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Tomorrow: Opening Statements In Trump's First Criminal Trial; Biden Urges Senate To Quickly Pass Foreign Aid Bill; Taylor Swift Gets Personal In New 31-Track Album, Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 21, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:59:58]

KEVIN BACON, ACTOR: I also think that it's amazing, the power that this movie has had to just kind of bring people together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Oh, so fun. The students also contributed 5,000 resource kits, too.

Bacon's foundation, which provides essentials to communities in need.

WHITFIELD: All right, hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

All right, we are less than 24 hours away now from witnessing history. Tomorrow, opening statements began in the trial of defendant, Donald Trump, the first former president ever to be on trial for criminal charges.

Trump will walk into a Manhattan courtroom tomorrow morning, where he will hear the state's case against him. He is facing dozens of charges related to an alleged hush money payment to adult film actress Stormy Daniels made before the 2016 election.

This is the first of four criminal cases against Trump to go to trial. Twelve jurors and six alternates will decide Trump's fate.

Here is CNN's Brian Todd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Already, two empaneled jurors have been excused from former President Trump's hush money trial, underscoring just how crucial the six alternate jurors are, who've just been seated.

RENATO STABILE, JURY CONSULTANT AND ATTORNEY: In a case of this length and in a high-profile case, the alternates are as significant as the regular jury panel because there's a very high likelihood and probability in this case that one or more of those alternates are going to end up on the jury.

TODD: The alternate juror is there to take over a spot on the 12- member regular jury if one of the regulars has to drop out of the trial.

STABILE: One of the reasons could be illness. They could have a family emergency or something else could happen like they can't follow the court's instruction not to post things on social media.

TODD: Court veterans say the life in limbo of an alternate juror can be strange, unsatisfying and tougher than it may seem.

LESLIE ELLIS, TRIAL CONSULTANT, THE CAISSA GROUP: It's difficult to be very present and to really focus as much as jurors might need to, with the idea in the back of their mind that they might not really need to deliberate at the end of it all.

But as one alternate juror in Police Officer Derek Chauvin's murder trial said, being an alternate doesn't mean the case weighs on you any less heavily.

LISA CHRISTENSEN, ALTERNATE JUROR IN DEREK CHAUVIN TRIAL: Every night when I would come home, I felt exhausted. It was pretty draining, pretty emotional.

TODD: And that juror didn't even know she was an alternate until the end of the trial. In some cases, the judges purposely don't inform the jury of them are alternates and which are regulars until they start deliberating.

ELLIS: So they don't have that issue of knowing, I might not have to deliberate. Do I really to listen to this?

TODD: There are six alternate jurors for Trump's trial. While that may seem like a lot for a complex and highly charged case, it may not be enough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. He appears to have pulled the gloves off, yes.

TODD: During a O.J. Simpson's lengthy murder trial, 10 regular jurors were dismissed for failing to disclose something, allegedly passing a note or considering a book deal or simply telling the judge, "I can't take it anymore." Ten alternate took their place.

What happens if the Trump trial runs out of alternates?

STABILE: It would be up to the defendant whether or not he would want to consent to a verdict with 11 jurors but I don't believe that he would do that in this case. And you would have a mistrial.

TODD: The alternates are always in court during the actual trial but don't join the final deliberations unless they're needed. What happens if a regular juror has to leave the case during deliberations?

ELLIS: What happens then is the real jury has to basically start over their deliberations. They have to deliberate as though they hadn't done the deliberations they'd done with the first with the original juror and start over with the alternate juror.

TODD: What's the best advice for an alternate juror?

Trial consultant Leslie Ellis says try to forget you're an alternate, participate in everything you can with the other jurors. Pay attention to every bit of the evidence, pretend that you're one of the first 12 because you may very well be at the end -- Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, let's discuss all of this further with retired California Superior Court Judge LaDoris Cordell.

She is also the author of "Her Honor: My Life on the Bench. What Works, What's Broken, and How to Change It."

