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GOP Meets for High Stakes Speaker Vote; Interview with Representative Daniel Webster; Shooting Victim Upset by Ben Carson's Comments; Rupert Murdoch Tweet Backlash; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 08, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:01:01] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Good Thursday morning. I'm Ana Cabrera in for Carol Costello. Glad to have you with me.

Right now we are watching three big stories on Capitol Hill. First, House Republicans are meeting right now. They're voting on their candidate for speaker of the House to replace John Boehner. Who says House majority leader Kevin McCarthy is a shoo-in?

Also, the head of Volkswagen U.S. in the hot seat. A shocking testimony, he knew about possible emissions systems and a way to cheat the system last year.

Plus, General John Campbell back to testify on Afghanistan. Will we get more answers on the terror threat here?

But we start on Capitol Hill and the Republican battle to be the party's next nominee for speaker of the House. Live pictures right now of the capitol. In just two hours Republican lawmakers will gather, cast a secret ballot for their choice to replace John Boehner.

And while today's process is behind closed doors, a very public fight for the top job has exposed a rift within the party. And Dana Bash, CNN's chief political correspondent, is joining me now.

Dana, we now know there are not two, but three candidates working to get votes of their colleagues, right?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And those three candidates just gave their kind of closing pitches behind closed doors to the Republican members who are going to be voting in a couple of hours.

Kevin McCarthy is one. He is the frontrunner who is currently the House majority leader. And Jason Chaffetz, who is the chair of the House Oversight Committee, he threw his hat in the ring over the weekend, it kind of surprised a lot of people since he and McCarthy have been pretty good friends. And then Daniel Webster of Florida, he now is the favorite among those who call themselves kind of the most conservative in the so-called House Freedom Caucus.

So just moments ago Kevin McCarthy walked by me. He insisted that he is going to be OK, that he's going to get the votes later at noon. And what is going to happen at noon is a secret ballot. And then to get the nomination, which is effectively what this is, the nomination for speaker from the House Republicans, it's got to be 125 yeses. And then, you know, if that doesn't happen, there could be multiple ballots but, again, McCarthy insists that he feels comfortable he will get that in the first round -- Ana.

CABRERA: And really, the key here, though, is not just today's vote. But when we look ahead in a few weeks, when the entire House votes, it's not entirely clear it seems that McCarthy is going to win that.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right. What we're going to see on October 29th is the actual vote for House speaker because the -- here on Capitol Hill, almost all the leadership posts are done by the party. And once the party nominates them, that's it. The speaker of the House is different. It's a constitutional position. The entire House of Representatives has to approve, the majority has to approve the speaker of the House.

So that vote is set, as I said, for the end of October. And just because McCarthy, assuming he does get the nomination today, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to get the magic, what we expect to be needed, 218 votes, majority at the end of October because there is a lot of to'ing and fro'ing going on among those people I was telling you about, the House Freedom Caucus. These are the members that effectively forced John Boehner out.

They don't think that McCarthy is a new face and they want to make sure they're going to use their leverage now and make sure that he is going to listen to them, going to give them power that they say that they need, that they want in order to secure their votes -- Ana.

CABRERA: Dana Bash on Capitol Hill, thank you.

Now, as she mentioned, one group threatening to derail frontrunner Kevin McCarthy's quest to be next speaker is that House Freedom Caucus. And this is a group of key conservatives believed to total around 40 members. Enough to keep McCarthy from reaching that crucial 218 votes needed when the full House votes later this month. Then as of now, the Freedom Caucus is backing this man. This is Florida Congressman Daniel Webster. But will they then stick together during the actual vote?

[10:05:04] That is yet to be seen. And CNN's chief national correspondent John King is going to join me now.

John, things are getting interesting.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Things are interesting, Ana. And this debate among House conservatives over who should lead them is really a debate about who they should be and what posture they should take. The group, the Freedom Caucus, as you mentioned, and Dana just discussed, 40 or so conservatives backing Daniel Webster right now. Most of them came in, in the Tea Party wave of 2010, some of them in the second Republican wave in the midterm election of 2014.

And they simply think their party which has won those elections, they have a House majority, now they have a Senate majority, they have this frustration that they're not winning. Why haven't we repealed Obamacare? Why do we keep voting to increase the government's debt ceiling so the government can borrow more money? Why haven't we won more conservative victories whether it's defunding Planned Parenthood or on spending issues.

