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Soon, Biden Meets with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson; Biden Tries to Salvage Infrastructure Plan Back Home While Traveling and Building Relationships Abroad; Ex-White House Counsel Don McGahn Says, Trump Directed Me to Pressure Deputy Attorney General to Fire Mueller, I Refused. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired June 10, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good, newsy Thursday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Poppy Harlow. So glad you're with us this hour.

At any moment, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson will greet President Biden and the first lady today marking the president's debut on the world stage as diplomat-in-chief. The two leaders will then hold a bilateral meeting where they're expected to focus discussions on U.S.-U.K. relations. This as the president aims to strengthen relations with other key U.S. allies and re-establish, really, our role and democracies role in the world.

SCIUTTO: This week's G7 summit sets the stage for an even more crucial meeting next when Biden goes toe-to-toe, face-to-face with Russian President Vladimir Putin. That will be in Geneva.

Our team all over the U.K., following President Biden's international debut. Let's begin with CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny traveling with the president.

So what will be the topics of conversation with Prime Minister Boris Johnson? Not all friendly, right?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Sure. I mean, we are going to see President Biden meet face-to-face for the first time with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. They have spoken twice on the phone this year early in January, just a couple days after President Biden took office, then again in March. But this will be the first time they are speaking face-to-face.

And the theme, of course, of President Biden's entire European tour is to re-establish the point that democracy matters, re-establish these alliances that really have frayed in the era of President Trump. The interesting thing about this meeting with Boris Johnson, of course, is he was a key Trump ally. So this certainly underscores the potential fraught relationship here. The two have had words back and forth that aides on both sides say, look, it is a new day, a new relationship, and there is much in it for both sides to have a productive relationship.

So, one of the first things they're going to do, really, in a matter of moments here, as President Biden and First Lady Jill Biden make their way to see the Johnsons, is they're going to review the Atlantic charter. This is something, of course, that was signed 80 years ago by FDR and Winston Churchill. And the two leaders are going to sign a revised statement really, you know, spelling out the core principles and core agreements and values between the two nations.

Imagine how much has changed over the last 80 years here. So, some of its new document will reflect the changes in society and indeed the threats around the world.

But, Jim, all of this is leading into a crescendo, if you will, into the meeting with Vladimir Putin next week. But it's orchestrated like this for a reason, for President Biden to meet with leaders here in Europe tomorrow at the G7 as well then going into Geneva next week to show that democracy is key as he heads into that meeting with President Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yes, meet with your friends first and then go stand next to the adversary.

CNN's International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson also with us. Tell us the U.K. point of view of this meeting, because Johnson allied himself very closely with Donald Trump, expressed a lot of admiration for him and meeting of the minds. So, how does he kind of re-adjust to a new American president?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, there are still some legacy issues from that era to deal with. I mean, President Trump was very pro-Britain leaving the European Union, Brexit. President Biden isn't of the view, didn't believe along with many other U.S. officials that Britain was best served outside of the European Union.

And Boris Johnson, to this moment, is wrangling post-Brexit issues, particularly the protocols over Northern Ireland, which President Biden believes could potentially damage the peace in Ireland. So it's not prone to siding with Boris Johnson on that. And Boris Johnson would really like to have President Biden support on that issue.

Boris Johnson wants to be seen as a big global leader. He wants to be standing next to President Biden to get that -- you know, to sort of help deliver that image that is here to do the world good, that he's here for positive change and he stands beside President Biden on all that President Biden stands for. But there will be tricky issues to deal with.

But as I'm Standing here a few meters away, a few yards away over there is the road that President Biden's motorcade is going to drive down shortly. I've just been down there. It is lined with police officers. And a lot of the people who live around here have come out to see President Biden. They're very excited that he's in town. They're very excited that they will get to see him. And what you do in a small English countryside town when a big world leader comes to town? Well, you would roll out the red carpet. They've gone one better here. They've rolled out a whole new stretch of tarmac. The roads are hilly, they're tight and they're narrow. It will be a challenge for the beast. But the president will get a smooth ride.

