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Trump Team Grills Michael Cohen; President Biden and Donald Trump to Hold CNN Debate on June 27. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired May 15, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:01]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

And we begin with a major development in the 2024 presidential race here in the United States. President Joe Biden and Donald Trump have just accepted CNN's invitation to host a -- to hold a debate on June 27. That's just in a few weeks. That's months earlier than traditional face-offs take place between -- between two presidential candidates.

The announcement comes after a heated back-and-forth earlier this morning between the two. The president challenged Trump to two debates and then trolled him over his hush money trial. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump lost two debates to me in 2020. And since then, he hasn't shown up for debate. Now he's acting like he wants to debate me again.

Well, make my day, pal. I will even do it twice. So let's pick the dates, Donald. I hear you're free on Wednesdays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The former president responded quickly, calling on Biden to -- quote -- "get ready to rumble."

Let's bring in our White House correspondent, Arlette Saenz, and CNN's Kristen Holmes. She's here with me in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Arlette, to you first. President Biden wants to debate Trump, clearly, but only under certain terms that he's laid out. What can you tell us about that?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the Biden campaign this morning announced that they had sent a letter to the Commission on Presidential Debates informing them that they would not participate in those traditional debates that had been set to begin in mid- September.

Instead, the Biden campaign put forth some of the terms that they would like to see for debates going forward, identifying these dates in late June, as well as early September, for opportunities for the two men to face off one-on-one for the very first time.

Now, the Biden campaign has called for these debates to be one-on-one, which essentially is excluding any potential third-party candidates, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr. They also wanted to see these debates organized directly between the Biden -- the campaigns and the broadcast networks.

That is something that we have seen now play out, as both Biden and Trump have announced that they are accepting a debate with CNN on June 27. That debate is set to take place at CNN's Atlanta studios and will take place with just the two candidates, the moderator -- or potential moderators, I should say, and no audience will be involved.

Now, in their letter to the Commission on Presidential Debates, the Biden campaign outlined how they were concerned that -- about getting candidates in front of voters much earlier in the process. Those camp -- debates were not set to take place until beginning, I believe on September 16.

So this will give the two men an opportunity to lay out their viewpoints on various issues far -- much earlier in the presidential contest that is typical. And, also, the campaign noted in their letter that some of these debates had turned into entertainment spectacles, with outburst or involvement from audience members.

So they're trying to eliminate some of that. Another thing the Biden campaign has called for is for the microphones to only be on when that candidate is actively speaking, potentially eliminating some of that intense back-and-forth that we saw between Biden and Trump back in 2020.

But it's clear at this point that the debates -- date seems to be set with that debate, first debate between the two men for this election cycle taking place in just six weeks.

BLITZER: Very important political news, indeed.

Arlette, stand by.

Kristen, you're here with me. Give us some more on the Trump campaign's...

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well...

BLITZER: ... reaction to this challenge from President Biden.

HOLMES: Well, almost everything on that list was stuff that they also wanted.

And this is because the results -- this actual public announcement was a result of back-and-forth conversations informally about debates that really focused on a mutual disdain for the Commission on Presidential Debates and how to set up a possible scenario that didn't include the commission. So they were expecting something like this. Now, the only thing that

Trump's team and Trump himself doesn't agree with is that he wants more presidential debates. He's going to be calling for roughly four presidential debates. He doesn't think two is enough. But, if you will remember, Trump's campaign had already reached out to the Commission on Presidential Debates, asking for earlier debates.

[11:05:03]

So that checks that box for them. They had also told me that they did not want a third-party candidate up on stage. They said that Donald Trump would debate if there was a third-party candidate up there, but that was not something that they were seeking out.

So, almost all of the conditions that Biden line up with the former president. And I will tell you, we have reported this now for months. Donald Trump's team believes that a debate will only help Donald Trump. So they are looking forward to it, and they believe that he will be prepped and ready to go.

BLITZER: We shall see.

All right, very -- thank you very much, Kristen, for that. And, Arlette, thanks to you as well.

Joining us now, Quentin Fulks. He's the principal deputy campaign manager for President Biden.

Quentin, thanks very much for joining us.

So it's now official. Trump and Biden have now both accepted this CNN debate on June 27 in Atlanta, in our Atlanta studio, without a live audience. Is President Biden prepared to take Trump on?

QUENTIN FULKS, BIDEN PRINCIPAL DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: President Biden is ready. As he said this morning, he's ready for not just one debate, but two debates.

We laid out our criteria for those debates. Trump has accepted the first. He said any time, any place, anywhere. And the only thing left now is to see if he's going to show up. He has not shown up since the debate in 2020 with President Biden. And so we will see if he keeps his word and meets us in Atlanta in June.