So they're frustrated. Now what John Boehner has tried to tell them and what Kevin McCarthy is going to have to try to tell them now is no matter what, yes, we have a House majority but there's only 54 Republican senators. You need 60 votes to get much done. And by the way, there's a Democratic president, Barack Obama, who can veto anything we send him. But these most conservative members despite Civics 101, if you remember taking civics class, Ana, they still think that their leadership should be getting more. Or if they can't get more, that it should be more confrontational.

And so those conservatives will be with Daniel Webster today. And as Dana just noted, I think the key point is after the vote today, assuming McCarthy is right and he gets most of the votes, the question now is what does he have to give up? Does he have to issue a public statement? Does he -- let's listen up, we have some rumor on Capitol Hill, somebody is speaking. Let's take a peek. Jason Chaffetz.

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R), UTAH: This is what I worry about is that the math is an issue. And it will continue to be an issue. But given that there's a process here, and that if you wanted to run, you can step up, I did, then I think we can yield a good result so.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Congressman, what's this process say about where the Republican conference is right now, these deep divisions that still remain and if any eventual speaker can unite the party at all?

CHAFFETZ: Well, again, I want to engage in some process reform. I think if you do that process reform, then you do yield a better result. But this is, you know, a healthy part of the process. And nobody expected that Speaker Boehner was going to step down, so we're going through this in the right way and hopefully we can get united.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think there needs to be a bigger shakeup in the other positions in the leadership?

CHAFFETZ: No, no, no. Not at all. No.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You said over the weekend that there are 50 who will vote against McCarthy. Is that still true?

CHAFFETZ: Based on the people I've chatted with, you know, it's part of the reason I offered my candidacy, is if they felt like they wanted to have an alternative, that I could help represent that alternative. So --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is that still true?

CHAFFETZ: I -- it will be interesting to see how many people take a similar approach to me and say, look, we had the race and, you know, this is the result, so we'll respect that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To be clear, you're still planning -- if you don't get the votes today, it's over for you today.

CHAFFETZ: Yes. If -- I'm going to support the nominee, whoever that is. So we'll find out here in a little bit.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Congressman, Congressman --

CHAFFETZ: All right. I'm going to keep going. I think you got enough stuff.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: That's the Republican congressman, Jason Chaffetz of Utah there. He threw his hat into the ring to be the next speaker of the House over the weekend. A bit of a surprise there. You heard him acknowledging there, he doesn't have the votes right now. He thinks Kevin McCarthy has the votes but he's put himself forward essentially as a plan B, that if there are enough Republicans who refuse to vote for Kevin McCarthy in the end, on the floor of the House of Representatives, and they need an alternative, he tries to have him right there.

And I think CNN now has Daniel Webster, who is the other conservative candidate for speaker of the House against the majority leader Kevin McCarthy. Let's go and take a peek.

BASH: Hey there. That's right. I have Daniel Webster just walking by after he gave his pitch to his caucus. Thank you very much for joining me.

What did you say about why you think you should be speaker?

REP. DANIEL WEBSTER (R), FLORIDA: Well, I just said, look, when I was speaker of the Florida House, we were able to turn our numbers, polling numbers right side up by taking up the most important issues first and then taking that pyramid of power that existed where a few people made all the decision, push it down, spread it out, so every member got a chance to be a player. When you do that, you buy in the membership and you can adjourn on time, and you can take up the most important issues first and you get your job done. And it worked, and the public notices.

BASH: And you have gotten the endorsement of the House Freedom Caucus, which is a caucus that's relatively new but somebody that has quite a lot of power. Talk about your conversations with them and why you think you got that?

WEBSTER: I told them the exact same thing. Now they were wanting to know how I would run the House and the whole idea is getting everyone to participate and given the opportunity as opposed to having a top- down approach, where most of the decisions are made at the top and most of the big decisions are left to the deadline instead of taking those up first.

When you take them up first, you have the upper hand. When you take them up last, you're going to get run over. [10:10:08] BASH: You know, as you well know, around here, that's

generally not how the House has been run. Either by Democrats or Republicans. It's been run by power at the top and been done that way for many, many years. And a lot of people think it has worked for many years. Why do you think it should be different now?

