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British MP Murdered During Divisive Brexit Campaigns; Orlando Gunman's Wife May Face Charges; Jesuit Priest Lashes Against American Catholic Bishops; Obama Renews Call for Gun Control, Vows to Destroy Terror Groups; McCain Blames Obama for Orlando Massacre; Sanders Pledges to Defeat Trump "Badly"; Trump Threatens to Go It Alone. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired June 17, 2016 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:01] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Jo Cox was 41 years old, married, two children.
British Prime Minister David Cameron says, quote, "We've lost a great star."
CNN's Max Foster joins us now from London.
So, Max, bring us up to date about the investigation, what police know at this point and also what do they know about the suspect?
MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we know is that he is 52 years old. He's been named locally, but the police have not even confirmed that, and they're very careful in these situations in the UK. They try to leave as much evidence to be unveiled at a court hearing and try to hold as much back as possible. But they do -- also there's a huge amount of interest in the story in the UK and what the motive might have been. We're not getting any real sense of that at the moment, we just know that they are not looking for anyone else in relation to this.
So one man in custody. They are not looking beyond that. They are questioning him and they are questioning witnesses who were there. So they want to know what they saw and heard, and that will inform what we learn about the motive.
AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Is there a lot of talk about security surrounding members of parliament? I'd imagine there's quite a lot of concern considering, you know, they don't get a security detail in the UK, and Jo Cox, was leaving the library, she was by herself and this happened in -- really in a brazen way.
FOSTER: And it really typifies what we're learning about her, that she was a very good local MP meeting her constituents regularly and weekly surgeries that called. They meet one-on-one with members of that constituency to discuss their concerns and take them up to London to address.
And certainly there -- well, there are more than 600 MPs and there is inevitably a big debate about security, whether or not they should be exposing themselves in that way. But if you're going to attach a detail to each member of parliament at each meeting with the constituency, you're talking about, you know, thousands of security officers, which isn't feasible in terms of costs. I think we can pretty much say that.
So what's the wider question? How do we address that? That's a big debate in parliament right now and certainly some members of parliament have cancelled their surgeries for today. They often hold them on a Friday, and they've cancelled them. So there's a big debate right now.
And a lot of credit also being given to Jo Cox for the way that she continued with these meetings and she did face threats like other members of parliament. This is a very heated debate right now, particularly around in the immigration debate and about the referendum debate.
VAUSE: And Max, as you say, police are yet to release a motive in this killing. But a number of people, a number of witnesses have reportedly said that they did hear the suspect yelling "Britain First" during this attack. "Britain First" is a far right Nationalist Political Party there in the UK. Their leader, Paul Golding, released a statement on Facebook. He condemned the murder and said any talk that Britain First was yelled at the scene is simply hearsay.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL GOLDING, LEADER, BRITAIN FIRST: The media are acting grossly irresponsible to try to incriminate our organization, Britain First, in this heinous crime because we had nothing to do with it. We would not condone actions like that. We carry out protests. We -- we stand at elections. I recently stood in the London elections, received over 100,000 votes. So that's the kind of political activities that we carry out.
Yes, we do direct actions sometimes. We invaded a Halal slaughterhouse because we disagree with Halal slaughter, but this kind of thing is disgusting. It's an outrage. And I hope that the person that carried out this heinous crime will get what he deserves, probably not in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So, Max, explain what is the possible connection here between Jo Cox and Britain First?
FOSTER: Just that she was completely opposite ends of the political spectrum. She was a white Labour MP. You often hear members of Britain First criticizing those on the left who are white MPs who are promoting immigration, they would argue. And she would just argue that she was saying that there are benefits to immigration and that part of the world, it's a very contentious debate. And when you talk about the referendum coming up next month, immigration in the area of Yorkshire is one of the high points of the agenda.
But there's no evidence that Britain First in any way were involved in this. Whether or not it was politically inspired, we'll wait to find out. But certainly a lot of the British media are increasingly talking about this comment, Britain First, but it seems to suggest that they may think there's something in it. But we are not hearing from the police is that that has been confirmed, only that they are trying speak to witnesses to find -- to try to find out what was heard.
They are not dismissing it at this point. But it certainly does define her politics in a way that she would absolutely stand up for everything that Britain First -- she would stand against everything that Britain First stands for.
WALKER: Yes, and no matter where you stood on politics, though, she garnered a lot of respect, didn't she? Tell us a little bit about how Jo Cox is being remembered, especially by her colleagues.
