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Boeing Whistleblowers Testifies On Capitol Hill; Columbia Univ. President Testifies About Campus Antisemitism. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 17, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Big news up on Capitol Hill right now where a former senior manager at Boeing, Ed Pierson is answering Congress -- Congressman's questions. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED PIERSON, FORMER SENIOR MANAGER FOR BOEING: There is an inherent conflict of interest. The Department of Transportation has been completely useless in helping the FAA do their jobs. They have continued to take a hands-off approach to this entire matter.

My third point is if the leaders of those government authorities, again -- government agencies had done their jobs, investigators would have uncovered a mountain of important information. The FAA would have known Boeing's production processes were a mess, and the safety culture was terrible. The FAA could have prevented an ever-increasing list of production quality defects.

Instead, they're surprised each time that occurs. Showing how ineffective and reactive their oversight has become. Just last month, the FAA reported on uncommanded rolls, MAX airplanes due to wiring that is being chafed.

Boeing and the FAA have known about these manufacturing defects for more than two years and did not inform the public about this potentially catastrophic condition. There are also Canadian reports of new MAX airplanes with chafe wire bundles containing burn marks and evidence of electrical arcing. Routine -- excuse me. Boeing routinely states that their airplanes meet or exceed all safety standards.

This is untrue and misrepresents the safety of the airplanes. The company illegally removed thousands of quality control inspections on individual airplanes without the FAA's knowledge and without the knowledge of the airlines. Although many of these inspections have been reinstated, hundreds of airplanes have left Boeing factories without those thousands of inspections.

My last point is the Department of Justice and FBI relied on the slanted results of the first MAX accident investigation to develop an illegal and unjust deferred prosecution agreement. The NTSB chair reiterated to Congress last week that Boeing has said there are no records documenting the removal of the Alaska Airlines door. I'm not going to sugarcoat this. This is a criminal cover-up. Records do in fact exist. I know this because I've personally passed them to the FBI. A few -- a five-minute testimony is not nearly enough time to explain how insidious the story is. Boeing's corporate leaders continue to conceal the truth. They continue to mislead and deceive the public about the safety of the planes. That is the safety culture at the top of the Boeing company right now.

The good news is the employees of Boeing, and these agencies can overcome poor leadership. We need them to be successful. They're highly capable. They need to be supported and encouraged. And these problems are fixable, but it starts with telling the truth. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Mr. Pierson. Mr. Jacobsen.

JOE JACOBSEN, FORMER FAA SAFETY ENGINEER: Thank you, Senators. My name is Joe Jacobsen. I'm an aerospace engineer with almost 40 years of experience. I worked for Boeing from 1984 to 1995 on the 767 and 777 programs.

From 1995 to 2021, I worked in aircraft certification at the FAA. I retired from the FAA in 2021 and have been volunteering as an independent aviation safety advocate since mostly in support of the ET 302 families.

On November 6, 2018, a week after the Lion Air 610 crash, I received an e-mail from a colleague asking if we had done any issue papers on MCAS. This was the first day that I heard about MCAS. The next day, although not assigned to the crew crash investigation, I received an e-mail from a colleague at the FAA, which contained flight data recorder information from the Lion Air crash.

[11:35:08]

It was immediately obvious to me that the 737 MAX had a serious design flaw. I saw that the horizontal stabilizer was repeatedly moving at a high rate because of a faulty angle of attack input. I guess that a software error was responsible.

A few days later, I was shocked to discover that the airplane was purposely designed and certified to use just one AOA input for this flight-critical function. When the House report was released in September of 2020, I finally understood why I hadn't known about MCAS. Boeing meeting minutes from June 2013 recorded the reason saying if we emphasize MCAS as a new function, there may be a greater certification and training impact.

Boeing intentionally hid the design from FAA engineers and airline pilots. Had we known at least a half dozen experienced FAA engineers in Seattle -- in the Seattle office would have immediately rejected the original MCAS design. Boeing's concealment led to two crashes and 346 deaths.