WEBSTER: Well, I think the public thinks it's dysfunctional. Our numbers are only 11 percent approval. So I think they may be the way it works but it's not the right way. We base everything on principle instead of power. Those two things can't exist in the same room. Either have principle or you have power. And when the membership gets engaged, the whole body does a much better job at doing the work.

BASH: You -- assuming that you -- let's just say that you don't get the nomination today in the vote today, and that Kevin McCarthy does, will you support Kevin McCarthy on the floor when the House votes October 29th?

WEBSTER: Well, I'm going to answer that if I lose, how about that?

BASH: Have you been thinking about it?

WEBSTER: No, I've been thinking about winning only.

BASH: And how do you feel in terms of the votes? Where do you think you are right now, how many do you have?

WEBSTER: I have no idea. I haven't asked for commitments. What I have done is made my own commitment to them. I would commit to serving them by telling the truth, by making them successful, by giving them the idea of putting principle over power, and then also by saying that I'll earn the right to be heard and not demand to be heard.

BASH: I know you don't want to think about sort of what happens after the vote but I'm just going to try one more question. If you don't get the vote for speaker, and the -- whomever it is, let's assume it's Kevin McCarthy, says to you, you know if you come and have a seat at the table with me, you know, that could work, if you could help me get the Freedom Caucus members. Kind of make a deal. Would you go for that?

WEBSTER: Well, I'm a plotter. Not -- I'm going to get to that vote. We're going to see what happens and then I'll make any decision I need to after that.

BASH: Thank you so much. Appreciate you stopping. All right. Good luck today. Thank you.

John, back to you.

KING: Playing it carefully, Dana, Congressman Webster is, as he heads into this vote, holding his cards close to his vest. And that is where we're going to end up after this vote. You just heard from Jason Chaffetz there who presents himself sort of the alternative. If they can't work it out in those private meetings, Congressman Webster says I'm the conservative guy, vote for me, and we'll make things different even if we can't win all the votes. I'll let the more junior members at least have more say.

Kevin McCarthy remains the establishment favorite, Ana. And as we watch this, a lot of people watching around the country might be thinking, why does this matter to me? This is a big deal about the civil unrest within the Republican Party, the disagreements over whether to be governing conservatives can cut the best deal, whether the opposition conservatives be more confrontational with President Obama.

And as we watch this, Ana, play out in Washington today and then over the next couple of weeks, guess what, many of these same tensions are what we're watching when you have the Republican debates between, say, a Donald Trump or a Jeb Bush, or a Marco Rubio and a Ted Cruz. What we're seeing in Washington is what's happening in the presidential race and all across the country.

CABRERA: Well, and the bigger question is, when that speakership does change hands, what's really going to change? It sounds to me, what we heard from Webster is that the conservative caucus, which he will then represent on a more broader level, I mean, they're still going to be digging in their heels. Do you expect dynamics to change internally?

KING: That's -- it's a great question because the math won't change, at least until the next election. You have a Democratic president to the White House, you have only 54 Republican senators on the Senate side. So these conservatives want more but the math simply does not support getting it. And so will they be happier if they can a speaker who says fine, we're going to still vote 10 more times to repeal Obamacare, even though we know we're not going to get it? We're going to shut down the government, to defund Planned Parenthood or to refuse to raise the debt limit which will have to happen in a few weeks here in Washington?

It's just more confrontation enough or as Congressman Webster suggested, more consultation? That I'll bring you in at the table, I'll listen to you more. In the end, Ana, though, the math is not going to change. They are not going to get what they want from a policy perspective in the short term. So the question is, can they manage this?

One other quick footnote, the conservatives have invested in Congressman Webster there. His district is part of a Florida legal case. His district is likely to be redrawn. And most people believe he can't win his seat next year.

CABRERA: Interesting.

KING: That it's going to be redrawn into a Democratic district. But they're looking for someone to carry their banner. He's likely to lose today but because this is behind closed doors and because the frustration is so great, let's watch what happens. We have a little chaos at the moment, and then it will play out over the next couple of weeks.

CABRERA: All right. We'll keep an eye on it for sure. John King, thank you.

KING: Thank you.

