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Clinton, Sanders Debate in Milaukee. Aired Midnight-1a ET
Aired February 12, 2016 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And its midnight here in New York. You're watching the late live 360 coverage of tonight's Democratic Debate in Milwaukee. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, just two days after a big night New Hampshire primary night for him and a bruising one for her. We look at what each candidate faces after tonight, as well as a big day of developments for both as they get ready for Nevada and South Carolina.
The stakes, already high, are only growing after the debate. It was, by and large, a civil exchange, however things got heated, with the two clashing over President Obama; take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today Senator Sanders said that President Obama failed the presidential leadership test, and this is not the first time that he has criticized President Obama. In the past he's called him weak, he's called him a disappointment, he wrote a forward for a book that basically argued voters should have buyers' remorse when it comes to President Obama's leadership and legacy. I just couldn't disagree more with those kinds of comments.
You know, from my perspective, maybe because I understand what President Obama inherited, not only the worst financial crisis, but the antipathy of the Republicans in Congress, I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for being a president (inaudible, cheering and applause) and has sent us into the future and it is a -- the kind of criticism that we heard from Senator Sanders about our President I expect from Republicans. I do not expect from someone running for the Democratic nomination to succeed President Obama.
BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANIDATE: That is -- Madam Secretary, that is a low blow. Last I heard, we lived in a democratic society. Last I heard, a United States Senator had the right to ace agree with the President, including a President who has done such an extraordinary job. So I have voiced criticism. Maybe you haven't. I have, but I think to suggest that I have voiced criticism, this blurb that you talk about, you know what the blurb said? The blurb said that the next president of the United States has got to be aggressive in bringing people in to the political process. That's what I said. That is what I believe.
[Cheering and applause]
SANDERS: President Obama and I are friends. As you know, he came to Vermont to campaign for me when he was a Senator. I have worked for his re-election, his first election and his re-election. But I think it is really unfair to suggest that I have not been supportive of the President. I have been a strong ally with him on virtually every issue. Do senators have the right to disagree with the President? Have you ever disagreed with a president? I suspect you may have.
[Applause]
CLINTON: Senator, what I am concerned about is not disagreement on issues, saying that this is what I'd rather do, I don't agree with the president on that, calling the president weak, calling him a disappointment, calling, several times, that he should have a primary opponent when he ran for re-election in 2012, you know, I think that goes further than saying we have our disagreements. As a senator -- yes, I was a senator. I understand we can disagree on the path forward, but those kinds of personal assessments and charges are ones that I find -- Senator, if you'd like to respond to -
SANDERS: One of us ran against Obama; I was not that candidate.
[Applause]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: From the stage the action moved right into the spin room. We spoke with Clinton Campaign Chairman John Podesta in the last hour. right now Brianna Keilar has his counterpart on the Sanders' side, Sanders Campaign Manager, Jeff Weaver; Brianna?
BRIANNA KEILER, CNN CORRESPONDENT, via satellite: That's right, Anderson. Jeff, I do want to ask you, just -- and this is something I asked John Podesta, your assessment, I and know you think that your candidate won -
JEFF WEAVER, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, BERNIE SANDERS, via satellite: I do as a matter of fact.
KEILAR: What was your assessment of this debate and how it compared to other showdowns between these two?
WEAVER: Well I thought there was certainly a hard-hitting contrast on the issues, which I thought, actually, in many ways very positive for voters to be able to see the differences between the candidates, you know, whether it's dealing with Wall Street or whether it's on foreign policy or immigration or a number of the other issues they talked about tonight. So I thought it was a good discussion of the issues for the voters who are going to be making their decision in the next few weeks.
KEILAR: Secretary Clinton's accusation towards Bernie Sanders was that he's overpromising; he's making campaign promises that he can't deliver on. It seemed like, specifically on health care, the Senator's answer was to say, look at Canada, look at these other countries, they pay less for health care. Is that sufficient enough, in terms of specifics, to make his case [00:05:02] that people will actually be paying less for health care, overall, but more in taxes?
WEAVER: Well, look. I mean, we handed out, at the last debate, our proposal which was, you know, scored by an independent academic who deals with health care, so it's not like those numbers were generated by the Sanders' campaign. Those are from an outside expert. So, in fact, we can save substantial amounts of money by going to a single- payer health care system. You're going to have the average family, in the middle of the economy, a family of four making $50,000 is going to save, they're going to net $5,000 a year in savings.
KEILER: But I -- I covered congress and that's why I know that numbers can be fudged a little bit, of course. What is your answer to that, where she's saying there's so many outside saying it's going to cost a lot of money?
WEAVER: Well let's - let me just say this, in terms of fudging numbers, Secretary Clinton tonight criticized Senator Sanders not "paying for his programs." Every program he has proposed he has paid for. She has proposed about $900 billion in spending and about 300 billion in taxes. So they're about two thirds shy of paying for their programs. So they can say they've paid for everything, but until they actually pay for everything they haven't paid for everything.
