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Rubio Momentum; Virginia Murder; Clinton vs Sanders. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 04, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: This was a commercial jet. It had just taken off, was 12,000 feet above Somalia when the blast ripped open this hole in the cabin. A passenger was believed to have been sucked out of this plane. A body was later discovered on the ground in Mogadishu. Two other passengers were injured.

And we get to hour two. So great to be with you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN, five days out now officially from the first-in- the-nation primary in New Hampshire. The only two Democrats left in this race for the White House, they are battling it out over the ideological direction of the party's future.

Bernie Sanders is trying to spark what he refers to as a political revolution, Hillary Clinton trying to convince voters she is the best candidate to lead the Democrats in this post-Obama era. They laid out their cases, some awesome questions from these voters in New Hampshire, all the while going after one another in CNN's Democratic town hall.

The two have been locked in a heated tussle. A lot of it boils down to who is the most progressive candidate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Secretary Clinton said some people call me -- well, I'm paraphrasing. Some people call me a moderate. And I proudly say that I am a moderate. That's what she said.

So, when -- all I said, you can't go and say you're a moderate on one day and be a progressive on the other day.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was amused Senator Sanders has set himself up to be the gatekeeper on who is a progressive, because under the definition that was flying around on Twitter and statements by the campaign, Barack Obama would not be a progressive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's begin with CNN political director David Chalian, live in Manchester, New Hampshire.

David Chalian, why is this so important, this label progressive, to voters?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, because that's really how the base of the Democratic Party thinks of itself.

So, Brooke, as they are battling not in a general election context right now, obviously, but in the context of trying to win the Democratic nomination, and that is where the biggest swathe of Democrats feel that they are.

It's interesting, though, because here in New Hampshire, as you know, independents play a big role. They can choose which primary they want to play in. I'm not sure the independents who play in the Democratic Party consider themselves progressives. But that is why you probably saw Hillary Clinton trying to strike a balance, more than just try to get to Bernie Sanders' left.

BALDWIN: I think they both really did well last night. I think there were some great questions from some of those New Hampshire voters, and especially when they both hit on individually talking about spirituality, talking about faith, talking about gratitude.

Here is, first, Bernie Sanders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: What do you say to a voter out there who says -- and that who sees faith as a guiding principle in their lives and wants it to be a guiding principle for this country?

SANDERS: It's a guiding principle on life, absolutely. So my spirituality is that we are all in this together, and that, when children go hungry, when veterans sleep out on the street, it impacts me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: David, I think when people have been following Senator Sanders, maybe they think of him as more of a secular candidate. I think religion isn't the word for him. It's spirituality. And that resonated.

CHALIAN: Without a doubt. I thought this was so interesting, Brooke. We so very rarely here Bernie Sanders talk about faith in any way. He connected it to his core message of why he is running for president, that indeed he does get from spiritual experience, from his faith, even though he is not an actively participating Jewish person, he does say that his faith, his spirituality is what ties him to this notion of trying to create a more equal economic footing for everyone in the country.

I thought it was really interesting how he connected it. It's not how we normally hear him speak.

BALDWIN: And here was Hillary Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLINTON: I feel very fortunate that I am a person of faith, that I was raised in my church and that I have had to deal and struggle with a lot of these issues about ambition and humility, about service and self-gratification.

It's that balance that I keep to try to find in my life that I want to see back in our country. And it will be something that I continue to talk about with a -- you know, with a group of faith advisers who are close to me. I get a Scripture lesson every morning from a minister that I have a really close personal relationship with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We have heard her talk about faith recently. We have heard Bill Clinton talk about Hillary Clinton's faith recently. Is this a first in terms of how much they have discussed it?

CHALIAN: Yes, I was blown away by this last night, Brooke, as I was watching this, because Hillary Clinton herself was talking about how she's been on the public stage for 25 years now in a really prominent way.

