Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Monday, Ex-President Stands Criminal Trial for First Time in U.S. History; Trump and Rep. Mike Johnson (R-LA) to Make Joint Appearance at Mar-a-Lago; House Vote Next Hour on Modified FISA Reauthorization Bill. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 12, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

A grim warning from former President Donald Trump, who says his people, quote, get extremely angry with what's happening.

That's ahead of Monday when for the first time in history, a former American president will stand criminal trial. Trump is accused of trying to buy the silence of a porn star. Stormy Daniels, he allegedly had an affair with.

Trump denies the claims and has tried to delay the proceedings time and again, but with just days left that tried and true or somewhat true strategy is running out of runway. Earlier this week, his last ditch effort to delay failed for the third time in three days.

This morning, we should note, the U.S. Secret Service says it is ready to go to provide protection for the former president, adding that it will, quote, not seek any special accommodations outside of what would be required to ensure the continued safety of the former president.

Meantime, Trump is on a Truth Social tirade, railing against the case, the judge and the entire system of justice in this country, crying witch hunt and spewing lies about President Biden's alleged involvement, unproven involvement and uninvolvement in the prosecution. Obviously that is not true.

Joining me now on all of this, CNN Legal Analyst and former Obama White House Ethics Czar Norm Eisen. He's also the author of the new book, you need to check it out, Trying Trump, A Guide to His First Election Interference Criminal Trial.

And, Norm, I mean, that sums up your feelings on this case. You've created a handbook for this trial. Walk us through it because the canard that you hear out there is that, well, this one is just not that important, it's not as important as January 6th. And so this is an important trial and there could be very big consequences for the former president. NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's true, Jim. And that's why I wrote Trying Trump to give both sides of the question. Is this just a personal peccadillo, as Trump, I think, will argue, his defense case, just an affair, and they wrote some wrong words down on some papers, they called it legal fees instead of repayment of funds to Michael Cohen, or, is this a case, as Judge Merchan is going to read to the jury when they come in, this is New York law.

He is going to say the allegations are that Donald Trump entered an agreement with others to, quote, unlawfully influence the 2016 presidential election.

So, the stakes in this debate, and I fully ventilate Trump's side of the story in the book, and the trial will be about which of these two visions is right. But the stakes in this debate are, was this pattern of actions, where $130,000 benefited the Trump campaign allegedly in an election that was decided by 80,000 votes across three states, another sex scandal was hidden right after Access Hollywood, could have swung that election, that pattern of deceiving voters to change an election outcome.

Of course, that's the same pattern as the Jack Smith case in 2020, as the Fani Willis case in 2020. That's Alvin Bragg's view that this is an important campaign election and democracy case.

ACOSTA: And I do want to mention because Trump has been very vocal on the Truth Social platform. He has made some comments that I think are disturbing. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was recently informed that another corrupt New York judge, Juan Merchan, gagged me, that's gagged, like you can't talk. These cases are all rigged. It sounds fair, doesn't it, to be gagged, but it's not. It virtually never happens. It only happens to me because I'm able to tell people what's happening, and those people get extremely angry with what's happening.

This judge should be recused, and the case should be thrown out. He's totally conflicted. There's never been a judge more conflicted than this one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: He keeps going after the judge, calling him conflicted and so on. But there's that moment in that video that we play right there. We don't play all of his Truth Social tirades, but when he talks about his people getting extremely angry.

EISEN: Yes.

[10:05:00]

ACOSTA: It sounds like a veiled threat, once again. EISEN: Remember, 2020, January 6th, he tweeted, will be wild. And then the words on The Ellipse that are charged as incitement in the January 6th case, although in a different form, he's not charged with insurrection. He's charged with, again, just like the 2016 case, a conspiracy to unlawfully influence the election, and, of course, innocent until proven guilty.

But, Jim, in that context, with the repeated history of his words leading to risk and danger and violence, that's why this gag order is in place. Contrary to what he said, it's not unusual. And when he says his people get angry, that should be a flashing red light.

