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O.J. Simpson Dies; Republicans Divided Over Surveillance Law. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired April 11, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:02]

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And Gaetz was arguing that he believed it was going to help him take down the rule. Certainly, that is what happened yesterday on the floor of the House of Representatives.

And we should just underscore how unusual it was before this Congress for rules to go down, these procedural votes, in this kind of fashion. Usually, if you don't like a bill, you don't vote for the bill, but the tradition had always been that the majority party would help get the process started on the floor.

That is simply what this rule vote was. And yet they still couldn't get it over the finish line. Right now, what we are hearing from the speaker's office is that there is a hope that they might be able to go back to the House Rules Committee, restructure this rule, and create some kind of harmony among Republicans to actually get this debate started on the floor.

But, again, they are up against a deadline, as intelligence officials are making clear that they are very concerned about FISA not being reauthorized by the April 19 deadline, arguing that the impact on their ability to collect intelligence would be severe at a time when there are so many threats happening against the United States at the same time.

Now, there is a big question right now about what Johnson's future holds, what his speakership holds, given that threat from Marjorie Taylor Greene. And Republicans are just frustrated with the level of tumult and chaos that they are experiencing day to day working in their jobs.

Here's one of those members.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): All you have to do is say, we have got seven more months until the presidential election. Let's try to not completely burn the damn place down. Let's not burn the place down. Let's just get Donald Trump to do -- that's it. That's what we should focus -- that's my focus.

We're dysfunctional. We are. It's become somewhat embarrassing. And it may bite us in the butt a little bit in November. My focus is Donald J. Trump now, because we can't -- nobody can manage this conference. The lord Jesus himself could not manage this conference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: Now, obviously, this big meeting tomorrow between Speaker Mike Johnson and President Trump at Mar-a-Lago is going to be an important moment for Speaker Johnson, as he tries to both hold on to his speaker's gavel and navigate the next several months on Capitol Hill -- Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Lauren Fox, thank you very, very much.

All right, we're following some important breaking news right now. O.J. Simpson has died at the age of 76.

CNN's Stephanie Elam has more on his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): O.J. Simpson soared to fame as number 32 for the Buffalo Bills...

O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: I'm sorry for all of it.

ELAM: ... and plummeted to infamy as inmate number 1027820 in the Nevada Department of Corrections.

In between, Simpson led a life filled with more surreal drama than all of his various film and TV projects combined.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: O.J., are you...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. Come on.

ELAM: Mass media experts say Simpson's sensational televised low- speed chase...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have O.J. in the car.

ELAM: ... arrest and murder trial...

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, ATTORNEY: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit.

ELAM: ... stand as the first reality show and perhaps the greatest three-ring television phenomenon ever.

At one point, the world heard O.J. Simpson's ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, say:

NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON: I don't want to stay on the line. He's going to beat the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of me.

ELAM: Then later, Simpson was charged with the horrific murders by knife of Nicole and her friend Ron Goldman.

FRED GOLDMAN, FATHER OF VICTIM: Ron and Nicole were butchered.

ELAM: The trial made lawyers and even witnesses household names.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.

ELAM: When the jury freed Simpson, celebration erupted in parts of Los Angeles.

But Simpson would never recapture his idle status. Simpson first sprinted into the national spotlight as the Heisman Trophy-winning running back at the University of Southern California. Then, 11 spectacular years with the NFL vaulted him to the pro football Hall of Fame.

Simpson cashed in on the popularity...

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Go, O.J., go!

ELAM: ... becoming a pitchman for and an actor, becoming well-known for the "Naked Gun" movies.

NARRATOR: O.J. Simpson as you have never seen him before.

ELAM: Simpson played a lawman on screen and ran into trouble with the courts off-screen. He lost the multimillion-dollar wrongful death suit brought by the families of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, then moved to Florida.

