Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Interview With Utah Lieutenant Governor Spencer Cox; Florida Mass Shooting Investigation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 17, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:35]

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.

We begin with some breaking news in the terror attack in Orlando. Today, two FBI agents visited a Florida mosque where the killer often went to pray. CNN has been told those agents questioned the mosque official about the killer's relationship with other members and those in the local Islamic community.

We're also learning today that the gunman visited holy sites in Saudi Arabia four years ago with a delegation from Islamic Center at New York University. Many in that group were Muslim officers with the New York Police Department and their families. And now questions about whether the FBI dropped the ball weeks before the attack.

The owner of this Florida gun shop says he contacted the agency when the killer came in looking to buy body armor and a large amount of ammunition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT ABELL, CO-OWNER, LOTUS GUNWORKS: When he was on his cell phone, he had a conversation in a foreign language. That was more concerning.

Then he came back and he was requesting ammo. So he wanted bulk ammo only. So, at that time, he declined any business and he left the store. We had no link, no contact. We had -- didn't know who he was, but we did contact authorities and let them know we just had a suspicious person that was in here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: CNN's Jessica Schneider live for us in Orlando.

What is the FBI saying about all of this, Jessica?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN ANCHOR: Don, the FBI is stressing the timeline on this and they're noting that the first thing that happened was the store clerk did see the man come into that gun shop in Jensen Beach, Florida, just a little bit south of where the shooter lived.

And they say that that man did request the body armor, did request the ammunition and then talked on the cell phone in a foreign language. Now, this store clerk contacted his manager. They contacted the FBI and gave the FBI some details. The FBI called them back. But the point to note, the FBI says, is that the gun shop owner did not make this connection that this was potentially Omar Mateen until after the Pulse nightclub shooting.

So, essentially, the gun shop owner didn't have identifying details about this person who had come in and raised suspicion. They didn't have any surveillance video and they certainly didn't have any purchase records since they turned this man away, so the FBI saying, since they had very little to work with here, they couldn't move forward in any investigation -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Jessica Schneider in Orlando, Jessica, thank you very much.

Now new information we're finding out about the killer's troubled past.

And for that, we turn to CNN's Brian Todd in Fort Pierce, Florida, with more on that.

What do you know, Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, in short, what we have been digging up over the past couple of days about Omar Mateen, we have found documents like these I'm holding right now from the school systems around here, basically showing a lifetime of red flags for Omar Mateen.

We have just found documents from the Martin County School System, where he went to high school, which indicate that Mateen was suspended from school for a total -- from high school from a total -- for a total of 48 days. And two of those incidents involved -- quote -- "fighting with injury," according to documents that we recovered there from the Martin County School System.

But also dug even further into this killer's past. These are documents I'm holding from the St. Lucie County Schools, where he went to elementary school, 176 pages, Don, worth of documents detailing all the discipline problems that Omar Mateen had going back at least to third grade.

I'm just going to read you a very quick passage. This one says he was verbally abusive, rude, aggressive, with much talk about violence and sex. That's when he was in third grade. He would have been about 8 years old. We talked to a classmate of his who went to school with him at Mariposa Elementary School in Port St. Lucie who said that one day in fourth or fifth grade, he threatened to bring a gun to school and kill everyone.

We have uncovered in these documents that he was disciplined 31 times between 1992, when he would have been about 6 years old, and 1999, when he would have been about 13 years old, Don. A long, long tortured history of discipline problems for Omar Mateen.

LEMON: Brian Todd in Fort Pierce, Florida, Brian, thank you very much.

I can't wait to talk to this next person. I want to bring in now former Michigan Congressman and CNN national security commentator Mike Rogers to get his expertise on this. He's also the host of CNN's new original series. It's called "DECLASSIFIED: UNTOLD STORIES OF AMERICAN SPIES." It premieres this Sunday night at 10:00.

And we are finding out about this killer's family, Mike Rogers, though not his wife.

[15:05:03]

So, first, you know, we learned about a possible attack and his involvement around 4:00 Sunday morning, about 4:00 on Sunday morning, and then the police showed up at this home of the gunman's sister. The sister then contacted her father, who lived just doors away.

So, this happened before the gunman was killed about two hours later. And any idea how police would have known that his identity at the point to go to his family's home?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there's probably several things.

They probably did an immediate review subsequent to the notification of the shooting and looked back at any of chatter that they may have had or any other leads that they may have had. And we can't rule out that they had other leads about this individual.