After working on the recertification of the MAX after the second crash, I sent a letter to the parents of Samya Stumo shortly before my retirement in March of 2021. I saw their anger and grief and wanted them to know the true story and not the false narrative presented by Boeing and FAA. Over the last three years, Samya's parents have connected me with many other crash families.

I frequently communicate with the devastated people who have lost loved ones in the 8302 crash. I've heard many inspiring stories about those who are lost. Stories about Samya, Mick, Camille, Melvin, Bennett, Danielle, Graziella, and others.

The recertification of the MAX has been characterized as the most comprehensive in the history of aviation. This is also a false narrative. During the recertification of the MAX, FAA leadership supported Boeing's effort to narrow the scope to primarily focus on MCAS. MCAS was a mess for sure. But other critical items were off the reexamination table.

The MAX crew alerting system doesn't meet current design requirements. And by my count, the old standard has contributed to eight fatal crashes of Boeing aircraft and 885 deaths since 1996. Despite this dismal safety record in July 2022, Boeing Chief Safety Officer Mike Delaney stated, I personally have no belief that there's any value in changing the 737.

CEO Dave Calhoun lobbied further and said, this is a risk I'm willing to take. If I lose the fight, I lose the fight. Boeing's lobbying efforts ultimately succeeded.

The grandfathered design of this MAX leaves many vulnerabilities when combined with a failure to investigate the manufacturing chaos identified nearly six years ago by Ed Pierson. This has led to a predictable, but still shocking list of unsafe conditions. I've spent almost 40 years studying and trying to eliminate aviation accidents. Ignoring problems, taking shortcuts, and deceiving the public just leads to more crashes.

I'm testifying today out of my great love and respect for the crash family members that I know. Michael, Nadia, Nisha, Catherine, Ike, Chris, Javier, and others don't want this to happen to anyone else. I also have children and grandchildren. Let's work together to fix this now. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks, Mr. Pierson. Mr. Pruchnicki. Professor?

SHAWN PRUCHNICKI, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF INTEGRATED SYSTEMS ENGINEERING, THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: Chairman Bartholomew, Ranking Member Johnson, and members of the committee, good morning, and thank you for the opportunity to testify today. I'm an assistant professor in both Integrated Systems Engineering and the Center for Aviation Studies at The Ohio State University. Prior to teaching at Ohio State, I was an airline pilot. During my time teaching at the university, I earned my Ph.D. in cognitive systems engineering. Although there have been slight variations in the exact definition, one has been for safety culture, one that has been used for years, decades, even in our shared beliefs, assumptions, and norms, which may govern organizational decision-making, as well as individual and group attitudes about safety.

[11:40:00] An incorrect understanding of safety culture is that it is commonly referred to as a single concept, but rather consists of four individual specific components, whereas each one provides its own unique actions to the overall concept of safety culture. And without one of these, the element and structure of culture will fall apart. As such, each serves the greater goal of providing a robust, effective. and well-proven safety tool for all high-risk industries, especially given its proven value in aerospace industries.

It should be made clear, this culture concept is not only for airline operations but rather any aerospace operation where the risk of injury or death is a possibility to employees and/or customers after product delivery. This is extremely important in determining an organization's overall safety culture as they are all -- as they all complement each other. To be successful, organizations may not simply choose --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: All right. We're going to continue to monitor this really explosive very important hearing before the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Subcommittee on Investigations going on potential threats from Boeing. And we're hearing some pretty devastating testimony under oath by these former Boeing executives. Pete Muntean, our aviation correspondent been watching all of this unfold.

This is amazing. And it's very scary. These guys who all worked at Boeing, they're whistleblowers. They're now saying that when Boeing says they have met safety standards, Ed Pierson said that is untrue.