In 2000, Simpson was accused of assault in a road rage incident in Miami. He was found not guilty. In 2005, he was found guilty and fined for stealing satellite television. Then, in 2007, in Las Vegas, police arrested him on several felony charges, including kidnapping and armed robbery.

In that case, Simpson and armed accomplices raided a hotel room in what he called an attempt to just get back some of his stolen belongings.

O. SIMPSON: And I didn't know I was doing anything illegal. I thought I was confronting friends and retrieving my property.

[11:05:01]

ELAM: The Nevada jury never bought his story and instead sent him to prison. He was released on parole nine years later in the dead of night, with no fanfare and no bright future, just the distinction of arguably the greatest rise and fall in pop culture history.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thank you, Stephanie, for that report.

Once again, we're following the breaking news right now. O. J. Simpson has died at the age of 76.

CNN's Jean Casarez covered O.J. for several years and is joining us right now.

Jean, let's talk a little bit about O.J. Simpson. Go ahead.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, there is a tweet that has come out from his family. We do want to read that for everyone.

And it says: "On April 10, our father, Orenthal James Simpson, succumbed to his battle with cancer. He was surrounded by his children and grandchildren. During this time of transition, his family asks that you please respect their wishes for privacy and grace, the Simpson family."

You know, Wolf, there are really two O.J. Simpsons, because one is that football hero that this country adored for so many years. And, in Southern California, I think those of us from Southern California believe that we got to know him originally because, as a graduate, he graduated from USC, was the Heisman Trophy winner.

He was everything to people in Southern California, after then going on to the Buffalo Bills and also the San Francisco 49ers.

But when I really started talking with him personally myself was at that Las Vegas trial. I was the correspondent for his Las Vegas trial. It was kidnapping. It was armed robbery. I think people thought of it sort of as a funny thing, a joke, but the courts in Nevada thought of it as very serious, because the potential was decades in prison.

But, every day, I would go to the courthouse, and he was there. He was on bail. So he would just be in the hallway. He would be in the gallery. He'd be talking to people. Once he found out that I was from Southern California and I was a USC graduate, he wanted to talk to me all the time, because his passion was football. His passion was USC. He loved it.

And he was very -- he wasn't nervous about what was happening at that trial, although the evidence was not good against him, and he was ultimately convicted on all counts and all of his cronies. It was all his golfing buddies. And they had gone to try to retrieve what had been his personal property, but it was owned by someone else at the time.

Unfortunately, some of them had a couple of guns, and so it became an armed robbery situation. But he just took it in his stride. But he was very nice to everybody, very humble to everyone. And everyone knew what he'd been through in California and all the questions that remained about the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and also Ron Goldman.

But he was convicted on all counts. He was sentenced to 33 years in prison over three decades. He served it out in Lovelock, Nevada, which is a northern -- a central -- outside of Reno, Nevada. And he served nine years, and he was released. And I was there when he was released, as the correspondent for the network. And it was a very subdued thing. But he stayed in Las Vegas. The next day, we heard he was golfing once again at home in Las Vegas. And that's where we believe he stayed for the remainder of his life.

But there were definitely two O.J. Simpsons. And now secrets are possibly gone forever because the murder of Nicole Brown -- Nicole Goldman -- Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman, we may never know the real truth. The jury acquitted him in 30 minutes. We know that. So he was acquitted. But what really happened to the lives of those two people may forever become a secret.

BLITZER: Jean, I want you to stay with us.

I also want to bring in our CNN contributor Bob Costas, who's joining us right now.

Bob, what's your reaction to the death of O.J. Simpson? How do you think he will be remembered? And talk a little bit about the tremendous cultural impact he had as a player in the NFL, an actor and as a criminal defendant.

BOB COSTAS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, as great as he was as a player -- and it's not enough to say he was a Hall of Fame-quality player. He was one of the handful of greatest running backs in the history of college football and then the NFL.

And he also had a quality that's difficult to define, and statistics alone don't capture it. He was wonderful to watch. And he was always gracious with the press, was outgoing. He was not just admired, but beloved.