KEILAR: And lastly, when we spoke a few days ago in New Hampshire I said are you going to Nevada and you said you're going to try. Has this changed?
WEAVER: Absolutely not; no, we're going to Nevada.
KEILAR: are you going to succeed?
WEAVER: I'll let you know on February 20th at the caucuses.
KEILAR: All right, Jeff Weaver, thank you so much for joining us here in the spin room; Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Brianna, thank you so much. Plenty to talk about with our panel, and that is where they had them. I think Hillary Clinton is going to stop off in South Carolina. Nevada is obviously the first battle for the democrats; coming up next for the republicans it's South Carolina.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And they're standing in Milwaukee which will be important down the road, an important Democratic state. The union references were maybe about the Scott Walker fights, but most of this debate, from the get-go, when they're talking about immigration, criminal justice reform, they're very aware they're going to Nevada where you have Latinos and African-Americans, who make up about 30-percent of the electorate, that's what it was last time. The Latino population has grown a bit since then; and then South Carolina where African-Americans will make up a majority. I think it was 53-percent last time. Both candidates acutely aware of that as they slug this out.
Look it's one to one. Hillary won Iowa and Bernie New Hampshire. This is the momentum phase, the next two contests, because then we get into the delegate phase. Once we get into March you have so many states --
ANA NAVARRO, JEB BUSH SUPPORTER: And I think that's why - I think that might be why we heard the undecided voter that was interviewed say, you know, that Bernie Sanders had spoken to her a little bit more than Hillary because I think the expectations on her, when it comes to that Obama coalition of Hispanics, of African-Americans, is much greater than what it is on Bernie Sanders. Today he made a point to practically bringing back every domestic policy issue question to the race, to the minority question, to the woman issue. I think they both did a good job at not
pandering, sticking to the issues and making their arguments via the issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he said something that was interesting. She was asked questions about the historic nature of her candidacy. She was given the opportunity to speak to young women in particular. I think it took until the second answer until she got it right. When it then came back to Bernie, if I heard this correctly, he made passing reference to the historic nature of his election, which I took as religion although he didn't clearly express it as such and that's not something that I've heard him reference in the past.
NAVARRO: See, that's where I think he missed an opportunity because a lot of people don't know Bernie Sanders' story, don't know his history. This is a guy from a little state from Vermont, who has not been on the national stage and he could have really filled in the blanks.
COOPER: Let's play the sound bites so everybody knows what we're referencing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MODERATOR: Senator, do you worry at all that you will be the instrument of this thwarting history, as Hillary Clinton keeps claiming, that she might be the first woman president?
SANDERS: Well, you know, I think from a historical point of view, somebody with my background, somebody with my views, somebody who has spent his entire life taking on the big money interest, I think a Sanders victory would be a historical accomplishment as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: (Inaudible) faith, but I think he also referenced democratic socialism -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wears his secularism on his sleeve, maybe a little too much so.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He's no Joe Lieberman. He's not a religious candidate. He doesn't like to talk about himself, as you -- as you know, it doesn't come naturally.
COOPER: Although when we asked about it at the town hall he say he's a person of strong faith. BORGER: Right.
BILL PRESS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That question on both of them, by the way, on their faith at that town hall was remarkable.
BORGER: Yes, that was good.
COOPER: It was very good.
PRESS: But I admire that about Bernie here, in the sense that, you know, the "New York Times" ran this big article today. He's the first Jew in American history ever to win a primary, and ever to win delegates in any national convention. Now, Bernie's not bragging about it. He didn't mention it when he had the opportunity tonight. That would have been appropriate for him to say. He just referenced given my background on both his democratic socialism and his faith that that would also be of some historic significance. I thought it was just the right tone on that.
PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: My counsel to him would have been, on [00:10:02] all of these things, wherever possible, localize, humanize, personalize. Bernie's very good about talking about the people but not people individually. Hillary often has the same problem. I really noticed today when she talked about Dontre Hamilton, the boy who killed in Wisconsin. She talked about Wisconsin labor unions. So clearly she got the memo to localize.
What's interesting is you drew it out of both of them. Me, I know Hillary very well. I don't know Bernie as well, but I'm told he doesn't like talking about his personal background either.
COOPER: No.
BEGALA: And one time he did, though, and I think he missed an opportunity, this is like the speech coach in me. He's talking about how his parents immigrated from Russia.
BORGER: Poland.
COOPER: Poland.
BEGALA: Roland, I'm sorry; It's an all-American story, and it just makes your heart swell, but he's reticent to tell it and that's, in some ways, admirable as a human being but, as a political hack, like, Senator, you've got to tell that story because it makes you part of the American dream.
COOPER: Is the same of Hillary Clinton? You now her, obviously -
BEGALA: Yes.