Judge Cordell, welcome back.

LADORIS CORDELL, CALIFORNIA SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE: Thank you so much for having me.

WHITFIELD: So tomorrow is a major step in this historic trial of Donald Trump. What needs to be established in tomorrow's opening statements?

CORDELL: Well I am glad you called it a statement because some people erroneously call it an opening argument. It is not an argument.

The opening statement is the first time that the jury gets to hear from the lawyers aside from jury selection. So the opening statement is a roadmap for the jury, and an effective opening statement tells a story. Why? Because everybody loves a story.

So the prosecution will go first, followed by the defendant, Trump's lawyer. They don't have to give their opening statement right after that. They can wait until the entire prosecution case is done. It rarely happens that way, but it could.

[15:05:06]

So what's critical in the opening statement is that the lawyer who is giving the statement to the jury has to read the room. I mean, the goal to persuade -- to persuade the jurors.

So if the jurors' eyes start to glaze over, if they are yawning and fidgeting, the lawyer is losing them. So my advice to these lawyers, they are seasoned, they really don't need my advice, but it is make your points. Don't be redundant and then sit down and also do not promise evidence that you are not going to produce during the trial.

If you do that, the other side is going to have a field day saying they said they are going to do all this and they haven't done it, and they will do that in the closing arguments.

So there is a fine line, Fredricka between a statement, an opening statement and an argument and frequently, lawyers cross that line. They do it very carefully. They start to argue the case instead of basically saying this is what we are going to show with these witnesses.

Occasionally, there are objections that happen during opening statements, but it is very unusual. Most lawyers don't do it. In this case, I think there are going to be a lot of objections from Trump's lawyers as these statement lets are being made.

And by the way, it isn't just statements. They have every right if they want to use audio visual effects, they can have a monitor in showing photos of witnesses they are going to have testify. They can have quotations from depositions, all of this again, has to tell a story, to get the jurors, to keep them very interested and get the jurors to like them.

So finally, I seriously doubt that Donald Trump will be able to contain himself during the prosecutor's opening statement. He has to sit there quietly, not show any emotion when the prosecutor starts talking about what they intend to prove and all of these allegations against him, which do not make him look good, in which he has consistently denied.

So if he fails to contain himself during the opening statements, if he starts saying something or are conducted some self in a matter that is absolutely inappropriate or disruptive, then you know what? He will be facing a contempt charge in addition to the 10 contempt violations, he is going to face on Tuesday.

WHITFIELD: Oh, well, let's talk about that Tuesday potentially. You know, and you mentioned his attorneys could object to some of the things that the prosecutors say in the openings statement. So that too could be at the urging of a very frustrated Donald Trump that could produce some fireworks, but as it pertains to Tuesday, and the judge, Juan Merchan considering the prosecutors multiple claims of Trump violating a gag order, should Merchan have had a hearing on this sooner than Tuesday? Will this be an interruption of flow of information to the jurors?

You're talking about reading the room after hearing opening statements tomorrow and then Tuesday, there is going to be this hearing on these potential contempt charges. How does that go?

CORDELL: Right. And that is a very good point you've made.

The contempt hearing will not be in the presence of the jury and this is based upon 10 violations that are alleged by the prosecutor and this is criminal contempt, not civil contempt. Civil contempt basically is, you have not complied with an order because you just haven't done something.

And I usually comes up in divorce cases where one spouse hides the assets of another and the judge says produce the money and the person says, no. The judge locks up the person until the person says this is where I put the money. So basically in civil contempt, the person has the key -- holds the key to the jail cell. All they have to do is give up the information. Criminal is different. The act has been done. So the allegation here in criminal is that he has violated the gag order 10 times by posting on social media and posting on his website.

So this is out of the hearing of the jury. It is a criminal proceeding. The prosecutor has to prove each violation beyond a reasonable doubt, and actually, if the defendant also has a right, Trump has a right to assert the Fifth Amendment against incrimination and not say anything at all.

WHITFIELD: Oh my God.