And then to your point about being a cultural force -- this is all prior to the murders -- he was, if not the first, he was the first to do it in a big way, an African-American athlete who broke through.

[11:10:06]

He used to say -- I may have the quote incorrect: "I'm not black. I'm not white. I'm O.J."

And part of that was almost exemplified by a little stereotypical sort of blue-haired lady saying, "Go, O.J., go," as he ran through the airport in the rent-a-car commercials. And there were zillions of other commercials. And as Jean outlined in her piece, or as the piece that preceded Jean coming on outlined, the "Naked Gun" movies or countless television appearances, the movie star (AUDIO GAP) everything, everything about him, people (AUDIO GAP) more or less.

There were pockets of the black community -- and I remember James Brown and I talking about this. He didn't dislike O.J., but he (AUDIO GAP) racial issues. So there was that.

But, by and large, he was one of the most popular, not athletes, one of the most popular people in the United States. I didn't know him well when he was playing football, predated my time at NBC. Then, eventually, we wound up being colleagues (AUDIO GAP) shows (AUDIO GAP) football on NBC.

And he was a (AUDIO GAP) remember the name of (AUDIO GAP) who brought coffee when you first got on a set, to everybody, willing to show up at charity events, good company at dinner...

BLITZER: Yes.

COSTAS: ... or on the golf course, all those things.

And then everything changed in June of 1994. And (AUDIO GAP) his life, the first thing that will (AUDIO GAP) subsequently, the (AUDIO GAP) themselves, the low-speed (AUDIO GAP) cover (AUDIO GAP) beginning, better or worse (AUDIO GAP) television.

BLITZER: Yes.

COSTAS: And then, although he lived some 30 years after that, most of that was lived off the radar with his own (AUDIO GAP) friends playing golf. He did have a Twitter account .

And, occasionally, he posted stuff (AUDIO GAP) other thoughts, but he was a shadow figure.

BLITZER: You know, it's really amazing.

When I think about O.J. Simpson, of course, I remember when he played for my Buffalo Bills. I grew up in Buffalo, and I'm a huge Buffalo Bills. Fan. And O.J. was just a special player. He was loved by everyone in Buffalo. We were thrilled whenever we would see him on the field. He was really, really a special NFL star.

And those of us who love the Buffalo Bills were so grateful and appreciative that he was playing for our Buffalo Bills.

Stand by, Bob.

I want to bring in our Christine Brennan, our CNN sports analyst, as well.

Christine give us your reaction to the death of O.J. Simpson.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Wolf and Bob, this is, of course, an American icon, someone who transcended sports, as, of course, Bob was referring to.

I mean, what we see now with athletes today, be it Caitlin Clark recently, of course, Tom Brady, Serena Williams, LeBron -- I could go on and on -- the first-name basis that we're on with these athletes, the fact that we absolutely expect to see them on commercials, as we saw with women's basketball, you're watching the games, and then they go to commercials and you see Caitlin Clark time and again or Angel Reese.

This, to me, really started with O.J. and the Hertz commercials that Bob was referring to, that the -- as a girl growing up in Toledo, I knew O.J. because I was such a sports fan and such a nut about sports. I, of course, knew him for his Buffalo Bills days and the big 1973 season, when he ran for over 2,000 yards, 2,003. I will always remember that number.

And, of course, I knew him as an athlete. But I also knew him as a pitchman and that crossover appeal into every living room. So, even if you didn't love football, you knew O.J. because of his ability to transcend sports and, of course, become the businessman and the pitchman that he was.

And then the trial, and, of course, the civil trial, which you -- you know, the civil case he lost, and the fall from grace, it was extraordinary and well-deserved, absolutely self-induced, and a man that would never be seen the same again, and so, yes, truly an American story, cultural, sports, everything, the rise and fall of O.J., but a major, major part of our lives for the entirety of our lives.

BLITZER: It's amazing when you think about that rise and fall. It was so dramatic.