HARLOW: The beast, the president's vehicle. Thank you, Nic. We're anticipating this at any moment, Jeff Zeleny as well.

[10:05:00]

Let's talk about this as we again wait for the images of them meeting. Our Chief Political Correspondent Dana Bash is back with us and Bobby Ghosh, Opinion Columnist at Bloomberg.

Dana, I'd actually like to pick up with you on the meeting that will happen at the end of the trip, and that is Putin, given what we saw happen overnight, given Putin taking yet another step and designating any groups affiliated with opposition leader Alexei Navalny as extremist group. The White House keeps defending this face-to-face meeting that they requested with Putin as necessary for a stable relationship. It's just not clear at all that Putin wants a stable relationship. What is success for them coming out of this?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you can bet that success is going to be from their perspective how they try to define it. But it's a really good question because, you know, objectively speaking, success for the American president right now is getting Vladimir Putin to back down on any involvement he has in the ransomware attacks, to back down on encroaching on Ukraine, to back down on so many -- on trying to push out and punish -- trying to actually push out and punishing his political rival inside Russia.

Is it realistic that he is going to agree to any of those things, never mind all of those things? No. So that is why you can bet you are going to hear and already are hearing from the administration that the goal and success is opening the dialogue, establishing a relationship, establishing a baseline communication.

And you're right, there has been to-ing and fro-ing about whether or not is even worth it, whether the Russian president deserves this one- on-one meeting from the American president given how bad of an actor he and the Russia government has been.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Bobby Ghosh, the message from President Biden is America is back. And words matter coming from a U.S. president. We remember the negative impact, frankly, of President Trump -- then- President Trump standing next to Putin in Helsinki and kind of taking his word over the word of U.S. intelligence services.

But do U.S. allies in Europe believe that Biden has the muscle and the action to back that message, right, that America is back? I mean, do they see substantive change in addition to messaging change?

BOBBY GHOSH, OPINION COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG: Well, not yet. But this is their opportunity to get a very close look at Biden, to hear from him personally in a closed setting. It's not so much what they say in public but what they say to each other, these leaders of the west in private that will matter.

I think the phase in which Biden got grace marks for not being Trump, that phase is now over. Now, the western alliance needs to see him identify what the Biden doctrine is.

Remember, this comes at a crucial moment in Europe. Europe's traditional leader, Angela Merkel, is the chancellor of Germany, is on her way out. And although Emanuel Macron of France would like to be seen as her logical successor, that is not clear. So this is a moment -- it's not a bad moment for Biden to reassert American leadership of the G7, of Europe, of the west, but it is what he does that will matter more than what he says.

HARLOW: Bobby, it's so interesting to juxtapose, as Jim said, whether it's the way that former President Trump characterized his conversations with Putin in Helsinki or the fact that he said it would be good to have Russia back in and make it the G8 again. With now President Biden saying there will be meaningful consequences for Russia, and that this administration will not hesitate to respond to future harmful activities, it is so strikingly different but Russia keeps up this bad behavior much more than that. I mean, how much more can the U.S. do? Like is Putin afraid of any of it?

GHOSH: Well, so far, he hasn't demonstrated that he's afraid, but the labeling of groups associated with Alexei as extremist is not the most provocative thing that he could have done. In his tool kit of provocative things at the top end, you have sending more soldiers into Ukraine. This is more at the bottom end of the scale. This is a light prod rather than a poke in the eye.

Perhaps there is something to be said for that. Perhaps this is in an indirect way Putin acknowledging that he's now dealing with a new interlocutor in the White House. And so he will be cautious, if not, afraid.

[10:10:02]

He will certainly be cautious in how and how far he intends to go in provoking the west.

But as we said throughout the start of the show, he hasn't yet experienced the pushback that Biden has been promising, and he will keep poking until that moment comes. And when the pushback comes, we'll get a clear measure of Biden and we'll get a clear measure of Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yes, the poisoning of Navalny, right, I mean, that happened after the election.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Dana Bash, one of the most remarkable parts of the America is that message, is that Biden is saying America is back to defending democracy, right, and to being a reliable democracy which is remarkable that a U.S. president needs to say that, right? Given all that we witnessed and continue to witness in this country in terms of former president denying an election went the way it did. How remarkable is that that he needs to say that today, right? And is that a message that U.S. allies find credible?