CORDELL: And then if the case is proven, then the judge then imposes punishment.

WHITFIELD: Okay and you know, last we spoke, you said, Judge Merchan you know, needs to tell the former president possibly to bring a toothbrush next time he violates the gag order. On the other hand, does the judge have to be particularly careful not to take any bait, so to speak, or give the defense room for a potential appeal later?

CORDELL: Yes. The toothbrush punishment is still out there, but the law basically is to impose a fine and here, they are asking for a thousand dollars per violation and that's what the law says.

[15:10:08]

And then the judge also has the option of imprisonment. So at this point this is violations that are what are called indirect contempt, meaning it occurred outside the view of the judge, that's why the case will then have to be proven. And if the judge finds that happens then the judge has the options of first imposing a fine and a fine is not going to do much for Donald Trump to deter --

So you want with a punishment deter the conduct, you want to punish, but also deter the conduct. A fine is not going to deter him because he will just go to his MAGA base and raise the money to pay a fine, but it is the first step.

And then this judge is not -- he is not someone who is just going to have that Donald Trump take control the courtroom. That's not going to happen, so that is the next step up, and the next step is and it is right in the New York Code is imprisonment. He can be sentenced to jail time, and is that entirely possible? Of course, it is.

So if there is this indirect contempt outside of the view of the judge, and then there is direct contempt if he acts out in the courtroom. The judge is not going to have any option left but to have a jail cell, tell him to bring the toothbrush and maybe that will get through to Mr. Trump.

WHITFIELD: Wow, fascinating. I cannot wait to hear your point of view after what could be a very fascinating week, even though cameras are not in the courtroom, we've got reporters who will be in the courtroom, who will be able to give us detail of the goings on.

All right, Judge LaDoris Cordell, thank you so much.

CORDELL: You're welcome.

WHITFIELD: And of course, you can watch CNN for special live coverage of the Trump hush money trial tomorrow, 9:00 AM Eastern on CNN and streaming on Max.

Amid ongoing protests on campus today, an orthodox rabbi associated with New York's Columbia University is warning Jewish students the campus is not safe and they should "return home until it is." Tensions remain high at Columbia after several days of pro-Palestinian protests and arrests.

The unrest follows an appearance by the University's president on Capitol Hill last week.

CNN's Polo Sandoval is joining us right now.

Polo, what's the situation on campus?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Fred, yesterday, we had opportunity to actually step on campus, which since last week's incident when the NYPD had to be called in at the request of the president of Columbia University, had to detain well over a hundred students.

We have seen an encampment on campus there on the south lawn continue. If anything, it has actually grown. Now, I had an opportunity to speak to a student on campus yesterday that has been observing the situation every single day and says it has been peaceful and the university hasn't had any sort of need to interject.

So the question is, how long will that in encampment be allowed to remain in place? But now in a separate vein in a conversation that CNN's Jake Tapper had an opportunity to have with a rabbi associated with Columbia's Orthodox Union Jewish Learning Initiative, that rabbi is sending a message from a personal account to about 300 mainly Orthodox students on campus warning that it is likely a good idea for them to return home.

In the conversation the rabbi had with our colleague, Jake Tapper. I want to read you a portion of what he -- of what this rabbi said and the reason why he issued this warning to some of the students on campus. The rabbi writing: "In a response to the scene on campus last night to just horrific videos of protesters on campus calling for Jews to be killed, just off campus, Jews being yelled at to go back to Poland, text messages I am getting," he writes, constantly from Jewish students about how unsafe they feel, the rabbi wrote, "I thought it is important to state the severity of the situation."

Now, adding to the rabbi's message, we've actually also heard from other Jewish organizations on campus that feel that the university is simply is not doing enough to make sure that Jewish students feel comfortable and safe on campus. Now, if this sounds familiar at all, this is because this is part of the larger conversation that we've already had for person several months where you have people on all sides of the ongoing debate and then protests, feeling that the university is not doing enough because what we heard from Palestinians supporting crowds just off-campus here they continue to call for the campus to basically defund, divest some of those companies directly get linked to Israel.

