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Historic Floods Hit South Carolina; Oregon School Shooting: 16- Year-Old Victim Upgraded to Fair Condition; Was Hospital Bombing a War Crime?; Should Teachers Carry Guns; Mayor de Blasio on Solving Income Inequality. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 04, 2015 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:01:51] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. It is 6:00 Eastern, 3:00 p.m. Pacific. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you from New York.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HARLOW: We begin with breaking news.

Severe weather in the Carolinas, sudden rush of high water that is not only causing tremendous damage, but it is also taking lives. The hardest hit area right now were triangle between Charleston, Columbia and Georgetown, South Carolina. Two separate weather storms, one of them a hurricane crashed together dumping two feet of rain on a part of the state called the Low Country. The impact of the disaster reaches far outside of South Carolina.

You are looking at live pictures right now. What you see is in part parts of I-95. There is literally nothing moving in one direction. A 70-plus mile stretch is closed down. Parts of I-95 are deep under water. It is not safe.

And the governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, issuing a press conference just a short time ago. Her message to the people of South Carolina -- very, very straightforward -- stay home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Where you see this deep water it's got bacteria in it. So, stay inside and don't get in there. We've seen areas of the interstate that are right now clear, but there will be a patch where it goes and gets real deep.

You're going to have to turn around. It's not worth doing it. We are in the process of closing all of the interstates around the Columbia area. That is changing literally as we go. It is not good to get outside. You will see. We are going to have another meeting and conference call at 5:00. I will be encouraging county offices to close tomorrow, which automatically we're going to suggest schools close. And the main reason for that is this is not going to clear up until at least Tuesday or Wednesday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It will not clear up until Tuesday or Wednesday. Look at those images from Charleston, South Carolina, low-lying Charleston. It is hard to tell where the road ends and the floods and the flood rivers begin. Forecasters say heaviest rain has moved to the northwest, but that Charleston could still several more inches of rain today and tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA WILLIAMS, ESCAPED FLOOD WATERS: We have lost everything. What I got on my body is what we have, pretty much everybody down that hill there has lost everything this morning, vehicles, clothes, our everything. But the best thing is that we still have our lives. We still have our lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely.

Boris Sanchez is live for us in Georgetown.

You look at that and you look at her saying, at least we have our lives because there have been deaths already because of this flooding.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Poppy. We know of at least five weather-related traffic fatalities between the Carolinas over the last several days. As a matter of fact, we just confirmed moments ago with the Office of Emergency Management that about 15 minutes from here, there is a vehicle submerged on the highway and we believe there may be people inside. So, obviously, the danger still high here in this area especially here in Georgetown, an area that's surrounded by bodies of water.

We have seen the water come rising from an inlet over here. It is also difficult to drive in this area because so many roads are scattered with debris and they have damage to them.

[18:05:04] We actually spoke with a veterinarian who was trying to get into Georgetown earlier to an animal hospital just down a street from us, and she was trying to rescue an animal that had been left inside a hospital. She talked to us about the trouble she had trying to get in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERI DUNCAN, HARBORWALK VETERINARY HOSPITAL: I think God was looking out for us because it actually did not get up high enough to damage much. So -- but it is very stressful that your whole business and livelihood. Thank God I didn't have animals here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Now, fortunately, she got help from a gentleman that runs a water extraction business here. You can see some of the businesses here, you see the high water mark is. They've all been flooded. He was here trying to get water out of some of these businesses and he rushed to the animal hospital when she gave him a call to try to help. He was lamenting how he couldn't get to the animals faster.

Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: How much water have you pumped out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we are at 1,000 gallons and we're not even touched the top of it.

SANCHEZ: You can hear the animals?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, we can hear the cats in the back. I don't want to walk in the water because we don't know if the power is still on or anything. So, we're just pumping.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: That was a few hours ago. The good news is they were able to pump out 11,000 gallons of water from that anima hospital and save a cat named Tink (ph). She's doing OK. So, things are relatively calm right now.

And again, you can see behind me, the water has receded, but because this is kind of geographically a bucket, water is just going to keep flooding in as it keeps raining today, Poppy.

HARLOW: Wow. Thank you very much, Boris Sanchez. Appreciate the reporting.

I do want to go to Tom Sater at the CNN severe weather center, just for what people are still supposed to expect.