And so much of that fall, as a lot of us remember who are old enough to remember that was seen live on television, the trial, the aftermath, and all of that, it just had such a huge impact. And all of us remember that, the video of the car chase that was seen -- was seen live on television as well.

[11:15:13]

These were moments that many of us, Christine, and I'm sure you as well, will never forget.

BRENNAN: Well, that's true.

And, in fact, I was working at "The Washington Post" at the time. And the moment the car chase happened, which was going on during an NBA game -- I was not covering that game. I was at home. My sports editor, George Solomon, got on the phone with me and said: "Fly to San Francisco immediately." That was the next morning.

And I went and knocked on O.J. Simpson's sister's door. We fanned out because we knew this story was going to be so huge and threw every resource from "The Washington Post" at this story. And I ended up being in California. The sister was very nice to answer the door, did not want to speak to me. That was fine.

And then I flew to L.A., and I helped out with the coverage there for several weeks. This was an extraordinary time, when news organizations had money to throw at these things. We don't as much now.

And just the amount of journalists, the amount of reporters, it was alluded to earlier, the number of superstars in the media who started or gained fame, as well as, of course, the lawyers, Kardashian, of course, so much of our cultural history and more, it came and emanated from that, kind of launched from that story, as well as careers in the media. And so, yes, that was a big deal for me. I remember covering it. And

it was all hands on deck, Wolf, everyone. This is so big, and we know it's so big. And "The Washington Post," among many, many news organizations, was all over it from the very beginning.

BLITZER: It was so huge indeed. It was really an amazing moment for so many of us, indeed, around the country.

All right, stand by for a moment.

I want to bring in our legal analyst, Joey Jackson.

Joey, you remember that O.J. Simpson trial. He was charged in the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Let's talk a little bit of how that divided the country to a certain degree, right?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it really did, Wolf.

What a day, and certainly what a historical moment that was in so many respects, not at all forgetting the two deaths and certainly the prosecution's efforts to bring those deaths to justice, as we look there at a pivotal moment, Wolf, right? Everyone remembers, "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."

And I think, when you talk about the division of the country, I think Johnnie Cochran, the attorney he was, the person who certainly I look up to still to this day, it was about really having a trial that deflected and talked about the racism of the LAPD and really made that front and center as to why O.J. should be acquitted, questioning the issues with respect to the police protocols, the police practices, what they did, how they focused and targeted on him, to the exclusion of other evidence.

Just assembling a dream team -- it wasn't only Johnnie Cochran. You remember Barry Scheck. You remember Ron Goldman -- you remember a number of other people who were on that dream team with regard to what they did in challenging DNA and looking and assessing chain of custody issues in terms of the evidence was contaminated in any respect, whether or not the blood that was there belonged to him, what -- just challenging every piece of evidence.

And so I think what they did, Wolf, in really acquitting him was to focus their efforts not on the deaths and on domestic violence and on other issues which would have pointed to his guilt, but talking about Mark Fuhrman and the N-word and racism.

And just, in some respects, yes, it did divide the country. In other respects, it was a feeling of that there was finally justice for a person that some thought and certainly his team thought was falsely accused. That's very controversial.

Obviously, he was found liable with respect to the civil case, but, as it related to the criminal case, he was acquitted. And I think that was done in large measure by the -- certainly the tremendous lawyering that was done in that case. And I think any lawyer, such as myself and others, learned a lot from that. And -- but I don't want to deflect, of course, from the deaths that

took place and the loss of lives, obviously, that occurred, that affected and impacted so many and, of course, those families, the Goldman family and, of course, his ex-wife, but pivotal moment in history, one that will go down forever as really starting a culture of people being attracted to a cycle of trials and covering trials and what those trials meant and following every moment.

Invention of Court TV and the aftermath, and just certainly inspirational for attorneys such as myself to look to other models of how we could perhaps have careers of our own.

BLITZER: And so many of us were glued to our television. CNN and other networks were taking that trial live. There were video cameras inside, and you could watch it unfold. It was really a dramatic moment.