FOSTER: Well, what's interesting is that she wasn't a national figure because she'd only been an MP for a year.
[01:05:06] But she really symbolized what happened of the last election, which was there was a -- there's a desperate need for more female MPs to get more diversity in parliament. So they had these lists of candidates which only included women and she represented that, but she really took control of her political destiny and within a year, she's had a huge impact in parliament, standing up for women's rights but also for the refuge rights as well, and was very involved in Syria.
So she set up working groups in parliament, really trying push that up the agenda. And she had a huge mark in her first year in parliament, and we are learning now from the many people that knew her, that she was having great success and there's this huge sense of loss in parliament, that a huge potential has been lost in a rising star. You keep hearing that she was a rising star. But across the political divide, everyone really believed in what she was doing and she really played into the referendum debate in a positive way as well, we're hearing.
VAUSE: And Jo Cox, as you say, very much in favor of immigration. She was very proud of the cultural diversity of her electorate. In fact, she spoke with pride about that diversity during her maiden speech last year to parliament.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JO COX, MURDERED BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Our communities are being deeply enhanced by immigration, be it Irish Catholics across the constituency, or Muslims from India, Gujarat or from Pakistan, principally from Kashmir. And whilst we celebrate our diversity the thing that surprises me time and time again, as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: And she was also in favor of Britain staying in the EU. She mentioned that, too, in the same speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COX: And many businesses in Yorkshire also want the security and stability of Britain's continued membership of the European Union. A cause I look forward to passionately championing in this place and elsewhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So, Max, given all of that, what impact is her murder now having on the entire issue of the Brexit -- that the referendum set next week?
FOSTER: Well, I mean, in a very clear way, the referendum campaign has been suspended, a least for a day. I'm joined actually by Andrew Blick, he's a lecturer on policies and contemporary history at King's College. He's also been following very closely the whole referendum campaign. It was getting horribly contentious, wasn't it? But we're learning from -- about her that she represented a measured part of the debate.
ANDREW BLICK, POLITICS AND CONTEMPORARY HISTORY LECTURER, KINGS COLLEGE: Well, that's right, and I think right now, clearly, everyone is going to want to be seen to be responding sensitively to what happened and taking a moment not to campaign, not to be involved in this aggressive battle.
Obviously campaigning will resume at some point. We can't escape the referendum that is coming next week. But the interesting question then is what kind of tone will the campaign have? Will it change?
FOSTER: Local media making so much of this comment that was allegedly heard, which was Britain First, during the attack. If that proves to be true that this was politically motivated how can the campaign continue without being utterly defined by this incident?
BLICK: Certainly it could impose a different narrative on the campaign, and I think it would be fair to say that before this incident, the Leave campaign really had the momentum. Their tails were up. They looked like things were going well for them, the polls were moving in their direction. The Remain campaign had divisions, they weren't doing so well. Perhaps this could change the narrative slightly and some of the values that perhaps being derided up to this point which this MP represented may now take on a different sort of character in the public mind.
It could make a difference. But also it could fade away under the pressure of the campaign over the coming week as well. It remains to be seen.
FOSTER: Whatever we learned about this, it's so close to the vote, isn't it? It will -- she will be in voter's minds as they go to the polls. Could it affect a result?
BLICK: It's possible she will be in voter's minds, it's possible it will change the wider campaigning narrative, but it's also possible a lot of people have already made up their minds and this will not necessarily shift them. But certainly the -- the campaign on both sides will be wanting to be seen to be responding sensitively. The Remain campaign aren't going to want to be seen to exploit this terrible incident and equally the Leave campaign will want to perhaps back off from some more extreme views, potentially if this story plays out of the way we suspect it might at the moment.
FOSTER: One positive that might come out of it is I think -- we're getting politically involved when we say that this -- the whole debate was getting so aggressive, wasn't it? And there was so much briefing in the background, so much back stabbing, one politician described it to me. And that's -- you know, that was happening from both sides, wasn't it?
[01:10:01] If we can have a more measured debate for the rest of the campaign, that is going to be a positive legacy of Jo Cox.
BLICK: Well, I think certainly some quite extreme claims were being made on both sides, and there was a lot of political rancor developing within and between parties. Perhaps that will tone down a bit, but I wouldn't count on it.
FOSTER: And in terms of what we've learned about her, a lot of people didn't know much about her, they would recognize her and know her as part of this new intake. She does seem to epitomize the successful local MP.