Because we just heard the governor of South Carolina, Nikki Haley, say, look, this is going to go on until Tuesday or Wednesday.

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, I think the rain, Poppy, is going to continue at least for a good 24 hours. The problems, the rivers are going to continue to rise for several more days. Now, my big fear was and the last time that we had a little chat was that some of the water treatment plants have been submerged and, of course, with that, a breach of fresh water.

The mayor of Columbia just a little while ago issued a boil water advisory. I believe that is the first of many communities that have been completely submerged.

The rain totals from the last three days more than just a one day rainfall record, a two-day rainfall record, the greatest three-day rainfall record, the greatest rain for any day in the month of October or any month. This is a one in 1000 year event. Purple is easily 10 to 20 inches, which is inundating most of South Carolina and it's now getting into areas of North Carolina.

This was Joaquin. Remember when it was a category 4 over Bermuda last Wednesday, the forecast wanted to carry that into the Carolinas after this rainfall. All of the moisture that is spinning in South Carolina is actually a field of moisture that is coming off the rear quadrant of our hurricane.

This now is a 36-hour radar. Georgetown, which is south of Myrtle Beach, completely submerged. They have been pumping water back in the ocean, but high tide is every six hours, 2:00 was the last one. It comes in again at 8:00 on shore. It will try to push it back on shore.

Flash flood warnings, numerous rescues and evacuations continue to take place and that will continue into the outer banks as another six to ten inches is possible as now our moisture field continues to flow across the northern counties. This is going to go on for a couple of days at least, Poppy, with the rivers continuing to rise.

HARLOW: No relief in site. It has been raining there for two weeks now.

All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I also want to give you an update on the story we have been tracking very closely within the last hour.

The U.S. Coast Guard confirms a large debris field has been located near the last known location of that cargo ship you see there on your screen. The ship's name El Faro, it went missing on Thursday when it sailed right into Hurricane Joaquin. During a routine trip from Florida to Puerto Rico, the coast guard sent out a tweet a short time saying that a 225 mile area of the ocean littered with Styrofoam, wood and cargo and other items has been located.

A Coast Guard spokesman says the debris was found about 88 nautical miles northeast of Samana Cay in the Bahamas. Earlier, divers did recover a life ring bearing the name of that vessel just about 70 miles northeast of the ship's last known location.

Rochelle Hamm's husband Frank is one of those 33 crew members. She wants to know how on earth was the ship allowed to sail into the path of the storm. Other family members say they are holding on to hope. They hope their loved ones will be found.

(BEGN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL DENTON, FATHER ON LOST CARGO SHIP: You don't say anything. You don't stop hoping. Just keep it up.

REPORTER: Are you hopeful?

DENTON: Yes, yes, yes. Man, you got to be. It's very stressful, you know? So, just hoping everything will be better tomorrow.

JAMES HATCH, SON ON LOST CARGO SHIP: Praying. Yes.

[18:10:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God is in the midst and we know. They will come home safe. They will be safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: One Coast Guard cutter will reach that search area tonight. It will be joined by a second search and rescue vessels tomorrow. We'll keep you posted as we learn more on that.

Straight ahead, though, inside a classroom of that Oregon mass shooting this week. What the youngest survivor is telling her family and how playing dead very well saved her life.

Then, air strikes at a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan. Doctors Without Borders saying this may be a war crime, talking about the U.S. military's role.

We will talk about all of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. RANDY SCROGGINS, NEW BEGINNINGS CHURCH OF GOD: And in spite of our questions, our fear, we have seen this community come together with strength and courage and compassion as if to say we will not be defined by violence and we will not be defined by evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was Pastor Randy Scroggins speaking today to his congregation about God and goodness prevailing over evil after Thursday's mass shooting at that college campus in Oregon. His daughter, Lacey, was inside the classroom during that rampage. She survived in part because she was covered by the body of another student.

Today, a somber headline from the front page of "The Oregonian" newspaper reads, "Roads Left Untaken", those nine lives lost on the front there, nine people killed at Umpqua Community College.

The cover of "Sunday Statesman Journal" is emblazoned with the words "UCC Strong".

In addition to the nine people murdered, nine others were wounded in the rampage. One of those injured was Cheyeanne Fitzgerald. She was shot in the back and ended up losing one of her kidneys. The good news today is that she has been upgraded to fair condition. Her mother, though, says her recovery will take quite a long time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:15:02] BONNIE SCHAAN, CHEYEANNE FITZGERALD'S MOTHER: She is having some tough times. Healing is going to be slow, but I know my daughter is very strong and she is going to get through this.