COOPER: -- extremely well. When she talks about policy it seems, which is what I liked about the town hall format where you had that rabbi asking her a question which clearly she hadn't been asked before and, you know, she actually was clearly thinking about it.
BEGALA: She's actually got really deep -
NAVARRO: We've actually heard Hillary Clinton talk a lot about her mom and her experiences growing up. I think she's done it a lot more than he has. I'm telling you, we don't know his personal story.
DONNA BRAZILE, VICE CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: (Inaudible) closing remarks. I just went back and played some during a commercial break, when she started talking about she's fighting for those left behind; she wants to remove the barriers. I thought for the first time Hillary really gave a cogent message of why she's running. You know, she talked about the women who are still looking for real wages and the gay and lesbian community. I thought it was an inclusive closing but it also went to this point of why she's running. What is she trying to do? and I thought tonight she answered that question.
COOPER: We've got to take a quick short break. A lot more ahead to talk about with our panel, including how closely some of the claims made on stage square with the facts. A reality check when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:15:32] COOPER: -- debated for just under two hours tonight in Milwaukee, made more than a few factual claims. A bit earlier we played the sound of the candidates talking about who's financing their campaign. Tom Foreman is here with a reality check on that; Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, both of these candidates wanted to say things tonight about how they're paying for all this campaigning; listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: We both have a lot of small donors. I think that sets us apart from a lot of what's happening on the Republican side.
SANDERS: I'm the only candidate up here, of the many candidates, who has no Super PAC.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: So both of them are trying to create impressions here. Let's look at the real money they have raised and talk about that some.
Hillary Clinton, so far, has raised more, is $114 million to about $75 million for him; and you heard her say that "we both have a lot of small donors." That's true. If you break it out in terms of their small donors, people who give less than $200, they both have a lot. That's a general term. He has many, many more than she does. More than 70-percent of his support is from those small donors. Hers, only about 16-percent. She's getting a lot more money from big money donors; that's simply a fact. She did not mention that.
What about Bernie Sanders saying he has nothing to do with Super PAC's? Well that's not entirely forthcoming either. There is at least one out there that has raised $2.3 million to support his campaign. It's not operated by his campaign. He's even said at times that he's not interested in anyone doing something like that, but it does exist. He didn't
mention it. She, by the way, has a lot more Super PAC money, as well.
In the end when you look at all this information, and you know the impressions you're trying give, though, you have to look at those statements, Anderson, and say they both said things that were technically true, but because of what they left out it was misleading.
COOPER: All right; Tom Foreman. Tom, thanks very much. Back with our panel now. David, you had some points you wanted to make.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISOR: I think we've been very positive about the debate. I think it was a very good debate. but I think one important thing we haven't talked about is how different this debate was tonight from what we might have heard when Bill Clinton was running. This was a debate that was all about how to fix problems by growing government. There wasn't a sentence about how to grow the economy or about how to grow jobs in the entire debate. Bill Clinton would have been talking about innovation, how do move things in this new age, we create new industries, how do we go green, all those kinds of things and in that sense it was like wow, this is the center of gravity has really moved to the left in this democratic party.
BORGER: She's reacting to Sanders.
GERGEN: She's reacting not only to Sanders - yes, absolutely.
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But I think one of, to your point, I think one of his shortcomings is that in addition to banging Wall Street the way that he does, he should say something about the virtue of small businesses in this country and entrepreneurship. I've never heard him use the "e" word but if we would speak in those terms I think it would give him additional credibility.
COOPER: We also heard from Secretary Clinton about well, I'll get rid of waste in government and I feel like don't we hear that all the time?
SMERCONISH: But no specifics.
COOPER: There's never any -
GERGEN: Waste, fraud and abuse?
COOPER: Right.
BORGER: Like the Republicans did to Ronald Reagan.
BRAZILE: She said that she will consolidate training programs and then she would find ways to make certain other areas in labor and other more efficient. So she didn't get into the weeds but -
[Cross Talk]
COOPER: This is not a criticism of her, but I don't know of any politician who would ever say, you know, let's increase inefficiencies in government. Everybody says we're going to pay for this by eliminating waste in government.
BORGER: Right, because you don't want to raise taxes; that's the other alternative. Bernie Sanders says, okay, I'm going to raise taxes but your health insurance premiums are going to go down so much that you'll end up on the positive side of the ledger.
[Cross Talk]
BRAZILE: -- the Defense Department.
BEGALA: They both -- ought to be able to say here's three things in the government that they ought not to be doing. Every republican ought to say here's three things the government does great and we I want to increase. I mean, if they had a lick of sense - the truth is, we have a huge government, that does a lot of great things for a lot of great people and screws up a lot of things. We ought to be able to have like an honest conversation -
BORGER: Bernie Sanders said he would cut defense --
BEGALA: He did.
BORGER: -- when first asked about -
BEGALA: He first gave the speech about waste in government -
BORGER: Right.