So they would go back. And that would be a normal course of business, saying, we have this shooting. They understood that the shooting was under way, so the local law enforcement was there to contain that.

Investigators were trying to probably make sure, OK, is there anything else we need to worry about? Can we get to the house? Are there other accomplices, are there bombs, explosives, other weapons? Is there something else that we can do to shut this down?

And, remember, he was communicating with his -- in his social media field with the -- with his girlfriend, at the very least. And he was publicly checking other Web sites. So, I'm sure, in real time, they were able to narrow this thing down to figure out who the shooter was by about 4:00 a.m. and probably earlier and got folks dispatched pretty quickly to the residence to try to, again, make sure that if there's anything else going on that they didn't know, that they could cut it off, B, or, C, if there's any other ammunition, weapons, other things that they could take off the street.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about those text messages, about him and his wife texting each other during the attack.

We know investigators are taking a close look at her. What exactly are they looking for in order to tie her to this attack, Mike?

ROGERS: Well, they're going to try to figure out did she actually know what his intentions were, which is key? Did she facilitate his actions that night? When she went to the store, did she know that he was buying ammunition specifically for a terrorist attack?

Did -- when he was going to the Disney property, did she know specifically that he was surveilling that particular location as a possible attack or other places? And when he went to the Pulse nightclub, apparently, she had to have been with him at least once. Was she, you know, again, party to the conspiracy to commit this horrendous act of murder?

So, that's what they're going to be looking for. It's not just enough to say, well, I tried to talk him out of it. The FBI is going to do a thorough investigation to see, all right, what really was your role and did you have the opportunity to pick up the phone and call the FBI or the local authorities to stop this mass murder?

That's what they are going to try to determine. Not an easy case to make, Don, I might add, but that -- I'm sure exactly where the investigation is going.

LEMON: So let's talk about, you know, investigative stories, because your new show premieres in Sunday night here on CNN. It's called "DECLASSIFIED." Tell us a little bit about it.

ROGERS: Well, if you love spy stories, spy vs. spy, you are going to love it. And if you want to meet the people who actually do this work, who are in the shadows normally, they tell the stories through their own words.

And it's -- I think it's such a powerful set of stories to tell people exactly what happens in the spy business, everything from the first woman who went to Moscow to run a Russian asset with the KGB chasing her all over, to FBI investigations into Chinese espionage right here in the United States, and all the intrigue that goes with it.

But, importantly, Don, it's told through these stories, very powerful stories that allow somebody to kind of walk and peek behind the curtain of how espionage really works in the real world. Pretty great stuff.

LEMON: Yes, it sounds like it. Thank you very much, Mike Rogers. Look forward to watching that. The show premieres Sunday 10:00 p.m. Eastern of course right here on CNN.

An emotional reunion, as a survivor and the police officer who pulled him from the club meet for the first time inside the hospital. We're going to show you what happened.

Plus, an elected official apologizes for the way he once treated gay people. He is going to join me live.

And news just in. An effort to -- is under way now by some Republicans to stop Donald Trump at the convention. Hear what they want to do with his delegates. This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:13:51] LEMON: Boy, it is creeping up, because the Republican National

Convention is just one month away.

And while you might think Republican leaders would be hyping their rallying cry of party unity around presumptive nominee Donald Trump, House Speaker Paul Ryan again is doing just the opposite. Ryan reporting, saying his fellow House members should -- quote -- "follow their conscience when it comes to backing Trump."

And now CNN is learning some GOP delegates are discussing creative ways to ditch the convention rules to cut Trump loose. What is going on here?

Mike Shields is here to talk about it. He's CNN delegate analyst and former chief of staff of the Republican National Committee. He also is a president of the super PAC dedicated to advocating for conservative issues and for electing Republicans to Congress.

I think he has the longest title of anyone I have ever introduced.

And also Tal Kopan is here, a political reporter here at CNN, and Ed O'Keefe, a political reporter for "The Washington Post."

I'm going to start with Tal.

Tal, you have been digging in on this and trying to figure out what's going on. One of the ideas being floated right now is freeing convention delegates who are bound to Trump and then so you want to unbound them. How would that work? How does that work?

TAL KOPAN, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, there are actually several ideas that are put forth, including one school of thought that says they're not bound at all.

[15:15:10]

This is not exactly one that's picking up a ton of steam, but there are those that say that you can already use the RNC rules against the RNC rules. Ultimately, what it looks like, though, is this is going to come down to a majority of delegates on the convention floor.

The rules committee will be tasked with putting into place the rules for this convention. Right now, the 2012 rules are operating, but the first order of business will be figuring out what they're going to do in 2016.