BLITZER: We will see what happens on June 27.

The former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, by the way, Quentin just told our Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill -- and I'm quoting her now -- "I would never recommend going on stage with Donald Trump" -- close quote.

Is this a risky move for the president? Why has he decided he wants to do this?

FULKS: Look, our campaign has been saying for months that democracy is literally at stake and is what's on the ballot in this election. The American people deserve to hear from one of the two or two of the

individuals who have a chance of being elected president of the United States, that are going to represent them on the world stage, that are going to be in charge of the economy that affects their life every day.

President Biden deeply believes this. We have nothing to hide. President Biden is incredibly proud of his record. We know what a second Donald Trump term will do to middle-class families across the country. We know where Donald Trump stands on important issues, like reproductive freedom for women.

And we think it's important that voters see that at all. And so, from our perspective, we're completely ready and excited to engage Donald Trump and make sure that Americans see the stark difference and contrast between what he represents and the vision that President Biden and Vice President Harris have for America.

BLITZER: Quentin, what else can you tell us about President Biden's strategy going to be -- his strategy, what do you think it will be in taking Trump on in this first debate, June 27 in Atlanta, hosted by CNN, given the stakes you just laid out?

FULKS: President Biden is going to do what President Biden does. He's going to lead.

I mean, and he's going to show Americans what leadership looks like. And he will do that in a -- partly because Donald Trump will be on the stage. And when his mic is unmuted and he's able to talk and represent his values, American voters will see just how extreme he is.

So we're going to stand firm and continue to do what we have been doing this entire time, which is making sure that we tell Americans what our vision for them is. And when Donald Trump speaks, and he lies, President Biden is going to be prepared to call that out and correct the record and also talk about the actual facts of what Donald Trump did when he was president of the United States and what Donald Trump is pledging to do if he gets anywhere close to the Oval Office again.

BLITZER: As you know, former President Trump wants, he says, four debates before the election. Is President Biden willing to debate Trump more than two times?

FULKS: Look, President Biden didn't mince his words in the video. You played a clip of it earlier. He said two debates, one in June, one in September, before voters begin casting their votes, no spectacle, respect for the rules.

And Donald Trump said any time, any place, anywhere. And I think it's pretty clear. Right now, the time is going to be in June, 27th. The place, as of right now, for the first is going to be in Atlanta, Georgia, and in a studio.

So, as far as we're concerned, Donald Trump laid out his criteria. We countered with ours. And, hopefully, we're set for the first debate on June 27. Then we will see if Donald Trump shows up.

BLITZER: Trump says he'd accept any moderator for this upcoming debate. Does President Biden have someone in mind?

FULKS: Look, our -- we were very specific in the letter from our campaign chair this morning, a reputable moderator from one of the major networks that meet the criteria from what we laid out.

So, whoever that person is selected to be, our campaign will be just fine with it.

BLITZER: So, is the president officially going to start preparing now for this debate? And what will that process look like, if you can give us a little sense?

FULKS: The president's always prepared and ready to debate. This will just be in front of the American people.

He's got a grasp on every single issue that's affecting this country, as well as the free world. And he is on top of it, and he's ready. And so the president is going to continue to do what he does. We're going to make sure that he's ready. And we're excited about June 27. And we will see if Donald Trump is going to show up.

[11:10:04]

BLITZER: And we're just getting this in, Quentin.

Robert Kennedy Jr. just responded on Twitter, saying this -- and let me put it up on the screen. I will quote: "They are trying to exclude me from their debate because they are afraid I would win. Keeping viable candidates off the debate stage undermines democracy."

Quentin, what's your reaction to Kennedy?

FULKS: I think he should take a look at the word viable, because, at the end of the day, I believe that there's only two candidates that have an opportunity to get to 270 electoral votes and be elected president of the United States, and that's Joe Biden and, on the other hand, that's Donald Trump.

And, again, with the stakes of democracy at hand here and what we're talking about and these issues and the seriousness of them, we have to stop wasting time in front of the American people with individuals who have no chance. The American people deserve to hear directly uninterrupted from the two individuals that have an opportunity to be elected president of the United States, and RFK is not one of them.

BLITZER: And June 27 in Atlanta at the CNN studio, that's where it will take place.

Quentin Fulks, the principal deputy campaign manager for the Biden campaign, thanks very much for joining us.

FULKS: Thank you, Wolf. BLITZER: And still ahead this hour: a brazen and deadly ambush in

France. Gunmen crash into a prison transport van, killing two guards and freeing an inmate. There's an urgent manhunt under way right now.