BEGALA: -- which is interesting coming from a democratic socialist. Then he said --
NAVARRO: And he gave a speech about hypocrisy, you know, going after Republicans, which I thought, you know, he wasn't speaking to me but he certainly speaking to his base. But I just got the feeling that neither of them grew their tent much, spoke to their people, spoke to their base, but did they get anybody that's on the fence?
KING: Growing the tent's an interesting way to put it in the sense if you look at the first two contests so far, Iowa and New Hampshire, Republicans [00:20:01] turn out is up in both states. Democratic turnout is down in both states since 2008. So Republicans feel right now that they have the energy. Now much of that -- you know, Republicans think, you know, we have a chance to get the White House back after eight years, so there's logic to that but some people say it was then Senator and President Obama who brought a lot of new voters into the fold and for all the success Senator Sanders has, and it is considerable success in getting support from young people and support from independents, that there's not a ground swell yet. There's no evidence that the democratic excitement, if you will, is as high.
NAVARRO: Well, John, if you're a republican watching -
SMERCONISH: But John [cross talk] deserves the credit and the blame for that. They need Donald Trump on the democratic side of the aisle if they really want to drive their participation.
BRAZILE: We spent the lion's share of not just our coverage, but the entire political conversation since 2012 has been about 2016 and who would replace President Obama. I'm not surprised the turnout, right now, seems to be on the republican side but come November that will flip.
[Cross Talk]
NAVARRO: Well I don't know. Let me tell you something, if you're a republican and you watched the debate tonight -
BRAZILE: I'm giving you Kool-Aid tonight. Free Kool-Aid; drink it.
NAVARRO: Girl, you know you need to give me more than Kool-Aid. Kool-Aid doesn't do the trick for me, but if you're a republican and you watched the debate you're terrified, okay, because you'll have to choose between one candidate who can't stop thinking about yesterday and another guy who wants to redistribute my wealth.
COOPER: David?
GERGEN: Why would you be terrified about the general election?
NAVARO: No, no, no. You're terrified about you heard --
COOPER: Either of the Democratic candidates.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not terrified to have Donald Trump as your nominee?
NAVARRO: I'm horrified.
GERGEN: What was missing here was the sense, you opened tonight by talking about what the turmoil in financial markets and the concern now with oil going to $20 that the economy may be really slowing down.
COOPER: There was no reflection of that.
GERGEN: No, there wasn't. There no reflection of that. How are we going to get this economy to grow? I mean, that's what is creating so much hardship among so many people. The economy is growing at half the rate it used to grow and there's no discussion of how do we get this thing back on track and get this engine moving again?
BORGER: The discussion was more about -- or the subtext of the -
GERGEN: What I should do for you.
BORGER: Well, what I can do for you and also how do we get the Obama coalition together without Obama because that's what these candidates were working on tonight. GERGEN: Right.
BORGER: Don't you think? I mean, they were trying to appeal to voters and say come out and vote for us, even though President Obama is not at the top of the ticket anymore; and that's a challenge for Democrats and I'm not so sure that either one of them did that tonight, in a general election sense.
PRESS: Could I raise I think the weirdest part -- you said what's lacking in the debates. I was just going to raise the weirdest part, I think, of the whole debate was this debate over - this argument over Henry Kissinger.
[Laughter]
PRESS: I mean, why was Hillary wrapping herself in the arms of Henry Kissinger as a role model.
COOPER: Before we continue this, let's play that because it is sort of a fascinating (inaudible).
NAVARRO: Young people, go Google Henry Kissinger right now.
COOPER: Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: In her book and in this last debate, she talked about getting the approval, or the support, or the mentoring of Henry Kissinger. Now, I find it rather amazing, because I happen to believe that Henry Kissinger was one of the most destructive secretaries of state in the modern history of this country.
[Applause]
SANDERS: I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. I will not take advice from Henry Kissinger and in fact, Kissinger's actions in Cambodia, when the United States bombed that country, overthrew (inaudible), created the instability for (inaudible) part in the Khmer Rouge to come in, who then butchered some 3 million innocent people, one of the worst genocides in the history of the world. So count me in as somebody who will not be listening to Henry Kissinger.
MODERATOR: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I know journalists have asked who you do listen to on foreign policy and we have yet to know who that is.
SANDERS: Well it ain't Henry Kissinger, that's for sure.
CLINTON: That's fine, that's fine.
[Laughter & Applause]
CLINTON: I listen to a wide variety of voices that have expertise in various areas. I think it is fair to say whatever the complaints that
you want to make about him are, that with respect to China, one of the most challenging relationships we have, his opening up China and his ongoing relationships with the leaders of China is an incredibly useful relationship for the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRESS: The context, I think it's important, there is -
COOPER: By the way, Bill, I like that you're adapting Sanders now, his wagging of the finger.
PRESS: You know why? Because Hillary was using -
COOPER: I know. I know.
UNIDENTIFIED: Like in Brooklyn catching a cab thing.
