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HBO to Air Documentary on Jordan Davis Death; Should Polygamy Become a Right; Bill De Blasio Looks to Cut N.Y. City Ties to Donald Trump; Grateful Dead Calls It Quits. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired July 03, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:14] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: So what is the difference between growing up, as you did, as a black man in this country versus current day, 2015?

DAVIS: Growing up in New York, we knew the policemen by their names. They were, indeed, there to protect and serve, you know. And the officers, if you did a little something that you had to get slapped on your wrist, they would take you home to your mother and father and tell your mom and dad about that. You were allowed to grow up as a kid and not being shot in the back and not shot for no reason at all. You had to do something pretty heinous to get shot by a policeman back in those days. And I'm pretty old, I guess.

But now I see that and it doesn't matter. Everything is either we're going to lock you up and put you in private prisons and cause mass incarcerations in this country or, if we're not going to lock you up, we're going to shoot you dead.

BALDWIN: Have you ever talked to -- back to your son's case and Michael Dunn, who is locked away now, have you ever met him or spoken to him? If you were to speak to him, final question, what would you want to say?

DAVIS: We tried to speak him and we were not able to speak to him. His parents have never even said, well, I'm sorry for your loss. Michael Dunn has never apologized for killing my son.

And if I had a chance to speak to Michael Dunn, I'd say, always think about this, Mr. Dunn, there was another gentleman there that was going to park in that space. He decided not to because he didn't want to hear the loud music so he parked in another space. He stood his ground. Michael Dunn, you stood your ground and killed my son and basically ended my son's life and you ended your life. Had you done what the other gentleman did, you would have gone home to your family just like he did. Now you get to spend the rest of your life in prison.

So, somehow, some way, people in America have to make that decision whether to use your weapon when it doesn't call for a weapon because Stand Your Ground will not protect you when you're killing innocent victims in this country.

BALDWIN: Ron Davis, let me remind everyone, your film, "3 1/2 Minutes, 10 Bullets." Thank you so much.

DAVIS: Thank you. My pleasure, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, this man in Montana applied for his marriage license this week. The only issue, this would be wife number two. You see, he wants to be legally married to two women at the same time. And he says it's all about marriage equality. He'll join me next to explain.

Plus, the heart-wrenching moment a judge in this courtroom recognized the suspect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: I'm sorry to see you here.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: I always wondered what happened to you, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my goodness.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: This was the nicest kid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:36:50] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's talk marriage. Because the right to marry is a, quote, unquote, "fundamental right." And with those words, same-sex marriage became legal in all 50 states. But should that so-called fundamental right go further?

My next guest is a polygamist. He's already legally married to one woman and now he wants to legally marry another woman, saying the basis for this ruling for same-sex couples is about inclusion and legal legitimacy for all consenting adults. So why not for polygamists as well? This is his argument.

Joining me is Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney and HLN legal analyst; and Nathan Collier, a polygamist featured in the TV show "Sister Wives."

Welcome to both of you.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Hello, Brooke. Good afternoon.

BALDWIN: Good afternoon.

Nathan, to you first.

Just for our viewers, on background, you legally married your wife, Victoria, in 2000. You had only what you called a spiritual ceremony with your second wife, Christine, in 2007. I want you to explain to us why you think the Supreme Court same-sex marriage ruling would apply to your case.

NATHAN COLLIER, POLYGAMIST: I'm certainly not qualified to interpret the Marriage Equality Act myself. I'm going on Justice Roberts own words where he stated that denying a polygamist the same rights would disrespect us and subordinate us.

BALDWIN: Can you take it a step further and tell me why it should be legal in general in the U.S.?

COLLIER: Well, you know, we're consenting adults and, really, that's where the conversation should stop right there. We're three consenting adults.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me go to the ruling. This is Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy writing the majority decision and I want you to respond to this. He wrote, "No union is more profound than marriage for it embodies the highest ideals of love and fidelity and devotion, sacrifice and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than they once were."

He mentions fidelity and faithfulness here. And again, two people. How would you argue for three?

COLLIER: Well, it is two people. My marriage with Vicky is completely separate from my marriage with Christine. Each marriage is its own unique marriage and we're brought together.

BALDWIN: OK.

COLLIER: We're not seeking a group marriage at this time for Vicky to be married to Christine. My marriage to Christine is totally separate from Vicky.

BALDWIN: If I'm hearing you correctly, you want essentially two marriages, two wives, separately, yes?

COLLIER: Correct.

BALDWIN: All right. So I looked to the polls because when we were talking about same-sex marriage, you know, we have now reached this point where the majority of Americans support that. But when you look at polygamy and polls in the U.S., 16 percent of Americans, 16 percent, find your lifestyle morally acceptable. So 16 percent. Can you explain to the rest of the country why this sort of lifestyle should be acceptable?