BASH: Unclear. It's really unclear. And that is one of the most fascinating parts of this first European trip, this first foreign trip that President Biden is on, is the question about whether or not his fellow leaders of democracies in the G7 are going to look at him and say, you know, are you -- you know, are you the same -- are you the president of the same America that we and our predecessors have been dealing with for, you know, a couple centuries? And we don't know the answer to that.

They will know and they do know that as a person, President Biden, Joe Biden fundamentally is. But in terms of how the American democratic experiment is going right now, it's TBD. And that matters in the -- not just in the confines of G7 but much more importantly in the moral authority that the G7 has in trying to encourage democracy more broadly beyond them, in Europe and even more broadly around the globe.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And you have seen Putin take advantage of that, right, saying, you know, who are you to preach? Dana Bash, Bobby Ghosh, so much to watch for as these meetings play out. Thanks very much.

And still to come this hour, President Biden out of the country as his domestic agenda comes to a halt. His months' long effort at a bipartisan deal, for instance, on infrastructure, has broken down in the Senate. Is it time for Biden to abandon his hope of compromise?

HARLOW: Also, closed door testimony now public, what former President Trump's ex-White House Counsel Don McGahn said made him feel trapped.

And the U.S. COVID-19 vaccination campaign going global. The Biden administration donating 500 million doses worldwide. How much will that impact the global pandemic?

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[10:15:00]

HARLOW: President Biden pulling double duty this week while he makes his international debut and tries to build relationship as broad, he's also mediating infrastructure talks right here at home.

SCIUTTO: CNN White House Correspondent John Harwood and Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju following the latest.

Manu, first, pessimism on Capitol Hill today regarding infrastructure but is there optimism on possibility of police reform?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No question. There is optimism on police reform, a bill that could actually rewrite policing practices in this country. That deal could come together as soon as next week. They, of course, have to sell it to each caucus in Congress, that should get it through Congress. So that process will play out. But a lot of pessimism about the issue of infrastructure and these negotiations that are happening right now. Bipartisan talks at the White House is giving time to play out.

But a lot of Senate Democrats say we should not give it more time, we should pull the plug because they don't believe Republicans will come up with a deal with moderate Democrats that can be palatable to most of the Senate Democratic and House Democratic Caucus.

And you're hearing difference sides of the Democratic Caucus weigh in, people like Raphael Warnock telling me that his voters don't necessarily want a bipartisan deal, and someone like Senator Joe Manchin, who's in the middle of everything, saying, let's keep talking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): I think if we can get a bipartisan deal, that's a good thing. But no voter that I talked to in Georgia said to me, what is most important is that we get a bipartisan deal.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): There have been good conversations on everything. I'm just telling, a lot of good faith and a lot of good camaraderie and good -- you know, everything has been working well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, the question will be whether or not someone like Senator Joe Manchin will get onboard a strategy to try to pass legislation and infrastructure package along straight party lines, there is a budget maneuver in which they could do just that. But they need all 50 Democrats to get behind that approach. And Manchin is simply not there yet. He wants a bipartisan deal, which is why these talks are happening, along with Senator Kyrsten Sinema, who is helping lead these negotiations.

And I just also spoke to another senator who's involved in the talks, bipartisan talks, Senator Angus King, an independent who caucuses with Senate Democrats. I said, will you get behind this Democratic-only approach if these talks break down? He said, I will cross that bridge when we come there. And I said, well, what about Democrats who say it's time to pull the plug? He said, I'd tell them let's give it more time.

[10:20:01]

So we'll see how much more time they give it. But the Democratic leadership are prepared to move on their own come July. The question is can they get their caucus to fall in line.

HARLOW: And it seems like that's -- we're not going to know until we know, until if they do pull the plug and then you're going to see what Angus King does, you're going to see what Manchin does, what Sinema does.

John, the president is dealing with a lot on the world stage and calling members of Congress from across the Atlantic on this?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know that he's made any calls yet but he is certainly keeping in touch. His staff is working with people on the Hill. And he will get involved if he thinks he can make a difference.