PRESS: So the context was they were asked who are the political leaders you admire and Bernie first said FDR and Winston Churchill and Hillary said Nelson Mandela, so far so good, right; and then Bernie threw in there yeah, [00:25:01] but you also met with Henry Kissinger and I thought rather than let it drop --
NAVARRO: Can I give a little context?
PRESS: Can I just finish, just a sec?
NAVARRO: Henry Kissinger is 93 years old.
PRESS: Thank you. The point I wanted to make is, first of all --
NAVARRO: Who's making the argument about age?
PRESS: -- if you look at 90-percent of democrats are going to say who is Henry Kissinger and the other 10-percent are going to say they hate him. So I didn't understand why Hillary made such a big point -
[Cross Talk]
BEGALA: A president actually has to get advice from all kinds of people and Clinton's first six months in office, Richard Nixon kept trying to reach out to him, Gergen remembers this, and an aide to Nixon, at the time, contacted me. The old man's been writing Clinton three or four times. He hasn't heard back. Nixon thought Hillary was intercepting the letters and burning them.
[Laughter]
COOPER: Really?
BEGALA: That's what he told me. So I went to the President and I said Mr. President, President Nixon wants to see you. Oh, that's great. Nixon came in and they met for a long time and mostly talked about Rus - I wasn't in the meeting, but President Clinton later said mostly talked about Russia and the guy was really smart. Now, was that wrong for Bill Clinton to reach out to Nixon? Of course not.
GERGEN: President Clinton told me the best advice he ever got on the Soviet Union came from Richard Nixon.
COOPER: Really?
GERGEN: Yes;
PRESS: We're talking about Henry Kissinger. I'm saying -- I understand talking to Richard Nixon, but not Henry Kissinger.
COOPER: Let's take a quick break. Just ahead, more on why appealing to African-American voters so crucial to both candidates and where it will matter most, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We spoke a bit about how each candidate focused heavily on civil rights, especially with regard to police action, drug laws and incarceration.
[00:30:00] Given the makeup of the coming primaries especially in South Carolina, how well these candidates reach African-Americans could make, obviously, a big difference. John King is with us at The Wall to look at some of the numbers behind the (Inaudible).
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So let's just show, Anderson, we'll bring up the national African-American population. The deeper the color the higher percentage of African-Americans in that area. Let's just go where we've been. You have the vote in Iowa out here, not many African-Americans. We just had the vote up in New Hampshire, not very many African-Americans. But the Democrats first, Nevada. But then they come to South Carolina, and it's quite obvious there. You can see it. So let's look at it from a different perspective. A much higher African-American population means the Democrats are courting their traditional, more diverse, base.
This is 2008, when you had the Clinton/Obama/John Edwards race. 43- percent of the vote then was white. See, John Edwards won it. Hillary Clinton was second, and then Senator Obama was third. But 55- percent of the vote was African-American, and it was a blowout. Senator Obama getting nearly 8 in 10 of those votes; Secretary Clinton getting the bulk of the rest. John Edwards campaign was in trouble at this point. But that is why you heard so much tonight from these candidates, even though they were standing in Wisconsin, they were talking to voters in Nevada, when they talked about immigration or the civil rights issues, criminal justice issues. This is the election they were courting.
Now, without Obama in the race the Clinton team thinks that's their natural constituency. One of the reasons they think that is this, back in 1992 Bill Clinton won 43 -- the African-American vote then was 43-percent. Remember, it was 55-percent in 2008, and Bill Clinton cleaned up, 77-percent of it. So their hope, the Clinton campaign, is they get that vote this time but you could really see Senator Sanders tonight trying to intensify his pitch. COOPER: Work hard for it.
KING: He's late to this came, and I don't mean that as a criticism. He's from Vermont, but he's been trying incredibly hard in the past several months to increase his support from African-Americans, and we'll see how it plays out.
COOPER: All right, do we have Nevada or is this just for South Carolina?
KING: This is for South Carolina. Nevada, the Latino population comes in there. You can go out and look at it from last time. You go back and look, in 2008, the white vote in Nevada was 65-percent and Hillary Clinton won. She won Nevada, and the African-American vote is 15-percent. Senator Obama, back in 2008, Senator Obama won that, but the Latino vote was 15-percent then and, again, Secretary Clinton did very well in the race, winning Nevada, ultimately losing the nomination. It was 15-percent back in 2008, most people expect it to be higher this time.
COOPER: All right, fascinating to look at the numbers. Let's talk more with our panel.
Donna, do you see much of a -- in South Carolina generational divide among African-American voters? Just as we've seen among young women voters going for Senator Sanders, overwhelmingly, over Senator Clinton. Do you see much of a break-down generationally?
DONNA BRAZILE, VICE-CHAIRPERSON, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, I think there's been two polls but I think from the information I've gathered from listening to people on the radio and others, yeah, I mean, you know, Hillary Clinton has to make her case, not just to young African-Americans but I think she has to make her case to Southerners in general. I mean, Paul and I hail from the South. Where are you from?
