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Interview With Arizona Senatorial Candidate Kelli Ward; Aftershocks Rattle Italy; Interview With New York Congressman Gregory Meeks; Trump Creates Confusion Over Immigration Policy. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 26, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:10]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we roll along on this Friday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you for being with me.

To this race for the White House. And as if his trailing poll numbers were not enough, Donald Trump just piled on a bit more pressure really on himself ahead of this huge immigration speech next week that he's expected to deliver next Wednesday in Phoenix.

And voters are also now seeking clarity really now more than ever after another day of some perceived confusion over what exactly Mr. Trump intends to do out people living undocumented, about 11 million of them, in this country.

First of all, let me play you some sound. In an interview with Anderson Cooper just after that speech in Manchester this time yesterday, Trump seemed to backtrack on his flip-flop. Backtrack on his flip-flop. Let me explain. Initially, he promised deportation forces would send these undocumented immigrants out of the country.

But earlier this week, then he told a town hall he would -- quote -- "work with those here illegally, allowing them to pay back taxes."

And now Trump just stressed to Anderson in that interview that people in the U.S., undocumented immigrants, would have no legal status. As for the deportation force he's talked about for months and months, well, Trump hasn't quite ruled that out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: But 11 million who have not committed a crime.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No. We're then going...

COOPER: There's going to be a path to legalization, is that right?

TRUMP: You know it's a process. You can't take 11 at one time and just say, boom, you're gone. We have to find where these people are. Most people don't even -- nobody even knows if it's 11. It could be 30 or and it could be five. Nobody knows what the number is. I will tell you what we know, let me explain...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: But if somebody hasn't committed a crime, will they be deported?

TRUMP: Let me tell you what, we know the bad ones. We know where they are, who they are. We know the drug cartel people. We know the gangs and the heads of the gangs and the gang members. Those people are gone.

COOPER: But that's a huge number.

COOPER: If they haven't committed a crime, is there going to be a path to legalization? I'm talking about citizenship.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: No, there's not a pass. There's no path to legalization, unless people leave the country. Well, when they come back in, if they come back in, then they can start paying taxes.

COOPER: If you haven't committed a crime and you've been here for 15 years and you have a family here and you have a job here, will you be deported?

TRUMP: We're going to see what happens once we up strengthen our border.

But there is a very good chance the answer could be yes. We're going to see what happens. Before I do anything, I want to get rid of the bad ones. There are a lot of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's begin this hour with my colleague Maeve Reston, CNN national political reporter.

And again, just to repeat, Anderson said it, we said it a bunch, approximately 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country and the major of them haven't committed crimes. Many of them have been here for years and years. The question to me seems what will Mr. Trump do with them if he's elected president, yes?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke. I feel like we need a flow chart here of some kind to figure out which direction Donald Trump is going on this.

But remember that when he outlined his immigration policy early on in the primaries, he was very specific about a deportation force, saying that you could do something like what Eisenhower did in 1954 where you rounded up people and put them on buses and sent them by boat back to Mexico.

Clearly, he is backing off that idea. And part of the problem with his idea about a deportation force is that he's never addressed what the costs of this would be. I mean, it is extraordinarily expensive, according to any experts that you talk to. Or what would happen to essentially about five million immigrants' children who are legally here in the U.S. who have at least one parent if they were deported.

[15:05:00]

So there is all kinds of questions that he hasn't addressed and didn't address during the primary. And I think he is getting a lot more scrutiny now obviously because it is a one-on-one race between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, and he can't wiggle out of these questions without explaining how much this is going to cost, what he is going to do.

And so we will see what he says in this immigration speech on Wednesday, which some aides also said might not be a new policy speech. So there is a just a lot -- a huge lack of clarity here, and it may be in his interest to keep his ideas on this pretty muddy.

BALDWIN: Maeve, stay with me. Let me keep your voice and bring in a few others.

With me now, Donald Trump supporter Kris Kobach, who is also secretary of state for the state of Kansas, Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks, who chairs the Congressional Black Caucus PAC, and CNN political commentator S.E. Cupp, a Republican who very vociferously through this campaign does not support -- you like that?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I do.

BALDWIN: Does not support Mr. Trump. And also Maeve is with us.

So, Kris Kobach, let me just begin with you. And so you are so sort of germane to this whole thing because you helped devise and draft Trump's immigration plan, including his border wall. Maeve Reston says we need a flow chart. I'm going to guess that you're going to disagree with that.