So really, it is all sides what we've been hearing today, but the reality is for the university, not just here, but throughout the country, they are now grappling with how to deal with intensifying demonstrations, not just on-campus, but as you see behind me, off campus as well -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

All right, President Biden is urging the Senate to pass a critical foreign aid bill quickly as Ukrainian President Zelenskyy warns his troops need weapons now. How this aid will help on the ground next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:19:42]

WHITFIELD: President Biden is urging the US Senate to quickly pass a massive $95 billion foreign aid package that cleared the House of Representatives after months of wrangling. The US Senate will have to come back from recess this week to vote on the package before sending it to the president for signature.

[15:20:06]

It would give Ukraine $61 billion, much of it desperately needed for military aid. Israel gets $26 billion. A lot of that is for its missile defense systems and $8 billion goes to allies in Asia particularly, Taiwan.

Priscilla Alvarez joining us now from Washington with more on this. Priscilla, what happens now with a vote in the Senate?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, the Senate is expected to vote on Tuesday afternoon, or at least begin voting, that according to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and it is expected to pass. Once it does, it will go to the president for his signature and in a statement on Saturday, the president is saying that he urges the Senate to do it quickly, to send it to his desk, to sign it into law so that "... we can quickly send weapons and equipment to Ukraine to meet their urgent battlefield needs."

Of course, the White House has been asking for these funds for months now, often framing this as in the interest of the United States as a national security priority. And over the last several months, making the point that these funds were urgent and necessary for Ukraine especially in the last few weeks when we did see battlefield losses in Ukraine. The White House putting that squarely at the feet of Republicans in Congress saying that these funds needed to pass. We saw that happen yesterday and the White House applauding that effort, and I am told by a White House official that on Saturday afternoon, President Biden jumped on the phone with Speaker Johnson and House Minority Leader Jeffries separately to thank them for getting this supplemental pass to the finish line.

And of course, Fred, US officials have consistently made the point that the stakes were high here and they have been waiting for this moment and Defense Secretary Austin, in a statement on Saturday saying that this package could surge lifesaving security assistance to Ukraine, support Israel and increase the flow of humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Of course, there is still process that needs to play out here, but there is a high hope that they can get these funds and get them out quickly.

WHITFIELD: All right, Priscilla Alvarez in Washington, thanks so much.

For Ukraine, this aid package includes $23 billion to replenish US weaponry and almost $14 billion for advanced weapons systems, while Israel will see more than $5 billion for missile defense, including its Iron Dome System.

Let's bring in now Fred Pleitgen in Kyiv, Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem.

Fred, to you first, Ukraine says it needs weapons now, do we have a sense of how quickly the US would be able to get arms into the hands of soldiers there after the US Senate vote and the president's signature?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the feeling here in Kyiv is that all of that could happen very quickly. Obviously, everybody here in the Ukrainian capital and really across the frontlines and across this country is looking forward to Tuesday, hoping that things will move very quickly, then a lot of the things the Ukrainians believe that they need are already staged with the US military in places in Europe.

And so therefore, once a decision is made, they believe that that gear could be brought here to Ukraine very quickly, and then obviously disseminated to the battlefield very quickly as well.

There are two main things that the Ukrainians are talking about, and certainly, Priscilla touched on that a little bit. They say that air defense systems are extremely important right now, not just for the frontline, while they are very important there to combat the Russian Air Force, but also to cities like the one that I am in right now, the Russians have drastically increased their aerial attacks on Ukrainian cities and especially on Ukrainian energy infrastructure over the past couple of weeks, really hurting the Ukrainians.

And one of the things president of this country said Volodymyr Zelenskyy is he said, look, in some cases, the Ukrainians were not able to fight off Russian missiles because they simply did not have the interceptor missiles to do that because they haven't gotten any new ones from the United States.