ANA NAVARRO, JEB BUSH SUPPORTER: Nicaragua.
[Laughter]
COOPER: Man, it's late.
BRAZILE: But there's no question she has to appeal to them. Many of them don't know her background. They don't know a lot about Bill Clinton. I mean, they were not around when Tony Morrison, the famous poet, called Bill Clinton the "First Black President." They may not understand a lot about that but I do believe this is going to be a competitive race because African-Americans are looking for someone who will not only support the legacy of Obama whether it was the economy, health care, et cetera, but somebody who will champion issues that may have got lost over the last eight years during his presidency.
NAVARRO: And, frankly, he best thing that could happen to our communities is that it is competitive. Make them sweat it. Make them earn it. Don't give it away for free. Look, it's not what they did for you yesterday. It's what they will do for you tomorrow. PAUL BEGALA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think he's got to be careful of not putting everything through simply a class basis. When he was asked about race relations, somehow he turned that to billionaires getting tax cuts. God bless him, he knows about it and he cares about it, but I'm not entirely sure that's the best way to talk about race issues is to talk about billionaires getting tax cuts.
[Cross Talk]
COOPER: He talks about racial inequality but then also pivots to economic inequality as part of that -
BEGALA: Right.
COOPER: -- inequality. In fact, let's listen to some of him talking about it tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are looking at an economy in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and sadly in America today, in our economy, a whole lot of those poor people are African-American.
MODERATOR: So race relations would be better under a Sanders' presidency than they've been?
SANDERS: Absolutely; because what we will do is say instead of giving tax breaks to billionaires we are going to create millions of jobs for low income kids so they're not hanging out on street corners. We're going to make sure they stay in school, are able to get a college education. I think [00:35:01] when you give low income kids, African- American, white, Latino kids, the opportunities to get their lives together they are not going to end up in jail. They'll end up in the productive economy, which is where we want them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Some of the messages we heard from Sanders. Bill?
BILL PRESS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There's no doubt, as others have said. I mean, the Clintons have, particularly, Hillary and Bill, but they've had long, deep, real relationships with the African-American community in the South. Governor of Arkansas and all the way through that Bernie Sanders does not have. He starts with that disadvantage. I believe, again, that the issues really do resonate across the board.
The other point I'd make is I hear the same argument about African- Americans in South Carolina that I heard about the Clinton supporters in New Hampshire. This was her territory. She had run four primaries up there. These are the people that you know, put her over Obama in 2008. They weren't there in New Hampshire. I don't think they can take it for granted in South Carolina either. If they do, it's a mistake.
NAVARRO: I remember hearing in 2008 everybody thought that Hispanics were not going to vote for the African-American, and guess what? Hispanics voted for the African-American. So I think we can't see everything through the spectrum of race, gender or ethnicity.
BRAZILE: And black voters are very sophisticated. They don't look at a candidate and say well, I've known you for 20 years and therefore I like you. But they also read and look at the issues. They have conversations, as you saw in the beauty parlor, you didn't see it in the restaurant because you didn't see a lot of African-Americans but it's late, I know, but there's no question that African-American voters are going to pay close attention to what the candidates are saying and they're going to make their decision based on what the candidates are saying to them now.
BEGALA: If you grab either one of them, like tonight, wake them up in the middle of the night, we know what they're going to say now. Bernie is going to wake up and say I don't like Wall Street. Hillary is going to wake up and say I do like President Obama. I frankly think her message going to South Carolina is a little bit better.
KING: I would - I'm not question helping President Obama helps you, but I will say, in Iowa and New Hampshire, predominately white constituencies, of course the affinity for Barack Obama is deeper in the African-American community, but a lot of people, you've met a lot of people, democrats, who said I love President Obama. I like Hillary Clinton, but I'm thinking
about Bernie Sanders or I'm more for Bernie Sanders because he's talking more about tomorrow or he's going to take me not where he's been. I think that is something she needs to get better at and that he is making connection with people. It's not that the democrats - democrats like Hillary Clinton, and respect her. Democrats love their president, but he is connecting, especially with the younger voters, by talking more about tomorrow, not about yesterday.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He's also talking identity.
BRAZILE: That's why her closing argument was so important.
BORGER: Yes, it was.
BRAZILE: Because it was about breaking down barriers and going further and that's the first time I hear her talk about the future in that way. I thought it was a good --
BORGER: Can I -- as long as we're talking about identity politics, the -- her answer on women was kind of interesting, because one of the moderators, I think it was Judy, I'm not sure, may have pointed out that 55-percent of women in New Hampshire supported Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton had a very good answer for that, which is I want to appeal to you, but I'm just glad that women feel empowered, my least favorite word but she clearly likes it.
