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Retired Admiral Among Secretary of State Contenders; Trump to Meet with OSU Attack Victims; Trump Thank You Tour in Iowa; Trump Names Climate Change Denier to EPA; Trump Lashes out at Union Boss; John Kelly to Lead Homeland Security; Obama Advises Trump. Aired 12- 12:30p ET

Aired December 08, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:16] BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington.

And with his last few cabinet decisions supposedly in the pipeline and yet another Twitter spout under his belt, the president-elect is leaving Trump Tower this hour for Columbus, Ohio. Donald Trump is meeting with victims and first responders from last week's knife and car attack at Ohio State University. And then after that, it's off to Iowa for another of Trump's so-called thank you rallies.

And then there's Indiana, a state that Trump is not visiting today but one very much on his radar. Last night, a man just 43 days from the presidency personally attacked the head of a local steelworkers union who called him a liar for overstating how many jobs would be retained at the Carrier plant in Indianapolis. Moments after Chuck Jones made his case on CNN, Donald Trump tweeted, "Chuck Jones, who is president of United Steelworkers 1999, has done a terrible job representing workers. No wonder companies flee the country." An hour later, this tweet, "if United Steelworkers 1999 was any good, they would have kept those jobs in Indiana. Spend more time working, less time talking, reduce dues."

There is a lot more to get into here. I want to bring in CNN's Sunlen Serfaty, who is also here in Washington, and Ryan Nobles at Trump Tower for us.

So, Sunlen, before we get back to this Trump versus Jones showdown, what can you tell us about the president-elect's meetings today?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, another busy morning, Brianna, for the president-elect today at Trump Tower before he does hit the road. Perhaps most notably this morning, someone who just went in to Trump Tower a few minutes ago and is set to sit down with the president-elect at some point soon is former NATO Commander James Stavridis. Notably, he is under possible consideration for secretary of state. And his name really seems to be one of the few that were added as Donald Trump, in the last week, has really expanded his search for a secretary of state, rather than narrowed it down. We do know from the president-elect himself that he is potentially nearing a decision on this very important role, the most high-profile of all the cabinet picks, potentially coming to a decision next week. After that, early this afternoon, Trump will travel, as you said, to

Columbus, Ohio. He'll be meeting privately with victims and first responders of that OSU attack last week. And then he will be on to Des Moines, Iowa, where he'll be formally rolling out his pick to U.S. ambassador to China, Iowa Governor Terry Branstad. And, of course, that will be his next installation of the thank you tour. These campaign style rallies that we've seen him been doing.

Brianna.

KEILAR: We've been hearing about hires, but the one that we're seeing the most uproar over is Donald Trump's pick for EPA. Tell us about that, Sunlen.

SERFATY: That's right, a lot of pushback for Scott Pruitt, which, of course, was announced formally this morning from the transition team. A lot of Democrats on Capitol Hill and progressive groups really vowing to fight this nomination in some form and bringing up his past comments over climate change. The fact that he is a climate change denier and just as early as last May -- or May of this year, he said the debate is far from settled over whether human activity has contributed to the warming of the earth. Notable comments from incoming Senate majority leader -- Minority Leader Chuck Schumer who said Pruitt will have to answer many tough questions and that nominating process certainly will be a very interesting hearing in January.

KEILAR: Yes, it certainly will be, Sunlen. OK, Ryan, tell us about this showdown that we're seeing between Donald Trump and this union boss. He's a union boss in Indiana. This has gotten pretty heated and it's taken a lot of attention away from other things.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and, Brianna, it shows that the president-elect doesn't take any fight lying down. That if someone's going to come after him, he's going to come right back at that person. And Chuck Jones is the leader of the United Steelworkers 1999, which is the labor union that represents those workers at Carrier. And when he called Donald Trump essentially a liar, that's when Trump went to Twitter and said that he's done a very terrible job running that union. And he blamed him and other union leaders for jobs leaving the United States.