But can you explain to me and the rest of us what Trump believes, what Trump's plan is with the 11 million?

KRIS KOBACH, KANSAS SECRETARY OF STATE: Sure.

And I would say, just as a point of clarification, this week when he had that interview on another network a couple days ago, which people, some people took as a softening of position, he used some ambiguous words.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He said softening.

KOBACH: And people jumped -- right, exactly. And softening is an ambiguous word. What does that mean?

And so people jumped at his and drew different conclusions. But then the very next day, at a speech in Jackson, Mississippi, and then on that interview with Anderson Cooper, he clarified he's at the same position he's been all the way along, and that is that we don't have -- we're not going to have a path to legalization, no amnesty for the 11 million.

But to your question, his plan is that we need to cause the 11 million or whatever the number is to leave the United States. And I think there is a false dichotomy that some people use when they look at it. They say, well, you either have to deport them all or you have to let them all stay.

But the answer is you deport a large percentage of them and many people will go home on their own. That's what happened when Eisenhower did so back in 1954. That's what happened when the federal government after 9/11 had a more limited focus of people coming from countries with al Qaeda presence. Many people left on their own.

I think what Trump is saying is, yes, we will pick a number, it will be some percentage, but it may not be 100 percent.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Kris, let me just stay with you and interrupt, because when we're talking about going back, we were discussing last hour George Bush and the touchbacks. I feel like we have heard some iteration of that coming out of -- that Mr. Trump has mentioned. Is that potentially part of a plan?

KOBACH: Yes, I think so.

The reason it has to be or at least has to be in some way part of the plan, now, when I say touchback, I'm not talking about you literally touch the home country and then you come right back. I'm talking about going to the home country and being eligible to get in line behind everybody else and come back after a few years, however long that line may be.

The reason that kind of has to be part of it is, you have to give an incentive for illegal aliens in the United States to make the calculation themselves, well, maybe I better go home, I will get in line, I will try to come back in a few years.

If you don't allow them ever to come back, then many will try to stay in the United States and keep on evading law enforcement. You have to at least offer a possibility of coming back.

BALDWIN: OK, Kris, I'm going to come back to you.

S.E., you talk to a lot of Republicans. You are a Republican. You are wondering where perhaps Mr. Trump stands on all of this. You just heard Kris try to lay it out. Do you feel enlightened?

CUPP: Well, first, let me just say only Trump and his supporters look back on Operation Wetback with nostalgia. Most people generally agree that that was an incredibly inhumane moment in our history. And that was the indeed darkest of our times, not the brightest. But there is no spinning Trump's way out of this. The centerpiece of

his campaign from the second he descended that escalator in Trump Tower was, they're all going home. He said it over and over again. He said it for months. And it's why some Trump supporters like Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin are very nervous and disappointed in Trump's new words, which are indeed different, to say that some will stay.

For some Republicans, that's the definition of amnesty. And whatever side of the immigration debate you fall on, it is really difficult to explain that allowing some undocumented immigrants to stay is not a total reversal of position and is not amnesty.

BALDWIN: Let me -- you mentioned Sarah Palin. She talked to "The Wall Street Journal." This is what Sarah Palin said. "If Mr. Trump were to go down a path of wishy-washy positions taken on things that the core foundation of his support has so appreciated, and that is respecting our Constitution and respecting law and order in America, then, yes, there would be massive disappointment."

[15:10:07]

So, you have the potential for all those Trump supporters who really piled up behind him during the primary process, because this was his sort of cornerstone piece, they may fall aside.

But, Congressman Meeks, let me just turn to you, as the Democrat, as the Hillary Clinton supporter. I know even as recent as yesterday Hillary Clinton was saying take Mr. Trump at his word, when he initially, to S.E.'s point, descended the escalator and made the speech and referred to some Mexicans as drug dealers and criminals. But on the flip side, if he does soften, that could be troublesome for you all.

REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: Not troublesome for me.

BALDWIN: No?

MEEKS: Because, clearly, what Donald Trump is, is a con man.

BALDWIN: A con man.

MEEKS: And what a con man does, he will say anything to try to get -- it's generally for your money, in this case, for your vote.