So in every respect, the Ukrainians are saying all that needs to happen quickly, I was able today here in Kyiv to speak with Volodymyr Klitschko, of course, the former world heavyweight boxing champion, the brother of the mayor of Kyiv and someone who is actually very much involved in the defense of this country.

Here is what he had to say about why this aid package is so important. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR KLITSCHKO, FORMER WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION: It has a great potential to change the frontline, so we can, in Ukraine defend us better.

It sends also very important signal to Putin's Russia that you're not going to win this war, this senseless war that has been started over two-and-a-half years ago, almost 2.5 years ago. it sends a message of motivation for us, Ukrainians, that we are not alone.

It did send also for Republicans and Democrats in the US in this critical moments to stand together and make this decision together to protect democracy in this world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: Fredricka, just to show how important this aid is to the Ukrainians, they are acknowledging and the Russians are saying that they took a village from the Ukrainians in the east of the country that is very important for the defense of some of those areas on the eastern front, and they say one of the reasons why that happened is because they are running so drastically short on artillery and ammunition -- Fredricka.

[15:25:10]

WHITFIELD: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Kyiv, thanks so much.

Let's go to Jeremy Diamond now in Tel Aviv.

So Jeremy, like Ukraine, Israel now has billions more in military support, but it is still fighting a war in Gaza. The War Cabinet is meeting today. What are they focusing on?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are a few pressing issues for the War Cabinet to discuss tonight, and one of them, according to an Israeli official is the hostage situation in Gaza. Before this War Cabinet meeting began tonight, we heard from the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in a video statement on the eve of Passover referring to the plight of the hostages, Passover is of course, a holiday rife with symbolism of freedom in particular.

And so a lot of Israelis across the country right now are marking this Passover with an empty a chair at their Passover seders noting the fact that 133 hostages, some of whom we know are dead, still remain held hostage captive in the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli Prime Minister vowing that Israel will soon land "additional and painful blows and increase military and political pressure on Hamas" in order to secure the release of the hostages.

And that appears to be the second part of this Cabinet meeting, and that is to review military plans for the next phase of Israel's military operations inside of the Gaza Strip. We know that today, the Israeli military's chief-of-staff, General Herzi Halevi approved plans for the continuation of the war in Gaza. They are not explicitly referring to a ground offensive in Rafah, but it seems very clear that that is what these military leaders, as well as the political leadership are talking about.

We understand that the War Cabinet was set to review plans this evening for the continuation of the war. Therefore, likely talking about the future of this ground offensive in Rafah, which of course we know last week they were supposed to start evacuating that southernmost city of Gaza where more than a million Palestinians are currently living. That was delayed as Israel prepared its response to Iran's military attack on Israel last weekend.

But with that out of the way now, it does appear that Rafah will come next. The question now is exactly when that will start -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Jeremy Diamond and Fred Pleitgen, thanks to both of you.

All right, after yesterday's votes in the US House of Representatives, Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene is now calling on GOP Speaker Mike Johnson to resign. And today, she is threatening to introduce a motion to vacate his speakership if he doesn't step down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): ... has betrayed America. He has betrayed Republican voters. Under his leadership, he has passed the Democrat agenda, passed the Biden administration's policies and fully funded them.

We are going to fight in Congress to do everything we can to stop this type of uniparty leadership. Mike Johnson's speakership is over. He needs to do the right thing to resign and allow us to move forward in a controlled process. If he doesn't do so, he will be vacated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The Georgia hardliner is one of at least three Republicans who have said they will support a move to oust Johnson, whose majority is so slim, he can't afford to lose any Republicans on a party-line vote. Should Greene and her supporters make good on their threat to force a vote on ousting him as speaker, Johnson will almost certainly need to rely on Democrats to bail him out. Still to come, tomorrow, opening statements are set to begin in Donald Trump's hush money trial, but years ago, another well-known politician had a similar story playing out. How Trump's case compares with failed Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:33:15]

WHITFIELD: Donald Trump returns to court in the unprecedented criminal trial of a former president, but it will not be the first time a person running for president has faced legal jeopardy over an alleged affair.

