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Will Confederate Flag Come Down?; Manhunt. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 22, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And within the past few moments, we have learned that Republican Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina also planning to call for the flag to be taken down.

Let's head straight to Capitol Hill, where we find our Athena Jones.

Athena Jones, this is very significant.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Poppy.

It is very significant to have these people calling for the flag to be removed. We know that Senator Graham plans to ask for it to be put into a museum. That echoes what Governor Jeb Bush, governor of Florida, when he was governor, he removed the flag from statehouse grounds, sent it to a museum in Florida.

It's also what the former Republican presidential candidate for 2012, Mitt Romney, has called for, the same thing. But it's notable that Senator Graham and Senator Scott are making this statement. It should give a major boost to the effort to remove the flag.

This has, of course, been a contentious issue for years. It's been flying at the statehouse since 1962. In the year 2000, an agreement was made to remove it from the top of the capitol, place it elsewhere on statehouse grounds.

But to many people, this is a symbol of racism and it's a symbol that Dylann Roof, the shooter in last week's horrific shootings at the church in Charleston, he embraced that flag as well. So, this is a very important development. I should mention, though, that it's not -- saying it doesn't make it so.

HARLOW: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: ... coming and calling for it, they're still going to face an uphill battle when it comes to the math in the state legislature, where they need, we understand, two-thirds of both chambers to bring that flag down, to make a change to that compromise that was reached before.

And we have seen some recent polling that shows a lot of support for flying the flag in South Carolina, for flying the Confederate Flag. HARLOW: Right.

JONES: But this is still an important step and so we will be watching closely to see what they say at 4:00 and then what happens afterwards.

HARLOW: Yes, and that polling obviously done before the church massacre, Athena. I mean, do you get the sense that that has really shifted things, and they are going to get the votes they need?

JONES: It certainly seems to be what is the driving force now. It's reignited this battle to bring this battle flag down.

But I should tell you that, from our own reporting, Nia-Malika Henderson, my colleague, who did a deep dive into this issue, said that there is a Republican state representative who plans to offer a bill to make this change to remove it.

HARLOW: Yes. Yes.

JONES: But even he -- he can't say that he will be able to drum up all the support he needs.

Two-thirds, a supermajority is a lot -- is a lot -- is a big majority.

HARLOW: Yes.

JONES: So, this is just the beginning, but it's still quite significant, after all this time, to see so many top elected officials in South Carolina, all Republicans, stepping up and saying it's time to remove this symbol, this racist symbol that many -- that offends many -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Athena Jones, thank you for the reporting. We're going to have much more on that with her colleague Nia-Malika Henderson talking about it a little later this hour. Thank you, Athena.

More breaking news. Police may be closing in on two escaped killers, narrowing the search area after a new sighting was just backed up by DNA evidence, we are told, by a law enforcement source.

There were fears that David Sweat and Richard Matt may have gotten away as far as Canada or even Mexico, but now 17 days into the hunt, well, it appears that they may be pretty close from the prison where they escaped from, incredibly, maybe just a day's walk.

We're talking about 20 miles potentially. A source close to the investigation telling CNN their DNA has been found inside of a camp cabin here in the densely wooded area of Owls Head. It's about 20 miles west of the prison in Upstate New York where they escaped.

Let's go straight to CNN's Boris Sanchez. He's live for us in Owls Head.

Boris, first of all, welcome to CNN, my friend. I got to meet you last week, but this is your first time on air with us. So, welcome. We're glad you're here. BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks so much, Poppy.

Now, I got to tell you, out of more than 2,000 leads in this case, this is the biggest so far, DNA discovered inside a cabin that was broken into over the weekend. Some personal items were found inside that cabin that have DNA that belong to Richard Matt and David Sweat. But investigators have not revealed specifically what those items are.

We are still working to find that out. Now, the break-in coincides with an eyewitness that someone was running from the cabin into the woods. Now, this is an area where it's not very populated. Most of these cabins house hunters or skiers that come during the winter. Now, in the summer, most of them are empty.