I think she said, in answering the question about Madeleine Albright saying there's a special place in hell for women who don't support women I thought her answer was very good on that because it was -- it's clear this is a huge disappointment to her, particularly younger women voters, and she can't get them by saying huh-uh, you're making the wrong choice. How dare you not vote for me.
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISOR: There's a very definite generational divide starting to emerge now, we're seeing it across the board. MILLENNIALS VERSUS OLDER, and you know, it's understandable. You can see it with the "Black Lives Matter" movement. That is very much a younger group push on the campuses and so forth and I totally understand why African-Americans like that would be drawn to Bernie Sanders and what he's arguing.
What is disturbing is the way that some are going back to Bill Clinton's record and besmirch that and argue that he was not a good president for blacks as a reason for voting for Bernie Sanders. Blacks at the time did not agree with that. They saw -- they saw Bill Clinton as he got 83-percent in '92. He got 84-percent in '96. In the last three years of his presidency he averaged 89 to 90-percent approval among blacks. They thought he was a very good president at the time.
COOPER: Let's take a break. A lot more to talk about, including the question a lot of voters want answered: which candidate would make a better commander-in-chief? That's next. that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:43:25] COOPER: Well tonight's debate featured a few clashes, a lot of claims and counter claims, a few pieces of common ground. Here's another key moment on being commander-in-chief as well as women's issues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said -- I have said many times, you know, I am not asking people to support me because I'm a woman. I'm asking people to support me because I think I'm the most qualified, experienced and ready person to be the president and the commander in chief, --
[Applause and cheering]
CLINTON -- and I appreciate greatly Senator Sanders' voting record. We need a leader on women's issues, somebody who, yes, votes right, but much more than that, leads the efforts to protect the hard fought gains that women have made that, make no mistake about it, are under tremendous attack not just by the republican presidential candidates but by a whole national effort to try to set back women's rights.
So I'm asking women, I'm asking men, to support me because I'm ready to go into the White House on January 20th, 2017 and get to work on both domestic and foreign policy challenges.
SANDERS: Let me -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This is clearly an issue that Secretary Clinton feels she has an advantage over Sanders, although as we predicted before the debate, Sanders tries to come back saying experience is one thing, judgment is the other and I had the judgment to vote against the war in Iraq.
BORGER: And she says one vote is not a foreign policy and doesn't mean you have great judgment. I thought that was a pretty good comeback tonight.
COOPER: Right; she's saying you've got to focus on what's happening now, not what happened -
BORGER: Right.
COOPER: -- some -
[00:45:02] MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And she went a step further, she said that didn't hinder President Obama from naming me Secretary of State -
COOPER: Right.
BORGER: Right.
SMERCONISH: -- which I thought was a really great answer. I thought this was one of the most unexploited areas of his weakness, and that is the difficulty in perceiving him as a commander-in-chief. I don't really think she's closed that deal and there's some advantage to be gained.
BEGALA: I think you're right Michael. She'll probably chase him around a little bit more on that. It's not his area of expertise and it is hers and these are issues from hell. How are you going to take on ISIS? You're not going to take them on by fighting billionaires on Wall Street. And, anytime he gets off of Wall Street, his eyes, it's like a slot machine hitting bar, apple, lemon. It's just not registering. He just doesn't care. I don't mean he doesn't care but he's not an expert in it the way she is.
COOPER: It was also Interesting to basically hear her discount some of his specific ideas about bringing in coalition partners, bringing in the Saudis to cooperate with the Iranians. Well she just basically back handed that out, saying that's a non-starter.
KING: This is her wheelhouse, and she wants to emphasize this. However, if you look at what Democrats think is the number one issue, republicans are focused on terrorism, national security.
COOPER: Right.
BORGER: Right.
KING: Democrats are focused on the economy. So it's frustrating to Secretary Clinton because she thinks this should be the knockout punch against Bernie Sanders. I'm surprised she didn't bring up the testimony that we were talking about last night, of the intelligence official saying ISIS plans to attack the United States in the next year. I was surprised she didn't bring that up, saying who do you want in the Oval Office when that happens.
COOPER: Right.
GERGEN: I think one of the best punches of the night, actually, was against Trump, at that moment, when she said, look, we're trying to put up a Muslim coalition in that area. Is this man who wants to ban all Muslims in the United States have any possibility of putting together a coalition? Boy, that was pretty tough.
COOPER: I thought it was interesting also, and let's play that, but I think it was interesting that both candidates used Donald Trump to their advantage.
BORGER: Right.
GERGEN: Yes, he was hovering over this just like President Obama was.
