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Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump Set to Debate. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 26, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: As many as 100 million people may watch tonight Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump together, just as poll after poll is now showing them in a dead heat.

We now have Clinton on top in some, Trump on top in the other, pretty much all within the margin of error. So, how exactly does this debate work?

A lot is going to come down here in terms -- to the rules.

I want to go now to our Washington correspondent, senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

And we are going to get to the format in just a moment, Jeff, but first in these final hours, we hear about how different -- differently they have been preparing. She's in a hotel nearby here still practicing. What is she doing? What is he doing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right.

She really likes those walk-through sessions, these practice debate sessions. And she's made no apology for this at all. She's really shown that she's practicing for this, including, I find this so interesting, the exact hour of the debate. She's been practicing for the last three nights from 9:00 p.m. to 10:30 p.m., just so her body clock is sort of up for that prime-time debate.

Now, of course, Donald Trump is used to giving long speeches at rallies and other things, so he's used to be on his feet for a long time, but that's something that is actually important to remember for these candidates, standing up there for 90 minutes, no commercials. They can't walk out.

Donald Trump is doing more practicing than he's letting on. You talk to some Republicans in his inner circle, they say he really has been taking this incredibly seriously, not doing them as formally as she has, these mock debates, but practicing a lot, nonetheless.

BURNETT: All right, so what about in terms of the format? We know she goes first.

ZELENY: Right.

BURNETT: But then what in terms of, you know -- during the debates, the earlier debates, right, there would be a little alarm bell that would go off for time, as an example. This is different.

ZELENY: No buzzers. There won't be any sounds like that.

The moderator keeps time. The audience will be different. The audience is supposed to be quiet during general election debates, totally different than during primary debates. And that could be significant.

But let's look at this graphic of the rules here. There are six segments. They are 15 minutes each here. And Hillary Clinton does go first. She won a coin toss. She will have two minutes to respond to the first question. Donald Trump has two minutes to respond to the same question as well.

And there are three different topic areas, one, America's direction, one, achieving prosperity, and, one, securing America. So, those are the overall sort of themes there.

Secretary Clinton, stage left, standing on stage left, Donald Trump standing on stage right. It meets their politics, but they also flipped for that, I'm told. So, we will see them stand for 90 minutes, and, again, no breaks at all.

BURNETT: All right, so I want to get to our panel here, but, first, one other thing that I have been a bit confused about. And this is the issue of the podiums.

ZELENY: Right.

BURNETT: So, obviously, he's very tall and she's not as tall. So, she has a shorter podium, which might be physically more comfortable for her. This has happened in the past but they have done it on a slope, so that the audience, it wouldn't look different heights to the audience. But they didn't do a slope this time. So is it really true that she's just going to look lower?

ZELENY: She will look shorter than him, but, in fact, she is shorter than Donald Trump. So, it would be odd to have them at the same height.

But the podium height is different, because, of course, have you to rest your hands on the podium.

BURNETT: Right.

ZELENY: The podium is designed for their body height, but she is going to look different than him. She's about 5'6'', 5'7''. He's about 6'4, so it is going to be different. But that is how both sides sort of...

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: It's like they're going to be in one of those things at a theme park where you have like the little side of the room and the big side of the room with the different size podiums.

ZELENY: It could be. We will see.

But this was all sort of scripted out by -- both sides agreed to this, so I think it will probably look OK.

BURNETT: All right.

Let me bring in our panel in here, Dana Bash, of course, with us, chief political correspondent, senior CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein, who is also senior editor at "The Atlantic," political commentator Van Jones, who supports Hillary Clinton, and political commentator Kayleigh McEnany, who supports Donald Trump.

So, Dana, first of all, you're reporting on the Trump camp -- I mean, which Trump the Hillary campaign is preparing for. Rather, they may have oversimplified it and they're saying there's basically a nice Trump and a mean Trump.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Definitely.

And I don't necessarily think that they're sure if there are only two. But what they're preparing for, at least starting a few days ago, is a polite Donald Trump, and, to be more specific, Philippe Reines, who was a longtime aide to Hillary Clinton, who is playing the role of Donald Trump in the debate prep, a few days ago surprised Hillary Clinton, I'm told, in his opening statement playing Donald Trump, and was polite, and not just that, began to praise her for all of the good things she's done, particularly for women, breaking glass ceiling after glass ceiling.