CNN's Jessica Dean has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Donald Trump claims the prosecution against him in the hush money trial is unprecedented.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is an assault on America. Nothing like this has ever happened before. There has never been anything like it.

DEAN: While it is true, Trump is the first former president to stand trial against criminal charges, another well-known politician had a similar story play out in the past.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): John Edwards obviously was prosecuted for the same thing, and Justice Department failed, acquitted on one, a mistrial on the others, but they decided not to proceed.

DEAN: In 2011, then failed Democratic presidential candidate, John Edwards faced a six-count indictment four allegedly accepting and using campaign contributions to cover up an extramarital affair and hide his mistress and their child from the public while Edwards ran for president.

JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While I do not believe I did anything illegal or ever thought I was doing anything illegal, I did an awful, awful lot that was wrong.

DEAN: The jury acquitted Edwards on one charge and split on the other five in, leading the Justice Department to ultimately drop the case.

TRUMP: Well, it is election interference and it has got to stop. It is a third world country.

DEAN: Trump is charged with 34 counts of falsifying business records to conceal payments made to hide an alleged affair with an adult film star and influence the 2016 election.

Trump denies the affair and has pleaded not guilty, but Trump's former attorney, Michael Cohen, swore under oath that he made the payments in order to affect the outcome of the election. Cohen though, was convicted of perjury in a separate case.

[15:35:09]

The Edwards case had its own star witness, a close aide to the former senator who testified to helping Edwards keep that affair secret, but prosecutors did not prove their claim the cover-up was about the election. The woman with whom Edwards had the affair, Rielle Hunter told CNN that Edwards did not want the truth to hurt his wife.

RIELLE HUNTER, HAD AFFAIR WITH JOHN EDWARDS: The issues were, you know, internal family issues.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Trying to hide it from Elizabeth and the kids.

HUNTER: Yes, trying to hide it, trying not to hurt anybody. You know, he didn't want to hurt Elizabeth or his family.

HUNTER: A key difference could be the timing of the alleged affairs and subsequent payoffs, which might help spell out the payment's intent.

Edwards' affair occurred during the 2008 campaign with at least one payment happening after the election was over, long after Edwards dropped out of the race.

In Trump's case, the alleged affair happened in 2006 years before he ran for president, but the payoff is alleged to have been made just two weeks before the 2016 election.

TRUMP: This is political persecution.

EDWARDS: And this is about me --

DEAN: But perhaps the starkest difference is how each man reacted to their cases.

EDWARDS: There is no one else responsible for my sins. None of the people who came to court and testified are responsible. Nobody working for the government his responsible, I am responsible.

TRUMP: This is really an attack or a political opponent, that's all it is.

DEAN: Jessica Dean, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Coming up, the Swifties have spoken. Her new album, The Tortured Poets Department is already breaking records. Is this a new era for Taylor Swift?

What the fans are saying straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:41:31]

(VIDEO CLIP FROM "FORTNIGHT.")

WHITFIELD: All right, that was the video for "Fortnight" featuring Post Malone. I know it is kind of strange getting used to him without the tattoos on his face, and it is the first single from a Taylor Swift's new double album. The 31-track double album dropped Friday and fans have weighed in all weekend long calling The Tortured Poets Department the beginning of another Taylor era.

According to Billboard, the album generated 243.4 million streams on its first day, doubling the number of streams from Taylor's last released, "1989: Taylor's Version."

I'd like to bring in now cultural commentator and author of the upcoming novel, "Okay, Computer," CJ Farley.

We will have to have you back to talk about that. That's an interesting title.

All right, CJ, good to see you.

CJ FARLEY, AUTHOR, "OKAY, COMPUTER": Good to see you, too. So glad to talk about the album.

WHITFIELD: I know. I wonder how many times have you even been listening to it?