[13:40:10] COLLIER: Well, I think those poll numbers are low -- well, first off, luckily, we don't live under a theocracy, anyway. Secondly, those poll numbers are low largely because people don't have the experience with polygamists. They lead secretive lives because they are afraid of the government and of the police so they kind of stay living in the shadows. So the only time you really hear anything on polygamy is when somebody has used it to mask greater evils and then it makes the evening news. And I think that that kind of public opinion.

BALDWIN: I'm not familiar with polygamists, and I wanted you to explain, why do you want to have more than one spouse at the same time? How can you love more than one person at the same time?

COLLIER: It's no different from loving more than one child at the same time or loving more than one relative at the same time. Our relationships are separate and different.

BALDWIN: OK. Nathan, I'm going to hit pause on this conversation and turn to my colleague, Joey Jackson, on the legality of all of this.

And I'm trying to understand his argument for the legality of polygamy based on the ruling last week with SCOTUS. Would that fly?

JACKSON: It would not. I don't want to make judgments about him but from a legal perspective, it does not apply at all. It's clever to say that it's one marriage separate from the other. However, the Supreme Court ruling last week does not bring any type, in my view, notwithstanding what was said in the dissent, the plurality of marriage.

BALDWIN: It's out there. I've heard that now.

JACKSON: It's out there. But the decision itself gives no legal authority to that. It was a two-prong decision and marriage is as between two people.

BALDWIN: Two people.

JACKSON: That's the essence of it. Those two people can be of same genders, of different genders, and it's predicated upon, number one, marriage being a fundamental right to be enjoyed by two consenting adults and people who want to be married and, number two, to give equal protection to all people regardless of whether it's male on male, female on female, but does not transcend that and speak to the issue of having multiple wives. In fact, it's, of course, a felony in most states. Bigamy, of courts, statutes are in most states and felony in some states and misdemeanors in other states.

BALDWIN: I'm sure that's why he's saying not a lot of people know polygamists.

JACKSON: Right.

BALDWIN: And people are having to be secretive because it's not legal.

Nathan, you heard Joey saying, yes, perhaps, it's a clever interpretation but it really may not fly. I just want you to have, you know, the final moments, what more would you like to tell the country here?

COLLIER: You know, obviously, Chief Justice Roberts saw it differently as he did in this dissent. And just because it's against the law now, doesn't make it immoral or bad or wrong. There's a lot of things against the law. Interracial marriage was against the law. The only way that was ever changed was because people were willing to come forward and sacrifice and bring that change. That's what we're trying to do now. You mentioned equal protection. That's exactly what I'm trying to give my wife Christine. Right now, she has no equal protection because there's no legal actions there is to offer her that protection.

JACKSON: And briefly, Brooke, Loving versus Virginia was the case that spoke to interracial marriage, 1967. It was, as Nathan says, illegal. Under equal protection grounds it became legal. There might be a day and time for polygamy to be recognized in this country. This Supreme Court ruling does not at all address that. And now, according to the Supreme Court, would not be the time based upon the statute itself. But perhaps one day, in moving forward, it will be.

BALDWIN: Joey Jackson, Nathan Collier, thank you both very much.

JACKSON: Thank you, Brooke.

COLLIER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Donald Trump facing now a new challenge. This one from the liberal mayor of New York. Hear what Bill de Blasio is threatening to do in his city, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:48:40] BALDWIN: As to Donald Trump's derogatory remarks regarding Mexicans, business partners cut ties with him every day this week, Macy's, NBCUniversal, Univision. And now in the place that he and his millions call home, the mayor here, Bill de Blasio, announced they will be reviewing the city's contracts with Donald Trump. Saying, quote, "Donald Trump's comments were disgusting and offensive, and his hateful language has no place in our city. Trump's comments do not represent the values of inclusion and openness that define us as New Yorkers."

Let's talk about this with CNN political reporter, M.J. Lee; and CNN political commentator, Errol Louis.

Great to have you both here.

M.J., to you first.

I think it's important -- listen, you think of Trump and the Trump Tower and the hotels right here at Central Park and Soho. But what else? What kind of Trump presence is there in New York and what kind of money?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Right. I think it's important to keep in mind, when you think about the whole Donald Trump empire, there is so much money tied up in his real estate properties and his hotel developments. And when you think about the fact that he has cut ties, or he says he has cut ties with NBC and Macy's -- they say otherwise -- when you think about NBC and Macy's and how much money is involved there, that's changed when you look at -- (CROSSTALK)

[14:50:] LEE: Right, in the context of how much money he has tied up in these other properties. We are hearing rumblings of people wanting to boycott using his hotels and developments, and we don't know how the dominos are going to fall. I was talking to someone in Trump's inner circle yesterday and the thing that Trump takes most seriously is losing his NBC deal. He thought that, I would do the 2016 for a bit and then I'll always go back and be the host of "The Apprentice," and that's the thing that has really helped him, you know, brand himself and create this image of this business leader and boardroom CEO. And now he doesn't have that anymore.