And I'm told by the source that the reason that they did this is because they firmly believe that that Donald Trump will likely show up.

Now, as I'm saying this, you know, my first question as a reporter, probably all of you, are saying, you know, come on, are you trying to psych him out, make him think, ooh, now I have to be polite, because if I come across as not polite...

BURNETT: Or they think then that she's prepared for that.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Exactly.

[15:05:00]

The answer was, they really do think he is polite. But the reason I brought that up, and just kind of questioning why we got that information, is because we're in that kind of psyops part of the debate, the pre-debate prep, where everyone is trying to -- it's a polite version of trash talk in a sports game.

BURNETT: Yes.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

But, look, I think if you're looking at their challenges in this debate, they're very clear, I think. Donald Trump's biggest challenge is that, consistently in polling, roughly 60 percent of Americans say they don't he's qualified and roughly 60 percent say he's biased against women and minorities.

He has got to change that. Regardless -- Hillary Clinton has lots of dents in the fender. Adding some more dents in the fender is not going to, I think, avail him that much unless he can change the perceptions of that himself.

And, then, conversely, if you're looking at her, Donald Trump, again, both of them are laboring under very high unfavorables. She could put more dents in him, but if she does not convince more voters in this extraordinary forum, 90 minutes, maybe 100 million people, that she's in this to make a difference in their own lives, rather than because she's a power-hungry person who will do whatever it takes to get more power, I think the evening will be a failure.

So, yes, their inclination is going to be to engage each other, maybe to maul each other, but their problems are somewhat and parallel and not necessarily defined at the moments where they intersect.

BURNETT: Let's bring each of you in here, because, Kayleigh, first of all, this issue with Trump. People don't think he has the temperament to be president. And women don't like him.

He has to turn those things around if he's going to win. Ron is right. Those two numbers have got to change. What does he do tonight to change those two things?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You're right. They do have to change. It's clear the momentum is going in his direction.

CNN's polling in Pennsylvania shows that today, likewise in Colorado. But you're correct that those are the areas he needs to show voters he is likable, he is palatable to women. And he does what Ronald Reagan does in 1980. There was a similar caricature of Ronald Reagan, that he was all of these things, engaging in stirrings of hate is what President Carter said.

And he came on the debate stage, and he was very cheery, and when Carter attacked him, he kind of airily dismissed his comments, saying, there you go again, and he moved forward and he showed voters that he was a palatable choice for president and went on to win the election.

So, Donald Trump, I hope he has studied that debate in 1980.

BURNETT: So, Van, what about Hillary Clinton? How does she -- and let's just take the microcosm here. She's going to be asked about the e-mails.

She doesn't like to be asked about the e-mails. That's when she can get tight-lipped and defensive and angry-looking. And how does she turn that around this time, handle it differently and somehow get more people to believe, you know what, she was forthright, honest, I like her more?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I think, on that one, she should just be a lot more contrite.

Listen, she's apologized, but the way that she apologizes sometimes doesn't land like an apology. It's sometimes like...

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Like you're annoying me.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: I'm sorry, but I don't mean to be saying I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: But I think if she hasn't worked on that, then it's game over. She will get that part right.

I think that part of what she's going to have to be able to do is to not let Donald Trump be the Donald Trump that shows up. Donald Trump is hoping that we're going to have the United States of amnesia, that nobody is going to remember the past year-and-a-half. And so she's going to have to be able to remind people that the guy you're seeing tonight is not the guy you have seen for the past year-and-a-half.

And she has got to do more than just that. She can't just disqualify him. She sometimes gets tricked into saying he's bad, he's bad and forgets how she's going to explain how she's going to make your life better.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWNSTEIN: Right. That's the missing place.

JONES: And she has got to be explain, Obama dug us out of a hole, but I'm going to take you higher. And she hasn't done that well yet.

BURNETT: And how does she do it? Everyone has agreed this is a change election. And he's the change candidate. She's been running as more of the status quo, of I'm going to take over the mantle for Barack Obama. How does she create an image of, no, I am going to be a change agent?