So, investigators are asking anyone that owns a cabin out here to check them out and make sure there is nothing out of place. If there is, you should call the authorities right away.

At a press conference this afternoon, they said no lead was too small.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: We ask the public to remain on alert, take any necessary safety precautions, and remain vigilant about reporting anything, anything that is out of the ordinary.

This is especially true of seasonal camp owners that are -- now that the summer season is here, if you return to your camp, and anything is out of place, call 911 immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Considering these men have been on the run for 17 days, officials were expecting them to make a desperate move for resources, either breaking into a car or breaking into a home. Now investigators hope this is their smoking gun that this will lead them to catching these escapees -- Poppy.

HARLOW: So, Boris, the fact that they are -- could be, I should say, so close to the prison, is that leading investigators to believe that, frankly, there may not have been a plan B, the fact that Joyce Mitchell did not show up to pick them up, as they -- had been planned, that there was no plan B and they have been lying pretty low pretty close from to where they escaped from?

[15:05:17]

SANCHEZ: That's what investigators believe.

It seems that it's only 20 miles away from Clinton Correctional Facility. As you said earlier, the fears were that they may be in Mexico by now. But, obviously, with this new lead coming in yesterday, a very clear indication that they may be in this area.

HARLOW: And what about the residents there? Because I know the law enforcement officials have said, look, what we have seen so far suggests that they need provisions and that they are desperate.

And let's remember these are two convicted cold-blooded murderers. How do people on the ground there feel?

SANCHEZ: They are clearly concerned.

Investigators have told them to stay inside and not really go outside unless they absolutely have to, also to lock your doors. And, again, because this area is mostly populated by people coming in, in the winter, a lot of these residences are empty.

So, if you own property out here, it's probably a good idea to come check it out and make sure there is nothing out of place. If there is, again, please call the authorities.

HARLOW: Boris Sanchez reporting for us live in Owls Head, thank you very much.

Let's talk more about this now with Matthew Fogg. He's a retired chief deputy for the U.S. Marshals Service.

Matthew, thank you for being with us.

Look, this lead that -- the lead that -- they believe that is a DNA match in the cabin. I think the biggest question is, is there any way to know how long ago they left that cabin, if indeed they were there?

MATTHEW FOGG, FORMER CHIEF DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: Right.

I'm not if technically if they can determine from the DNA how long ago the DNA was left. Put it that way. The bottom line, though, if that is in fact -- if it is in fact -- I know some sources have said that it's -- that is what it was, but the police, I don't think they have come out and made a definitive response that that is what it was.

But the bottom line is, if that is in fact true, we know they came to that cabin if it's true. So, but the bottom line is, how long ago? I have always from the beginning is said two things. If they didn't get out of Dodge, so to speak, then they still were in the area. But I believe there was in someplace where they had to have food and water, because they had so much concentrated resources in that area.

Somebody would have spotted them way before now. And so it seemed like to me they were somewhere where they had food and water provisions for them that they could have laid low, like the way they did.

HARLOW: Yes.

Well, let me -- that brings me to this. Our Deborah Feyerick -- once breaking news on this -- and reporting just into us here at CNN, that a law enforcement source telling her that New York State Police detectives are combing right now through guest registries from hotels near that prison in Dannemora, New York. They are looking for anyone who knew either Richard Matt or David Sweat who may have stayed in the area for the last six to eight months. So that goes along with what you're saying, that they are believing

now they may have had some help.

FOGG: That's right. And that's what I -- I have said all along.

And even that person that was seen running from the location, that could have been somebody. Again, it could have even been a decoy. They could have been gone a long time ago and then just a decoy or somebody. We just don't know.

But the bottom line is, as I have always said, with so much police presence there, someone would have seen if they had been out there in the woods just roaming around trying to find something to eat, trying to find water, all the necessities they needed. Somebody would have spotted them.

So, for them to come out now and for somebody to be saying, OK, we have got DNA at this location, again, the crucial piece is, how long ago was that DNA left and the fact is, whose cabin? And, as I said, we say it's a break-in.

