKAS: You can, based on other factors, though. What I understand is a witness saw them at the cabin. So that along with the DNA does give you the time frame that you're looking for.

HARLOW: When you look at this, do you believe it is possible that the two of these men could have been on the lam for 17 days with no outside help?

SORUKAS: I do. In that area and once their support network broke down when their ride was not available, they, again, had to make things up as they go. Mobility is their strongpoint right now. They can move faster than law enforcement can move. Hopefully, once the information was developed on Saturday about the sighting of these men, law enforcement was able to establish a perimeter wide enough based on the time difference between when they were spotted, the amount of geographic area they may be able to travel and get a perimeter outside of that established and then start working it from the inside.

HARLOW: But if this is indeed where they are, 20 miles west of the prison, why would they have stayed so close?

SORUKAS: I don't think that they had an option. I think they've been trying to just lay low wherever they were. How they may have been able to elude the initial perimeter that was set up, there's probably three ways they did that. One was that they were never inside the perimeter once it was established. Maybe they were just on the outside of it. Another way would be that they were able to sneak between the perimeter units that were stationed. And the third is that once the perimeter was relaxed in the last six or seven days, that they were able to finally move.

HARLOW: All right, Billy Sorukas, thank you for the insight. A former U.S. marshal. I appreciate it. We'll keep everyone posted as we get more developments on this massive manhunt that seems to finally be hopefully honing in on these two men. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, breaking news on the fate of the confederate flag in South Carolina. The governor of the state, Nikki Haley, expected to make a major announcement this afternoon about the future of that flag and her state.

This is - this as CNN is the first to report that Republican Presidential Candidate Lindsey Graham is also taking a very firm position right now on this issue.

Also, getting real with race. President Obama not mincing his words, using the n-word in an interview about America's race relations. We'll talk about that straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:12:30] HARLOW: All right, breaking news for you out of South Carolina within the last hour involving the confederate flag that flies right next to the state capital. Two of the state's most powerful elected officials, Republican Governor Nikki Haley and Republican Senator Lindsey Graham have scheduled a news conference for 4:00 Eastern today and CNN is first to report that according to our chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash, Graham will call for that flag to be taken down, removed from that memorial right beside the statehouse. Also, South Carolina media outlets reporting that Governor Haley will make that same appeal.

Let's head straight to Capitol Hill where our Athena Jones joins us live.

Athena, this - this is big.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is big. This is significant. We're talking about a flag that has been flying for more than 40 years there on the statehouse grounds or near the statehouse grounds. Senator Lindsey Graham, as you mentioned, is going to ask that - or call for that flag to be removed from statehouse grounds and put in a museum. That echoes what Mitt Romney, the former presidential Republican presidential candidate has called for and it also follows what Governor Jeb Bush did as governor in Florida. He removed that flag from grounds in Florida and put it in a museum.

This is also significant, though, that it is the white senator from South Carolina who is making this call. Graham has been quietly urging his fellow elected representatives in South Carolina to head in this direction over the last several days. And because he is the sole white senator, he thought it would be perhaps more effective and symbolic to have him be the one to lead this charge. I should mention to you that Senator Tim Scott, he is a Republican -

HARLOW: Right.

JONES: He is the only black senator in Congress and he is a Republican from South Carolina. He has yet to take a public stance in interviews on this. We've reached out to his office to find out what he has to say and we're still waiting to hear back.

Poppy.

HARLOW: It is - it is interesting. In an interview over the weekend on CNN or late last week he did say, look, this is much bigger than the flag. This is not just - just about the flag. But this isn't - this isn't it, right, Athena? It still needs to go through the legislative process, right? You still need two-thirds of both - both chambers?

JONES: Absolutely. There is an uphill battle. There is a lot of support in South Carolina according to recent polls for keeping that flag flying. And in order to make a change, according to a compromise that was reached in the year - in 2000, 15 years ago, to remove that flag from the top of the state capital and place it elsewhere on the ground, there has to be a two-thirds majority of both chambers. And so you do have a Republican representative down there who is calling for - to offer a bill on this, but it's not at all clear that he's going to be able to drum up the support necessary to make that change.

[14:15:05] So it is very important to hear people calling for this flag to be removed, but the math, when it comes to actually getting it done, is going to be a little more difficult.

HARLOW: Right.

JONES: So we'll have to watch. But it's still quite significant.

HARLOW: It's quite significant. An historic move that we're about to see unfold live here on CNN. Of course, we'll carry it live at 4:00 Eastern with our Jake Tapper on "The Lead." He'll have that for us.

Athena Jones, thank you very much.