And troubling details about foreign efforts to try to undermine U.S. elections, how Iran and China use what are called deepfakes to try and trick voters -- CNN's exclusive reporting coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:16:28]

BLITZER: In New York, Donald Trump's former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen took the stand yesterday for a rather contentious cross- examination from the defense in the former president's criminal hush money trial.

Trump's lawyers grilled Cohen for nearly two hours over his relationship with Trump and his decision to turn on Trump back in 2018. They highlighted insults Cohen leveled against Trump, as they tried to paint him as a man with a vendetta against his former boss.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is joining us right now.

Brynn, so what's been the reaction to Cohen's testimony, at least so far?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's a lot more to go, Wolf.

Essentially, the defense attorneys say they're going to go into tomorrow when court picks back up for most of the day with their cross-examination. I'm glad you highlighted some of those insults, because that's what defense attorneys started with, Todd Blanche basically using Michael Cohen's own words from his books, from his podcasts to basically say that he has vengeance against the former president.

He called him a boorish cartoon misogynist, a Cheeto-dusted cartoon villain, to which Michael Cohen essentially said, yes, that sounds like something I would say.

They basically have said that Michael Cohen has profited off of Donald Trump, getting him to admit on the stand that he has used Trump's name in every single podcast that he's aired. And, basically, that is their tactic so far. They haven't gotten yet to the crux of the charges.

However, before the defense attorneys had their turn, the prosecution did wrap up its case pretty much in a nice little bow, getting to that Oval Office discussion where, essentially, Michael Cohen told for jurors how Donald Trump knew about these hush money payments.

Let me read an excerpt -- excerpt for -- from the transcript.

It says -- Michael Cohen said on the stand: "So, I was sitting with President Trump, and he asked me if I was OK. He asked me if I needed money. And I said, 'No, all good.' He said, 'Because I can get a check.' And I said, 'No.' I said, 'I'm OK.' He said, um, 'All right, just make sure you deal with Allen.'"

And the prosecution said: "Did he say anything about anything that would be forthcoming to you?"

And Cohen said: "Yes, it would be a check for January and February."

Now, listen, the prosecution laid out there the fact that Michael Cohen has pled guilty to federal charges, he served some prison time, trying to get ahead of the defense questions. And we fully expect that to happen when the defense picks back up.

But, Wolf, listen, we're nearing the end of this trial. It's very possible the prosecution may rest its case, possibly tomorrow. We will see how long there is for redirect with Michael Cohen. And then it's the defense's turn, which we don't expect a very long defense. And then this, of course, will go to the jurors.

BLITZER: And we're not expecting Trump to take the stand, right?

GINGRAS: It doesn't -- I mean, it would be surprising if he took the stand.

But, listen, it's important to note out, Wolf, because, if you remember from the civil fraud trial, he kind of hinted on Twitter that, yes, he might take the stand. So it's possible we might see that, but it's very unlikely he's actually going to take the stand.

BLITZER: We will be watching.

Brynn Gingras, thanks as usual. Appreciate it.

GINGRAS: OK.

BLITZER: Let's discuss what's going on with our two analysts, CNN legal analyst former U.S. attorney Michael Moore and former Trump impeachment attorney Michael van der Veen. Two Michaels joining us right now.

Guys, thank you very, very much.

I want to get, both of you, your biggest takeaways, at least so far, from yesterday's very dramatic, powerful testimony.

And, Michael van der Veen -- van der Veen, let me start with you. What do you think?

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Well, I think it's obvious they're going to be going after Michael Cohen as hard as they can. I don't think they have any other way to do it, realistically.

I think the prosecution has a real problem in this case, because they're ending with Cohen, and the jury's going to be in that room saying, where's Weisselberg? Where's Weisselberg?

[11:20:10]

To end with a cross of Cohen and a small redirect, I don't think it's going to bode well for the prosecution.

BLITZER: What do you think, Michael Moore?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm glad to be with you.

I thought it was an OK day for the defense in beginning their cross- examination. I mean, I think it became clear that Cohen is an opportunist. I mean, he basically is an opportunist and takes every chance to make money off his relationship with Trump. He wanted promotion because of his relationship with Trump.

He's now selling books and doing his podcasts and apparently looking for his next gig because of this. I think that became clear. I also thought that the method of cross-examination, while it may not have seemed conventional, that is, that it wasn't all in a sequential story, it was good for the defense lawyer to do that because it allows him to catch the witness off guard, off-script, to not just follow the sequence that he's been prepping for months now, maybe years, with the government prosecutors to tell the story.