So, I'm just not sure if we -- I know they're concentrating. We're doing a crunch -- what we call a crunch close-in, where they begin to close in all resources into that spot, but, again, we're just not 100 percent sure.

HARLOW: It is shocking, I think, to a lot of people that they could be on the lam for 17 days.

SEXTON: Right.

HARLOW: The fact that over the weekend, so many resources moved 300 miles southwest of there to look around Friendship, New York, right on the state line with Pennsylvania, does that hurt the efforts at all, that you have got to remobilize more resources back up now right near the prison?

FOGG: No, I'm not -- I don't think so, not for sure, because I have done so many of these.

And we did a lot of these things. And we had to be -- that's the nature of this search. You have your main search engines that they can move at the drop of a dime. Now, as you begin to bring in more resources, you begin to crunch and close in that location, but, man, we would jump on a plane. We would get a call in the middle of the night, fugitives seen over here, let's go. And we are rolling and we're getting to a spot. That's how our contingency plans work.

HARLOW: Thank you very much for your expertise. We appreciate you being with us, as always. Matthew Fogg, thank you.

FOGG: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Coming up next on our program, more on our breaking news on the fate of the flag, of the Confederate Flag in the state of South Carolina. The state's governor, Nikki Haley, also Republican presidential candidate Senator Lindsey Graham expected to make a major announcement in less than an hour's time about the future of the Confederate Flag in their state. We will bring that to you live as soon as it happens.

Also, other 2016 presidential candidates are weighing in -- what they say should happen to this flag next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:23]

HARLOW: Major development now in South Carolina concerning the Confederate Flag that flies on the grounds of the state capitol.

Our Dana Bash reporting, the first to report that at the top of the hour, Senator Lindsey Graham will join South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley in calling for that controversial flag to be removed and possibly placed into a museum instead.

Bakari Sellers joins now. He's a former South Carolina state representative. He's also now a CNN contributor. He joins us from Columbia, South Carolina.

Thank you for being with me, sir.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you having me, Ms. Harlow.

HARLOW: Of course.

Your reaction to the news of what we're expecting to hear from Senator Lindsey Graham and Governor Nikki Haley in less than an hour's time?

[15:15:03]

SELLERS: Well, I'm cautiously optimistic.

There's been a long struggle in South Carolina for various civil rights and various freedoms. In 2000, my father allowed me to play a small role in the march beside him to take that flag off the top of the statehouse. And I would tell you that there would be so much joy if that flag does come down.

I think a lot of times, viewers don't really understand what that means. There's a generation of people in South Carolina who have felt the sting of water hoses against their back. They have -- they lied on jailhouse floors just for sitting in for where they believed.

They smelt the gun smoke. Civil rights is not something that we have to read in a history book here in South Carolina. It's something we live. And so we will overflow with joy if that symbol is removed.

HARLOW: I want you to listen to part of what we all heard yesterday morning, the service at the Mother Emanuel Church. Listen to part of the sermon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REV. NORVEL GOFF, AME CHURCH: Then, finally, I want to say thank you to law enforcement.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

GOFF: I have got no problem in doing that.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

GOFF: I want to thank them. I want to thank them. I want to thank -- oh, yes. I want to thank law enforcement and I want to thank the chief of police of the city of Charleston and our neighboring community for working together to bring about a safer place, not just for some of us, but for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Bakari, that really struck me yesterday, because so much of the conversation about race in this country over the last year has also been about the relationship between some police departments and minorities in this country. He made a clear and conscious choice to praise law enforcement. What do you make of that?

SELLERS: Well, I almost started clapping with you during the break. I got a chance to hear Reverend Goff's sermon yesterday.

But Chief of Police Mark -- I mean, Chief of SLED Mark Keel did an amazing job. Chief Mullen down in Charleston did an amazing job. The sheriff in Charleston County, all of those neighboring law enforcement, did an amazing job.

We kind of juxtapose that against the fact that this young terrorist, racist killer is in a cell next to officer Slager from the North Charleston Police Department. Those are the facts, those are realities that we live in.