When Anderson asked her, let's get to some personal questions later on in the town hall, she's like, is there anything left to learn about me? And yet she did have this moment, this question from this rabbi in the audience.

[15:05:08]

BALDWIN: Yes.

CHALIAN: And I have never heard her so publicly discuss this balance between ambition and humility. You could sort of sense she was working through her thinking of it in the moment.

I don't think she'd ever really heard a question like that before, and for being in public life as long as she has, the fact that she had the ability to still show us a side of her we haven't seen before, I found really remarkable.

BALDWIN: Talking about gratitude. David Chalian, thank you very much in New Hampshire.

From faith and these personal moments back to this notion of who is the more progressive candidate. How much do voters even really care whether somebody is progressive vs. more center, moderate?

Joining me now, we have both sides represented, former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, who is also the senior adviser to a super PAC supporting Hillary Clinton, and Democratic strategist Nomiki Konst. She's a Bernie Sanders supporter and is executive director of the Accountability Project.

Welcome to both of you.

Let me begin, let's see, on this notion of what is a progressive, just quickly, Nomiki, first to you, define progressive for me.

NOMIKI KONST, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, you know, I think these labels are a little archaic.

Basically, what is a progressive is somebody who has a background who ha been able to stick to the issues of the Democratic Party in line with the majority of the Democratic Party and what they care about over their career.

And for millennials in particular, which is where I see this battle for the soul of the Democratic Party existing, between generations, millennials don't care about labels. They care about backbone, they care about authenticity. When they see the alternative to Bernie Sanders changing her positions on a few key issues, that raises a red flag. That's why women millennials are backing Bernie Sanders, especially because the Democratic Party is more progressive, 70 percent more progressive than it was 10 years ago.

BALDWIN: It is an issue because both of the candidates are bringing up this issue of what is progressive and who is more progressive, so it's totally germane.

Governor, to you, define progressive for me.

JENNIFER GRANHOLM (D), FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: Well, I actually agree. I think it is a label.

I think putting that 500 million solar panels on houses like Hillary Clinton is proposing is progressive. I think that fighting for a woman's right to choose is progressive. I think that her policies with respect to Wall Street are progressive. So I think you have to look at the policies. I think you have to look at where they have been all of their lives.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But what about the fact that we -- she has also called herself, Governor, moderate? Can you be both?

GRANHOLM: I think when you have to negotiate, sometimes your positions end up being more to the center because you are negotiating with folks that are on the right.

But her ultimate core is a progressive core and it's been a progressive core ever since she was in college. She has been a progressive and has fought on the ground for progressive issues and that's really who she is.

BALDWIN: Nomiki, you're shaking your head.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: In fact, Brooke, can I just say, can I just -- just quickly, one of the things that she said last night, just dovetailing off of your last guest, is her faith. And she was raised a Methodist. And in the progressive community, we

often cite the 25th chapter of Matthew, wherein the lord says whatsoever you do unto the least these, so also you do unto me.

So, the fact that she started out the Children's Defense Fund, who are the least of these kids who were disabled, kids who actually were in prison, she has been fighting for progressive causes. That's part and parcel of who she is.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Nomiki.

KONST: I think the issue is not whether she's a progressive at her core. It's whether she stands for progressive issues most of the time.

Her Senate record, something that she's not really talking about, mainly because she did vote for the Iraq War, she voted for the Patriot Act, she deregulated Wall Street. These are issues that are core to the progressive principles of the Democratic Party, which is much more progressive than it was 10 years ago, when she ran for president against Barack Obama.

Even though she started the Children's Defense Fund, she is still quite hawkish. And that is something that Democrats, millennials in particular, suffering the consequences of the recession, of the Iraq War, you know, that speaks to them. If she is among progressives, take away the labels. We want to feel it. We want to see it. We want to know that you're actually advocating for these issues, not just doing it when it's convenient and the polls are telling you so.