Well, Chuck Jones is a guy that's been in this game for a long time. He's probably never been in a public spat with the next leader of the free world, but he doesn't appear to be backing down in any way, shape or form. He said he can take Donald Trump's criticism. What he just wants from the president-elect is for him to be honest. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK JONES, PRES., UNITED STEELWORKERS LOCAL 1999: You know, you hear all the time how -- how much of a skilled negotiator that he is. You know, he says about himself. So I've been in a lot of negotiations as a union representative. So I would have to assume that he sure as the world either knew the precise numbers or most certainly should have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:05:07] NOBLES: And Jones did say that he is thankful for the role that Trump played in keeping those jobs here in the United States. He just wants Trump to tell his union members and all of America the full story.

Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Ryan Nobles, Sunlen Serfaty, thanks to both of you.

I'm joined now by Scott Hall. He is the president of the Alliance for American Manufacturing.

Scott, thanks so much for being with us.

And you work now, just to explain to our viewers, with this alliance between unions and manufacturers. You also, though, have worked for the AFL-CIA. What is your read on this fight between Donald Trump and the steel workers union boss in Indiana?

SCOTT PAUL, PRES., ALLIANCE FOR AMERICAN MANUFACTURING: Well, I know Chuck Jones. He's a man of deep integrity. He looks out for his members. He was elected by them. So he's not a boss, he's their leader. And I think it's foolish for Donald Trump to try to single out American citizens for criticism for a decision that he's going to make. It's going to be a long four years and he hasn't even taken the oath of office yet. He's going to have to realize that his policies, his deals are going to be subject to scrutiny.

What I admire about Chuck and the steel workers in many of these companies is that they can have disagreements. They sit down across the bargaining table. They try to work out a deal that's good for everybody. They can shake hands and move on. And they will continue to have disagreements.

But this got very personal and it's incredibly unfair. It certainly takes the spotlight I think from Trump's perspective off of what he's trying to achieve, which is boosting manufacturing jobs in the United States and appealing to working class voters. Attacking one of their own is probably not the best way to do that.

KEILAR: Yes, that's a really interesting point that you raise. And one of the things we heard Chuck Jones say was, look, he didn't keep 1,100 jobs. It was 800 jobs. Three hundred of those were administrative, among other types of jobs, that were never going to Mexico.

But he also had said, look, this is good jobs are staying there. What do you think when you see Donald Trump brokering this Carrier deal? Does it make you hopeful? Or do you think that this is just a drop in the bucket and it doesn't have broad impact?

PAUL: Yes, I think, at an individual level, obviously it's a -- it's mostly PR and symbolism, although I'm happy, like Chuck is, for the 730 workers -- the steel workers who will have a job, who come next year face the prospects of unemployment and a much grimmer future. That's no way to run an economic policy, however. Trump's going to have to sit down and honestly he's going to have to sit down with the steel workers if he wants to make changes to trade policy because of a lot of his own leaders of the Republican Party, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, stand in the way of changes like that. It doesn't make sense to drive a wedge in a potential partnership when you could make a lot of progress reaching out on issues like infrastructure investment, on reforming trade policy, and on rebuilding manufacturing, which I think is what a lot of Trump voters are seeking, or at least that's the signal they seem to send in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin, which flipped from red to blue. Those are industrial heartland states. They want to see manufacturing resurgent in this country.

KEILAR: They do.

All right, Scott Paul, thank you so much. Really appreciate you being with us.

And we have a lot more to talk about. Time to get these guys on here. Ryan Lizza is Washington correspondent for "The New Yorker," and CNN political commentator. Juana Summers is CNN politics editor.

So, Chuck Jones, as you know, said that the president-elect was lying his you know what off. He didn't say "you know what." He also gave Donald Trump some credit, though. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK JONES, PRES., UNITED STEELWORKERS LOCAL 1999: Any time I've talked to the media, one of the first things I've said is, I thank him very much for getting involved and help save the 800 jobs that were going and will remain here in Indianapolis. The people -- we are very grateful for what he did. So he's not listening to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, it's maybe for the average person not unusual to hear a scathing criticism loud and clear as well. But now we have Jones getting death threats, right? Do you think President-elect Donald Trump understands the impact that he has when he singles out an individual like this?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think he does. I mean, I think what we've learned over time is, he doesn't take it seriously necessarily. But the impact is much, much scarier when you're on the receiving end and you're just a sort of civilian out there, a journalist, you know, a head of a union, just an American citizen who's a critic. And he kind of sees everyone as the same, a political opponent, the head of a corporation, someone on Twitter that criticizes him.