But when law enforcement does an amazing job, like they did this week, when they reinforce that belief that this is about the community, not just a piece of it or a part of it, but the whole community, you have to embrace it. You have to say thank you.

We have always learned, especially in the black church, that the two most powerful words in the English dictionary are the words thank you. And I was really happy that Reverend Goff took a moment just to thank those who meant so much to us this week.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely; $167,000 has been raised so far for the church, for the families there, and other fund-raising, $50,000 for Reverend Clementa Pinckney.

One of our producers on the ground there in Charleston this week overheard someone saying: "We are not black. We are not white. We are Charleston."

Tell me about the unity you are seeing. SELLERS: Well, the unity has just been amazing.

I think that people were expecting us in South Carolina to do something different, well, they just don't know who we are. We, unfortunately, have been used to this type of tragedy in our great state, but we have also been very resilient.

Clementa Pinckney, my friend, and those eight others, they would not expect anything else but for us to be resilient and stand together. Whether or not it was Stephen Colbert, or whether or not it was just the average man on the street, we joined hands yesterday. We join hands this week. And we will see justice through. But I think that this is what our country was built upon.

And my goal, just like many others who you saw, is to make this a more perfect union.

HARLOW: Always striving for that.

One of our other colleagues said to us, it is just ironic, the fact that you have this shooter who wanted to start a race war and exactly the opposite has happened. What's your feeling on that?

SELLERS: Well, I was just thinking and probably will tweet it later, but I hope someone lets Dylann Roof know that that flag will come down.

I hope he watches that march and that rally on a loop in his cell, because his goal, regardless of what the FBI says or got wrong, in my opinion, but his goal was to strike terror in the hearts of African- Americans throughout churches in this country. And he failed.

He failed royally. The state is stepping forward. And, you know, when people do good things, you have to applaud them. So, for Lindsey Graham, Tim Scott, Nikki Haley to join the others who have been calling for this for their entire life, simply, again, another thank you. Thank you for your courage and strength in leading our state forward.

[15:20:10]

HARLOW: Bakari Sellers, thank you for coming on the program.

SELLERS: Thank you for having me.

HARLOW: Coming up next, the controversy over the Confederate Flag is going way beyond South Carolina, the issue already being put to the 2016 candidates. Hear what they say straight ahead.

Also, search crews trying to find these two escaped murderers now have a major clue. We're talking about a DNA match. Where was it and how could it help them finally hunt these two men down? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. At the top of the hour, amid growing outcry, South Carolina Governor

Nikki Haley will hold a press conference, and, according to local media, she will call for the removal of the Confederate Flag from the statehouse grounds.

[15:25:03]

Also, just a short time ago, our Dana Bash was the first to report that Republican presidential candidate and South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham will join her in that call, Graham's colleague Republican Senator Tim Scott also now calling for the flag to come down.

This issue has been a tricky one for some presidential hopefuls in the wake of the Charleston church mass shooting. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't know that issue. It's an issue that South Carolina needs to deal with and, again, I don't know all the complexities of how that was decided.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: The people of South Carolina reached an agreement of what should be done down there, and I'm sure they are going to have a lot more discussions.

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: Those are decisions best made at the state level.

GEORGE PATAKI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's a decision for the people of South Carolina.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The problems we have in South Carolina and throughout the world are not because of the movie or symbols. It's because what people's -- what is in people's hearts.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm very confident that they are going to make the right choice for the people of South Carolina in a way that all of their people are comfortable with. They have shown a capacity to be able to do that in the past.

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For those of us running for president, everyone is being baited with this question, as if somehow that has anything whatsoever to do with running for president. And my position is, it most certainly does not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Jeb Bush also weighing in, saying, in Florida, he had the flag placed in a museum.

Former presidential hopeful Mitt Romney adding, "It is time for the flag to be removed to honor the victims."

And CNN political commentator Buck Sexton is with me here in New York. He also thinks it should be removed.

Thank you for being here.

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

HARLOW: I appreciate it, sir.

Let's begin here, just the move, the news that is about to come at the top of the hour. Nikki Haley, Senator Lindsey Graham, now Tim Scott, they're going to call for it to be taken down, it's being reported. Is it the right call?