REPORTER: How old is she?

SCHAAN: She is 16 and in college.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Sixteen and in college just tells you a little bit about what an overachiever she clearly was, the youngest of those to be injured. Standing next to her mother there was her cousin, Courtney Fitzgerald. She joins me now on the phone.

Courtney, thank you for being here.

COURTNEY FITZGERALD, SURVIVOR'S COUSIN (via telephone): Yes, no problem. Glad to be here.

HARLOW: How was Cheyeanne doing today?

FITZGERALD: She is doing good. I mean, pain -- she is in pain but that is expected after being shot.

HARLOW: Absolutely, it is.

I know that she started to talk a little bit about what she remembers from Thursday's shooting. What is she saying to you?

FITZGERALD: She's not saying much. We are not pushing her to say much. She is in a lot of pain and she's on a lot of medications and is not really talking all that much. Well, it is mainly just to her father and her mom. So, I'm not hearing much on her end but hearing it through my aunt and uncle. But we're not -- we are not trying to push her to say anything, just want her to come forward if she wants to.

HARLOW: Sixteen years old and in college, I mean, wow, that tells you a lot about her, doesn't it?

FITZGERALD: Yes, she's a smart girl.

HARLOW: What -- tell me a little about her dreams, what she wants to do and accomplish.

FITZGERALD: She wants to be a nurse and be happy and successful. We are here to support her no matter what she wants to do after this even if she doesn't want to pursue nursing, she wants to switch to something else. We're OK with that. We are here for her.

HARLOW: This shooting is stoking the heated debate over gun control in this country. Last night we heard from presidential candidate Donald Trump. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Second Amendment to our constitution is clear. Now, this is in light of what's going on with Oregon. You know, every time something happens, they blame -- they don't blame mental illness, that our mental health care is out of whack and all of the other problems. By the way, it was a gun free zone. I will tell you, if you had a couple of the teachers or somebody with guns in that room, you would have been a hell of a lot better off.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

You would have been a hell of a lot better off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Courtney, do you think that would help to have armed people in these schools?

FITZGERALD: I personally -- my mom is a teacher here in Roseburg. I personally believe that you do need to restrict some of those gun free zones. We need -- people need to be protected. They need to feel safe.

I go to Oregon State in Corvallis and I know that when I found out about the shooting, I didn't feel safe. I mean, anyone can just walk in to one of those buildings and it's scary. And I feel like someone needs to -- whether a security guard that gets to use guns, or have a gun with him on a regular basis, or the teachers or something. I think that would honestly have helped in the end save lives.

HARLOW: Before I let you go, tell us about the Go Fund Me page that you guys have set up to help your cousin.

FITZGERALD: We set this up because we feel her story needs to get out there and we know that medical bills and she has a long road ahead of her. She deserves every penny helping her get through this tragedy. We set this up just so that she could see how much love there is in the world.

And it's crazy the response we have gotten. I mean, we are so thankful. We did not expect this at all. We are so happy.

HARLOW: All right. Thank you so much, Courtney. We wish -- we wish her very, very well, the best and the speediest recovery possible. Our thoughts are with you guys. Thank you.

FITZGERALD: Well, thank you. Thank you.

HARLOW: Terrifying, that is how staffers describe the bombing of a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan. Is the United States responsible for this deadly mistake? How can something like this be prevented? We'll talk about that next.

Also ahead, is the gunman -- is outgunning the gunman the best way to defend these classrooms? We are going to speak with two teachers and ask them what they think. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:23:45] HARLOW: Outrage and heartbreak tonight after the deadly bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan that claimed 22 lives at least. Doctors Without Borders furious and demanding an independent investigation. A medical facility was hit at the same time the U.S. was conducting air strikes in the region. The director of Doctors Without Borders is calling the strike a potential war crime, very serious allegations.

I want to talk about them with CNN's global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier, and our CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative, Bob Baer.

Kimberly, to you first. Look, we know the U.S. military is looking into this. They are investigating. Doctors Without Borders says that is not enough. They want a, quote, "full and transparent" investigation by an independent international body.