FARLEY: More time than I can count, but you know, when it is a really good album, it is actually a joy to listen to repeatedly because you see new things each time. That is one reason why Taylor Swift has so many fans because she puts secret messages in there. People know that certain songs like the fifth song on an album will speak to them in a certain kind of way.

And because she has almost novelistic depth in her work, I mean, that's why people care about her so much and they talk about her so much, and why I am here talking about it all over again.

WHITFIELD: Oh, so well sad. I mean, I think all weekend long people have been listening to it over and over again. I have been actually listening to her fans as well the comments and the music on Taylor's Sirius XM channel.

And I am hearing descriptors like its deeply personal. She allows herself to be more vulnerable than ever before and that its sad and empowering. I am really quoting all of the listeners I've been hearing while listening to her music.

I mean, you kind of put it very succinctly how she really is a storyteller. I mean, it is like little mini novels all the way through. What is it about her technique in bringing these songs, these stories together and sharing it with the public? Does that kind of justify why it has been streamed somewhere like 240 million times over and over again in just this weekend alone. FARLEY: Well, maybe instead of The Tortured Poets Department, they should have called it The Billionaire Poets Department because of how many units she has moved. I mean, this is going to end up being her 14th number one album. That's a record that no one else has achieved other than Jay-Z when that happens.

But you know, she told me once what her songwriting technique is and what she does is she doesn't write about the road. She doesn't write about hotels, a thing that a lot of other superstar musicians fall into. She writes about her feelings, how people make her feel, and how she wishes people would feel about her.

Those kinds of things are timeless. Those are the kinds of things that everyone can identify with. So even though she gets bigger and bigger and even more of a superstar, you can still identify with her very human feelings, feelings she captures in each song because we all have emotions and Taylor has them too, no matter how rich and famous she gets.

[15:45:05]

WHITFIELD: Yes, and you said, you've been hearing as you listen to some of this music over and over again, you hear new things and I have heard it from her fans who say, you know, they all know about this breakup, a relationship over a six-year relationship, and that in so many of the songs on this album, she is talking about that and she is talking about other experiences, maybe tit-for-tats that she has had with other celebrities.

I mean, how do you think she approached the writing and the producing process for this album?

FARLEY: Here is one thing to be careful about Taylor Swift, as though people think they know her, but we don't really know her and the way that artists go about writing these kinds of so-called confessional type albums is they change things and so the characters she is writing about may reflect certain things of life, but they may not really be real.

I mean, Marvin Gaye did the same kind of thing when he wrote the album "Here, My Dear," which he wrote to help settle a divorce case against his ex-wife back in 1978 and the songs were maybe about the marriage and the dissolution of the marriage, but they are also about other things that were universal.

I mean, you think a Sylvia Plath who wrote "The Bell Jar" and of course, it tells about her experiences working for "Mademoiselle," but they weren't really because she made up a lot of the characters and changed a lot of the facts, and so the universal story, maybe it is about here, maybe it is about something more.

The same thing its true of Taylor Swift's songs when a song with the alchemy, with all the references to winning and things that seem to be about football, maybe is about Travis Kelce, but maybe it is about something larger and more universal. So people shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that each song is about some specific person. They should realize that Taylor Swift has larger issues on her mind. She has changed things and this is really about everything that we, as people go through and not just about specific things about Taylor Swift, you may have seen on Twitter or X, or someplace else.

WHITFIELD: Do you think -- I mean, this album kind of exhibits a type of maturity in her as a woman, not just as say, you know, songstress, a writer, a producer, but kind of overall the tapestry of who she has become.

FARLEY: I think what's interesting is pretty years, for decades, male rockers have been writing about women and they don't understand women, I mean, they talk about the way women look, but they don't really understand what is going on in their heads.

I mean, I am sure you know that, we listen to a lot of rock songs, you're like, that person doesn't really get me. They only have sort of seeing the outside.