BLICK: Certainly, and it's obviously symbolic that it was actually a surgery where this terrible incident happened. That embodies the kind of direct link that MPs in the UK cultivate with their constituents. And this is a very, very important part in their role. And perhaps it will help the public to recognize that MPs do perform a very valuable public service in interacting with the people who elected them in the first place.
FOSTER: Members of parliament are saying they are not carrying out their surgeries this week.
BLICK: Well, this would be a loss if this was to happen because it's a very important feature of our system in Britain, is the MPs are directly accountable to their voters. Each constituency has a single MP who answers to them. That's said to be one of the strengths of the British system. If this undermines it, that is a real problem.
FOSTER: They can't possibly afford security for every surgery every week, can they?
BLICK: I think that would be a very difficult thing to achieve, and particularly in times of austerity. There is going to be probably a reduction in the number of MPs. The next general election. We're only down to 600 so not enough to make a significant difference if we were trying to actually protect every single MP in this way.
FOSTER: Andrew Blick, thank you very much indeed for hammering down so many questions coming out of this horrible incident and we don't even know the details of it fully yet. We'll hope to hear more details today.
VAUSE: OK, Max, thank you for that.
We'll take a short break here on CNN. When we come back new details in Sunday's mass shooting in Orlando, Florida, including what the gunman's wife may have been doing during his deadly rampage.
WALKER: Also, we're going to hear from Prime Minister David Cameron on the death of British PM -- MP, rather, Jo Cox, as a nation continues to mourn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:16:17] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. The investigation into Sunday's terror attack in an Orlando nightclub now centers on the gunman's wife.
WALKER: That's right. A law enforcement official says Noor Salman exchanged texts with her husband during his rampage. Apparently he wanted to know if she has seen the news. Well, another law enforcement official says Salman texted back, "I love you."
VAUSE: That official also says Salman called her husband after realizing he may have killed those 49 people. A grand jury will determine if she'll be charged.
WALKER: In the meantime, U.S. President Barack Obama met with the families of the victims in Orlando on Thursday and laid flowers at a memorial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, today, once again as has been true too many times before, I held and hugged grieving family members and parents and they asked why does this keep happening? And they pleaded that we do more to stop the carnage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALKER: And joining us now is Brian Claypool, a civil rights litigator and a criminal defense attorney.
Good to have you. Let's talk about the wife. I mean, we're learning more details about her and how she was texting with her husband, she had cased out his locations with him, she had heard him talk about for months allegedly that he wanted to carry out some kind of jihadist attack. You put two and two together. Do you think that she was truly in the dark?
BRIAN CLAYPOOL, CIVIL RIGHTS LITIGATOR: Well, I don't think she was truly in the dark. But the big question is, can she be legally culpable?
WALKER: Right.
CLAYPOOL: For the crimes that he committed. She is not in the dark, but I don't think you have enough evidence right now to show that she had actual knowledge that there was an impending mass terror that was going to be carried out by her husband and that she concealed that from law enforcement.
VAUSE: So -- because you have this charge of misprision, which sounds kind of odd, but it basically is the deliberate concealment of knowledge of a crime. Is that a fairly high bar then to prove? Is that what you're saying?
CLAYPOOL: It's a very high bar to prove because first of all you have to prove that she had actual knowledge of the impending massacre at Pulse nightclub. The evidence shows that Mateen actually made a phone call during the massacre in which he was calling his wife saying hey, I'm the killer.
VAUSE: Right.
CLAYPOOL: Now if I'm defending her, I'm going to argue, wait a minute, that suggests that she didn't know at that moment that he was the killer.
WALKER: So suspicion is not the same as knowledge because again, I mean, she saw him purchase a lot of weapons and ammunition, and you know, again, you add all of this up, what he is doing, he's telling her he has these intentions. That's not strong enough, that's not a threshold?
CLAYPOOL: That is not enough. That's not enough. If she had driven him to Pulse nightclub --
VAUSE: On the night of the shooting, yes.
CLAYPOOL: On the night of the shooting.
WALKER: Right.
CLAYPOOL: Then she would be indicted.
WALKER: That's aiding and abetting. Right?
CLAYPOOL: That's aiding and abetting.
WALKER: Yes.
CLAYPOOL: Absolutely, then she could be indicted for that. But encouraging -- even encouraging, let's say she encouraged him to do something. Encouraging is not enough either. You have to have actual knowledge at the point in time in which this crime is going to be carried out and it's going to be carried out by him.
