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CNN Live Saturday

Experts Agree That Death of Zarqawi is a Very Minor Defeat for the Insurgency; Three Detainees Apparently Commit Suicide in Guantanamo Boy Prison.

Aired June 10, 2006 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Half past the hour, here's what's happening right now. We're tracking the first tropical depression of the season, as it moves across the Caribbean. It could become a tropical storm later today. The hurricane headquarters is up and running at the weather center. We're headed there in just one minute from now.
New pictures NOW from Iraq. This is what's left of the hideout used by al Qaeda terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Two 500-pound bombs turned the place into rubble and killed al Zarqawi, along with his spiritual adviser. His body is undergoing an autopsy in The States today.

At Camp Pendleton in California, a rally to support Marines under investigation for a civilian death in Iraq. Family members and attorneys say the Marines are confined and being treated like criminals. A Marine statement says all the service members are being afforded their rights.

Hamas militants make good on a promise and launched rockets at Israel. So far, no reports of casualties. It is revenge, they say, retaliation for an Israeli artillery strike in Gaza that killed seven civilians.

Iran could be ready to pitch its own nuclear deal. A top Iranian diplomat says his country is working on a counter-offer. No word yet on what Iran has in mind. Six major world powers are offering to reward Iran if it abandons its nuclear enrichment program.

We update the top stories every 15 minutes on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Your next update is coming up at 2:45 eastern.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WHITFIELD: Now, this just in, a senior Bush administration official tells our Barbara Starr that three detainees at the Guantanamo Bay facility have committed suicide. Our Barbara Starr will be joining us momentarily to give us more details on this breaking story.

Meantime, a turning point in the war on terror? But a turn in what direction? Will the killing of Abu Musab al Zarqawi weaken the insurgency or lead to more violence? CNN's David Ensor filed this piece for "PAULA ZAHN NOW."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The airstrikes that killed Zarqawi were a punch in the gut for Al Qaeda in Iraq and worldwide. The way U.S. officials say they tracked him down, with inside help from his associates, gives some analysts hope it could be a turning point.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN, "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST: It was a total inside job and that they penetrated this movement in a very deep way and that can build real momentum down the road because, again, when people, people think Bin Laden and Zarqawi are winners, well, they will support them. But, the minute they smell these guys are losers, they'll run away from them.

ENSOR: Zarqawi was not just any terrorist. A heinous killer, yes, but a risk-taking charismatic one that will not be easy to replace, though many may try.

BRUCE HOFFMAN, RAND CORP.: I think there are probably doubtless, indeed, many others out there who are likely going to be inspired and motivated by Zarqawi's example and will seek to be the next Zarqawi.

ENSOR: Last year in a letter captured by U.S. intelligence, Al Qaeda's number two, Ayman Al Zawahiri, urged Zarqawi to stop the public beheadings, to stop killing so many innocent Muslims, yet, Osama Bin Laden and Zawahiri publicly embraced his bloody reign of terror. Will they be sorry to lose him?

HOFFMAN: I suspect that, with the exception of President Bush and Prime Minister Maliki, the two figures in the world that are happiest about Zarqawi's demise are precisely Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri, because Zarqawi has long been a competitor to them, a rival.

ENSOR: And, he has been more effective in recent years than Bin Laden, U.S. officials say, at attracting would-be jihadists in the Middle East and Europe.

DANIEL BENJAMIN, CO-AUTHOR, "THE NEXT ATTACK": He has done a pretty efficient job of building up the next network after Al Qaeda.

ENSOR (on camera): That next network could be home grown would- be terrorists in Europe or in the United States, inspired by Zarqawi or Bin Laden. No one is counting that out.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: "PAULA ZAHN NOW" covers the war on terror. Watch her show weeknights at 8:00 p.m. eastern.

What is next? What does the death of al Zarqawi mean for the insurgency and how does the Arab world view his death? Let's see what two experts have to say. Fawaz Gerges is a Middle East analyst and author of the new book, "Journey of the Jihadist: Inside the Muslim Militancy." Good to see you.

Also with us, Octavia Nasr, our senior editor for Arab affairs.