BALDWIN: So it's NBC.

But with regard to Bill de Blasio taking a good long look at these contracts, as a New Yorker, and you're looking at this pretty liberal mayor, right, in New York City taking on -- Donald Trump, he's a New York staple. Yes, he's a conservative and a billionaire, but he's a New York staple. What do you make of Bill de Blasio doing that?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, one thing worth pointing out -- and you were showing footage in the background -- Donald Trump has done a number of quasi-philanthropic things for the city. There's a skating rink and carousel. They fell to disrepair and weren't around for a while and, with great bombast, as is his style, he stepped in and said, I'm going to make it work, and he has. He did the same thing with a golf course that recently opened. Some people have questions about the pricing of it and so forth. And in a number of cases, he's taken failed projects or ailing projects and brought them back to life.

For the mayor to take them on is absolutely politically of no surprise whatsoever. This mayor, Bill de Blasio, a progressive, as you point out, he ran on a program of inclusion progressive values of turning the page on 12 years in which we had a billionaire as a mayor of the city. He's supposed to be fighting for the little guy, for the people in the neighborhoods, for the people who don't have a lot of bombast, wealth and fame. So Donald Trump becomes a natural target. Will he actually be able to break contracts that the city has signed for Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yes, how difficult would that be, Errol?

LOUIS: I would be very surprised if there were contracts that were contracts that were somehow so iron-clad that the city couldn't get out of them. I'd also be surprised if the city wanted to get out of them. When you give it a really hard look, the projects that he's done for the city have pretty much all worked out. And I think the public is going to want and require a real serious reason for breaking those contracts.

But Donald Trump is going into a place that we haven't seen before. He's never been willing to pass up millions of dollars in support of his particular political views. Frankly, I didn't know he had it in him. He's talked a lot. He hasn't really put stuff on the line when it came to advancing his political views. Now he has. So we're in unchartered territory about where this is going to all end up.

BALDWIN: We're going to leave it.

Errol Louis and M.J. Lee, thank you.

LEE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up here, the Grateful Dead playing their final shows this weekend at Chicago's Soldier Field after 50 years. Hear from some of the Dead's founding members, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:57:24] BALDWIN: Bertha, Franklin's Tower, anyone? The Fourth of July here this weekend will especially reflective for deadheads. The legendary Grateful Dead is saying good-bye. This weekend marks the band's 50th anniversary and they've chosen to end it with three shows at Chicago's Soldier Field, the same place the entire band played its last show together 20 years ago, shortly before Jerry Garcia passed away. In the words of Bob Weir, "It will be a timeless moment."

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(SINGING)

BOB WEIR, GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: Playing a 50th year, it's more than overwhelming. These are the biggest gig that we've ever done.

(SINGING)

WEIR: In the first 30 years of our bandness, our togetherness, we influenced huge amounts of people. Basically, we were a cultural revolution. Society had never seen anything like the Grateful Dead before.

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: There's a little bit of jazz, a little bit of southern rock, a little bit of blue grass, a little bit of folk, a little bit of psychedelic rock, a little bit of country, a little bit of blues.

And I think that's why people are coming from all over because it's really there, the great American song.

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: We came up with our own book of standards. Really, it's just music and that's sort of the magic of American music to begin with, is the blending of music from different continents coming together. (SINGING)

PHIL LESH, GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: We are the music. And our personalities as such really ceased to exist at all. We've been so zoomed into the greatest personality of the group mind.

MICKEY HART, GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: It's a feeling and what you get from that feeling and what you do with that feeling. It's not just playing music and clapping and having a good time. But it makes you feel a certain kind of love.

UNIDENTIFIED GRATEFUL DEAD BAND MEMBER: And that rainbow people talked about in California, at the end of the first set of the first show, I mean, that was Jerry. Jerry's rainbow wasn't waning.

WEIR: Jerry was way more than just a musician. It was a total humanitarian. I do miss his energy but I don't -- I mean, it's not on the sadness that I miss him. I miss his energy and I miss his love of life and I miss the way that he communicated with people very succinctly and clearly. And his musicianship, it goes without saying, was incredible.

(SINGING)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: We truck on. Hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.