[12:10:10] He -- he -- you know, a lot of people at his level would have a rule that, you know, you don't punch down, you only punch up, especially when you're the president-elect. He doesn't play by that. So I think a lot of people -- I mean I -- we, in the media, have gotten used to this now. And we know that he, frankly, doesn't take these things so seriously, right, the fact that he can sit down with a Mitt Romney or a Ted Cruz or the people that he pummeled in the campaign and it's sort of all water under the bridge, or even the relationship he's developed with Barack Obama. I don't think he understands it's very different when it's someone like this who's just an average person out there whose life can be changed overnight --

KEILAR: Yes.

LIZZA: When 15 million Twitter followers see that kind of attack.

And let's -- let's just fact check it for a second. Jones is right. Trump is wrong. Trump inflated the number of jobs by about 40 percent. Is that the biggest deal in the world? No. But this guy was right to point it out.

KEILAR: And so -- and the way he points it out, obviously, got under his skin there.

Juana, he's blaming this union head for losing jobs overseas. It was interesting hearing Scott Paul make a point, and I wonder how much you think this is the case. There were a lot, I presume, union workers in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, who supported Donald Trump. Does this sit right with them when a union leader is being criticized?

JUANA SUMMERS, CNN POLITICS EDITOR: Brianna, you're absolutely right. That's one of the biggest things that struck me as I was reading those tweets and watching some of the conversation over the last few hours. This really highlights the divide between union leader, like Chuck Jones, who have said -- not liked Donald Trump, the president-elect, and Mike Pence during the general election and they're rank and file in those industrial, in those rust belt states that you named, who came out and supported him in force and are responsible for elevating him to the presidency. There's a big divide there and I think many people take that for granted. The leadership and the rank and file just aren't on the same page here.

LIZZA: Yes.

KEILAR: Listen to what Robert Reich, Bill Clinton's labor secretary, had to say to -- directly to Donald Trump about this. Very interesting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT REICH, PUBLIC POLICY PROFESSOR, UC-BERKELEY: What you, Mr. Trump, what you -- what you would like is for no one, not a CEO, nobody on television, no journalist, nobody, to criticize you. You take offense at that. Well, you are going to be president very shortly. You are going to have at your command not just Twitter but also the CIA, the IRS, the FBI. If you have this kind of thin skinned vindictiveness attitude toward anybody who criticizes you, we are in very deep trouble. And, sir, so are you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So are you. That's what stuck out to me because even as you have at types Republicans who don't want to criticize Donald Trump, criticism isn't always bad. If you hear a lot of criticism, you might know you need to make a course correction, right?

LIZZA: Yes.

KEILAR: Is this a disservice to Donald Trump, that he's doing these things? And also then that he even has allies who don't want to criticize him?

LIZZA: Well, just to follow up on Juana's point, it's not -- his tweets are often untethered from his ideas and his strategies. I mean, look this is the first president-elect in decades who agrees with the industrial unions about trade policy. These guys could be his greatest allies on some of --

KEILAR: Sure could be.

LIZZA: On what he has said is a core -- part of his -- a core of his economic agenda. And so to shoot your mouth off on Twitter and alienate an important labor leader in the Midwest, who should be a natural ally, when you're going to be fighting Paul Ryan and some of the more free trade Republicans on this issue, just seems counterproductive.

KEILAR: Yes.

LIZZA: But, I don't know. I -- personally, I have become less and less outraged about the tweets over time because I don't think -- I don't think we --

KEILAR: You just stop hearing them, I guess.

LIZZA: You stop hearing them. Maybe they don't take them as seriously as they used to.

KEILAR: They're dull (ph). You're not taking them as seriously. All right.

LIZZA: You know, if Robert Reich's prediction comes true and Trump starts using the IRS and the CIA and whatever else to go after people and not just Twitter, then we have a different story on our hands.

KEILAR: Yes. All right, hang in with me because we have much more ahead, you two. They're going to stay with us.