COOPER: Right; Sanders brought him up repeatedly. Let's play some of -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: We need to do that throughout the country, but we need to understand that American-Muslims are on the front line of our defense. They are more likely to know what's happening in their families and their communities and they need to feel, not just invited, but welcomed within the American society. So when somebody like Donald Trump and others -
[Applause]
CLINTON: Stirs up the demagoguery against American-Muslims, that hurts us at home. It's not only offensive, it's dangerous. The same goes for overseas where we have to put together a coalition of Muslim nations. I know how to do that. I've put together the coalition that put on sanctions on Iran that got us to the negotiations table to put a lid on their nuclear weapons program and you don't go tell Muslim nations you want them to be part of a coalition when you have a leading candidate for president of the United States who insults their religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Is this where Sanders can start to, you know, try to bolster his credentials or bolster his -- she's clearly more well versed in the topics, whether or not voters care, whether or not voters believe, that means she makes better judgments, I don't know.
BORGER: I mean, he tried to take her on on 2008 when she criticized Obama for wanting to engage Iran and then said to her, well, you know, you're kind of inconsistent, essentially, and she threw it right back at him on Libya, you know. She said that he was inconsistent because he supported regime change in Libya and so I think she can punch him. I don't -- he's not good at punching back at her on this because clearly he just doesn't have the expertise, but there's a danger for her, which is she can't appear too hawkish in the Democratic Party. KING: And, again, in nine campaigns out of ten, talking about your experience as an asset. In this campaign, not necessarily so. People are looking for -- if there's just something in the water, people are looking for something different.
BEGALA: People are not looking for experience, it's strength. It's strength on this, and I think she did tonight. Bernie did seem out of his depth. What he needs to do, he needs a few generals and admirals who he's actually been talking to --
[Cross talk]
BEGALA -- drop a few names.
COOPER: She sort of hit him on that saying we don't know who your advisors are and went back to saying, well not Kissinger. we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with more from tonight's democratic debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[053:00] COOPER: As we've seen in other democratic debates this election season, there were many instances where Clinton and Sanders actually agreed with each other, and it's striking to see, considering some other debates that we've watched. Here's a sampling from tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: We both agree that we have to get unaccountable money out of our political system.
SANDERS: Nothing that Secretary Clinton said do I disagree with.
CLINTON: I completely agree with Senator Sanders.
SANDERS: I would hope that we could all agree.
CLINTON: We both share of the goal of universal health care. Both of us share the goal of trying to make college affordable. I think we're in vigorous agreement here.
SANDERS: Let me concur with the Secretary.
CLINTON: I think it's fair we don't have a disagreement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It was interesting, I don't know if it was just the way it was cut, but it did seem to me, just watching it, that it was more often her saying that we're in agreement, which was basically her trying to draw herself closer to him I would assume.
BRAZILE: And in previous debates he was the candidate that said I agree with Secretary Clinton. So it shows that there's a lot of unity in the democratic party and that will help us as we begin to focus on the future.
PRESS: I think she was trying to blur the differences, which were legitimate differences and she didn't want to get into that.
BEGALA: it was legitimate agreement. they served in the senate together for a couple of years. She's a much more moderate democrat, he's a socialist. They voted together 93-percent of the time. So if the democratic party, for good or for ill, I think it's good. Much more united. The republicans have real differences. From the Neanderthals to the Cro-Magnon's they're just so far apart, but the democrats, even a socialist is kind of agreeing with the moderate 93- percent of the time.
PRESS: Democratic socialist.
BEGALA: Sorry; as opposed to a republican socialist? I never understood why you said that.
KING: We're in the early chapters of two fascinating nomination battles, both are uncertain. Both are fascinating. So what we should focus on most of our time on them, but we are getting these debates quite a contrast, that we're going to see in November. Tonight you have two Democrats saying a path to citizenship in comprehensive immigration reform. And the republicans, no way.
You have two democrats saying my ultimate goal, different ways, but my [00:55:01] ultimate goal is to get to the universal health care. Republicans say we're going to repeal Obamacare.
COOPER: You have growing government versus shrinking government.
KING: They both say they're going to raise taxes on the rich. The republicans say no way; we're going to cut taxes on the rich.
BORGER: I think, yes. I mean, it's like alternate universe, right; and tonight Hillary Clinton was trying to occupy a little bit of Bernie Sanders' universe because she doesn't want to alienate those younger voters. She wants to kind of open their eyes that perhaps they could be drawn to her side which is why I don't think she -
GERGEN: I would wager that if she had won New Hampshire there would have been much less agreement than there was tonight.
BORGER: Exactly.
GERGEN: She would have been to the right of him on a number of issues, emphasizing the difference.
SMERCONISH: Thematically she doesn't have as clear a lane as he does. I mean, his worst detractor knows exactly what Bernie represents and what he stands for. What I saw tonight was her trying to lay claim to President Obama for these next several primaries. She wants people to know one thing and that is that -- that Bernie Sanders blurb Bill Press' book and it's critical of Barack Obama, and I'm saying that seriously.
PRESS: That's why I thought it was a good night for both candidates and a great night for my book.
COOPER: Sanders' wrote the forward according to Secretary Clinton, right? Let's end it there. Thanks, everyone; that does it for us. Thank you very much for watching. In a moment, an encore of tonight's PBS Democratic Debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