And that's why progressives are upset, because it's not about the fact that she voted once or twice for Band-Aid legislation or that she talks about three or four pieces of legislation that speak to the polls. It's that she's doing it all the time, that she's negotiating from the progressive and coming to the center, not starting at the center and negotiating to the Republican side.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in, because I also am wondering from either of you to comment on the opposite rival candidate.

So, Governor, the fact that we did hear so much about Bernie Sanders' role in the '60s and his arrest, you know, over his fight for desegregating University of Chicago housing and the schools, were you impressed by that?

[15:10:03]

GRANHOLM: Oh, totally, totally.

How can you not be impressed by anybody who is consistently making sure that they are talking about income inequality? And people, of course, appreciate that very much about Bernie Sanders. And I'm not even going to put a but at the end of that sentence, as I would expect that the person on the other end of this is not going to either, because, of course, we're excited that we have got a discussion here about progressivity in the Democratic Party. That's exciting. BALDWIN: And I think equally, Nomiki, what Hillary Clinton has done

ever since she graduated law school, fighting -- women's rights from the get, even though you mentioned, you know, she isn't polling as well with young women, still strong. Are you impressed by that?

KONST: Oh, absolutely.

And I have been a Hillary Clinton supporter. I interned for her when I was 15 years old. I had pictures of her on my wall in high school.

BALDWIN: Wow.

KONST: I respect her. I deeply respect her. But I see that our party is moving in a different direction.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: Wait, no buts, no buts.

KONST: Ah, sorry.

(LAUGHTER)

GRANHOLM: You couldn't help yourself, could you?

(CROSSTALK)

KONST: The next generation -- And I respect you too as well. I read your book.

But, you know, I think that we need to be investing in the next generation of leadership. And I think that even though Bernie Sanders is 72, he acknowledges this generation. He's working with them and he wants to include them.

Unfortunately, as someone who even ran for Congress myself, I did not feel that from the Democratic Party. I did not feel that from the Blue Dogs. And that era, the Blue Dog era is sadly over, and Hillary Clinton got that message.

BALDWIN: OK. I felt some compliments flying.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I know. I know.

GRANHOLM: She's going to be fighting for young people too. It's just -- it's not fair to say that at all. She is going to be and has fought for young people her entire life, so that's really not fair.

BALDWIN: Thank you for both of your voices here, Governor Granholm, Nomiki Konst. Thank you so much.

GRANHOLM: You bet.

BALDWIN: This is competitive indeed. By the way, CNN will be live-simulcasting the "PBS NewsHour"

Democratic presidential debate. That is next Thursday night, February 11. Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, they will face off in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, starting at 9:00 Eastern. And you can watch it on CNN and your local PBS station.

Coming up, did Jimmy Carter just endorse Donald Trump? No, not exactly. But the former president would prefer Trump over Cruz. We will tell you why.

Plus, Kasich, Bush, Christie, New Hampshire is make-or-break time for all of those governors. What can they do over the course of the next few days to go all in? The Ben Stein, former Nixon speechwriter Ben Stein, has some ideas. We will chat with him.

And this horrific story, these two college students charged in the murder of a 13-year-old, the teenager, a cancer survivor. Now investigators may have discovered something online that could lead to a motive.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:38]

BALDWIN: New Hampshire primary, five days away. Tonight, Jeb Bush will stump with his mom. Former first lady Barbara Bush will be at the town hall in Derry, New Hampshire.

Throughout the race, Jeb Bush has said he is campaigning as his own man. But after finishing sixth in Iowa, he is bringing in the matriarch of his famously political family. The big question, will this work and, for that matter, what other maybe last-ditch strategies can help these different candidates whose political fates really may be hinging on the Granite State?

With me now, actor, comedian, economist, former Nixon speechwriter Ben Stein.

Ben Stein, how are you, sir? It's been too long.

BEN STEIN, FORMER NIXON SPEECHWRITER: It's been way too long. I'm great. How are you?

BALDWIN: I'm wonderful.