ACOSTA: And that's why I wonder you know heading into Monday, what is Trump going to try to do to derail this? I mean, I suppose one of the last things that he could possibly do is try to provoke the judge to the extent that the judge has to take action. Could that potentially interfere with the proceedings?

EISEN: I don't think Judge Merchan is going to let it. I counted and many of these are documented in time --

ACOSTA: Do you think he's probably expecting that?

EISEN: In trying Trump, I counted his delay efforts, 11 efforts to delay this trial, three more this week alone on venue, on trial, suing the judge over the gag order, suing, the judge over presidential immunity, which really makes no sense. It has no place in this case. He is desperate. He'll try more undoubtedly next week. I don't think it's going to work.

And the question we have to ask ourselves, and, again, the book is a deep dive into this, both sides of this question, Jim, why is Trump so frantically fighting this case if it is, as some say, the least important or just merely a personal peccadillo?

He knows that these are serious felonies. He knows if he is convicted, if Alvin Bragg makes the case to the jury but to the court of public opinion, if he's convicted of election interference here, if Bragg proves that case, he is facing not only the harm of a conviction, but a possible sentence of jail time. That would be devastating. That's why he has tried to delay it.

ACOSTA: And the polls have shown if there is a conviction, it could really have an impact on this race. Norm Eisen, as always, thanks so much. Make sure to check out Norm's book. I really appreciate it.

Also happening today, House Speaker Mike Johnson will join Donald Trump for a joint news conference at Mar-a-Lago later today about the upcoming presidential election. The two Republican leaders are set to talk about, quote, election integrity, despite the fact that Trump's own administration officials, we will remind you, said the previous presidential elections was the most secure in American history. And to add some context, Johnson was a key congressional figure in Trump's failed effort to overturn President Biden's victory in 2020.

CNN's Kristen Holmes joins us now from West Palm Beach, Florida. This should be quite a show, Kristen. What do we know about this news conference?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we heard that they're going to talk about two things. One thing is that they are expected to re-litigate the 2020 election, which isn't that surprising, since both of them tried to overturn that election. Johnson is actually key behind the scenes trying to get these congressional signatures on a lawsuit in Texas that would have tried overturn the election in various states.

But the other big thing that they're going be talking about is this idea of non-citizens voting. There's been a conversation about whether they're going to present some kind of bill, but we know that they are going, quote/unquote, draw attention to this issue.

Now, I want to be very clear, Jim, there is currently a federal ban on non-citizens voting in federal elections, so that is a non-issue. But we've seen Republicans really use this as a rallying cry, starting with the former president himself. He has actually gone as far to say that Democrats want undocumented citizens coming across the border to help them in the 2024 election. Obviously, there is no evidence of that at all.

Now, one thing I do want to make clear here is that there are some states in which various cities have moved forward on passing legislation that would allow non-citizens to vote in particular local elections. Again, not federal elections, which is what these two men deal with, but in local elections, like a school board election.

But now what you're seeing is various states coming forward and putting forward these laws that say non-citizens can vote -- cannot vote in elections. So this, again, has become a rallying cry, particularly as immigration has risen to a top concern of voters in 2024.

ACOSTA: And, Kristen, sources say that this event was Johnson's idea. I mean, I suppose it comes at a time when there are all these questions about whether he can hang on to the speaker's gavel.

[10:10:00]

HOLMES: Yes. And, Jim, one of the things to keep in mind here is Donald Trump has not come out to support Johnson, but he's also not come out to support Marjorie Taylor Greene's motion to vacate. It seems unlikely that he wants to get involved on either side because, I am told by sources, he doesn't want another speaker's fight, but he also is very close to Marjorie Taylor Greene.

So, this is an opportunity for Johnson to stand alongside Donald Trump at his home at Mar-a-Lago talking about something that Donald Trump wants to talk about, which is elections. This is giving him a boost at a time where he really needs it.

ACOSTA: All right, Kristen Holmes, thank you very much. The question -- one of the big questions this morning hanging over what's going to be happening at Mar-a-Lago is how far will Speaker Johnson push election misinformation at that appearance with the former president this afternoon?