VAUSE: OK. So you took it from a defense attorney point of view. Could she argue that she was abused, she was controlled by her husband? He has a history of abusing his first wife apparently. Could she invoke spousal privilege?
CLAYPOOL: That's a great point because what if there is evidence -- and there actually is evidence.
VAUSE: Yes.
CLAYPOOL: That he has been a violent man in the past? So she can argue that she is -- the battered woman syndrome, that she's been abused by him or she's fearful of her life, such that she does not want to go to law enforcement and report the impending crime because he might kill her.
WALKER: So when we talk about how to prevent something this from ever happening again, you've been saying that there should be a law out there that would mandate family members or friends or neighbors to report suspicious behavior. But I guess, you know, at what point should someone report suspicious behavior if this were a law? I mean, there's that fine line.
[01:20:08] CLAYPOOL: Well, look, a good starting point is approaching and attacking terror from the inside because a lot of these mass murders in the United States, it has not been done by a lone person, other people have known about it. The Boston bomber, even the Sandy Hook shooting in Newtown.
VAUSE: Yes, his mom knew.
CLAYPOOL: The mom, exactly. And even Anna Rory (PH), had a psychologist who knew.
VAUSE: Yes.
CLAYPOOL: So if you can create a legal duty from the inside pushing upward, that if somebody has a reasonable suspicion, does not have to be an absolute knowledge that they know this is going to happen. But if they've got a reasonable suspicion and you create a legal duty to report it, if you don't then report it, you face criminal prosecution, and potentially imprisonment. Without that everybody is just going to turn a cheek and continue to not report it.
VAUSE: OK. Let's talk about the gun laws because there's now a move to essentially deny someone on the terror watch list the ability to purchase a gun. Gun rights advocates say this is completely and totally in just, a gun is a legal item, you can buy it, the right to it is under the Constitution. You put some on the terror watch list, you are denying their constitutional right, they are in a position where they're already declared guilty and you have to prove yourself innocent.
What's the counter argument?
CLAYPOOL: Well, I'm actually a civil rights litigator.
VAUSE: Right.
CLAYPOOL: And I'm actually on the side of that.
VAUSE: Right. CLAYPOOL: I think at some point there's got to be a balancing test,
John. You've got a way protecting the citizens of the United States versus civil rights. And constitutional rights. And I think the bill that Dianne Feinstein, senator from California, is proposing next week to be voted on is very fair. And what that says is that if you're on the terror watch list, the U.S. attorney can come in, and even if you're not on the list, the bill next week is going to say, if you've been investigated by the FBI, you could still be denied a gun.
But then you'd be given an opportunity to have what's called an administrative hearing or a court hearing to determine whether that has violated your due process. But I think, I think, public safety right now trumps constitutional rights.
WALKER: Well, the NRA has been very vocal on this. They're opposed to these kind of bills.
CLAYPOOL: Aren't they always.
WALKER: We know that -- we know who has the power, it's not really the electorate, it's the NRA who spends lots of money when it comes to lawmakers.
CLAYPOOL: Absolutely right.
WALKER: We appreciate you joining us.
VAUSE: Brian, thanks for coming in.
WALKER: Thank you.
CLAYPOOL: Thank you for having me.
VAUSE: Appreciate the insight.
WALKER: Well, a Jesuit priest has posted a video on Facebook lashing out against American Catholic bishops for their response to the Orlando gay nightclub shooting.
VAUSE: Father James Martin says they failed to express their condolences directly to the LGBT community and he's outraged by their lack of support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FR. JAMES MARTIN, JESUIT PRIEST: It shows how the LGBT community is invisible still to much of the church. Even in their deaths they are invisible. For too long, Catholics have treated the LGBT community as other. But for the Christian, there's no other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: And Father James Martin joins us now from New York.
Father, thank you for being with us. The video which you posted on Facebook, there's been such an incredible reaction to that, both within the church and around the world. Why do you think you struck such a nerve?
MARTIN: Well, I think people were ready to hear that. I think people were ready to hear that there's no us and them in the Catholic Church. There's simply an us. For too long the LGBT community has been seen as a them, and I think people were just happy to hear that message.
VAUSE: Why do you think there was such a reluctance at least initially by some within the church and it wasn't just the church, there were politicians in the U.S. as well, who refused or couldn't or wouldn't identify the victims as being gay?
MARTIN: Honestly, I'm not sure. I found it very depressing that people would ignore that. I suppose some people still have problems with the idea of their being an LGBT community, and a little bit of homophobia, a little bit of fear, perhaps. But I really think that, you know, in such a situation to be able to reach out and, you know, call people by name, you know, the name that they want to be known as I think is really important. It gives them dignity and it shows that they are visible and valuable.