[11:20:03]

And I think it's fair to say -- and, Joey, I'm anxious to get your thoughts -- that that trial and the way it was covered, the television coverage of it especially, it had a huge impact on how we look at so many of these trials nowadays, didn't it?

JACKSON: It really did.

I mean, look, the reality is, is that it was -- it came to all of us every day. And I could remember, in just finishing law school and becoming a prosecutor in Manhattan, of how everyone was just glued to every moment of the trial with respect to every witness, the evidence that was introduced, looking at Judge Lance Ito and how he conducted his courtroom.

Looking at the motions, that the defense were challenging every bit of evidence, looking at blood splatter evidence, looking at DNA, looking at what we see there as the glove doesn't fit moment, looking at how the prosecution put together its case, looking at the defense theories of the case.

We followed, everyone followed every moment of that trial. And I think it really led to a fascination of not only crime and criminality, but how the media could cover this, what people thought of it, and whether or not this could really be an industry of its own, right, the invention of Court TV, the fact that there have been so many trials since, Wolf, that have been covered by CNN and other networks.

Because we know that people are interested in justice, people are interested in injustice, and people are interested in a search for the truth, and, certainly, people are interested in assessing whether, in their view, because they have seen it, and they were the 13th juror, whether the jury got it right.

And so this will be a case that's debated throughout all time as to whether the jury got it right here. But I think great lawyering and a great legal team was able to overcome a significant amount of evidence in this case to perhaps acquit their client. And, at the end of the day, it's whether there's proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

And if that standard is not met, then, obviously, a jury acquits, and that's exactly what they did in this case.

BLITZER: Were you surprised with that acquittal, when O.J. Simpson was acquitted of killing his wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and Ron Goldman?

JACKSON: So, I do have to say, I mean, I know hindsight is 20/20, and we could reinvent history.

But I was surprised, and not that he didn't have, as I noted before, an exceptional legal team, not that they didn't raise significant issues relating to the glove, relating to the blood, relating to Mark Fuhrman, relating to racism of the LAPD or alleged, right, in terms of how they handled the case, the rush to judgment, the investigation that was flawed.

Notwithstanding all of those things that the defense brought up, it was not only a surprise that he was acquitted, but at the -- really the quickness in which he was acquitted. But I think, again, it was because the defense really put it to the prosecution. And prosecutors, I think, learned from the case that you can't take anything for granted. You have to deliver your case.

And even in the face of things that can conceivably be obvious, you still have to really teach your case to the jury in the most effective way possible. And, again, there's two people who were dead here. That is a significant thing. And I think their families are ailing to this day and will be ailing for the rest of their life.

So, to us, it was entertainment. For -- to them, it was about an injustice, that they believe, right, the Goldman family, of course, and Nicole Brown Simpson, But the fact is, is that, wow, from a lawyering perspective, it was lawyering 101. And while it may have surprised, that is, the verdict, people who looked at it, at the end of the day, that's our system, 12 jurors establishing proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

And to the extent that you can't do that, our system demands and requires that a jury acquit. And as Johnnie Cochran said, as we continue to look at the gloves there, "If they don't fit, you must acquit."

And those themes are important, because they teach lawyers that you're telling a story to a jury every time you get before one. Whether you're a prosecutor with your narrative, whether, of course, you're a defense with your narrative, you have to teach your theory of the case. You have to tell your story.

And to the extent that you connect that story to a jury, you prevail. To the extent the jury rejects your story, you do not. And so I was indeed surprised at the verdict. But that's our system. We respect the system of justice. It'll be controversial, Wolf, to the end of all time...

BLITZER: Yes.

JACKSON: ... particularly since he was found liable in the civil case.

But I think his dream team really was historic.

BLITZER: Those were such powerful words. "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit." And they really had a huge impact on that jury.

Joey, stay with us.

I also want to bring in our CNN anchor and chief legal analyst, Laura Coates.