Let's just begin with, you know, listen, if you were in the trenches for these three governors, these three establishment candidates, Jeb Bush, Chris Christie, John Kasich, starting with Jeb Bush, what is the top of your strategy list?

STEIN: Well, it's not bringing out my mother, but -- especially because my mother's dead.

BALDWIN: Oh. STEIN: But I would say talk about your experience. Talk about his extremely good record as governor of Florida. Talk about getting things done.

So far, the campaign has been about flash, trash and cash, and, by the way, plenty of cash from where Mr. Bush is coming from. Let's talk about experience and getting things done. That's where Jeb Bush shines.

BALDWIN: Chris Christie?

STEIN: Same thing, been a very, very effective governor. He's a very witty guy. He's a brilliant, brilliant, super debater. I saw him talking about the flood and somebody said, why aren't you down in New Hampshire cleaning up the flood? And he said, what do you want me to do, get out a mop?

That was very, very clever of him. He's a clever, smart guy. I think he may not be presidential timber, just visually, so I think that's going to be a problem for him.

BALDWIN: Just quickly, all the tough New Jersey talk, taking on Marco Rubio, you think that's a good thing for him in these days?

STEIN: No, no.

BALDWIN: No.

STEIN: Marco Rubio at this point has an incredible shine coming off him. I think to call him the boy in the bubble is just condescending and silly and doesn't make sense at all.

Kasich in a way has the most -- or Kasich, however you pronounce it -- has the most impressive record, a great record in federal government and a great record state government, an extraordinarily good record. But he is the most boring guy I have ever seen on television in my entire life, including myself.

BALDWIN: Tell us how you really feel about John Kasich.

STEIN: I like him.

BALDWIN: OK, OK, OK. So that's your opinion on the governors.

Let me talk about Jimmy Carter. Obviously, he's the one who really put Iowa and the caucus on the map some decades ago. And he's a Democrat, so he was interviewed. He at the House of Lords today, and he was interviewed by a BBC reporter about who he would support. He's obviously supporting the Dem.

Then he was pushed and asked between maybe a Ted Cruz or a Donald Trump, and he picked Trump. And so Ted Cruz boasted to his supporters that Jimmy Carter would pick Trump if he had to choose.

Here was Ted Cruz.

(CROSSTALK)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That is real. Jimmy Carter yesterday, he said between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, I would support Donald Trump. And he explained why. Carter said because Trump is malleable. He doesn't have any core beliefs. So he will work with us and do what we want. But, Cruz, that guy believes this stuff.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so hold on, hold on, Ben Stein, because I want to be precise. Cruz took some liberty with what Carter said. If you read "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution" today, they're reporting that Carter would not pick Cruz because -- quote -- "Ted Cruz is not malleable."

[15:20:08]

My question to you, sir, not being malleable, not being able to compromise, is that something Ted Cruz should be boasting about?

STEIN: No, and Ted Cruz is an interesting character. I like him very much. He's a very intelligent guy with a great education.

But it's very interesting that he is not at all liked by his fellow senators. Does not speak well of his ability to get things done. On the other hand, I think Mr. Carter has nailed it. Basically, Trump is a liberal. Trump voted for Obama in 2008, has contributed a lot to Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice so-called charities. Trump is a fake conservative to the core, fake as fake can be.

BALDWIN: Finally, Bernie Sanders, he took part in the CNN town hall last night.

STEIN: I saw him.

BALDWIN: And he actually responded to his "Saturday Night Live" alter ego. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: I understand Larry David is hosting "SNL" this weekend. He does a pretty good imitation of you. Do you do a Larry David imitation?

SANDERS: Anderson, I'm going to -- I know you've been in journalism for a long time.

COOPER: I have. Are you doing your Larry David right now?

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: It's true. I am Larry David. And you didn't get it.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: "I am Larry David." I mean, it's like you close your eyes and you almost hear the same -- you almost hear the same person.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Do you think Larry David's portrayal, Ben, of Bernie Sanders on "SNL" once before and then this upcoming weekend, do you think that's actually helped him in this race?