VAUSE: Now the religious blog First Things responded to your video, arguing essentially that you were wrong. I want to read part of it to you. He's asking us and you, whether or not he realizes it, for the bishops to recognize and tacitly endorse the sexual identities promoted by the LGBT community, identities bound up fundamentally with the gender ideology promoted by the community.
Is the logic here by recognizing these victims as being gay in some way that would mean the church would approve of what they see as the sin of homosexuality? Could you explain that?
MARTIN: Yes. That's the logic and it's a false logic. I mean, to say to somebody, we are sympathetic to you and we reach out to you in your pain and we reach out to you as a community, you know, is basically just a Christian thing to do.
[01:25:06] It's basically saying that, you know, you can't reach out to someone if you think that they're sinful, but frankly everyone is sinful. You know, if you had a group of, you know, god forbid, Methodists that were killed, there would be some people in there who were sinners. You know, we are all sinners. That doesn't mean you don't reach out to them in sympathy. I mean, that's what a Christian does. So I found that article nonsensical.
VAUSE: Didn't the Holy Father himself say, who am I to judge?
MARTIN: He did say that. I mean, more importantly, Jesus tells us to go out to the margins, to the people who feel marginalized, the people who feel on the outs. Those are the people he goes to first, not last. And it's simply the Christian thing to do. I cannot believe, you know, that someone would not even be able to say the words LGBT or gay, particularly when they've been killed. So, to me, it's a kind of very low bar to be able to say, I'm sorry that you're community is suffering. I mean, that is a really low bar for a Christian.
VAUSE: In general, though, the issue of homosexuality seems to invoke a lot of strong feelings, a lot of anger not just within the Catholic Church, but other religions as well. And I've often wondered why?
MARTIN: Fear. You know, homophobia. And St. Paul has a great expression, perfect love drives out fear, and I would say that perfect fear drives out love. So these are people that are fearful. Certainly, you know, there are theological and religious, you know, reasons for, you know, having some sort of critique, but essentially, it's fear of LGBT people and we really need to get over that.
VAUSE: Yes, hate the sin, love the sinner. Father --
MARTIN: Well, unfortunately that --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: My pleasure.
VAUSE: Please continue. Continue, finish your thought.
MARTIN: Yes, I was going to say, unfortunately hate the sin, love the sinner is often said by people who don't particularly love the sinner. You know. It's usually hate the sin, hate the sinner.
VAUSE: We'll leave it at that. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.
MARTIN: My pleasure.
WALKER: We are getting new information now about the murder of a British MP. Just ahead, what police are saying about malicious communications with Jo Cox just three months ago.
VAUSE: Plus a look at how this attack could have happened given the UK's restrictive gun laws.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:30:48] VAUSE: Welcome back everyone. We have new details in the murder of British M.P. Jo Cox. Police now saying they investigated, quote, "malicious communications" which were made in March and arrested one person, but they say that was not the man they detained Thursday in connection with Cox's murder.
WALKER: That man is 52-year-old Tommy Mair. Police are searching his home in Birstall, the town where the attack took place.
The husband of slain Politician Jo Cox, Brendan Cox, has issued a statement, saying, quote, "Today is a beginning of a new chapter in our lives, more difficult, more painful, less joyful, less full of love. I and Jo's friends and families are going to work every moment of our lives to love and nurture our kids and to fight against the hate that killed Jo. Jo believed in a better world and fought for it every day of her life with an energy and a zest for life that would exhaust most people."
VAUSE: He goes on to say, "She would have wanted two things above all else that happened now. One, that our precious children are bathed in love and, two, that we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her. Hate doesn't have a creed, race or religion. It is poisonous. So we have no regrets about her life. She lived every day of it to the full."
WALKER: The M.P.'s killing comes as Britain furiously debates whether to stay or leave the European Union, and that vote is just one week away.
VAUSE: Both sides have suspended the campaigning.
Prime Minister David Cameron cancelled his rally in Gibraltar when he heard the news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: This is absolutely tragic and dreadful news. And my thoughts are with Jo's husband, Brendan, and the two children and their wider family. We have lost a great star. She was an M.P., great campaigning M.P., with huge compassion, with a big heart. And people will be very, very sad at what happened. Dreadful, dreadful news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Max Foster joins us once again live in London.