BASH: Well, I actually was told that she is planning on doing exactly what Van has described, to be very aggressive about talking about what she is going to do, that she certainly is going to go at Donald Trump when she thinks he doesn't say something that's factually correct and try to correct him, but that that is not her main focus.

Her main focus is to take advantage of 100 million voters, viewers, voters, watching and to put her best foot forward. BROWNSTEIN: When I talked to Democratic strategists the last few

days, overwhelming, that's what they said. The big missing piece here is that they have -- both sides have essentially made this race about the other personal qualifications.

The Democrats have really laid down no issue case, Van, Priorities USA, the Clinton camp, very little argument against the Trump agenda and very little focus on the Clinton agenda. They need to start getting it back on that direction.

And I bet that will be a principal focus tonight.

ZELENY: At same time, though, his words, as Van said, I'm told, look at her advertising as a guide.

Her advertising is -- I mean, his words are the soundtrack of this. So, she's going to remind people of things that he has said. And she needs to stop his ascent, no doubt about it. It can't be all, but she is going to remind him of that.

The birther thing, in particular, I'm told, if she's not asked about that, she's going to bring that up. She wants to hug President Obama very tightly in this debate tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: So, on the birther issue, though, Kellyanne, what does he do about that, OK, because everyone -- what he said recently was untrue, right, on both counts.

[15:10:04]

He said that she started it and that -- and then -- and he finished it. This is not true.

MCENANY: Well, I think he needs to respond simply with, I have moved on from this, and it's time that the rest of the media moves on from this, because, look, when you look at the poll that came out today, the Bloomberg poll, you saw 46 percent were very concerned about the birther issue, but 57 percent were very concerned about Hillary's e- mails.

Hillary's e-mails are a much bigger bane than Donald Trump on the birther issue. So, he needs to casually dismiss it and move on.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Sounds like he could have troublesome answers on these things in terms of the voting public.

Yes, go ahead, Van.

JONES: I just wanted to say, I think that it's actually ironic that Hillary has allowed herself to kind of get into this personality war, when her policies are actually very good.

I started digging through this stuff. It turns out that his economic policies, according to economic research, would cost 3.5 million jobs.

BURNETT: And add more debt.

JONES: Add more debt. She would get 10 million jobs. That's not according to her. That's according to Oxford.

She's actually got a real positive case to make. Thank you, President Obama, for getting us out of the ditch, but here's where I'm going to take you.

If she doesn't do that tonight, I think she loses a big, big opportunity.

BURNETT: And, Jeff, on the fact-checking issue, which is a very crucial issue tonight and has become central to the entire discussion, in part to the Clinton campaign making it very, very central to their argument here, how does that play out tonight?

The people running the debates have said it's not the moderator's job to do that. It's going to happen in real time on social media.

ZELENY: It is. But what's happening on the stage is more important.

BURNETT: Yes.

ZELENY: And I'm told that she does not want to spend her entire night fact-checking everything Donald Trump has to say. So, her practice sessions have not been getting drawn into some of those mistruths that Donald Trump may say.

But then again, she has to do at least something. I'm told two or three things she will fact-check him on, but not make that the entire point of her argument, because, as Dana was saying earlier, she does have to talk about her positive agenda here.

This is a change election. But she needs to show how she is change. And she's the first woman to stand on that stage as a general election nominee with this many people. I don't think that that's insignificant.

BASH: One term that an adviser used with me to explain what she's going to do is, it's opportunity cost. When she has to fact-check, it's taking the opportunity, but doing what she has to do.

BURNETT: All right, thanks very much to all.

And next, our cheat sheet. Our political director reveals the top three things he's looking for tonight.

Plus, all eyes on the referee. Will tonight's moderator do the fact- checking? A big debate over whether it is Lester's job or not.

And the X-factors. Our analysts predict moments that nobody will see coming.

This is our special coverage. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:55]

BURNETT: There's so much on the line tonight. It's hard to really quantify that. And to imagine, even among two people, one of whom very used to debates, the other very used to large TV audiences, neither of them have ever seen anything like they will experience tonight.

Our political director, David Chalian, is with me now.