Does that surprise you or is that protocol?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It doesn't surprise me just because the military investigations are often quite opaque. But any investigation actually is going to have to wait because right now that area is contested between the Taliban and Afghan forces.

HARLOW: Right.

DOZIER: When U.S. investigators can get in they will try to look at things like what were the munitions used that struck the hospital. The -- there are reports going back and forth with Doctors Without Borders saying there was no Taliban, there was no firing in the area.

[18:25:04] But Afghan officials saying their people on the ground say they were under fire from Taliban fighters at the hospital location.

HARLOW: Right.

Bob, to you. I want you to listen to what Senator John McCain, formerly a Navy pilot, what he said on "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: If we had had a forward air controller it probably would not have happened. This is also a result of our withdrawal. And, by the way, it was surprising this Taliban attack in Kunduz because it is in the northern part of the country where the Taliban have never been as strong as they have in other parts of the country. So, it is an element of surprise, failure to have air controllers there and fog of war, and it's one of the reasons why we hate wars, Jake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Bob, is he right? I mean, could forward air controllers have prevented this?

BAER: Senator McCain is absolutely right. I mean, the problem is that the Afghans, local Afghans are giving us the coordinates, giving us reports for airstrikes. The pilots don't know. It's a fast-moving battle. They see a target -- they are given a target and they hit it. There is no second checking with CentCom, there's no second checking against satellite photography. The only way to overcome this is when you have Americans on the ground

with binoculars who say, no, don't touch that target. It's a hospital.

No, he's right.

HARLOW: So, Bob, if MSF, Medecins Sans Frontieres, Doctors Without Borders, wants it will prosecute here. What is the process for prosecuting the United States in a case like this?

BAER: We have sovereign immunity. It's not going to happen. NATO does, as well. I frankly think it was a mistake. Doctors Without Borders had given the coordinates to CentCom. In fact, they went down to CentCom, show them pictures, the whole thing.

But clearly did not do this on purpose. It's just the Air Force doesn't do that. Neither does NATO. And I don't think the United States is going to go public of where we got the coordinates from. Simply, we don't want to embarrass our Afghan partners.

HARLOW: Kimberly, final thoughts on how you prevent this.

DOZIER: Well, I agree with Bob. There were probably no forward air controllers but there are reports that there were U.S. special operations forces with the Afghan commandos who were under fire and called in the strikes. It could have been something as little as tragic as confusing the do not strike area or coordinates with what was called in.

HARLOW: Wow.

Kimberly Dozier, Bob Baer, thank you again.

We will continue to follow this as more information comes out.

Up next, though, the case for and against arming teachers in the classroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:30:56] HARLOW: In the wake of the Oregon school shooting anger and fear tormenting many parents and teachers alike. How can schools protect vulnerable children from heinous violence? Donald Trump says give guns to teachers. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: By the way, it was a gun- free zone. I will tell you, if you had a couple of the teachers or somebody with guns in that room you would have been a hell of a lot better off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: At least seven states do allow teachers to carry guns into the classroom. Oregon does not. I want to bring in writer and Oregon community college teacher Melissa

Duclos. Thank you for being here.

Thank you, Poppy, for having me.

HARLOW: You wrote an op-ed this week about your plans to speak to your students after this shooting. I want to read parts that struck me very, very much. Here's what you wrote.

"I will tell them the truth. They have to be prepared to hide out of the line of fire and I to fight for our survival because you our lawmakers haven't done your jobs. I will tell them that their rights, my right, the rights of my 5-year-old to attend school without fear of facing senseless slaughter by machine gunfire are not important to you, that we must be prepared to fight tooth and nails, stapler and whiteboard marker, because you refuse to fight the gun lobby."

Melissa, what do you want to see done?

MELISSA DUCLOS, COMMUNITY COLLEGE TEACHER: Well, for starters I'd like to see teachers speak up more about their experience in the classroom, going through these lockdown drills with elementary schoolers, who are sobbing because they think a bad guy is coming into their classroom or in college campuses where we aren't really given necessarily all the tools that we need to keep our students safe.

But beyond that even if we are given the tools, even if we do have doors that lock and safety protocols and even if we do have guns my point is that that's an undue burden to be placed on teachers and students. That the job should not be ours to be ready to shoot to kill. That's not what I'm trained for. That's not what other teachers are trained for. So I would like to see changes made so teachers aren't expected to do this.