Max, what else do we know about what appears to be some kind of threat made towards Jo Cox back in March?
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, the media picked up on hate mail that she was receiving. M.P.s will say they get it routinely as part of their job. But she campaigned very strongly on the benefits of immigration, and that was something that was quite unpopular in parts of her local constituency. Certainly, we know that someone had been arrested in relation to threats made to her, completely unrelated to this latest incident, as far as we know. But officers received allegations of malicious communications to Joe Cox in March 2016, we're being told. An arrest of a man in connection to that investigation.
She was under a lot of pressure. She was a conviction politician. And it's interesting to see a lot of commentary in the British newspapers. For example, "The Telegraph" had been critical of British politics and politicians, and there's been some degradation of position of politicians in the U.K. because they've been so aggressive really in this campaign, around the referendum. But now, this is a point to mark the fact that they do great work and they do go out and meet constituents in unsecure environments. And she really typified that. I don't think this latest incident was linked to any sort of hate mail that she had in the past, maybe it was. We will find out about that. But politicians general are given a lot of grief about the work that they do, particularly around this very divisive Brexit issue.
VAUSE: Well, as you say, politicians do get hate mail but rarely does that end up having somebody arrested. This obviously seems to be a next level beyond that. Given that, are other members of parliament concerned about their own security given what happened to Jo Cox?
FOSTER: They are, and certainly, at least two M.P.s have cancelled their meetings today with constituents around that. And in parliament, a recent committee discussed this issue. Lots of M.P.s complaining that they have stalkers when they go to these constituency meetings. And it's an emerging on social media as well, where they get a lot of bullying and attacks on social media. That is very difficult for politicians, because when they are concerned about going out on meetings face to face and they try to address people's issues across social media, so they cannot avoid or block those sorts of attacks that they get on social media. And it's increasingly an issue.
So the debate today is about physical protection. Should they be getting that when they go out and meet members of their constituency when they are in particularly divisive debates? And also how do you deal with this social media bullying and how do you prevent that? How do the social media companies get involved in that? I was in a meeting recently with metropolitan police in London, and they feel that the big social media companies are not doing enough to coordinator with the security services, not just on this sort of cyber bullying, but also around terror as well. They want greater access to people's accounts and the social media companies are batting that off, saying, in terms of privacy, we cannot accept that is going to happen. But this is another incident that will play into the debate, how much should the social media and digital companies be coordinating with security services.
[01:36:06] WALKER: Max, standby, because I want to get more context about why this killing is all the more shocking. You have to consider that England is known for tight gun laws, has very low rates of gun violence. In fact, England and Wales are something of a gun free zone, with just 6.2 guns per 100 people. That's according to the Small Arms Survey. Now, England's low rates of gun ownership are due to the strict gun laws that empower local enforcement to deny gun licenses to citizens at their discretion. And because of the tight laws, the United Kingdom has a low gun homicide rate. So again, this helps us understand why so many people are in disbelief over the attack, Max. Tell us more about the reaction and about gun laws in the U.K?
FOSTER: Well, one of the feelings here among the security services is that there has not been a big attack in London, a terror attack, partly because there's not a gun culture here, as there perhaps is in other countries, as they are describing it. That is one of the reasons that there's a resistance to arm police more generally. They have increased the number of armed officers. But that's for use in response to a terror attack, as it were, or an incident like this, perhaps. But certainly, there's no motivation to really arm police more generally. And the idea being that we are on an island, and guns can't be imported in the same way as they can in mainland Europe, for example. But I don't think there's going to be any big debate around whether or not our police should be armed as a result of this. We have had instances in the past and it hasn't really emerged out it. Very strong feeling that police shouldn't be armed. And there is a gun culture, if you can call it that, in this country, in terms of sporting guns. But certainly when it comes to violence in the inner cities, it's knife crime that is the big concern as opposed to gun crime. And we understand she was stabbed as well as shot in the incident. And I think, if the debate comes around this, it will be around knife crime as opposed to gun crime. It's an unusual sort of context that we have in this country.
VAUSE: OK. Max, thank you. Max Foster, live in London, bringing us up to date with the new details that we have that Jo Cox received threatening communications back in March.
One interesting thing, too, it's described as a homemade gun or a relic from World War II, to show you how tight the gun laws are in the U.K.
WALKER: Exactly. Witnesses say it looked really, really old, like from the World War II era.
All right, we are going to take a short break from here. When we return, days after the Orlando nightclub massacre, President Obama is renewing his call for gun control once again. What he has to say is straight ahead.