Biggest day of the campaign going. It's been going on for a year-and- a-half.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: That's actually something both campaigns agree on, that this is the biggest day of the campaign.

BURNETT: Right. OK. And there, probably the agreements end. OK.

So, there's three specific things, though, that you're focused on. Number one?

CHALIAN: Number one is raising the stakes.

We're in a new phase of this campaign because of where the polls are right now. This dead heat election raises the stakes tonight. This was already going to be a highly anticipated debate, highly watched debate, critical moment, and now even more so, because it comes right at this moment where Donald Trump clearly has some momentum in the national and state polls.

And Hillary Clinton has eroded. Her solid lead that she was hanging onto, small, significant and solid, has started eroding. What are her nerves like on that? What is his confidence level? How does that current state of the rate impact tonight? I think it's huge. I just don't think we can ever overstate how big a deal tonight is.

BURNETT: Well, it is just the psychology, too, about the polls, when you think about it. And Donald Trump, as we know, someone who lives and dies by those polls, and Hillary Clinton a couple recent ones have shown that erosion. Does that affect her psyche?

CHALIAN: Exactly.

BURNETT: All right, second thing you're looking for?

CHALIAN: Checking the facts. We have had this conversation.

I am so curious to see. We know that the Clinton campaign is concerned about Donald Trump, counterfactual information that he's been widely reported about, that he uses from time to time all the time.

My question is -- and I think this is a concern of the Clinton campaign -- does she want to be the fact-checker in every -- at every point, or does she risk then becoming sort of a scold to him if she keeps saying, wait, Lester, this isn't right?

And how much does Lester Holt want to on the role of fact-checker? We know the Debate Commission doesn't want him to have that role? How the facts get checked in real time tonight is something I think is worth watching.

BURNETT: And it's also very risky, right, for a moderator to do that, because you correct, but you get one tiny nuance wrong and the correction could end up doing more harm than good or be inaccurate.

All right, third thing you're looking for.

CHALIAN: This to me is the whole ball game, Erin, the presidential test. This is everything.

Right now, we see that a majority of Americans do not think Donald Trump has the right temperament for the office, do not envision him up to the role of commander in chief in the way they see that for Hillary Clinton sort of sitting there, doing the job. That's fundamental.

She's spent all of her paid media, the last many months really trying to cement the image that he's not qualified for the job. And it's been working. Does he tonight emerge in some way on this big stage having changed that for him in some way? Has he made progress with the American people that they look and they see, wait a second, I can sort of see how, even though he's totally unconventional, that he might be?

If he does, that could be a real game-changer in this election.

BURNETT: All right, David Chalian, thank you.

And next: Will Trump use the same debate style that worked so well for him during the primaries, or will he try something very different tonight?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: You can go back. You're not talking. You interrupted me.

BUSH: September 30, you said...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Are you going to apologize, Jeb? No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:24:40]

BURNETT: And we're live at Hofstra University right now in Hempstead, New York, just hours away from the most anticipated duel of the 2016 election. We haven't used that word, but it may be very appropriate in this context.

Joining me now is Ari Fleischer, former White House press secretary for George W. Bush, and David Gergen, our senior political analyst, former political -- or presidential adviser to four presidents, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Clinton.

[15:25:01]

Ari, let me start with you.

You have been there. You both have been there. So, I want to just talk about these final hours. You know, most of us, you both have been here with debates, but you think about, I don't know, a big game in your life or a big interview, right, you're nervous right beforehand. But there's nothing like what's going to happen tonight, what is at stake, and just a few hours away.

What are they doing in these final few hours, Ari?

ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, in the case of President Bush, he used to work out, he would get a massage. He would just try to get his mind in a different place.

It's too late at this stage to cram, get ready for last-minute details, worry about this or that stuff, in fact, and so you really just want them to get loose, comfortable, ready and confident. And that's how you want them to walk onto the stage.

BURNETT: Now, we know Hillary Clinton's at a hotel near here, maybe getting a massage. I don't know, David.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I hope so.

BURNETT: Yes. What do you say in these final few hours? What have you seen?

GERGEN: I think it's actually worthwhile to do about 30 minutes of a mock debate, just to get warmed up.