So he's moving around. And I think that's essential. You're going to see, I think in the next few days, a continued effort to discredit him. And, remember, it takes one juror. And Michael Cohen is the only thing that the people have put forward to connect Trump with this idea that somehow, instead of being a misdemeanor business records case, this should suddenly become a felony case because of some intention to commit a violation of federal law.

And they have not made that a very strong part of the case yet. So the defense is looking to show that one witness. They have got one juror. It's good that they have got a couple lawyers on the jury as well to play to, but basically to say, look, they have not met their burden of proof.

And I think that's what we're going to see over the next day or two.

BLITZER: Michael van der Veen, a few weeks ago, Trump was saying he's got nothing to hide, he'd be more than happy to take the stand and testify. Do you think he should?

VAN DER VEEN: That -- it's interesting, because that's the one question you really can't answer. It's his choice and his choice alone.

I think he could help himself getting on. I don't think that he will be tagged that much on cross-examination if he does. There's no new information. And I'm not sure his testimony really brings anything to this. I think they're going to feel comfortable with the weakness of the prosecution's cases as it went in. And he probably doesn't.

A week ago, I would have thought he's taking the stand, no questions asked. Now I don't think it's necessary.

BLITZER: And what do you think, Michael Moore?

MOORE: Well, I think my colleague is right. It's ultimately Trump's choice to decide if he's going to. But I feel like he would likely hurt himself.

And if I were advising him, I'd say, do not take the stand. And the reason is, he's got some of the same vulnerabilities that Cohen has. And that is, if they catch him in a lie or in a -- sort of a shaded mistruth, then that may be enough for the jury to believe, well, he's lying to us. He certainly knew about this.

And, clearly, he would be asked on cross, did he participate in this, did he know about federal election law, right after he's asked about what the relationship was with Ms. Daniels that he felt like he needed to cover up or at least keep out of public view.

So unless he's going to be forthcoming about everything, which I think may be an issue for him if he's trying to protect his family or reputation, his campaign, whatever, I think he sets himself in a trap that he's not going to get out of.

BLITZER: So you don't think he will testify, do you?

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: I would think he should not. I would think he should not.

BLITZER: Go ahead, Michael van der Veen.

VAN DER VEEN: After representing him before, I know he's gnawing at the bit to get on the stand.

(LAUGHTER)

VAN DER VEEN: He did it in the civil trial. I think it's going to be a wise move to sit down.

BLITZER: You thought it would be a wise move or wouldn't be a wise move?

VAN DER VEEN: Yes, I don't think he needs to testify in the defense of this case. I think that they're in a good position right now with the defense, and -- and too much risk involved.

BLITZER: You know, we -- Michael Moore, we have heard other witnesses refer to Michael Cohen as difficult, a jerk, a fixer who first broke things.

How do you think the jury is receiving him after two days of testimony?

MOORE: I think we have to remember that the jury is not like people who have maybe been following this case and is embedded in this case. That's why they're on the jury, right? They have not read his transcripts from the congressional hearing. They have not looked necessarily at every time he's made an

appearance. And so they're coming at this with a little bit cleaner slate, I think, and their optics may be a little different.

What stands out to me is that you have got a guy who is recording his client, his friend, his mentor in secret, and then not telling him that he's doing it, and then turning around and using that now against him. And I think that just paints a picture of somebody who probably can't be trusted.

You take that and couple it with these issues of the things he said in the past and how he's been in trouble with lying, and I think that paints a picture, again, that a juror will hang on to as they think about whether or not he's to be believed. And so they're -- they're -- the spectacle that they're looking at this case through may be a little bit different than the optics that other people have seen it.

[11:25:07]

And so, once you remove that issue, you remember that jurors are just everyday folks coming in supposedly listening to a case from a clean point of view and making a decision based solely on the evidence in the case. That's what the judge is going to tell them to do and to use their common sense.

And I think he comes across, especially with this merchandising and trying to sell coffee cups and other things about Trump, he just comes across as too opportunist and too much of a profiteer to be credible, especially since he's the one witness in the room that the state is relying on to tie all this up.

So they have tried to put it into a bow, but I'm afraid it's unraveled on them a little bit.

BLITZER: So, very quickly, Michael Moore, you think that Trump might be acquitted?

MOORE: I think there's a decent chance, absolutely.

I think that there's probably -- right now, I'm calling it about 50/50. And not to split the baby, but that's really where I think it is.

BLITZER: Interesting.

All right, Michael Moore, Michael van der Veen, to both of you, thank you very, very much.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And we're continuing to follow breaking news.

A European prime minister has been shot now multiple times -- what we know about the assassination attempt just ahead. We have details.

Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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