VAUSE: And leading Republican Senator John McCain blames the Orlando massacre on President Barack Obama and then tried to walk that back that accusation but only a little. That is next.
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[01:42:25] WALKER: Welcome back, everyone. U.S. President Barack Obama traveled on Thursday to Orlando to the scene of the largest terror attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.
VAUSE: He used that visit to renew his call for action against gun violence and he vowed the U.S. will do whatever it takes to destroy terror groups like ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will continue to be relentless against terrorist groups like ISIL and al Qaeda. We are going destroy them. We are going to disrupt their networks and their financing and the flow of fighters in and out of war theaters. We are going to disrupt their propaganda that poisons so many minds around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Joining us now, a Democratic strategist, Dave Jacobson; and Republican consultant, John Thomas.
Good to have you back.
(CROSSTALK)
VAUSE: The president in Orlando today criticized Republicans for blocking gun reform again, clearly linking this shooting at the Pulse nightclub with other domestic shootings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Those who were injured and killed here were gunned down by a single killer with a powerful assault weapon. The motives of this killer may have been different than the mass shooters in Aurora or Newtown but the instruments of death were so similar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: John, first to you.
What is wrong with the president's argument? Isn't gun control in this country a legitimate way of dealing with homegrown terrorists?
JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: I don't think so. First of all, criminals don't abide by the laws. That's why there's criminals. Gun laws will just keep good citizens, law-abiding citizens from getting access to guns to protect themselves. If gun laws become so strict, there will be a black market for guns. But if a criminal is really hell-bent on getting a gun, they will get a gun. If they can't get guns, they will use fertilizer as bombs. They'll use cars as weapons like they do in other countries. A lot of the electorate feels that it's putting a Band-Aid on the problem. We have to fix the problem, not just add more gun laws.
WALKER: Dave, do you think there's no hope of meaningful change when it comes to gun laws in the United States, especially since the U.S. has become so accustomed to massacre after massacre after massacre. Even after Sandy Hook, we have little children being killed, nothing changes when it comes to gun laws. Is there any hope?
DAVE JACOBSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think there is. We've seen some glimmers of hope with new public opinions polls being released post-Orlando. We just saw an NBC News' Survey Monkey released a poll that said 60 percent of Americans favor stricter gun laws and 61 support a ban on assault weapons, which is one of the guns that was used in Orlando, which was an AR-15, the same that was used in Sandy Hook.
[01:45:21] VAUSE: 89 percent of people want tougher background checks.
WALKER: Exactly.
VAUSE: And nothing got done after Sandy Hook.
JACOBSON: Right. Now we have a different situation. We have somebody that was on the terror watch list.
VAUSE: Right.
JACOBSON: Had their been some sort of more national rigorous, thorough background check that could have screened him, not just at the state level, at a national level, they could have had a red-flag opportunity to somehow prevent him from purchasing the guns he used to slaughter those 50 individuals.
VAUSE: John McCain had tough words for Barack Obama, holding him directly responsible for the shooting in Orlando.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R), ARIZONA: Barack Obama is directly responsible for it, because when he pulled everyone out of Iraq, al Qaeda went to Syria and became ISIS. And ISIS is what it is today, thanks to Barack Obama's failures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: He later walked it back on Twitter, saying this, "To clarify, I was referring to President Obama's national security decisions to have led to the rise of ISIL, not to the president himself."
John, it is interesting that a member of Congress who has received more money from the NRA than any other member during his career, $7 million, is the one that makes this about foreign policy rather than guns.
THOMAS: Look, I think John McCain did have a point, although he may have phrased it incorrectly. The point he was trying to make is we have not done enough to fight terrorism on their land, and Barack Obama has failed in that regard. But to directly say that the president is solely to blame for the attack in Orlando is a misstatement. I think the Senator realizes that.
WALKER: Isn't the larger problem though, that, you know, if you have like John was mentioning more than 80 percent of the American public supporting expanded background checks, yet Congress is not doing anything to reflect that public opinion. Yet, you have a powerful group like the NRA who gets what they want passed in Congress. There's a fundamental problem here, isn't there when it comes to the American political system?
I will let you take it first, John.
THOMAS: Sure. We see it across the country in races we run where -- yes, the NRA has influence. I will not deny it. But it's bigger than the NRA. It's that while Americans, on one hand, in public opinion polls, may say they support expanded background checks, when you ask them, if they want to keep their guns and we are going to do something to your guns, they say they don't want anything done. And so it's a potent political issue. It's beyond just influence --
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: Dave, I want you to chime in there really quick.