When Boeing leaders say that they -- others are concealing the truth, Joe Jacobsen said that Boeing seems to be concealing the truth. And it goes on and on and on. Give us your assessment.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: There have been whistleblower accounts after whistleblower accounts, which has brought a lot about Boeing's safety culture to life. The latest one, we heard from Sam Salehpour, who was a quality engineer on the Boeing 787 line. That plane manufactured in Charleston, South Carolina.

And he essentially said that that plane is not safe. That the joining of the fuselage main portions of that structure, the gaps are too large. And so, he is asserted newly just last week that those gaps have become too big, and the plane could theoretically fall apart in flight.

Boeing has been very much on the defensive leading up to this hearing, knowing that it would be relatively explosive. There's a lot of rehash here, not only about the issues with the MCAS system on board the 737 MAX that caused those two fatal crashes in 2018 and 2019 that led to the killing of 346 people on board. But also, there is a new allegation here about the door plug on board the 737 MAX Nine, which led to its grounding for about 20 days in the U.S. And now, there's this issue with the 787. This is what Sam Salehpour said to this Senate committee just now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM SALEHPOUR, BOEING ENGINEER: I found gaps exceeding their specification that were not properly addressed 98.7 percent of the time. I want to repeat that. 98.7 percent of the time, the gaps that they were supposed to be shimmed, they will not shim.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: The issue here Boeing says is that some of the tolerances on these pieces of the fuselage onboard the 730 -- 787, excuse me, are so, so tight. We're talking five one-thousandths of an inch. That is the width of essentially these two sheets of paper or the width of a human hair.

Boeing says in some cases, that's not all that necessary and may have been too extreme in some cases. So, it's allowed itself a little bit of leeway on board these planes. Boeing insisted in this press briefing that I was on on Monday, that its 787 is not at risk of falling apart in flight and it has no evidence of fatigue failure on board its planes, the very strong airplane is made of carbon fiber, stronger than the aluminum structure that has been used in older airplanes.

This is the statement from Boeing though, on the record. It says we're fully confident of the 787 Dreamliner. These claims about the structural integrity of the 787 are inaccurate.

Boeing also says it has done work to ensure the quality and long-term safety of the aircraft. So, another huge day when it comes to the safety concerns about Boeing here. This one is about quality control issues. That was the issue on board the 737 MAX nine.

Boeing came forward and said that was an issue. This is something Boeing insists is not the case when it comes to the 787. Although, we will see as this hearing plays out what the response from Boeing will be.

BLITZER: Yes, it's pretty, pretty devastating. I've heard a lot of testimony over the years from airline executives, but this seems to be the most potentially, potentially alarming. Pete, stand by for a moment. I want to bring in the former FAA safety inspector and CNN Safety Analyst David Soucie.

[11:45:05]

David, thanks so much for joining us.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Hi, Wolf.

BLITZER: Boeing, as you know, as you just heard, has strongly denied the whistleblower's allegations calling the claims inaccurate. But the company has also had several issues with other planes -- other of his planes, including the 737. MAX. Give us your analysis of what's going on.

SOUCIE: Well, as Pete said too about the fit-up of the 787, I wanted to do -- address that first. Before the press conference, I spoke with the engineers at Boeing about what this means. And like he said -- like Pete just said, it's the width of a human hair, and they fit up, which is where you put the two pieces together and then you measure to see -- you put a feeler gauge in there and you see -- and again, it's five one-thousandths of an inch, to see if it fits to that close. And they do. They fit that properly.

The second piece, which I think is the biggest concern, is the fact that as they drill the holes to attach that, there are pieces or shards of aluminum, they get between that fit up. So, then they do that what was called the pull-up. And that's what I think that the whistleblower is referring to, is that that didn't meet the meet-up first, the fit-up before they did the pull-up.

So, what he's saying is that that could cause some problems. Now understand, I've worked on assembly lines many times in my life. I've worked for the FAA as an inspector to inspect these processes.

And personally, I really think that he's correct that it did not meet those standards before the fit-up. But after you do the pull-up, and those stretch -- those shards are pushed together, I currently don't see a problem with what's happening right now with the 787. I don't think these things are going to fall apart.