A reminder, back in 2020, then Congressman Johnson sent an email to every House Republican pushing them to support a sham lawsuit that sought to invalidate electoral votes in key battleground states. And in the run up to the insurrection on January 6th, he's spewed misinformation about the election time and time again, telling an astonishing number of lies that have been repeatedly then debunked.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): You know, the allegations about these voting machine, some of them being rigged with the software by Dominion, but there's a lot of merit to that. When the president said the election is rigged, that's what he's talking about, that it was -- the fix was in.

When you have, you know, a software system that is used all around the country that is suspect because it came from Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. And in Georgia, it really was rigged. It was set up for the Biden team to win. This system is set up for massive fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Of course, Hugo Chavez, all of that that he just said, none of that is true.

Let's discuss with CNN Political Commentator Scott Jennings and Larry Sabato, the director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia is also author of the book, Return to Normalcy, The 2020 Election That Almost Broke America.

Larry, I mean, it's kind of remarkable to go back and listen to that audio and contemplate the fact that Mike Johnson is now the speaker of the House of Representatives. What do you make of this event that's taking place at Mar-a-Lago later today? And I it sounds as though both Trump and Johnson will continue to push these election lies.

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Yes, they'll continue to push them because they've gotten away with them for years now. It really is a big lie. And it's not surprising at all that Donald Trump would continue to do this. What is at least mildly surprising is that Mike Johnson, who wasn't speaker when he pushed this hard in November of 2020 and beyond, now is speaker. He's actually in line to be president after the vice president.

And I have a hard time even uttering the words, election integrity, without laughing derisively, because it is a made up joke. That's all it is. The degree of fraud in U.S. elections is infinitesimal. And what Johnson and Trump and all their allies have done is to dramatically increase cynicism in the electorate, especially the Republican electorate. And that is to be deplored by everybody, I would hope.

ACOSTA: Yes, Scott, what do you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, obviously, the things that were said about Dominion are not true and that's being litigated in civil cases. And to Dominion's great benefit, I might add, they've obviously gotten some satisfaction --

ACOSTA: Yes, it got a big payoff from Fox. Yes.

JENNINGS: Yes, absolutely. I mean, really the, you know, you look at the political question of all this is what's this election going to be about? And when you think about what is on the minds of the American people versus what's on Donald Trump's mind, you know, 80 percent of the time, that's the question he has to answer here. Are we going to talk about the things, like inflation and immigration and crime, et cetera, or are we going to re-litigate these 2020 claims? Is that going to be the centerpiece of a platform for president or are we going to talk about the broader issues that really he's on pretty firm ground in doing?

So, I think that's really the push and pull that's going on here. As a political matter, what are the American people need to hear to return you to the White House when you've got a pretty weak incumbent you're running against?

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, I do think it's a challenge for Trump, politically speaking, if he's just going to sound like a wind up election doll -- election-like doll action figure. I mean, I just -- again, I know we've talked about this so many times. How does this help him in the suburbs of Philadelphia? How does this help him in the suburbs of Atlanta and Phoenix and Detroit, Larry? To me, I just don't understand how the election math adds up for Donald Trump if he continues to do this.

SABATO: Well, he's stirring up his base. He's trying to get a maximum turnout from them. But your point is well taken. And what Scott just said is absolutely correct. If Trump is going to be re-elected, it's going to be on inflation and the border and some other issues, although I think inflation and the border are the two key ones.

[10:15:07]

But he spends his time and energy talking about a justification for what he's already done.

Deep down, or maybe right on surface, he knows he's lied all along. There is nothing there but he refuses to admit that he lost. He lost by over 7 million votes.