And also let's turn to the city of Charleston. This city that is trying to heal after last week's brutal massacre. An overflowing crowd packing the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church on Sunday morning. A beautiful ceremony of remembrance, singing, praying for those nine lives taken in the horrifying act of brutality. Hours later, remarkable images as thousands of people took part in a unity chain across a Charleston bridge. For two miles they held hands.

The funerals for some of the victims are scheduled for this week. The body of Emanuel's slain pastor and state senator, Reverend Clementa Pinkney, will lie in state Wednesday at the statehouse in Columbia, South Carolina. He will be buried on Friday.

This as investigators delve into a chilling manifesto on a website registered to the gunman Dylann Roof. Our Alina Machado is live for us this afternoon in Charleston.

Alina, you've spent the entire weekend in the city and it was beautiful to see from afar. I can't imagine how beautiful it was to be there and see it firsthand.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy, it's been an incredibly moving weekend because the outpouring of love and support that this community is showing to the victims, the families of these victims, is truly remarkable. And even though this manifesto has come out, the focus here remains on those victims.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACHADO (voice-over): Lone wolf mass murderer Dylann Roof behind bars this morning awaiting his bail hearing for murder charges set for October.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your age?

DYLANN ROOF: Twenty-one.

MACHADO: This as investigators are looking into a 2,000 word racist manifesto on a website registered to the suspect, written before Roof killed nine people during a Bible study inside Charleston, South Carolina's historic Emanuel AME church. The author writing, he became fixated on the idea of, quote, "black on white" crime after Trayvon Martin's death. His online search lead him to the online propaganda of the Council of Conservative Citizens. There he found, quote, "pages upon pages of these brutal black on white murders." It's not clear what incidents he was referring to.

The manifesto continues, quote, "someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me."

MAYOR JOE RILEY, CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA: We've got to use this heartbreak in the most positive way. How we can be - be better, how we can do more.

MACHADO: In Charleston Sunday, marchers joined hands to form a unity chain in memory of the nine victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only love can drive out hate.

MACHADO: On Sunday morning, church bells rang throughout the historic city. Inside the Emanuel AME Church, the theme was healing, not hate.

REV. NORVEL GOFF SR., 7TH DISTRICT AME CHURCH: We, as a group of people, can come together and pray and work out things that needs to be worked out, to make our community and our state a better place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACHADO: People continue to arriving here at this church, dropping off flowers in memory to honor these nine lives lost here. And it is worth noting, Poppy, that the Council of Conservative Citizens is condemning the killing but they stand behind the inflammatory information and content on their website.

HARLOW: Alina Machado, thank you for the reporting.

Coming up next, President Obama making a point, using a word that so many of us find so offensive. Should he have used it? Should he have censored himself? We'll talk about it with our Don Lemon next.

Also, it is the big, big story right now. Is it the big break they need in this case? DNA from the two escaped killers found, according to a law enforcement source, in a nearby cabin. Are investigators finally closing in?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:23:36] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HARLOW: This just into us here at CNN. Our chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, is the first to report this. A source telling her that Republican presidential hopeful, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham, will call for the removal of the confederate flag from the statehouse grounds. He plans to do this at a news conference at 4:00 Eastern today right alongside South Carolina Republican's Governor Nikki Haley.

The flag has been decried, long known as a symbol for racism and hatred. It is now connected to the gunman who killed nine people senselessly in that Charleston church.

As we speak about racism in this church, you are about to hear President Obama use a word, one that most people consider highly offensive. A word used to recognize a harsh reality of this country's history, and a reality that racism still exists in this country as it appears we have seen so tragically in South Carolina. The president using the n-word during an interview with comedian Marc Maron on his podcast. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC MARON: Racism.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Racism, we are not cured of, clearly. And it's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have - societies don't overnight completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:25:06] HARLOW: "CNN Tonight" anchor Don Lemon joining me now to talk about it.

Don, your reaction to this? Is this about time he said that word?

DON LEMON, ANCHOR, CNN'S "CNN TONIGHT": Uh-huh. Yes, I think so.

HARLOW: Why?

LEMON: I think actually using the word - right, calling someone that word, obviously, and use it - using it in context to provoke conversation or to have a meaningful conversation, to get people to think about it, those are two different things. So when you read a headline that says, the president uses the n-word, he didn't really use the n-word. He discussed how people use that word.

And I think it's about time he said it because I think the president now is - you know, it's his second term. He's getting towards the end of his second term. And I think now he's starting to feel like, you know what, I can talk about these things. I don't have to be the politician that I had to be. And he doesn't have to be so politically correct, right?