Professor Gerges, let me begin with you. The dust is settling. While there has been expressed relief among a number of people in the Arab community about his death, I wonder if that's being replaced by some fear or concern about who might be next to lead al Qaeda Iraq?

FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Absolutely. I think the next question is who will succeed Abu Musab al Zarqawi? And I think my own instincts tell me that al Qaeda will try to put an Iraqi face on the network in Iraq.

Abu Musab al Zarqawi was very controversial. He created a great deal of headache for al Qaeda. He alienated Sunni public opinion. And he basically did not follow orders either from Osama bin Laden or his second in command, Ayman Zawahiri.

Even though he was very charismatic and created the al Qaeda network in Iraq from scratch, even though he inflicted a great deal of pain on the Iraqis and the pro-American government in Iraq and so- called collaborators, I think he did a great deal of harm for both the insurgency and the al Qaeda worldwide.

WHITFIELD: He being Jordanian born, but why would it be so important to possibly replace him with an Iraqi?

GERGES: I mean, as Ayman al Zawahiri, al Qaeda No. 2, made it very clear, after all, this is Iraq. And Iraqi public opinion must take precedence. He told Zarqawi in vague terms, please make sure, don't alienate Sunni public opinion. If your movement is to succeed, you must listen to at least what Iraqis say.

It seems to me with the demise of Abu Musab al Zarqawi, if an Iraqi is put in place, there is a great deal of opportunity that is the insurgency in Iraq could unite and could be become much more effective than it has been so far.

WHITFIELD: That's interesting Octavia, that the insurgency could unite because many would think that the fall of al Zarqawi begets the fall of the entire insurgency, but there are different insurgent groups. He's only responsible for one, or was responsible for one.

OCTAVIA NASR, SR. EDITOR, ARAB AFFAIRS: Absolutely. And as a matter of fact, in his last statement, he made clear that there is a Shura council, that is what they call it. This is a council that was put together, made out of several insurgency groups.

As a matter of fact the statement from al Qaeda in Iraq announcing the death of Zarqawi did remind people that there is the Shura council and they're already talking about his replacement. His No. 2 man looks like he'll take over the helm of al Qaeda in Iraq. But very important to point out to our audience that the insurgency in Iraq is made out of hundreds of groups. Al Qaeda in Iraq is just one. As a matter of fact on Arab media, when you watch Arab media you listen to the experts just like here on CNN as well. They tell you that Abu Musab al Zarqawi was a man that liked to show off. Look at his last video, showing off, walking around with weapons and guns and basically experts are saying this is exactly what led to his locating him and basically finishing him.

So he's someone who likes to be on camera and he likes to release tapes. But they tell us that there are more dangerous insurgency leaders in Iraq that are operating under the radar screen and they are the ones that the U.S. should pay attention to, not the ones that show off as much as Zarqawi.

GERGES: May I --

WHITFIELD: Yes, go ahead.

GERGES: I have two points. I think Octavia is absolutely correct. I think we cannot understand why the United States was able to really pinpoint Zarqawi except by understanding the divisions and the tensions within the Sunni Arab community which has been leading the insurgency.

In fact, as you know, in the last six months or so there has been a great deal of tension within the insurgency between Zarqawi and the bulk of the insurgents. And the second point here, even if you were to eliminate the entire al Qaeda infrastructure from Iraq, not just al Zarqawi, even if al Qaeda network in Iraq was eliminated today or tomorrow, the insurgency will likely remain vibrant, deadly and lethal.

Remember, between 90 and 95 percent of the insurgents are indigenous home grown Iraqis as opposed to being foreign born like Zarqawi. That's why I think it is crucial not to exaggerate the importance of one man, like Zarqawi, deadly and brutal as he was, or even the al Qaeda network in Iraq itself.

WHITFIELD: Sarah Lawrence professor, Fawaz Gurges, as well as author of "Journey of the Jihadist: Inside Muslim Militants," and Octavia Nasr, our senior Arab affairs correspondent. Thanks so much to both of you.

Updating now a breaking story that we're following for you. Pentagon officials are telling our Barbara Starr that three detainees at Guantanamo Bay have committed suicide. Barbara Starr joins us now on the phone with the very latest. What do we know about these circumstances.