Up next, when Al Gore showed up for a meeting at Trump Tower, it appeared Donald Trump might be warming up to the idea of fighting climate change. Not so much anymore based on his controversial pick to run the EPA. We have a closer look at Scott Pruitt's record coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:18:20] KEILAR: You're looking at live pictures. This is of Donald Trump's plane at LaGuardia Airport because this hour the president- elect is going to be leaving for Ohio from New York. He's going to meet with victims and first responders of that recent campus attack that we saw at Ohio State University. Then later it's on to Iowa for him. It's part of his thank you tour that he's been on between his election and the inauguration. We'll keep an eye on things there as he moves around.

And after speculation that Donald Trump would moderate his stance on climate change, Democrats are slamming his choice to lead the Environmental Protection Agency. Donald Trump's pick is Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt. He's a climate change denier. This move only adding more confusion on where Donald Trump stands on the issue.

So let's show you what we're talking about here. In 2012, Trump put out this tweet. It said, "the concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non- competitive." Then he said this to "The Washington Post" editorial board in January, "perhaps there's a minor effect, but I'm not a big believer in manmade climate change." And now this on manmade climate change from Donald Trump's recent meeting at "The New York Times." He said, "I think there is some connectivity. There is some something. It depends on how much."

Let's discuss with environmental lawyer David Bookbinder.

David, thanks for being with us.

And just to let our viewers know, you have met Scott Pruitt. You personally like Scott Pruitt, but you're certainly worried about him heading up the EPA. Why?

DAVID BOOKBINDER, ENVIRONMENTAL LAWYER: I'm very worried about Scott Pruitt heading up EPA for a variety of reasons, starting with the climate issue. Scott Pruitt does not seem to accept what almost all of the world's scientists and all the world governments do, which is that climate change is happening. It's caused by human beings. And it has very, very bad effects. So that's the start of the problem.

[12:20:16] KEILAR: OK. So when you look at the biggest risk here, what is the single biggest climate change measure that you think could go away under a Trump administration with Pruitt at the helm?

BOOKBINDER: Well, the current administration has promulgated some protections on climate. The Clean Power Plan, which is designed to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from the nation's power plants. And without a doubt, the Clean Power Plan will now be -- it's dead. The EPA will repeal the Clean Power Plan and there will be no federal program to reduce carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gas emissions.

KEILAR: You heard me there, David, talking about Donald Trump's record. And I think for some people they'd be surprised to know that Trump and his three eldest children signed what was an open letter to President Obama and Congress in 2009, and it said -- it urged them to take action to, quote, "control climate change, an immediate challenge facing the United States and the world today."

And then now you have this appointment of someone who questions climate change period, let alone manmade climate change. Why do you think there is this shift in what we've heard from Donald Trump over the years?

BOOKBINDER: I don't think I or, indeed, anyone else can explain the radical shifts in Donald Trump's thinking from year to year, month to month, hour to hour. What we can do is simply say he has appointed someone to run EPA who does not believe in climate change. And that is extremely dangerous.

But the danger goes further. I mean Scott Pruitt has fought basic protections for clean air, repeatedly suing EPA when EPA tries to protect clean air for people in cities across the country. Scott Pruitt has fought those tooth and nail. And that is extremely dangerous.

KEILAR: We saw the president-elect just this week on Monday, he met with former Vice President Al Gore, a big advocate, one of the biggest advocates on climate change. What do you make of that meeting considering this nomination that we're seeing?

BOOKBINDER: I think it was pure window dressing. I think Donald Trump had no intention of acting in a positive way on climate. I think his nomination of Scott Pruitt establishes that.

KEILAR: You are the former chief counsel for Sierra Club, but it's really interesting, you run a consulting firm with the former chief of climate for Exxon. You work with a libertarian think tank that is in favor of a carbon tax. So to your staunchly Republican friends and colleagues who say that environmental regulations make it very difficult for businesses, they put a drag on the economy, what do you say to them?

BOOKBINDER: They're usually overestimating and wildly inflating those costs. How do we deal with climate change is the big issue. And once you accept the basic science, then the question becomes, what is the most efficient or effective mechanism for dealing with it. The problem with this incoming administration is that they simply don't believe there's a problem in the first place.

KEILAR: All right, David Bookbinder, thank you so much. We really appreciate you. He's a fellow with the Niskanen Center and a co- founder of Elemental VI Consulting. Thank you so much.