Taylor Swift gets guys. I think that's what is so terrifying for some men who listen to her because not only does she have the talent to write about the human experience, she has specificity in terms of the men she has talked to and knows and writes about them in unflagging unmerciful detail, I think that's what is so scary, and interesting and fascinating of what she does.

And also, her vocabulary keeps expanding. I mean, you look on this album, she uses words like saboteurs and aesthetic and dopamine and xenophile, an impressionist, an empath -- words you don't necessarily hear on Top 40 songs. Taylor Swift's vocabulary is broad and deep and all gets into her music.

WHITFIELD: I concur on that. They were words I was like, you don't usually hear some of this word choice in other songs, but yes, its, it is pretty amazing to hear and I will keep listening because I haven't heard it all.

CJ Farley, good to see you. Thank you so much.

FARLEY: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And we will be right back.

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[15:53:12]

WHITFIELD: All right, a new study says climate change won't just make the planet warmer, it will also make people poorer. The research published in the scientific journal, "Nature" says the world's income will shrink by 19 percent over just the next 26 years due to the impact of record-breaking heat waves, severe floods and wildfires.

Researchers say the financial pain in the short term will be unavoidable, but they also say immediate actions to reduce climate change could stem some losses in the long run.

Joining me right now is Benji Backer, the executive chairman and founder of the American Conservation Coalition. He is also the author of a new book called, "The Conservative Environmentalist: Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future."

Benji, great to see you.

BENJI BACKER, EXECUTIVE CHAIRMAN AND FOUNDER, AMERICAN CONSERVATION COALITION: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: Wonderful. Okay, so this is depressing, but help break down for me, you know, how it is that climate change over a long period of time is going to mean I, as an individual, am going to spend more money. I am more likely to be a bit more poor in a very short term. How and why does that happen?

BACKER: Unfortunately, this is not the first report that says this. I mean, you look at -- it is already making that sort of impact on Americans and people around the world.

You look at the insurance prices and the cost to rebuild homes in places like Florida, the effects of climate change are affecting us already in a very economically harmful way. But I think one of the things that I think about when a report like this is brought to my attention is that the reality that it will cause somebody more money in a year or ten years, or a hundred years doesn't really matter to them if they are living paycheck to paycheck now, and that is why in my book and through the work, as I have traveled across hundreds of communities, I have seen that the only solutions environmentally that will actually work for people and get the political buy-in that we need from both sides are the solutions that actually lower the cost of doing life as a human being.

[15:55:10]

Because that's the only thing that people can implement. They're not going to pay more. They are not going to do more because they are worried about losing money later because of climate change. They are worried what about the here and now and our politicians and our businesses have an obligation to pursue solutions that help people now instead of forcing them to do something different because of something that might happen in the future.

WHITFIELD: So what might some of those solutions for the here and now be?

BACKER: Well, I think one of the key things is doing more American energy, of all energy sources. I mean, it is cheaper and more environmentally friendly for us to do energy in the United States, energy production, so that means, more natural gas in the short term, that means more wind, more solar, more nuclear, more hydropower and more of everything because not only with that draw that carbon emissions as we have already started to do in this country, which is really important to keep doing, but it also allows people to spend less in their utility bills. People cannot afford to pay more for the energy bill like in California, energy prices have skyrocketed. In New York, energy prices have skyrocketed and it is one of the main reasons that people are leaving as those increased costs of life.

And so, I think having closer to home energy is a really big, big part of it. I also think the resiliency measures of restoring ecosystems along our coastlines of the effects of hurricanes and sea level rise are less damaging and that also draws down carbon emissions. Those are some really common sense ones.

Another one is forest management, preventing some of the worsening forest fires that have caused our country so much money just by clearing out some dead brush and not allowing them to have open flames in such a massive way.

Those are just a few ideas that aren't -- you know, they are not going to draw down carbon emissions significantly, but they are also not going to equip -- or they are not going to force people to pay more to live their lives and it will make a positive impact.

WHITFIELD: All right, here and now. Benji Backer, thank you so much.

BACKER: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.

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[16:05:00]