BARBARA STARR, PENTAGON STATEMENT: Indeed, the U.S. military has just put out a statement three detainees they say died of apparent suicide early this morning at the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. They're identified only as two Saudis and one Yemeni.

They were found, according to the statement, in a condition of being unresponsive and not breathing. They were found to be in their cells by guards.

The military tells us that military medical teams responded quickly. All three detainees were provided emergency medical treatment in an attempt to revive them. But indeed after life saving measures had been exhausted, according to the Pentagon, all three detainees were pronounced dead.

Now, as to what happens next, the names of the detainees are not yet being released. The State Department has been notified of this and is now in discussions with the government of Saudi Arabia and of Yemen presumably, we believe, to make arrangements to return those bodies to their families or relatives in those countries.

The Pentagon also says very specifically, the remains of the detainees are being treated with the utmost respect, that a cultural adviser is assisting, ensuring that the remains are handled in a culturally and religiously appropriate manner.

But of course, under Islamic custom, someone who has died under Islamic religious custom, they are to be buried as quickly as possible even within hours of death. So this will be a matter of some sensitivity about how quickly they can get these remains returned to their families at a great distance away.

The Naval Criminal Investigative Service, we are told, has begun an investigation into how all of this happened. This is the first time that a detainee has committed suicide, three of them now, at Guantanamo Bay. There have been any number of attempts over the last several years. None of them have been successful. There have been many instances in which detainees have tried this.

The military has kept a very close eye on this situation about attempted suicides over the years. But now, according to a statement issued by the U.S. military, three detainees have indeed committed suicide, apparent suicide, and died in their cells at Guantanamo Bay.

WHITFIELD: Barbara Starr, we'll be checking back with you. Pentagon correspondent there reporting on this breaking story. First time that a detainee being held at Guantanamo Bay has apparently committed suicide.

Three now reported apparent suicides involving two Saudis, one Yemeni. Of course, when we get more information about the investigation that is currently now under way at this U.S. Naval facility in Guantanamo Bay Cuba, we'll be able to bring that to you.

We're going to take a short break. More of CNN LIVE SATURDAY right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Less than ten minutes before the hour, here's what's happening right now in the news. A worrisome weather system now swirling in the Caribbean. The first tropical depression of this year's new hurricane season is born. It is just a few dozen miles off the western tip of Cuba. Forecasters say it could become a tropical storm later today.

An investigation is now under way at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The probe comes after the suicides of three detainees. Apparent suicides. A senior administration official says it was apparently a joint pact to protect -- protest, rather, the U.S. military prison. More details as they become available.

Carrying out a vow of revenge, Hamas militants fire a barrage of rockets at Israel but one misfires and lands in a Gaza refugee camp. The attack came in response to an Israeli artillery strike in Gaza that killed seven civilians. Israel has apologized for those casualties on the beach yesterday.

We update the top stories every 15 minutes on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Your next update is, however, is coming up at the top of the hour, 3:00 Eastern.

Millions of Americans say they've been abducted by aliens. Well, listen to what some of them have to say before you just make up your mind about it.

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WHITFIELD: This breaking story just coming out of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the detention center there. The U.S. Southern Command is reporting that there are reports of three apparent suicides involving detainees there. The details we're getting involve two Saudis and one Yemeni. They were found unresponsive, and the U.S. military is calling it an apparent suicide. This is currently under investigation.

Now, on the phone with us is Joshua Denbeaux. He's an attorney. He represents two of the detainees there. He has written some studies on the conditions for the detainees there at Guantanamo Bay. He has even visited the facility himself. He's on the phone with us now.

And Mr. Denbeaux, this news strikes you as how?

JOSHUA DENBEAUX, ATTY. FOR 2 OTHER GUANTANAMO DETAINEES: Sad. I've met two of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. They're my clients. And they live -- three of them used to live in a condition of such hopelessness that they obviously thought it would be better to be dead than to continue whatever life they were living at Guantanamo Bay.