And so the Republicans have saddled themselves with a nominee who can't distinguish between the issues that could win him another term and issues that will have no impact whatsoever beyond his base who are already for him.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Scott, I mean, Vice President Kamala Harris is in Arizona today to campaign on women's reproductive rights. She's expected to blame Trump for that near-total ban in Arizona that dates back to before Arizona was even a state. How big of a moment is this for the vice president? And it does sound, I mean, she is sort of the Dobbs point person now. For all -- there's been criticism for Kamala Harris on the Republican side, obviously, and even inside the Democratic Party, you know, when is she going to be more sort out in force for the Democratic ticket? It sounds like they've found the issue for her to campaign on, be out and front on.

JENNINGS: Well, I expect all Democrats, Harris, Senate candidates, even Joe Biden, to be spending most of their time on this topic. They need this election to about something other than inflation and the border, so they're going to pick a topic on which they think they have more credibility with the American people.

You've seen the Arizona Supreme Court give them an opening to do that, so it's not surprising to see them take advantage of that. And I suspect they are going do it for the rest of the year. If the number one issue on the minds of American people is inflation at food prices on Election Day, they're in real trouble. If they can muddy those waters and get them thinking about other issues, such as abortion, then they have a fighting chance here.

But that's the gambit for them is to try to stave off these tier one concerns and elevate things like abortion to the top of the national conversation.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Larry, I know you've looked at, and this is part of what you do at UVA, you put out the crystal ball and you look at the election map, not just for the presidential race, but Senate races or congressional races, gubernatorial races. How much has Dobbs, and it almost seems like every week there's another state that has a very draconian abortion law that is coming to the fold because of the way Roe came crashing down?

For example, Kari Lake, I don't know if you've seen this, is lobbying Arizona lawmakers to overturn that abortion ban in that state, which she once called a, quote, great law. Here is how she has echoed Trump's abortion rhetoric in recent days, which Trump, of course, has been all over the place on it. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Did Arizona go too far? Did Arizona go too far?

TRUMP: Yes, they did, and it will be straightened out.

KARI LAKE, ARIZONA REPUBLICAN SENATE CANDIDATE: This total ban on abortion that the Arizona Supreme Court just ruled on is out of line.

TRUMP: You must follow your heart of this issue.

LAKE: I agree with President Trump. T his is such a personal and private issue,

TRUMP: I'm strongly in favor of exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother.

LAKE: I agree with President Trump. We must have exceptions for rape, incest and the life of a mother.

TRUMP: Both sides wanted and in fact demanded be ended, Roe v. Wade. They wanted it ended.

LAKE: Both sides of the issue admitted was unconstitutional.

REPORTER: Would you sign a national abortion ban if Congress sent it to your desk?

TRUMP: No.

LAKE: As your senator, I will oppose federal funding for abortion and federal banning of abortion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It's incredible, Larry. I mean, it's almost as though she's not really running for the Senate. She's aiming to be his vice president.

SABATO: Well, I'm sure she'd like to be, but she lost the governorship in 2022. It was a governership Republicans could easily have won with a more centrist candidate. And, of course, she is running the U.S. Senate now, and she doing it as a Trump acolyte. She's been banking on the chances that Trump would probably carry Arizona this time. He didn't need to swing many votes, but abortion has intervened. Reproductive rights have intervened.

And if anything, I'd say the Arizona is now leaning Democratic, both in the Senate race with Congressman Gallego, but also presidentially because of the abortion issue.

Now, seven months is a long time. We'll have to see what intervenes. But abortion, reproductive rights is going to help Democrats all across the country. Why? There are going to be a thousand of these horror stories that arise not just from swing states but from these hardcore deep red states that have passed virtual bans on abortion. You can see it coming.

And it outrages both men and wome, but particularly women, particularly suburban women who are swing voters and who can re-elect Biden.

[10:20:06]

ACOSTA: And, Scott, can Trump win the election if he loses Arizona?

JENNINGS: Sure. I mean, you know, you put together some configuration of states. Of course, it gets a lot easier when you start recalling states that you narrowly lost before. And as Larry said, it doesn't take that many votes to swing it. I actually think Trump is slightly ahead in Arizona right now, like he is in most of the swing states. And it's not on anything other than the back of lack of confidence in Biden and inflation.