But the pessimism that Manu just described on Capitol Hill is widely shared within the White House as well. The issue is, though, they don't have any choice but to go through this process. Because the only way that they're going to keep all 50 Democrats together behind what Joe Biden wants to do in the end, in a Democrats-only push, is if they go through this stage first.

They went through the negotiations that President Biden was quite significantly involved in with Shelley Moore Capito of West Virginia, the Republican senator, those collapsed this week. This is the remaining stage of the bipartisan process. It involves both Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, who are two of those 50 essential Democratic votes. If they can't succeed here, then the question is going to be do they fall behind Biden?

I think the belief in the White House is that they will but there is no choice but to go through this process, try to talk it out, explore exactly what the limits are of what Republicans are willing to spend on infrastructure and how they're willing pay for it.

Joe Biden has got his hands full on the world stage. His chief of staff, Ron Klain, has stayed behind here to be involved and shepherd that process. But, again, the pessimism is pretty widely shared at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue at this point.

HARLOW: Thank you both, John Harwood and Manu Raju. We'll stay on it. Well, the point of no return, that is actually a quote from former White House Counsel Done McGahn, about how he felt dealing with his former boss, then-President Trump. We'll have more of this newly released testimony, next.

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[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: House Democrats have just released a transcript of testimony given behind closed doors by former Trump White House Counsel Don McGahn. McGahn told lawmakers that he felt, quote, trapped by Trump insisting that he pressure the then deputy attorney general to fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller over the Russia probe.

HARLOW: His testimony came after House Democrats waged a literal two- year court battle just to get him on the record in testimony.

Let's bring in our Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig to discuss, also a former federal and state prosecutor.

He confirmed a lot of what was in the Mueller report, which is important to sort of see it under oath in his own words there, as he was with Mueller too. But I guess the forward-looking question is so now what? I mean, any consequences for anyone?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Poppy. The shame of this situation is that Don McGahn gave such important testimony, such damning testimony really about former President Trump being almost obsessed with obstructing justice, trying his hardest to obstruct justice, save really only by Don McGahn's refusal to go along. Don McGahn is no hero here but he did save President Trump from his own worst instincts.

But here we are two years later, and you have to ask that question, what are the sequences? This would have been much different if Don McGahn got in front of Congress, got in front of the cameras, back in 2019 when the Mueller report had just come out versus now we get these dry transcripts.

What is going to happen? Really, that's a question for Merrick Garland, for DOJ. Merrick Garland has made a big point recently about saying nobody gets special treatment, better or worse, based on who they are. Well, does that apply to Donald Trump? That's a question for Merrick Garland that he's going to have to answer.

SCIUTTO: To your point, Elie, the Trump administration blocked McGahn from testifying at the time, fight it out in the courts. Yes, they eventually lost but two years later, I mean, is the message that obstruction works, right? I mean, he eventually lost but the testimony comes out now after, as you were describing it, in effect, it's actionable really against the president, the former president at least. Well, what message does that send about the way our system works? I mean, because, in effect, it was successful obstruction.

HONIG: Yes. The foot dragging certainly worked for President Trump. And this was a hallmark of the Trump administration, the Barr DOJ, so many times. This is one of many instances where Barr's DOJ came up with some flimsy legal pretense, absolute immunity or the like, and it takes forever to through the courts. And by the time we get a final resolution either from the courts or negotiated, like in this case, it's two years later, Trump's long gone. And the question really becomes what are you going to do?

But I also want to give some blame here to House Democrats. Jerry Nadler was slow and weak in his response to Don McGahn's stonewalling, to Bill Barr's stonewalling. It took Jerry Nadler four months to even get this case into court, crucial four months from April to August of 2019. And then the case just dragged on and on in the courts to the point where here we are two years later, we get this incredibly damaging testimony and there is really not much likelihood anyone does anything with it.

HARLOW: just -- can you build on that, Elie, in terms of what Merrick Garland could do?

[10:30:05]

I know you're questioning what he will or won't do. What could he do with this?