WHITFIELD: Because those clients are among about 460 men who are being held at this facility, mostly on suspicion of links to al Qaeda and the Taliban?

DENBEAUX: Well, that was what my study was. The study looked at what the government said about these people. And far less than most were linked to either Taliban or al Qaeda. Most are linked in an extremely, extremely amorphous way to any claimed terrorist organization of the kind.

WHITFIELD: It's unusual, it is not, that your clients while they have your legal representation, the majority of whom do not, and that has been a bone of contention for a number of people worldwide who have said why continue to hold people at this detention facility without some sort of legal representation?

DENBEAUX: That's certainly true. But the larger issue is why would you hold anyone without a trial? It's incomprehensible to me. And after five years, these men have not had a trial. And it's pretty clear to anybody who reads a report or reads the government data that a vast majority of these people, the government has no case on them.

WHITFIELD: At the same time, the U.S. position has been the following -- the U.S. claiming that the detainees are not on U.S. soil, therefore are not covered by the U.S. Constitution and that, quote, "enemy combatant status" means that they can be denied some legal protection. So where do we go from here? And in any way do you see that these apparent suicides might precipitate some new debate or discussion involving Guantanamo Bay?

DENBEAUX: Well, first, the government's position can't be that they're not on American soil, and it can't be that they're not entitled to some sort of American legal protection, because the Supreme Court, in the United States, versus Rasul directed the government to provide them some kind of judicial remedy and entitled them to the habeas proceedings. But the government since that decision two-and-a-half years ago has done everything to prevent its implementation.

As to what the -- how the suicides are going to change things, it really depends on how the government reacts to this. These people have been trying to kill themselves or many of these prisoners have been trying to kill themselves for months if not years. These are simply the first three successful suicides that we know about.

WHITFIELD: And I was actually just about to ask you that, about any other attempts on detainees' own live or even we know that there have been a number of hunger strikes for a number of the detainees to try to make a point. Given that so many of the detainees are under such close watch there at this U.S. Naval facility, in your view, how is it that one could successfully commit suicide under such close watch?

DENBEAUX: I have no idea, because when we -- I go in to visit my clients, the government inspects all my books and my papers. If I have so much as a staple or a paper clip, it is taken from me. I do know -- the government in the past has denied even the suicide attempts and only admitted them when the detainees try to commit suicide in front of their own attorneys so that the attorneys can report to the outside world.

When those suicide attempts were undertaken, or at least that one, that one tried to hang himself using his bed sheets. I can't even comprehend how someone would go about doing that, let alone the depression or hopelessness that would lead someone to do it. And I have something to say about that hopelessness if you don't mind.

WHITFIELD: Go ahead. DENBEAUX: When we were there last, we tried to bring a news article of President Bush stating when he was in Europe that he intended to try to close Guantanamo as soon as this Supreme Court made its ruling some time later this month. We tried to bring that news article in, and we were stopped from doing so under the instruction that prisoners are not to know anything about the outside world.

Well, knowing that the president had intention to close Guantanamo might have given those three men just a little bit of hope that might have saved their lives.

WHITFIELD: And your thoughts right now, if this apparently took place this morning, with the U.S. Southern Command coming out with this announcement, this immediate release about what may be an apparent suicide involving these three, does that take you aback or at all surprise you at the immediacy of reporting this?

DENBEAUX: Well, why do you assume it happened this morning?

WHITFIELD: Well, I'm simply reading the U.S. Southern Command press release and that is what -- that's the detail that they're giving.

DENBEAUX: Well, assuming that that's true -- and I have my doubts as to anything the government says about Guantanamo being accurate, but assuming it's true, the reason why they would come out so quickly is because the suicide of a detainee represents the government's absolute worst nightmare, the worst public relations event they could possibly have and something they've been trying their best to avoid.

So if it did happen this morning, if they did report it right away, that would be the first time they reported anything right away. If they did report this right away, it's simply a tactical decision to engage in damage control.

WHITFIELD: All right, Joshua Denbeaux, representing two detainees there at Guantanamo Bay. Thanks so much for your insight. I know you're not going to go too far away, because we will be revisiting this subject as we get continued updates on this story. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

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