SEXTON: I think it's the right call.

I think that a number of GOP candidates have been evolving on this issue. And when you look at -- for example, Mitt Romney was actually very strongly in favor...

HARLOW: He tweeted that.

SEXTON: Even before then, stretching back to when he was GOP -- the GOP nominee. He thought that this should have been the case for some time.

And so the GOP has been evolving on this issue. And, quite honestly, as we see in South Carolina, they moved it from flying above the state capitol to being at a memorial on state capitol grounds. There has been a process there as well.

I think that this is a big debate, a discussion about symbolism. In the aftermath of what happened, in the aftermath of nine of our fellow Americans, black Americans, targeted for racist reasons at this church, the symbolism here seems to me pretty clear. The flag should come down.

As a matter of legality, though, and process, it's up to the state of South Carolina to decide this. But if you are asking me, yes, I think it should come down.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: They are going to need to get two-thirds of both chambers. So, there is growing momentum. We will see if they can get the votes.

It's interesting, if you think back to John McCain, John McCain in 2000 flip-flopping on this, calling it at one point a symbol of racism, at another point a symbol of heritage, later saying that he was worried that if he answered honestly, he would not win the South Carolina primary.

Do you think that, this time around, where this country is right now, that is a concern for candidates?

SEXTON: No, I think the politics of it will be different this time around. I think the statements you have seen from many of the GOP contenders

shows that there is an expectation now, because of what has happened in Charleston, that there will be a different outcome, or rather the outcome here will be that this -- that the flag will, in fact, come down.

I think that some of them don't want to be the first one to say it, but I think they have all positioned themselves such that when the decision is made by South Carolina, they will say, well, yes, we expected them to do the right thing, and we thought this was the right thing.

But no one wants to be sort of the first one to the...

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: ... on this issue.

HARLOW: Well, Lindsey Graham is going to be.

SEXTON: Well, Lindsey Graham will be. I mean of the contenders who have already spoken about it before this press conference.

HARLOW: Got it. Got it.

SEXTON: They don't want to be the first one to say it.

HARLOW: So, we played a little bit about what another presidential candidate, former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, had to say.

I want to read you part of this transcript from "Meet the Press" on Sunday. He started by saying -- quote -- "I think it's still not an issue for a person running for president." He went on to say, "But for those of us running for president, everyone is being baited with this question, as if somehow that has anything to do whatsoever with running for president."

He went on to say he personally would not display it anywhere.

Is he right? Are they being baited? And is it not something that a president should talk about?

SEXTON: Well, I think it's absolutely fair territory. I think it's a fair question to be asked in this context. I think it's fair for people to wonder what the GOP contenders think on this issue.

And I think it will probably be a moot point very soon, because I do believe -- and we're going to hear from this press conference soon -- that it will in fact be coming down. But, also, the idea that you have presidential contenders of either party who are wading into an area that is sort of fraught with peril, because to try to parse it, to talk about the history of this and the symbolism of it is, divorced from the racist symbolism of it, is something that is very difficult to do in a sound bite culture, very difficult for the GOP to pull off without people on the other side of the aisle saying, look, they are being weak-kneed on this. HARLOW: Sure.

SEXTON: And I think there has been some of it.

There has been some weak knees with the GOP, people who clearly knew that in their heart they believe that this should come down, this should happen, but for political reasons, they didn't do it. But then again, some people are against gay marriage before they are for gay marriage running for president.

HARLOW: Representative Doug Brannon of South Carolina, who is going to introduce that bill to take it down, told me on our show last night: I should have done this sooner, and I didn't do my job.

And he's now calling for it to come down as well, saying he said he felt it in his heart and didn't do it before.

But let me ask you about the Democrats. Right? So are we demanding more of the Republicans than we are of the Democrats on this issue, or are we just assuming something?

SEXTON: Yes, I think -- I think so.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Because I don't think Hillary Clinton has directly addressed it. She gave that big speech this weekend in South Carolina.

SEXTON: I believe she may have said something back in 2007.