You said potentially, and theoretically, they could fall apart or crack. I don't see that risk, honestly, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. We'll have to see what the engineers say about this as they go forward in the investigation.

BLITZER: And we'll find out, I'm sure. But, David, is there a culture problem with Boeing right now? Is that the problem, the culture there?

SOUCIE: Absolutely. There's been a culture problem there for a long, long time, Wolf. And I think everybody in the world knows that at this point. We're going to get this report back from the FAA and they're going to tell us what they think about it.

But it's clear that there's a culture problem there. And I attribute it to one thing, and that is that the mission statement and the vision statement of Boeing for the last 10 years, did not have the word safety in it. The mission statement, and the vision statement, thing that every employee at Boeing, every employee on the line, assembling aircraft needs to know that they have a direct line of sight to what their goal and objective is, and that is safety.

They have quality. They have production. They have leadership. They have all of the other things that corporations want to see in their vision statement.

What they don't have is what we want to see on a manufacturing line, which is that word safety. Safety needs to be the driving force, the shining star that everyone goes toward. And that's what's been missing from Boeing. They need to find a CEO that will carry that message forward, and make sure everyone sees that and understands their role in that company. BLITZER: Yes, we all fly. So, this is also so worrisome. Very quickly before I let you go, Pete. The FAA has just announced that it's grounding all Alaska Airlines flights nationwide at the airline's request.

MUNTEAN: We're learning that this has now ended. This was an issue that Alaska Airlines had behind the scenes with calculating the weight and balance of planes before they take off. And so, the airline asked the FAA to issue a ground stop for all of its flights.

This one into place at about 10:30 Eastern Time and ended about 11:30 Eastern Time. So, things are going to get back to normal. Although we know typically after one of these ground stops is issued, this can cause things a bit of a ripple effect.

And the -- and the deck of cards can come tumbling down for an airline. Usually, when it lasts this short, it's not a huge reverb, but we will see as the day goes on. We'll be monitoring those.

BLITZER: Mostly of those Alaska Airlines planes Boeing jets?

MUNTEAN: A lot of those are 737 MAX nines. They have all sorts of other types too. This doesn't really connect to the Boeing issue, but they did ground 737 MAX Nines during that grounding. They were impacted by that.

BLITZER: That was worrisome as well.

MUNTEAN: Yes.

BLITZER: All right, Pete Muntean, thank you very much. David Soucie, thanks to you as well. And we'll be right back with more news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:30]

BLITZER: Happening Now up on Capitol Hill. The President and Board members of Columbia University are testifying about the rise of antisemitism and the growing tensions on college campuses due to the Israel-Hamas war. Here's a part of the testimony at least so far.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEMAT SHAFIK, PRESIDENT, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Antisemitism has no place on our campus. And I am personally committed to doing everything I can to confront it directly. Trying to reconcile the free speech rights of those who wanted to protest and the rights of Jewish students to be in an environment free of discrimination and harassment has been the central challenge on our campus and numerous others across the country.

Will it work? There have been periods in history when antisemitism is in abeyance. And they were characterized by enlightened leadership, inclusive cultures, and clarity about rights and obligations. Those are the values I cherish and that I am determined to bring to Columbia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And joining us now, Jonathan Greenblatt. He's the CEO and national director of the Anti-Defamation League, the ADL. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us.

As you well know -- as all of us know, a few months ago, college presidents from Harvard, MIT, and the University of Pennsylvania all faced national scrutiny over this specific issue. And now, Columbia University officials are unequivocally saying that calls for the genocide of Jews violate their code of conduct. Are you satisfied, at least so far with today's testimony from what you've heard?

[11:55:01]

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO & NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, look -- I will say a few things, Wolf. Number one, I am pleased to see Congress using its oversight authority and holding college presidents and university officials accountable to ensuring that all students, irrespective of their faith or their ethnicity, are protected and supported on their campuses.