Now, can abortion find its way up the chain here and convince people to overlook their concerns about Biden, his age and his policies? That's the seven-month question that -- you know, it's the algebra that the Biden campaign is trying to do. And the algebra the Trump campaign is trying to do is can we keep the election focused on these other issues and continue to kind of peel away from this non-white working class that used to be a core of the Democratic Party that now seems to be leaking towards the Republican Party. It's like two ships passing in the night. They're not really talking to each other but they are talking to groups of people who may be open to shifting parties under the sand.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, if you look at Ohio, Kansas, Wisconsin, Virginia, I mean, a lot of these states, people were voting on abortion. I mean, it was just remarkable to see.

All right, Larry, Scott, guys, thank you very much.

Still to come this morning, a test of Speaker Johnson's leadership up on Capitol Hill after an embarrassing defeat, the push to get a crucial surveillance law to the finish line appears to be making progress. We'll get you the latest on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

ACOSTA: All right. The next hour on Capitol Hill, we're watching this right now, House Speaker Mike Johnson trying to untangle the latest embarrassment to his leadership just two days after former President Donald Trump led a Republican revolt to defeat a foreign spying bill. Some Republicans have reportedly warmed to a revised version that is making its way through the House right now.

The stakes are considered huge, not just for the speaker, but for U.S. national security. The intelligence community has warned FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, is essential to protecting the U.S. from terror attacks. The law allows the U.S. to collect communications of non-Americans overseas without a warrant. It's due to expire a week from now.

CNN's Lauren Fox is up on Capitol Hill for us. Lauren, what's the latest?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so just a few minutes ago, House Republicans were able to pass that rule that 48 hours ago was a major stumbling block for the House speaker.

They made a significant change in this legislation in that it now reauthorizes the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act for two years rather than five years. That was a major victory for some hardliners who are looking at the November election, optimistic that former president Donald Trump could win again, be in the White House and then be in a position to make additional changes to this legislation going forward.

Now, this procedural rule actually passed on the floor. The next question, of course, will the underlying bill pass? There is a series of amendment votes that will begin around 11:45 A.M. this morning. Depending on what happens with those votes including, one amendment in particular to add a warrant requirement to spying on any Americans that get swept up in FISA data collection, that amendment is key. Because if it gets included maybe this bill still passes out of the House but then it could run into major hurdles over in the United States Senate. There is an April 19th deadline to get this all finished up.

And the White House has been watching very closely to see what final form this bill takes, not weighing in on what they're going to do until they see what that bill actually looks like. Jim?

ACOSTA: All right, very interesting, not out of the woods yet. All right, Lauren Fox, thank you very much.

Let's continue this discussion. Joining me now is William Cohen, a former Republican senator who served as defense secretary during the Clinton administration. Mr. Secretary, thanks, as always, for being with us.

Can you imagine FISA not being reauthorized? What would that do to the intelligence community?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON: I can't imagine that. That would be an abdication of everyone in the Congress, the responsibility to protect and defend the American people in our Constitution. The former president is opposed to this FISA because he thinks it was directed at him. Everything is always directed to him. It is protection of all Americans and not directed at former President Trump.

So, I think something will be done. I think there will be modifications, but, nonetheless, I can't imagine any member of Congress saying, I'm voting against FISA and we'll go without it until the next person comes into office. I don't think that would be, number one, dangerous and absurd.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, Secretary, coming to that point, I mean, this morning, the speaker sent out a statement with this kind of framing. He says the revisions of the surveillance measure, quote, would stop the FBI's abuses of FISA Section 702 inquiries and prevent another phony Russia hoax investigation by the FBI. They still cannot stop making these shameless concessions to Trump.

COHEN: Well, don't we have to the top committee heads, either Homeland Security and Intelligence, saying that the Russians are here, that the Russians are trying to alter our election once again? Trump invited them in back in 2016. They came. They've been here ever since. And now they are bombing us with bots and other types of misinformation, disinformation.

[10:30:00]

And, once again, the Russians are here.

And I think that anyone in the House who says we don't need this protection, they are aiding and abetting the Russians.