He conned his way into getting the Republican nomination. And now he is trying to flip around, and sometimes he changes his mind, not in a matter of months, but a matter of days and sometimes a matter of minutes. And so what he's doing is...

BALDWIN: What if he's evolving? What if he has a new campaign manager and new chief of his campaign and perhaps it is a different strategy for him?

MEEKS: He's evolved before. He's changed campaign managers, he's changed personnel. It is the same Donald Trump. And it is the same thing. So he's showing you who he is. And what happens with a con man,

either you get away with the con or you get caught. And I think what is starting to happen, he's starting to get caught. You can't keep doing it. You can't keep conning yourself all the way through. And that's what he's done thus far.

BALDWIN: Kris, let me just be fair to you and have you to respond to that, calling your guy a con man.

KOBACH: Well, look, I'm as conservative and law enforcement-oriented as they come when it comes to the illegal immigration issue. If I thought Donald Trump were changing his position, I would be very upset and I wouldn't be here defending his position.

I think what you have is a person who is running for his first political office in his life. And one of the things that many people like about Trump is that he doesn't speak in well-rehearsed phrases where he always goes back to the talking points he's been given. He just speaks from the gut and he just -- he will speak off the cuff and he will use phrases that are ambiguous.

But right after that interview, he came back and said, no, no, this is what I mean, we're still on the same position he's been talking about all along, which is, yes, we are going to make sure that the 11 million eventually go home. And whether that means you deport them or give them incentives to go home, the bottom line is they are going home.

And in conclusion, I would say, look, voters are going to have a real choice here. You have got Hillary Clinton who is saying very clearly she wants an amnesty. Trump says no. You have got Hillary Clinton saying no wall. Trump says he wants a wall. Hillary Clinton says she wants the continued low-level enforcement. Trump wants to ramp it up.

So, hey, voters have a clear voice and that's a good thing for the American political community. They can see where the two stand. We can try to parse words on the side here, but there is no question Trump is taking a much stronger law enforcement position than Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: Well, someone he really clashed with, especially when you watch the two of them on those debate stages, was Jeb Bush. And now you have other Republicans comparing what Mr. Trump has been saying to a Jeb Bush-esque sort of immigration plan.

Jeb Bush was on the radio yesterday. I just want to play a snippet of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: The simple process is a path to legal status, not a path to citizenship, where you pay a fine, where you work, where you don't receive government assistance, where you learn English, and you pay your taxes and over an extended period of time you earn legal status.

QUESTION: That seems to be what he is advocating in many ways or what he's suggesting.

BUSH: Well, I'm sure I influenced his position.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: That's Jeb Bush's policy, essentially.

TRUMP: I don't know anything about Jeb Bush. He wasn't building a wall. Jeb Bush wasn't building a wall. Jeb Bush wasn't making strong borders. And I'm not knocking Jeb Bush, but I was with him for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Maeve, you started this. I'm going to end with you here. You heard the response there with Mr. Trump with Anderson, but a primary is one thing. A general election, you have a much broader, much wider audience.

And isn't there sort of this sense of a gravitational pull? I'm listening to Kris really closely on what he's saying Trump believes. But what do you make of a potential moving?

RESTON: I just think that we're back to the same place that we were with Romney when he tried to explain self-deportation. So far, what Trump has articulated doesn't have any steps laid out about how this would actually all work.

And it is going to be incumbent on him on Wednesday to explain what this policy is.

BALDWIN: OK.

Sorry. Somebody just got in my ear. We will end it there, but we have some sound.

Let's end it on soothing light because it is a Friday. I have five words for you, Stephen Colbert, Tim Kaine, harmonica. Go.

[15:15:08]

Jon Batiste, how about that? Who knew?

With that, I want to thank everyone, Kris Kobach, Congressman Meeks, S.E. Cupp and Maeve Reston, thank you all so much.

And, again, we will be listening very to Mr. Trump next Wednesday in Phoenix.

Coming up here, Senator John McCain's primary opponent, Kelli Ward, a physician, have you heard what she said? She is suggesting that Senator John McCain may be too old for the job and could perhaps not quite make it through his entire next term if reelected. You with me? Did she go too far? We're going to talk about that and the McCain camp reaction coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

In the fight against ISIS, Kurdish fighters are gaining ground in Mosul and Iraq, which is -- the Iraqi army has vowed to liberate by the end of the year.

[15:20:05]

But this has never been Iraq's fight alone.