Then what that committee puts forward will ultimately have to be ratified by a majority of delegates on the floor. We are talking about that magic 1,237 number again. It's going to probably takes that many delegates to do anything like unbinding the bindings that are already in place.

LEMON: I thought we were done with that 1,237 number.

KOPAN: No.

LEMON: But we are not done.

So, Mike, I mean, is this real? Is there any chance that this could work?

MIKE SHIELDS, CNN DELEGATE ANALYST: Look, it's technically possible, as she just said.

And, look, the delegates make the decisions at the convention about their rules, their nominee, how they're going to operate themselves. So is it technically possible? Yes. Is it politically likely? I don't think so, not at this point. I think you would have to have -- I mean, something there are something like 30 or 40 delegates that have gotten on a phone.

I mean, you're talking 1,237. That's long ways from 1,237. Right? So, I think there's a lot more that politically would have to happen for Donald Trump to suddenly be a place where the delegates really want to unbind themselves and turn over what the voters did in the primary.

I think it's in his hands to stop it from happening. I think he can start performing as the leader of the party and really put this to rest. And if something was to happen, you might look back at this time and say, wow, this is where this kind of got started.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes, but talk about revolt, though, Ed. It would be a revolt among Republicans, and especially Trump supporters. They would not take this lightly.

ED O'KEEFE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Not at all. But, you know, the argument, as Tal laid out, is that only people who get to make this decision are the 2,472 delegates elected to the convention, and that if you can find about 56 of them in the rules committee, which meet the Thursday and Friday before the gavel comes down in Cleveland, and then if you can find 1,237 of them on the floor who are willing to vote for these changes, then you could have an open situation.

And most of the people that are involved in this, let's make this clear, Don, while they may have supported someone like Ted Cruz or John Kasich in the primaries, they're not necessarily saying that John Kasich or Ted Cruz should be the nominee. All they're saying is, if anything, this will compel Trump to come to the delegates, the folks that he's going to have to win over in order to get their support, make it clear to them that he's going to hold conservative positions on issues, and then become the nominee.

They have been very concerned just this past week, some of them that I talk to, about the fact that he was calling for changes in gun laws. That's a total violation of party orthodoxy that has stood for the last few years and that says that, you know, gun laws are settled and you shouldn't be talking about them or even thinking about changing them.

That combined with his comments about the Mexican judge in California, there's concern that what he said is racist, but also that he was essentially threatening to use his political power to punish a judge. They said imagine if he tried to do that as president. It would be a total violation of executive power.

So, on principle, these people are concerned. They believe they have just enough time over the next month to find enough delegates to support their efforts and we will see what happens. And it all comes as he is saying controversial things, his poll numbers are dropping, and he doesn't seem to be doing anything to win them over.

LEMON: OK. So, here's -- this is my question. Tal, I will get to you in a moment. I will get back to you, but I want to ask Mike this.

If this -- this is leverage. They're trying to garner some leverage against Donald Trump, but Donald Trump and his people have said all along it's up to them to come to him, not for him to go to them. Correct?

SHIELDS: Well, I mean, that might be Donald Trump's position. I actually disagree with that.

I think when you are going to lead a party, you have to reach out to the members of that party and say, come with me, let's work together. What can I do to lead you, not, hey, I won the nomination, you better get in line or else, or else this sort of thing will keep happening. These are not the stories that he wants to have in the press. He wants to be talking about Hillary Clinton and how he's going to win the general election.

And I think he has to sort of realize that he's in control of whether or not these stories are out there or not. If he focuses the party on Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, the party will line up behind him up and down the ticket. They all want to fight the Democrats and not make it about him and about these types of stories. I think that's in his control.

LEMON: Tal, I'm up against the clock. I will give you the last word, though.

KOPAN: Yes. I think, bottom line, it is very early to suggest that anything like this might happen, but what it is a reflection of the very real angst that is among some of the rank-and-file Republicans and Shields is right. It would be in Trump's interest to listen to that.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate all of you.

KOPAN: Thanks.

LEMON: All right.

Coming up, what Russian President Vladimir Putin just said about Donald Trump and the U.S. presidential race, Fareed Zakaria's conversation with Putin coming up.

[15:20:08] And next, an emotional reunion. A wounded survivor of the Orlando

nightclub attack meets the police officer who helped rescue him amid the chaos.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: And Alabama county is refusing to lower its flags to half- staff to honor victims of the massacre at a gay nightclub in Orlando. The refusal by officials in coastal Baldwin County after President Barack Obama and Alabama's governor ordered flags to be lowered.