HARLOW: You've said that you think teachers having guns in the classroom will solve nothing. Is there one law you'd like to see passed either in your state or federally that would help take the onus, the burden off of you?

DUCLOS: I don't know that one specific law will do it. Oregon recently passed the Firearm Safety Act which requires background checks at -- for all gun sales. And I think more states should pass that. It was only just recently put into place here in Oregon. I think we should have laws that limit what kinds of guns can be sold to civilians. I'm not sure that the average person needs military grade weaponry.

And I'd like to see waiting periods and reasonable laws about where guns can be carried. I think the same kinds of regulations that we put into place regulating car usage I think would go a long way to helping prevent gun deaths.

HARLOW: So I know you've got a 5 year old. And as you prepare your 5-year-old for school, the school season obviously just beginning, how do you talk to your child about lockdown drills? And I never went through that as a child. DUCLOS: I didn't either. And I don't know how I'm going to start

talking to my kids. My son is in pre-K right now. I also have a daughter who's 3. So they have not had to do lockdown drills yet but starting next year they will. And I don't know how I'm going to explain to them that they aren't safe in their classrooms, that, you know, we are locking doors and doing drills because bad people might come to get them but we're not passing laws to protect them. So yes, I don't know how I'm going to address that.

HARLOW: I don't think I would know how to, either.

Melissa Duclos, thank you very much.

DUCLOS: Thank you, Poppy.

[18:35:03] HARLOW: Now to the other side of this argument, my next guest brings her gun to school every day. She is a teacher in Utah, Kasey Hansen. That's a picture of her at target practice. Her principal at the school where she teaches special needs children, they don't know that she has a gun on her. Utah law allows anyone with a conceal and carry permit including teachers to carry a gun on school property.

In the 10 years since teachers have been allowed to do that, to carry guns into schools in Utah, there have been no fatal school shootings in that state. Kasey Hansen joins me now.

Thank you for being here.

KASEY HANSEN, UTAH TEACHER ARMED IN CLASSROOM: Thank you.

HARLOW: What was it that caused you to go out, buy a gun and learn how to shoot at a shooting range?

HANSEN: You know, I'll be honest. I never was a big gun person until Sandy Hook. It was my third -- second or third year teaching. We found out about Sandy Hook and that was -- that's what did it. I just said there is no way I'm going to let anybody come into my classroom and harm my children. So I took (INAUDIBLE) training.

HARLOW: I know that at the different schools you teach special needs children. The principals, fellow teachers don't know that you're carrying a gun, is that right?

HANSEN: That's correct. Yes, We don't disclose any kind of information like that to each other. You know, I'm probably -- most likely I'm probably not the only person in that school carrying a gun or a permit at the time, but we just don't talk about it.

HARLOW: And you've said every teacher should carry. We are the first line of defense. My team and I, we were talking about this earlier today. And one question that came to us is, are you ever worried that a child or someone with ill intentions could get their hands on your gun and use it against you or other students?

HANSEN: I am not worried because, number one, my children don't know. They will not know when and where and how I carry my gun. And I am fully responsible with the gun at all times. It is, you know, on me or somewhere safe or what not. Nobody knows where I carry it, when I carry it. And I'm not worried.

HARLOW: You know, we just had the other teacher, Melissa, on and she said, I shouldn't have to do this. I'm a teacher. I teach. I shouldn't know how to hit a target, for example. What do you say to that? I mean, do you feel like this is an undue burden that you shouldn't have to be worrying about?

HANSEN: I don't view it as a burden. Yes, I am a teacher. First and foremost I am a teacher. I will always be a teacher. I'm not a gun lobbyist. I'm not, you know, here to rewrite the laws.

HARLOW: Right.

HANSEN: But I feel that my responsibility is to protect the children. And yes, we do have protocols where we turn off the lights. We block our windows, we lock the doors and we hide in a corner. And that's great and fine and wonderful, but it's not going to stop anybody from breaking in the door and shooting at us. And so with my gun I view it as self-defense for myself and my teachers -- or my kids.

HARLOW: Kasey Hansen, thank you very much for coming on and to you and Melissa both. Thank you for doing what you do.

HANSEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Teachers do just about the most important job in this country. Thank you very much.

HANSEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Just ahead, a crusader against income inequality. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio defends his controversial plan on taxing the wealthy more and raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Hear what he says next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:42:35] HARLOW: In tonight's "American Opportunity" New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio has proposed a so-called progressive agenda, a 14-point plan to try to close the income gap that includes raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and increasing taxes on the wealthy.

So we took a subway with him and former labor secretary and economist Robert Reich, also the author of "Saving Capitalism," and we went to the south Bronx. It only took us 25 minutes to get from one of the wealthiest parts of New York to the poorest congressional districts in the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Mayor.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: Thank you. What's your name? How are you?

HARLOW (on camera): You wanted to bring me here.

DE BLASIO: Yes.

HARLOW: Why?

DE BLASIO: Because this is an example of the neighborhood, Melrose in the Bronx, that is really suffering, but there are things that can be done to address income inequality.

HARLOW (voice-over): Mayor de Blasio wanted to take us on the 2 trains up to the south Bronx to show us one of the affordable housing projects his administration has been promoting.

DE BLASIO: We went from a neighborhood where the median household income was $179,000 to here in the Bronx, $21,000 for a family, below the poverty level, is the median income here in this neighborhood.

HARLOW: In 20, 25 minutes.

DE BLASIO: Correct. That's all it took to go from one world to another effectively. And I've often talked about the tale of two cities. You know, our mission is to try and create more fairness, more opportunity across the board and we're using the tools of the city government to do it.

HARLOW: And to those who say, Mr. Mayor, that sounds too socialist. Capitalism, not perfect. America, not perfect economically, but the best example there is in a world. What do you say to them?

DE BLASIO: There's no contradiction between a free enterprise system and a very energetic role in government creating fair regulation and making some of the adjustments we need so that people can participate in a society fully. Look, we don't say there shouldn't be public education, right? Obviously I think there should be a muscular government role in creating affordable housing. That's how it's done.

HARLOW: Where is that right balance because you don't want a society where everyone has the same?

DE BLASIO: I don't think it's conceivable to have such a society with human beings involved. I want a society where there's opportunity for all. I want a society where no one's left out economically or otherwise.

HARLOW (voice-over): A 20-year-old named John approaches the mayor, saying, he's homeless. He says he's been living in a shelter since he was 17 years old.

JOHN, HOMELESS YOUTH: I am a homeless youth. How can you help us? And I want to know, how can you help us? Because we struggle all the time.

[18:45:10] HARLOW (on camera): Homelessness in this city has risen under your administration from 50,000 to 57,000 people right now. Why?

DE BLASIO: Because of the same tale of two cities I talked about. The weight of the economic crisis of the last few years has been felt more and more. What we found in this city is while people were becoming economically less stable, losing their jobs or in jobs that just didn't pay much more than minimum wage, the cost of housing kept going up. So the basic economics stopped working for more and more New Yorkers.

HARLOW: Do you need to be more aggressive on the homelessness issue?

DE BLASIO: The last fiscal year we moved 38,000 people out of shelter and into permanent housing. 15,000 of those were based on new initiatives just in the last year that we created. We're going to keep innovating. It's pure economics and this is the kind of thing that help us stop homelessness. Affordable housing in the community and jobs that pay a better wage. We have to realize that homelessness crisis is related to a bigger economic crisis.

HARLOW (voice-over): Liberal economist and former labor secretary, Robert Reich, has been one of the biggest proponents of de Blasio's so-called progressive agenda. A 14-point plan that includes raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour and increasing taxes on the wealthy.

(On camera): As an economist, how much of a factor is affordable safe housing in elevating people from the bottom up?

ROBERT REICH, FORMER U.S. LABOR SECRETARY: A huge factor because increasing percentages of paychecks are going to housing. One of the largest portions of paychecks in history. One of the most difficult things in America right now which is income segregation. It's not just racial segregation. It's income segregation. As we are segregating by income we are creating different societies that have almost nothing to do with one another.

DE BLASIO: The whole notion here is to reward work, not wealth. And I think that's a notion that actually will have a broad consensus.

HARLOW: Let's talk about fast food workers and their fight to make at least $15 an hour.

REICH: Fifteen is fair and reasonable. It's what we need. Otherwise we are all paying in our taxes a great deal of money to keep people out of poverty who have full-time work.

HARLOW: I read half of New Yorkers are at or near the poverty line right now.

DE BLASIO: 46 percent. 46 percent, yes.