I want to bring back now our panel to discuss these cabinet picks. Why do you think Donald Trump, considering he's got it covered when it comes to positions on climate change, why did he settle on Scott Pruitt?

LIZZA: I think that what you're finding is that the Republican Party is in one place on a lot of important issues and Trump is his own person in a lot of ways. You know, the sort of populist, nationalism that he --

KEILAR: But he's picking someone who is where a lot of Republicans are, right?

LIZZA: Yes, but his transition -- his transition is filled with standard issue Republicans, right? There aren't a lot of Republicans like Donald Trump. And so he has always leaned towards being a climate change denialist, frankly, despite what he told "The New York Times" when he said he'd have an open mind and despite some of the reporting --

KEILAR: And despite that letter maybe in 2009.

LIZZA: And some reporting that suggests that his daughter is more -- believes in climate change and is worried about it. And in some of his, you know, one of his hotels in Scotland has pointed to climate change as a problem for the hotel and the rising sea level in Scotland and has actually asked the local government for help to deal with that.

I mean, this is a worrying pick if you believe in climate change. The arctic ice is at an all-time record melting. I mean you go down to Miami, people are seeing flooding that they never saw.

KEILAR: Sure.

LIZZA: I mean we're the only industrialized country in the world where the two parties have a debate on this. Everyone else, it's not whether climate change is the issue, it's just how to address it.

KEILAR: How to address it.

OK. So, let's talk about some of Donald Trump's cabinet picks. We're hearing it's General John Kelly, or we know it's General John Kelly for Homeland Security. How is this pick being received, Juana, and sort of what does he bring to the table?

[12:25:10] SUMMERS: He's a retired four-star general who rose through the ranks of the Marines to head U.S. Southern Command. That put him in charge of the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and put him in a position to deal a lot with immigration, drug trafficking, some of those cross-border issues that he's likely to face in he does become Homeland Security secretary.

The big thing, though, that critics are latching on to is immigration. He's been a tough talker on this topic, telling lawmakers on Capitol Hill as recently as last year that smuggling rings could bring tens of thousands of people across the border illegally into the United States, including children, so definitely some tough rhetoric there. If there's going to be immigration reform, something that many Democrats on Capitol Hill would like to see and some Republicans, in fact, in the next four to eight years, if he is confirmed, I think that's certainly worrying a number of them.

LIZZA: Yes.

KEILAR: Do -- are you surprised when you hear Donald Trump talk about how much advice he's getting from President Obama? And also whether that's true, whether that's sort of meshing with what you're hearing from Democrats in the White House?

SUMMERS: I am surprised. I keep thinking back to that image of President-elect Trump and President Obama sitting together in the White House really cordially, which is frankly fascinating to me given the tough rhetoric on both sides. These are two men who had nothing nice to say about each other during the course of the campaign. But the idea that he could perhaps be getting advice from President Obama, who's been in the White House for eight years, might do something to soothe the critics out there who are just worried that Donald Trump is completely in over his head, he's not getting intelligence briefings, he's not getting the right advice and not taking the job seriously.

KEILAR: And that's the question. And he says he's taking some of President Obama's advice, even on his picks.

LIZZA: Yes.

KEILAR: What do you think?

LIZZA: I think it's -- it's probably one of the best signs so far. Look, there are only a few living presidents. There are only a few people who have been in that position. It's an overwhelming job. And the fact that Trump has a sort of new opinion of Obama and recognizes that whatever I said about this guy in the past, whatever I thought about him, at the very least, he's had this job. I can actually -- I could actually listen. I think it's very encouraging. I think it's not something that anyone would have predicted based on --

KEILAR: Sure.

LIZZA: On Trump's previous opinions of Obama.

KEILAR: Even ideology aside, certainly they have difference of opinion. There's a lot of process stuff that happens as you're president and there aren't many people who know how to handle that. So --

LIZZA: Yes. I don't -- I don't think Pruitt was on Obama's list.

KEILAR: Yes, that's what I was going to say. I don't think that one was.

LIZZA: That's probably not (ph) the ones who advised him on (ph).

KEILAR: All right. All right, you guys, thank you so much, Juana, Ryan.

LIZZA: Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: And up next, two law enforcement officers shot. One of them is dead. The manhunt that just ended in Georgia, coming up.

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