CABRERA: Still ahead here today, Rupert Murdoch feels the backlash. Now he's backtracking. The tweet that started it all next.

[10:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: To the race for the White House now. Republican hopeful Jeb Bush is in Iowa today trying to win over voters there. He is wrapping up a three-day visit to the Hawkeye state. Today's events include a meet-and-greet over pizza with some of the voters. But rival Ben Carson is the one making big headlines this morning. He's now facing backlash after doubling down on his controversial comments about last week's mass shooting in Oregon.

Carson, you'll recall, ignited a firestorm after he suggested that the shooting victims should have rushed the gunman.

Let's bring in CNN's Athena Jones. She is live this morning from the campaign trail in Des Moines, Iowa.

And, Athena, now one of those victims of the shooting not taking Carson's comments too lightly.

[10:20:01] ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Ana. That's right. That victim is taking offense at his remarks. And look, voters say one of the appeals of Ben Carson is that he's not a politician. He says what he thinks and he doesn't worry about political correctness. The question now is whether these latest comments will begin to damage that appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to plant in people's minds what to do in a situation like this.

JONES (voice-over): Republican presidential hopeful Ben Carson just can't seem to shake the firestorm he ignited. On Wednesday Carson doubling down on controversial comments he made about last week's Oregon campus massacre.

CARSON: From the indications that I got, they did not rush the shooter. The shooter can only shoot one person at a time. He cannot shoot a whole group of people.

JONES: Now a survivor of the shooting has responded, telling CNN, quote, "I'm fairly upset he said that. Nobody could truly understand what actions they would take like that in a situation unless they lived it."

Carson first commented on the massacre on Tuesday, telling ABC News what he would done.

CARSON: I would ask everybody to attack the gunman because he can only shoot one of us at a time, that way we don't all end up dead.

I would not just stand there and let them shoot me. I would say, hey, guys, everybody attack him. He might shoot me but he can't get us all.

JONES: But just a day later the former brain surgeon recounting a much different reaction where he was once held at gunpoint in Baltimore to Sirius XM Radio.

CARSON: The guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs. And I -- I just said, I believe that you want the guy behind the counter. He thought I was --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what you -- in a calm way, just --

CARSON: In that calm way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way. OK.

CARSON: He said, oh, OK.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And so you just redirected him to --

CARSON: I redirected him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

JONES: On Wednesday an unlikely ally coming to Carson's defense.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mr. Trump, real quick on Ben Carson, you're tweeting differently about him. Are you defending him now?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I thought he was treated unfairly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: Now Trump and Carson have been holding their fire against one another in recent weeks. In fact, Trump says he would tap Carson for a Cabinet position if he wins -- Ana.

CABRERA: Athena Jones reporting, thank you.

And today one of Carson's big supporters, media mogul Rupert Murdoch, is backtracking after he sent the Internet into a frenzy for tweeting this. "Ben and Candy Carson," he says, "terrific." "What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide and much else."

Well, that tweet, of course, being seen as a shot at President Obama and Murdoch is now apologizing for the tweet. He followed up with this, saying, "Apologies. No offense meant. Personally, find both men charming." Joining me now to discuss further, CNN political commentator and radio

host Ben Ferguson and we're also joined by CNN political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill, a professor at Morehouse College.

Ben, to you first. What's your reaction to that initial tweet Murdoch sent out?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think what he was trying to imply was President Obama has not brought us together on racial -- on the racial divide. In fact in many ways I think the president has actually made it worse. He always seems to come out any time that people are pressuring him on a racial issue to make it even worse than it was and not to bring people together.

Now the way he said it obviously wasn't the way that I would say it and now he's backtracking it a little bit here. But I do think that Ben Carson would be different and I think he would actually try to bring people together instead of always getting people riled up over racial issues. Sometimes when the initial report is not reality. A great example of that is Ferguson. I don't think the president did anything to calm that situation. He helped push that situation even bigger than it was before.

CABRERA: Marc, do you take offense at all to Murdoch's comments?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course I do. First of all, who is Rupert Murdoch to be the arbitrator of authentic blackness? Right? I mean, that on its face is ridiculous. It's also dishonest. The FOX News infrastructure and the right-wing entirely may not really be that different. Spent the first six years of President Obama's term in office telling us and reminding us how black he was.