HARLOW: I can't put myself in those shoes. I don't know what it's like to live in that. I never have. But what I know what's worse is if you lose that job.

DE BLASIO: Is there a danger in raising the minimum wage? I think there's a danger in not raising the minimum wage because what that means is folks are so hand to mouth. There's no disposable income. There's no optional purchasing and that holds back the economy as a whole.

Lloyd Blankfein, the head of Goldman Sachs.

HARLOW: Goldman Sachs.

DE BLASIO: Said in an interview that income inequality, growth and income inequality is destabilizing in the United States of America.

HARLOW: He also said to me, we have done a better job in this society creating wealth than distributing it. And then he went on to say --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD BLANKFEIN, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, GOLDMAN SACHS: If you collected revenue from the whole which means from -- in a progressive tax system the wealthier people, and not write checks to people but rather invest it in education, housing, those benefits will disproportionately inure to the neediest elements of society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is he right about that?

DE BLASIO: So he's right in the sense if we don't figure out a different way to use wealth we can't invest in our society, we can't create opportunity. That is true. But at the same time, and I believe this in terms of the sense of inclusion that is the American ideal, if people work, they work hard, they work multiple jobs and they can't get ahead, that is discordant with decades and decades of American history.

HARLOW: You're saying then you should be writing checks to them.

DE BLASIO: Not writing checks. Giving them the kind of wages and benefits they deserve.

REICH: The is the first recovery in which median household in the United States is doing worse now than at the start of the recovery. So it's not a recovery for most people. And that propels a political change. And people are angry. They feel like the system is rigged against them.

HARLOW: After you unveiled, Mayor, the progressive agenda, the "Washington Post" published an op-ed called the key obstacle to restoring the middle class, it argued fairness is important. It went on to argue that technological advancement has changed the economy completely. What do you say to those who argue that this agenda does not include what you do to deal with technology that we didn't have 10, 20 years ago?

DE BLASIO: I would never say that technology and globalization are not part of the dynamic we're experiencing but I think it's wrong to suggest that we have a static economy. The economy keeps moving in different directions, right? We have a lot more service jobs and retail jobs than we used to have. We've seen that the absence of government intervention has caused the plummeting of wages and benefits. A natural response would be government put its foot on the pedal and bring those back up again.

[18:50:00] REICH: As the middle class shrinks, it's harder for the poor to move into the middle class because there are fewer places in the middle class. We need to have an expanding middle class.

HARLOW: What happens if we don't?

REICH: I think that the current direction we're in, economically and also politically in terms of the big money in politics, is unsustainable. We cannot have an economy that is good for even the rich if it's not growing.

DE BLASIO: You're talking about a situation where people will no longer feel invested in our country and its promise if they don't see some possibility getting ahead. The anger out there is based on fact. It's based on what people are actually experiencing. They can feel their possibilities slipping away. And that's not the America they signed up for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: We also talked about the fact that just about 400 families have contributed nearly half of the money in this 2016 election so far. Mayor de Blasio told me he wants to see a constitutional amendment to overturn the Citizens United Supreme Court decision.

I asked him is that too idealistic to think that you can actually do that, he said no. He argues public opinion polls show there's a consensus growing in this country across partisan divides. He thinks this is possible.

I'm interested in knowing what you think. Tweet me @poppyharlowCNN.

Still to come tonight, a 1,000-year flood. A final check on that severe flooding in the Carolinas and what is ahead. Next.

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[18:55:41] HARLOW: All right. An update now on that historic flooding in South Carolina. Governor Nikki Haley says it is the worst rain to hit her state in 1,000 years. She is urging all residents to stay home at least through Monday. A curfew is in effect in Columbia, South Carolina, as we speak. We know at least three people have died in that state in weather-related deaths. 600 National Guard members have been deployed.

And a 70-mile stretch of I-95, one of the busiest highways in the country, has been shut down. The worst may still not be over. The skies are not expected to clear up until Tuesday or Wednesday.

You can get the latest news any time at CNN.com and of course on our mobile app. Up next, though, the new season of "ANTHONY BOURDAIN PARTS UNKNOWN."

At 9:00 p.m. Eastern, Bourdain explores what he believes is one of the most underrated cities in the world, Marseille, that is followed by Mike Rowe's "SOMEBODY'S GOTTA DO IT: DEMOLITION RANCH" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.

I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thank you so much for being with me, everyone. Have a great week.

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