What's your reaction, Laura, to the death of O.J. Simpson?

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: My goodness, what a legacy of sorts to have left in the criminal justice system. Also, for so many, prior to this tragedy of the death of two people and the case, he was viewed as a sports icon.

[11:25:00]

But just to pick up where Joey, my esteemed colleague, left off, I mean, there was no one who had not heard of or was not watching what unfolded for that trial, from the Ford Bronco going -- going down the highway, to I remember being in school and being able to -- as a collective high school, being able to take out of your classroom and watch the verdict as it was read.

That is how much it had been ingrained into our society. And when you look at this, on the eve, frankly, of another high-profile case, when people are wondering what jury selection will look like, when they're wondering what the impact of a high-profile defendant will have on the jury pool, on the ability for the prosecution to make their case and meet their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, what an extraordinary time.

It was names like Johnnie Cochran, and Marcia Clark, and Christopher Darden, and F. Lee Bailey, and Alan Dershowitz, and Lance Ito, just to name a few, that became part of our everyday conversation and known to the American people.

And what was also known is, this case was viewed through a particularized lens. It had people talking about race in this country.

It had people talking about wealth in this country as a part of a two- tiered justice system, the ability to afford counsel of the stature that O.J. Simpson did, the idea that, over the course of American history, when the race of the victims is different from the race of the defendant, that the result of the jury's verdict oftentimes did not inure to the benefit of the defendant.

In this instance, the defendant, the black man, having been convicted -- acquitted of murdering two white victims, was one that was discussed in terms of race in our justice system, in terms of what this meant in the long run. And it was, for many, a subversion of how people viewed the justice system.

This case is something that we look to when we are comparing, how long might jury selection take? What about the civil process, the preponderance of evidence standard versus beyond a reasonable doubt? The way to view the O.J. Simpson trial is, on the one hand, through the lens of the families of those who have lost their loved ones.

It's also through the lens of a -- to some, an indictment of the criminal justice system, to others, one of the virtues of the criminal justice system, when a prosecution is unable, according to the jury, to meet their case and make their case.

But I tell you, I looked at this and have had the -- as so many have, and have studied this case, not only for the length of the jury selection, the evidence that came in, the idea of race in the police and law enforcement. Who can forget the Mark Fuhrman moments and others in this instance as well?

And although we often reduce the defense to the phrases of "If the judge -- if the glove does not fit, you must acquit," think also about the facial expression of one Johnnie Cochran, of one O.J. Simpson when they prevailed in this instance.

I suspect it was as much, despite his legal prowess, of a shock that a case like this would have led to an acquittal as for anyone else. But, at the end of the day, Wolf, this case has been solidified in American history as one of the quintessential high-profile trials from which prosecutors for time immemorial and defense counsel as well will look to see what it takes to prevail in a matter of such a high-profile stature.

BLITZER: It was really a unique moment watching all of this unfold, like millions of Americans, Laura.

And I'm sure you remember we watched the trial all day live on CNN. And then, at night, we wanted to get analysis and get a review of what exactly happened. We would spend the 9:00 p.m. Eastern hour watching "LARRY KING LIVE." He would devote the entire show to what happened in that trial that day.

COATES: Yes.

BLITZER: It was really special moments for all of us.

We learned so much about the law. We learned so much about O.J. Simpson, the lawyers who were involved, the prosecutors who were involved. It was really an incredible moment in American history, especially for those of us who were interested in the legal profession and how it unfolded.

And we're just showing our viewers some pictures, some images from that trial. Really brings back so many memories.

Laura, I want you to stand by.

I want to bring in John Miller right now, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst.

John, Joey Jackson, you may have heard him, spoke a little while ago about this trial. Explain a little bit more how this case changed, specifically changed law enforcement. And I think you agree it did, because we all learned so much about the forensics and so much else.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, of course, it became the first and most famous of the mega TV murder trials. It practically launched Court TV as an entity.