CNN senior international correspondent Arwa Damon met not just one, but two Americans who are using their medical training to save lives on the front line. Their challenges are enormous, their sacrifices even greater.

She filed this powerful report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's early morning and the Kurdish Peshmerga are launching a major push into ISIS-controlled villages.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're looking for a place to set up our medical triage area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've had five dead, 10 wounded.

DAMON: Jon Rieth and Pete Reed are two Americans on the medical front line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have two casualties! Let's treat them appropriately. Stop laying with leverage. Get him on.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black box! Black box!

DAMON: It's a chaotic, frantic effort on this day, compound by a language barrier, different culture, and significant lack of resources.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need more plastic. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) plastic.

DAMON: Jon is a trained emergency medical technician from Syracuse, New York, and is volunteering. Pete of Bordentown, New Jersey, is a former marine turned medic who works with a nonprofit providing medical training and assistance.

There is no advanced warning when a casualty is coming in, no time to prep before the next one arrives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The toughest thing about being out here as a combat medic is when your patients don't live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, man. Stay with us. Come back to us, man. Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes, you know, we can't fix everything. So I think that's the hardest part for me personally. You want to save everybody, but you can't.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a break down in coalition forces, Peshmerga. It's difficult when you're trying your best to work on someone, but the rest of the system isn't there. Or it's not working properly.

DAMON: They both say they had comfortable, happy lives at home.

(on camera): Was it guilt?

PETER REED, U.S. VOLUNTEER MEDIC: Guilt or sense of purpose. Sometimes those overlap. Somewhere in the middle.

JON RIETH, VOLUNTEER MEDIC: U.S. I can help people at home for sure, and I do. I feel good for what I do there, but here that feeling is much greater.

The Peshmerga need significant help. They need training. They need an actual combat medical unit. People are throwing ammunition and guns at this place all day long. That's not saving lives.

REED: When I think of ISIS, I think of Khmer Rouge, and Nazis. I mean, there are very few times in history there's such a black and white, good versus evil situation. They've been carrying this war and this region on their backs with not nearly enough support.

People back home are upset about shootings and things like that. ISIS is involved there. They don't have a clue what it's like a day here or a day in Baghdad or Syria. It's pretty horrible.

ARWA (voice-over): Arwa Damon, CNN, (INAUDIBLE) Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Arwa Damon, thank you so much for that and your pieces all week long here.

Coming up next: It is a race against time in the hunt to find people who are still potentially trapped in all that rubble, as hundreds of aftershocks now continue to rattle Central Italy. We will take you there in the thick of it live.

Also ahead, Senator John McCain's primary opponent, Kelli Ward, she is an M.D., and she is also suggesting that her rival, John McCain, could be too old for the job. Did she go too far? Let's ask her live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:33]

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. Senator John McCain's Republican challenger says McCain is too old for

the job. Senator McCain will celebrate his 80th birthday on Monday, and his primary opponent, Kelli Ward, a doctor, has been suggesting the Arizona senator is past his prime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLI WARD (R), ARIZONA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: John McCain is falling down on the job. He's gotten weak. He's gotten old. I do want to wish him a happy birthday. He's going to be 80 on Monday, and I want to give him the best birthday present ever, the gift of retirement.

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": That's a -- so you think he is too old to serve in the Senate?

WARD: You know, I think anybody who's been in Washington for almost 40 years has been there too long.

TODD: But you brought up his age. That's a tough attack.

WARD: Well, I mean, I'm a physician. I see the physiological changes that happen in normal aging in patients again and again and again over the last 20, 25 years. So I do know what happens to the body and the mind.

(CROSSTALK)

TODD: So, you're diagnosing? You feel comfortable diagnosing him on air like this?

WARD: Diagnosing him as an 80 year-old man? Yes, I do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: McCain's spokeswoman has fired back with this.

Let me quote her: "At the end of campaigns, desperate candidates too often end up embarrassing themselves by launching dishonorable personal attacks. It is unfortunate that Kelli Ward has chosen to end her campaign with desperate fictions. The people of Arizona deserve better."

I should also point out the latest CNN/ORC poll shows 55 percent of likely Republican voters support McCain, 29 percent support Kelli Ward.

Joining me now on the phone, Kelli Ward, Arizona candidate for senator.

Kelli, welcome.

WARD: Hey, Brooke, it is great to be with you.