Remember when he was running for office and they had "The New Yorker" cover and they had, you know, Michelle Obama with the black power get- up, and they called the fist bump of terrorist fist jabs and they did all these things to tell -- to blacken up Obama so that white people wouldn't vote for him, and now that he's about to leave office he's saying he wasn't actually black enough.

And that the proxy -- his proxy for blackness should be, of all people, Ben Carson. And I'm not questioning Ben Carson's blackness. We're all black. We're all equally black. There's no differential types of blackness here. But to Ben's point, which I completely disagree with, how could Ben Carson bring us together racially when most black people aren't voting for Ben Carson, don't support Ben Carson, and find Ben Carson's political commentary objectionable.

President Obama didn't do a great job with race all the time. For me because he didn't talk about race enough. Not because he talked about it too much. The problem is white people, if you talk about it twice, that's two times too many. President Obama didn't talk about race his whole term. He talked about it very rarely at best.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: No, it's not --

CABRERA: So let's talk about Carson -- go ahead, Ben.

FERGUSON: Go ahead.

CABRERA: Finish your thought.

[10:25:05] FERGUSON: No, I think the big difference here is, you know, you listen to what Marc just said about Ben Carson. Many African-Americans for some reason because he's conservative imply that he's somehow not black enough. You just said that you're not questioning his blackness.

HILL: Yes.

FERGUSON: But now because of his politics you're saying he's not a real black man.

HILL: I said the opposite, Ben. Are you not listening? I just said, I'm not questioning his blackness. He is as black as everyone. No one is more or less black than anybody else.

FERGUSON: But you said that he couldn't bring us together because he's a conservative Republican.

HILL: Because we don't agree with him. Because we don't agree with him. Donald Trump can't bring us together. George Pataki can't bring us together if he's still running for president.

FERGUSON: But why can't Ben Carson not come to the table with a different perspective and a different viewpoint and somehow you implied that because he's conservative, he can somehow not bring African-Americans to the table and help with a racial divide in this country but, therefore, Barack Obama can?

HILL: No, I didn't say that. No. I'm glad people in America have DVR, they can rewind and actually hear what I said. I'm saying that his particular politics are not compatible with racial reconciliation. I also said it's contrary to what you just said --

FERGUSON: How so? Give me one example of his policies that will not bring us together.

HILL: I'll tell you in one second but I want to challenge the other point you made that was also untrue. You said that I said President Obama could. No, I actually said, President Obama did not bring us together racially enough. I just disagree on why. I think it's because we didn't talk about race enough. But to your Ben Carson question --

FERGUSON: All right. So what policy does Ben Carson have --

HILL: I'm going to answer -- I'm going to answer your question. Ben Carson in the first debate said that, you know, when you cut people open, you look at everybody, the same color inside. He doesn't -- all lives matter versus black lives matter. He said all of these things. That speaks to facially neutral, color blind, public policy when, in fact, we need racially targeted, racial specific public policy.

Not only do I think it's wrong politically but I also think it's wrong for bringing people together because when you start telling black people that they shouldn't be named as black, that we should say all lives matter instead of black lives matter, that doesn't bring black people to the table. That pushes black people away from the table. So that's a direct answer to your question.

FERGUSON: I disagree. I think his point is very clear. Every life matters when someone is killed or shot, whether it be an African- American police officer or Hispanic police officer.

HILL: Black people always say that.

FERGUSON: It's not saying that we always say. It may actually just be the truth if a police officer --

HILL: No, no. That's not what -- I said black people have always said that.

FERGUSON: For the color of his skin being that, white, or Hispanic or black, that's wrong. All lives do matter. I agree with him. I think that is actually --

HILL: Ben --

CABRERA: And guys, we've had black lives matter, all lives matter debate before so I'm going to have to end our segment right there. And you can continue --

HILL: All black lives matter.

CABRERA: -- into the break, but I think -- it's very obvious, many people are passionate about this issue, the issue of race and the racial divide in the country.

Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill, you both offer a really thoughtful discussion. We appreciate it.

HILL: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: And up next, the head of Volkswagen U.S. in the hot seat. The shocking testimony he knew about possible emissions issues and a way to cheat the system as early as last year.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)