STEIN: I think everything has been helping him.

I think he has tapped into a mood in American young people which is saying we want a change, and we especially want to get those student loans off our back. And this is a guy to do it. He's an old guy, but he understands we don't want to pay off these student loans. I think Sanders has tapped in brilliantly. He's an old guy. He's two or three years older than I am. But he's a damn smart guy. And he sees which way the wind is blowing. He's a very impressively smart guy.

BALDWIN: Ben Stein, thank you, as always. Thanks.

STEIN: My honor. My honor.

BALDWIN: Donald Trump, by the way, sits down with Anderson Cooper for a live interview this evening, "A.C. 360," 8:00 Eastern. Do not miss that here on CNN.

Coming up next, Chris Christie and Jeb Bush reportedly, some of their operatives, their campaign operatives back-channeling with one another, going after Marco Rubio. We have the details on the behind- the-scenes maneuverings coming up.

Also ahead, Bernie Sanders admits he could have done a better job handling the crisis at the VA hospitals across the country. We're going to dig into his record on veterans issues coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:04]

BALDWIN: Republican rivals Chris Christie and Jeb Bush may be communicating in order to attack a mutual target, that being Marco Rubio.

Apparently, the Bush and Christie camps are worried about Rubio's post-Iowa bounce heading into the New Hampshire primary. Both candidates have unveiled fresh attacks on Rubio, Christie unleashing some pretty blistering lines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Marco Rubio hasn't accomplished one thing in his entire career. The guy has sat in the United States Senate for five years and doesn't have one major accomplishment, that Marco Rubio has been the most protected, coddled candidate in this entire race, where he gives the same 60-second canned answers.

Let the boy come out of the bubble. Let's see what he can take, whether he can take the heat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That's Chris Christie. The jabs from Jeb Bush a bit more mild. He emphasized his strong support among Florida officials who have worked with him and Rubio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You look at the three statewide elected officials that are in Florida, all of them are supporting me. A majority of the congressmen are supporting me. A majority of the state Senate and state House members are supporting me.

It's not that they don't like Marco. It's they know I'm a proven leader. And he hasn't shown that leadership skills, because he hasn't been in a position to do it. Is that -- that's not attacking. That's just reality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And when you read a piece in "The New York Times" today, there is shared concern about Rubio that's prompted some back-channel discussions between the Bush and the Christie campaigns.

Let's go to CNN "INSIDE POLITICS" contributor Jonathan Martin, who broke that story for "The Times," joins me now from New Hampshire.

Talk to me, Jonathan, more about this back channel. What do you know?

JONATHAN MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, basically you have got some operatives in the two campaigns who, like a lot people who work in politics, have longstanding relationships.

And in this case, they have a mutual interest and they have an alliance of convenience. They have got to stop Marco Rubio from emerging here and basically solidifying his claim as the establishment candidate going forward into South Carolina.

If they can't do it here, it's going to be awfully hard going forward. And so they're trying to figure out ways informally to slow down the Rubio train. And it's pretty clear, Brooke, from the clips that you just played that the division of labor very much includes Christie doing the attack lines.

And I think Jeb is doing some of his share, but I think Jeb's contribution is much more in the way of his super PAC attacking Marco Rubio. But if you look at those Chris Christie lines, I mean, he is just going after Rubio something fierce, oh, my gosh. BALDWIN: He is. He is. And I have had a couple different folks on

saying might not be a great idea. Maybe it worked in New Jersey. Might not work when it comes to this presidential nomination contest.

That said, I'm curious, Jonathan, when we talk about maybe some of the operatives back-channeling all for the -- for the common good...

MARTIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: ... which is getting Marco Rubio, you know, down, down...

MARTIN: Right.

BALDWIN: ... in the finish perhaps in New Hampshire, how -- how uncommon is this kind of communication?

MARTIN: Actually, if you look at past presidential campaigns --