HARLOW: But he's also doing it in the context of what has happened in this country.

LEMON: Of what's happening in the country. So it's very important. I've always, and as you know, advocated the use of that word in context, especially if you're reporting on it. In journalism, it's important for people to hear it when it has impact on a society. People don't call each other. They don't say, oh, you're an n-word or, you know, I want to get rid of all the n-words. They say the word.

And I - you know, and I like to use it judiciously. I said it on the earlier broadcast. I don't know if I'll say it on this broadcast. I don't know if I'll say it, you know, on the air. It's just - if I feel like it's important to say it and it's in context to the conversation, I will say it. And I think that's what the president did. That's what he did.

HARLOW: Does it matter if it - you said journalists should say it when they're reporting on the issue.

LEMON: Sure, if they're comfortable saying it.

HARLOW: Does - and I'm not, all right.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: Does it - does it matter if the journalist is African-American or not?

LEMON: No, it does not matter because you're a journalist. Journalists are conveyors of the truth. You're supposed to convey information and give people information. And you - it's not to appease people. It's not to pander to people. It's to have to - ultimately you want and the president would want an informed electorate. And part of informing people is sometimes using words that we find uncomfortable, and that's one word. It's like this flag. That's uncomfortable.

HARLOW: Well, let's talk about the flag.

LEMON: This flag is uncomfortable. But I think it's important just for people to see. We - My experience -

HARLOW: You went and bought this?

LEMON: My experience in buying this flag, I went with my producer to buy it because it felt weird buying it. And I didn't necessarily want to go in and buy it and pay for it but because I'm a journalist and for the public good and so the public could be informed, I think television is about show and tell. This flag is awful to a lot of people. There are African-Americans who won't even touch this flag. They don't want to even be near this flag. I was on with two guests, one white and one black, they wanted nothing to do with it. They didn't even want to be photographed with it. That's how people - that's how uncomfortable this makes people. This is a symbol of hate for a lot of people and that word is a symbol of hate, the n-word, for a lot of people as well.

HARLOW: So we've just learned from our Dana Bash, being the first to report that Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, is going to come out today at 4:00 Eastern with Governor Nikki Haley -

LEMON: It's about time. He should have done it earlier.

HARLOW: And say take that flag down.

LEMON: Yes. I commend him for doing it. I commend the governor for doing it if that's, in fact, what they're doing because it's being reported that. I don't know if the governor - I don't know if they've sent - I think Lindsey Graham's office has sent out a press release. I don't know if the governor has.

But if they indeed do it, it's about time. People can evolve on issues and I give them that. It's time for this to come down. And I know people say it's not a direct comparison, but for me it would be like someone saying, oh, well this is - I have German pride, I have Hitler pride or whatever. I want to be able to display a swastika. No, you should not be able - you can do that in a free society but then what does that get you?

HARLOW: That doesn't mean you should.

LEMON: That doesn't mean you should. And you will be ridiculed for it and ostracized for it as well.

HARLOW: I think it's interesting if you look at some of the polling numbers over this November poll from Winthrop University. It found 73 percent of whites that were polled in the state of South Carolina wanted the flag to remain where it is, 61 percent of blacks wanted it taking down. How do we and that - how do people in that state and this country move forward beyond this fight about the flag but so you don't have numbers like that?

LEMON: You don't always get what you want. You know, not every time - not everything you think is correct. I grew up in the south. I was born in the 1960s. I lived, you know, through racism. I remember when they - my high school was desegregated just a - two years - two or three years before I went to it.

HARLOW: Wow.

LEMON: My parents, not that long after I was born but before I was born, they went to two different high schools. There was a white high school and a black high school. When I was in high school we - we did not have a school-sponsored prom because they didn't want - because of the church in the area and they didn't want the races mixing.

HARLOW: Mixing.

LEMON: The KKK would pass out literature in front of my school, Groom (ph) Road, Baker High School, in Baker, Louisiana. The KKK would pass out literature. My best friend lived two doors from the grand wizard of the KKK. It's real and it hasn't been that long. That was the 1980s.

HARLOW: Yes.

LEMON: So, yes, we have made progress since the '60s, '70s and even the '80s when I was a young person in Louisiana, but there's, as we see from this story -

HARLOW: So much progress.

LEMON: There's a big divide. But there's still - we still have -

HARLOW: So much more to be done.

[14:30:00] LEMON: Yes, we still have so much further to go. And the thing that gets me is that when I was in high school with someone or in college with someone the age of this Dylann Roof, we thought we were making progress. I really think we need to think about hate groups on the Internet.