Secondly, I was glad to see President Shafik's op-ed in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. I've seen her cite ADL data already this morning. And I just appreciate her acknowledging what seems to me a pretty basic fact that some of her colleagues failed that in December, that calling for the genocide against Jews or any group of people is incompatible with the university's values.

But I think ultimately, Wolf, we will judge President Shafik in Columbia, not just on what she says, but on what she does. It was good earlier -- or late last year when they suspended one of the pro-Hamas groups on campus. They must continue to enforce their policies at Columbia to make sure that all their students are safe.

BLITZER: And beyond that, Jonathan, what additional -- what other steps do you want to see Columbia University and other universities for that matter, to take -- to keep Jewish, Muslim, and Arab students on campus safe?

GREENBLATT: Well, let's be clear that antisemitism specifically is an exploding problem on all these campuses. We released our audit yesterday of two -- incidents in 2023, nearly 750 on these campuses last year. That is a massive increase over the previous year. So, yes, all students irrespective of how they pray or where they worship need to be safe. And yet antisemitism is a clear and present danger in these places.

So, what should they do? Well, we released a report card last week grading the schools, including Columbia, which unfortunately got a D. What should it do?

Number one, add the antisemitism to the DEI training that you offer all the students. Number two, simply enforce the rules and if students you know incite violence against their peers, they should be suspended. Number three is time and place for protests.

You should be able to exercise your freedom of speech. You should be able to say highly controversial things. But if your idea of, you know, liberating Palestine, involves harassing students walking to hell, or spitting on Jewish kids wearing a Jewish star necklace, I'm sorry, doesn't belong at Columbia or anywhere else for that matter.

BLITZER: I quickly want to ask you about the very controversial decision by the University of Southern California, the decision to cancel its Muslim valedictorian speech at this year's graduation ceremony.

GREENBLATT: Yes. Look --

BLITZER: The University of Southern California said, "to be clear, this decision has nothing to do with freedom of speech. There is no free-speech entitlement to speak at a commencement. The issue here is how best to maintain campus security and safety, period."

CNN spoke to the student last night, Jonathan. I want you to listen to her response to this controversial decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASNA TABASSUM, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA VALEDICTORIAN: I think the thing that is at the core of this is that it's not about my speech, right? And reinstating my speech is only part of the battle here. I think something more important to consider is the implications and the social commentary behind this decision, and what it points to in terms of universities values. Creating an environment in which I am revoked by my speech privileges, common to the university's commitment to academic security, academic integrity, and academic discourse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: She's the valedictorian. Are you concerned by the University of Southern California's decision, Jonathan?

GREENBLATT: I give USC an A on this decision, Wolf. The fact that this woman is a Muslim has nothing to do with it. They have asked her not to speak because if you look at her actual statement, she calls for example, for the destruction of the State of Israel. She says, for example, that the Zionism to which so many of her Jewish classmates, you know, believe in is an ideology of racism and other things that are just not true.

So, let's be clear. Like I think the university is doing the right thing in saying our speakers at our -- on our platform that we choose to elevate should represent all of our students. And this woman clearly does not represent all of USC.

BLITZER: But she's the valedictorian. And a valedictorian usually speaks --

GREENBLATT: There are other valedictorians too.

BLITZER: Usually speak at these commencement appearances.

GREENBLATT: But again, like if you violate the values of the institution, you have to face the consequences. She's entitled to her views. She's not entitled to a stage. Let her give her speech, standing on a soapbox on the corner of the street. That's where she can exercise her rights to free expression.

[12:00:01]

BLITZER: All right. Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL, thanks very much for joining us.

GREENBLATT: Thank you.

BLITZER: Obviously, a sensitive subject indeed. And to our viewers, thanks very much for joining me here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. I'll be back later tonight at 6:00 p.m. Eastern in "THE SITUATION ROOM." Stay with us, "INSIDE POLITICS" with Dana Bash starts right now.