JACOBSON: Sure. This is what Bernie Sanders tapped into when he was campaigning. He was saying, look, the system is rigged, that's why we have the grid lock. We need a revolution. We need a sort of grassroots ground swell of people to come up and throw the bums out of office. And the NRA is just one of many groups that have too much power over elected officials in office.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: That's the same Bernie Sanders who was attacked relentlessly for his war on guns.
(CROSSTALK)
VAUSE: You mentioned Bernie Sanders. He had a concession-style speech tonight without the concession.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The major political task that, together, we face in the next five months is to make certain that Donald Trump is defeated and defeated badly. And I personally intend to begin my role in that process in a very short period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Those 15 seconds and 23 minutes. Let me surmise. There is nothing conciliatory there about Hillary Clinton. He did not concede. It was a present tense, about their differences. And he said that he would work with her, but it seems that he was saying on her terms only. How does it play out, Dave?
JACOBSON: I think he is trying to maximize his leverage and try to get something meaningful attached to the platform committee. We have seen some progress in terms of the Sanders demands. The DNC has now installed a new chief of staff to sort of oversee day-to-day operations.
THOMAS: It's a Clinton person.
JACOBSON: Yeah. But there is someone different that's not a Debbie Wasserman Schultz person. And I think also with the platform writing committee there's five Bernie Sanders supporters that will have influence when they are crafting the policy for the platform. I think he is trying to make as many gains as possible. He supports the $15 an hour minimum wage and a nationwide ban on fracking, Wall Street reforms. Those are some of the issues he is trying to attach to the platform.
THOMAS: I think he is trying to make something good to the loss. He thinks he started a movement, and he did. He has a huge grassroots donor base that keeps giving to him. So he's going let's continue beyond this election. But I do think it's bizarre. It's time to throw in the towel.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: You are not going to win.
WALKER: Yeah. VAUSE: A minute left. A lot of criticism of Donald Trump and his response to the Orlando shooting, much of it coming from senior Republicans, so Donald Trump basically told them to butt out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: You know, the Republicans -- honestly, folks, our leaders have to get tougher. This is too tough to do it alone. But you know what, I think I'm going to be forced to. I think I'm going to be forced to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:50:10] VAUSE: OK, that was Wednesday. Today came the reaction from House Speaker Paul Ryan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What is your reaction to that, and is this -- how do you have any confidence that this is a guy that will respect the separation of powers?
REP. PAUL RYAN, (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: You know, it's -- you can't make it up sometimes. I'll just say we represent a separate but equal branch of government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Very quickly, Dave -- John, your reaction first.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: Dave, your reaction.
JACOBSON: I think Paul Ryan is knocking himself, saying, man, I should have waited two more weeks before I pulled the trigger and made that endorsement.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: Donald Trump has to tighten up his rhetoric. Coming on out strong is fine, but he keeps tripping on himself when these could be moments where he gathers the nation to fight terrorism, but instead he makes gaffes, and it's not good.
VAUSE: Supported Trump too soon.
OK, Dave and John, good to see you.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: Thank you.
All right, we will take a short break. When we come back, in a few hours, we will find out if the Russian track and field team will be allowed to compete in the Rio Olympics after new revelations in a doping scandal. Some say it does not look good.
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[01:55:05] VAUSE: Welcome back everyone. Russia's track and field athletes are hoping to still have a chance to compete at the Rio Olympics. The team is banned from international competition after allegations that Russia sponsored widespread doping.
VAUSE: And the world athletes governing body will decide whether to lift the suspension, but a new report from the World Anti-Doping Agency claims Russia has continued to obstruct the drug testing of its athletes. Russia denies the allegation.
WALKER: And our Fareed Zakaria is interviewing Russian Vladimir Putin. See the entire interview on Sunday, 9:00 a.m. in Hong Kong or at noon in London.
VAUSE: The Cleveland Cavaliers have tied up the NBA finals, winning game six, 115-101, in Cleveland.
WALKER: A nail-biter. The series stands at three games a piece between Cleveland and the Golden State Warriors. Lebron James and the Cavs once trailed the Warriors 3-1 in the series. Boy, have things changed. The deciding game seven is set for Oakland on Sunday.
And you are watching CNN NEWSROOM, live from Los Angeles. I'm Amara Walker.
VAUSE: And I'm John Vause.
We will be back with another hour of news after a short break. Stay with us.
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