A local commissioner said its flags are only lowered on Memorial Day and to commemorate deaths of government officials. Thousands of miles away, though, a prominent official has made a very public apology to the LGBT community.

[15:25:11]

And that's Utah's lieutenant governor, Spencer Cox. He spoke at a candlelight vigil for Orlando victims, and his speech went viral. Cox said, when he was growing up, he wasn't always nice to the kids who were gay. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV SPENCER COX (R), UTAH: I regret not treating them with the kindness, dignity and respect, the love that they deserved. For that, I sincerely and humbly apologize.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And there he is, joining me right me now, Lieutenant Governor Spencer Cox.

Thank you so much for joining us.

COX: Thanks, Don. It's great to be with you.

LEMON: You're a 40-year-old straight man. I want to know what triggered your change of heart.

COX: Well, I wish there was one thing I could point to, but it's really been kind of a journey over 20 years, and specifically as I have gotten to know more people from the LGBT community, just their love, their kindness, their patience with me.

It's amazing. When you try to reach out and get to know and love someone different than you, you find out remarkably that we're really not that different. And I know that sounds simplistic, but I think it's a truth and it certainly has been in my life.

LEMON: Why do you think -- I mean, it's -- it seems extraordinary that you would do this. I'm sure people do it all the time. I have actually had friends who have done similar things when I came out. But what exactly are you apologizing for? How did you treat gay

people when you were younger?

COX: Well, I wasn't -- you know, I wasn't a bully. I didn't hate. I wasn't that type of person.

But, first of all, I didn't know they were gay. I just knew they were different. And, again, like teenagers do, sometimes, I would make jokes, say things that were inappropriate, not necessarily to them, but about them on occasion. And I certainly didn't go out of my way the try to be friends with them.

And that's -- those are the things that I regret the most. And like you said, I think people are changing all the time, and I think it's OK to talk about it.

LEMON: You have kids, right?

COX: I do. I have got four kids, yes, yes.

LEMON: Did you have to explain your apology and your change of heart to your children? You have four, four children, right?

COX: Yes, four children, three boys and a girl.

We have had these conversations over the years. This isn't something that just happened. And that's why it's so surprising that this has gone viral. And it was never intended to be that way. And, again, I want to make sure it clear this is about the 49 people that tragically lost their lives.

But if we can help people have those conversations with their children -- and that's the beautiful thing about children and the millennial generation especially. They don't see these same divisions, I think, that many of us have seen or grown up seeing over the years, and that gives me hope for the future.

LEMON: And your fellow Republicans, how are they reacting to this apology?

COX: You know, I'm very pleased to say -- and, again, I never expected to get this kind of attention, but the -- there's been nothing but positive comments from the left and the right, just universally.

I think that's the crazy thing is that it seems like for whatever reason this is what people have felt, but no one had really said it. And so by giving voice to those feelings, people are feeling more comfortable to have that conversation.

And I have just received a lot of thanks. It's been very humbly and overwhelming from Republicans, as well as Democrats.

LEMON: I'm sure you were nervous doing it. And this was in essence a coming out for you, I mean, not necessarily coming out as gay, but it was a coming out for you. So, what were the feelings and emotions that you felt? How do you feel now? What was that process like for you?

COX: Well, so, first of all, I was asked by members of the LGBT community to come and to give the speech. And I said yes, because I was just devastated at what had happened

And then, when I said yes, there was this moment of panic, like, I have no idea what I'm going to say. And I have no idea why they would want to listen to me.

I -- this -- first of all, this is not the type of crowd I'm usually speaking to. And I'm certainly not the type of speaker that they're usually listening to and we are in the middle of campaign season. So, I didn't have time to prepare. I had about an hour before.

And I'm glad, because I was able to just write what was in my heart and then get up and give it. I hadn't even read through it. And I think, if I had taken time, I would have overthought it a little bit. And that's the problem with politics today.

I mean, we just go to our talking points. And it doesn't feel authentic. And for this crowd, I got to be authentic. And they let me be authentic. And I appreciate that.

LEMON: Hey, before I let you go, I have to ask you, do you have a message to your -- I wonder if you're going to be better when it comes to gay issues and legislation and voting and speaking up for LGBT -- the LGBT community?

But what do you say to Republicans, because Republicans are not -- don't have a good track record when it comes to supporting gay issues?

COX: Sure.

Well, what I would say to them is, look, let's start where we can.