It's like coming on a football field before the big game. Get limbered up.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Like throwing a few balls or something.

GERGEN: Yes, throwing a few balls, yes.

But, after that, it's a gorgeous day here in New York. This is a great day to go out and take a walk, relax, do whatever it is that gives you inner peace, so that you're prepared, mentally prepared, for this. Both of these candidates are used to having lots and lots of pressure.

And they both will know, this is what works for me or here is what doesn't work for me. Is it being with a loved one, walking my dog, reading a book, whatever it may be.

BURNETT: So, Ari, then of course you have the issue of the person actually -- the only person who may be more stressed, under more pressure than either of the candidates, of course, is the moderator, Lester Holt.

So, what should he be doing tonight? There's been immense pressure put on him as to whether he should fact-check or not. Let me just be someone in the television industry to say that I think it's crazy for him to fully fact-check everything.

He has no one behind him, even able to help him in his ear. On some facts, he may not know with 100 percent certainty. What role should he be playing?

FLEISCHER: Well, number one, he should not check Twitter. He should not check Twitter the day of the debate and not check Twitter for a week after the debate.

But I think the role of the moderator is to get the two candidates to actually clash over substantive, serious, important and personality- related matters that determine who's the best president, so ultimately the American people, the viewer, can say, here's who I like.

I saw it before me with my very own eyes. The risk to a moderator is if they get drawn into changing this one, checking that one, going off on this one, number one, they could sound like what's important to them is not important to the American people.

If Donald Trump says there's a trillion-dollar deficit and Lester Holt tonight, the moderator, says, no it's $600 billion, that's an accurate fact-check, but does he want to insert himself into every phrase, every sentence?

BURNETT: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: You kind of lose your flow.

FLEISCHER: You lose your flow. You take it away from the American people.

BURNETT: Right.

FLEISCHER: And then you get to the really sticky wicket, which is, did you or did you not support the war in Iraq? Trump said "I guess so" when he was asked about it in an interview. If Hillary says, you supported the war and then the moderator says,

well, no, he only kind of supported the war, should the moderator get into that type of gray area? That's where Candy Crowley, in my opinion, wonderful, unbiased reporter, went wrong four years ago.

BURNETT: So, you worked with George W. Bush, obviously, against Al Gore, in a debate that Al Gore, frankly, should have won, everyone says.

Right? He had the policy experience, he had the debate experience, he had the substantive advantage. And yet he did not win. From that, what advice do you give to Donald Trump, who comes in with a very big deficit on those issues, where Hillary Clinton is so facile?

FLEISCHER: Well, Trump's job tonight is to debate -- it's more like Hillary Clinton. He needs to be more scripted, more disciplined. In that way, viewers can say, at end of the debate, I can see him in the Oval Office. I was scared of him. People said he was unqualified. I think he can do this.

And that means he has to be less boisterous and more gravitas.

BURNETT: David?

GERGEN: Well, listen, there was a fascinating article today in "The New York Times," a long, long set of interviews with people who were in that Gore-Bush debate.

BURNETT: Right.

GERGEN: Because they said it was so similar to this one, the person who was a wonk and knew everything vs. the untested guy who didn't seem to know a lot.

BURNETT: Yes.

GERGEN: And what was interesting, was striking, was, George W. Bush then that summer quietly began preparations, quietly began studying out.

And he had no less than 15 practice rounds before he walked in. In other words, he was -- and Trump has gone to the other extreme, like, zero practice rounds, if we are to believe what they have been saying.

And so he's taking -- he's taking a big risk. Now, I know he feels comfortable doing that, but I think he's taking a big risk. I do think that, because the expectations are so much higher for Mrs. Clinton than they are -- our CNN poll has her 10 points higher than him.

BURNETT: Right, in terms of who people think will win.

GERGEN: In terms of who is going to -- likely to win the debate.

BURNETT: Yes. GERGEN: That I do worry that she's going to be held -- I mean, I

think it's a legitimate concern, will she be held to one standard and he be held to another?

Traditionally, the underdog, if there's a -- the -- if the underdog wins, that's a big upset. But -- and if the other person wins, a favorite wins, that's...