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CNN Live Saturday

Space Shuttle Discovery Launch Questionable; Osama Bin Laden Releases Second Tape; Judge Throws Out John Couey Confession in Lunsford Case

Aired July 01, 2006 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, new information coming in from the Kennedy Space Center. Is it a go or a no-go?
Our Miles O'Brien is there.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, there's one obstacle that no longer stands in the way of the flight of Discovery today. We still have storm clouds overhead, but the mission management team -- those are the senior managers who run space shuttle missions -- has decided that that bulky thruster -- as a matter of fact, we have a close-up shot of the actual thruster area on the launch pad.

That bulky thruster which has a problem with its thermostat or heater, is not a problem that will delay the launch. It's right down in this area is where you would find the vernier thruster. You can't see the opening for it right now from this particular angle.

But that is one of six thrusters with only 24 pounds of force compared to the normal thrusters which orient the orbiter while it's in space with 800 pounds of thrust. In the process of the countdown today, it was determined that it wasn't working properly.

Eileen Collins, who is a former shuttle commander, has been talking to some people who have been clued into what those discussions were all about.

What was it -- when I asked you, Eileen, if you'd fly without the vernier, you were like, sure, no problem. Steve Lindsey probably said the same thing. But what was the thinking? What was the decision on flying without it?

EILEEN COLLINS, FMR. SHUTTLE COMMANDER: Well, we know right now that the heater is not working. It could start working out in orbit. If it does, great. If it continues to malfunction, when the crew turns on the verniers, we'll get a jet fail message if the temperature is wrong.

The crew can then reselect the jet and still use it as long as we use keep the temperature within limits by using attitude control. You can either aim the jet towards the sun to heat up it or away from the sun to cool it down. And if you can keep the jet within range, you could conceivably use it.

And this would be something that Houston will have to decide once they get in orbit. If you can't use the jet or if you subsequently get, for example, a leak or another failure, you could then close the manifold and not use the verniers at all and continue the mission on the primary jets. It's not a safety issue.

O'BRIEN: So you lose those really, really subtle maneuvers, it becomes a little more herky-jerky, a little less precise.

COLLINS: That's right.

O'BRIEN: But something you train -- you said about half your time in simulators are spend -- what do you do without verniers?

COLLINS: It's a little bit harder to fly without the verniers, so we spend about half our time training without them. It will use a little bit more fuel, but I think the crew won't have a problem with it.

O'BRIEN: All right, we'll watch that as it progresses.

Meanwhile, we're also watching the weather here. Right now, frankly, I see a lot of blue sky. We were seeing a lot of dark clouds. They're still -- I believe we're technically red or no-go for launch on account of weather, but nevertheless, it's -- as they say in this business, a very dynamic situation. We're watching that very carefully.

The crew is strapped in, the hatch is shut, 500,000 gallons of liquid hydrogen and oxygen inside that burnt orange fuel tank. You see the oxygen at the top, bleeding off. And you see the hydrogen at the bottom bleeding off, as it is constantly replenished, now about an hour and 20 minutes in advance, hour and 15 minutes in advance of the intended launch.

Want to bring in another guest who is going to join us right now. Randy Avera was an engineer in the space shuttle program. Gosh, I was just probably a young, young child then, probably. But this was many, many years ago. He was a young child, too. He's a prodigy in every way.

It's good to have you with us, Randy. I know you've been following this whole debate over the foam falling off the tank, obviously. You've written a couple of books about the Challenger and Columbia, of course.

The debate has been interesting in the sense that the administrator overrode a no-go choice on the part of the chief engineer and the chief safety officer. If you were the administrator, would you have made that call?

RANDY AVERA, FORMER NASA ENGINEER: Well, the administrator sees a lot more information than we do, not being the administrator, and he is the administrator. What's important is whatever the criteria is that the administrator operates and, of course, within the law, that's what the administrator's limits become. As long as the administrator has acted within the law, he's doing what all administrators do, they administrate. And I think what's got the press concerned is this Freedom of Information Act request where the press had asked for information that was regarding the decision to launch to be released publicly. And that seems to be a debate whether that should be released or not be released. But the law clearly defines what those procedures are for the release or not release of information.

O'BRIEN: Let's help people understand that for just a moment. It was actually unusual. When Eileen and her crew flew last year at this time in Discovery, they released flight readiness review documents. In other words, all the debate, documentation surrounding the debate, prior to the launch, that was unusual. Typically that kind of documentation comes out after a mission has flown.

So in this case, the reporter's, like, OK, well, you're going to give us those documents again, right? And they said no. And that, of course, makes reporters think something's going on. What does it make you think?

AVERA: Well, it's the prerogative of the administrator, the authority delegated to the administrator, to make that call. The fact that it was released at a certain time on previous missions, it's a generosity of the agency sometimes. But I think the important thing to focus on here is the technical part and the business part of flying in space.

We found that the external tank is a very complicated system which gives great credit to the designers of the 1960s and 70s that conceived this disposable, external fuel tank. And as we've become knowledgeable about the complexity of it, it's interesting to stay focused on what NASA research is doing to understand the design and the safety of flying this configuration.

O'BRIEN: Twenty-five years later, we're still learning a lot about the shuttle. And this time, it's the most significant aerodynamic change to that tank since day one.

They took off this 32-pound hunk of foam called a PAL ramp, which was designed there to smooth over some aerodynamics over some pipes. Not there anymore. They've tested it in a wind tunnel. You're concerned though that there might be some problems with vibrations with that exposed plumbing and hardware.

AVERA: Well, the aerodynamic changes on the exterior, the orange external tank, those are significant, but the largest change, design change, during the 1990s was when they went to a lightweight and then a super lightweight external fuel tank. They removed about 10,000 pounds of mass out of the external tank.

Well, now the external aerodynamic loads and vibration loads can still be the same applied loads, but the response of the skin of external tank can be different because it's now 10,000 pounds lighter. That's my concern.

I'm a structural and aerospace engineer, having worked on the orbiter, and in the early days of the orbiter, we looked at the vibration response characteristics of the orbiter. And maybe this is something we're learning for the future because shuttle vehicles are not going to go away.

We're going to need them on other planets that have atmospheres to fly unmanned and manned missions into those atmospheres and out of those atmospheres. So it's important that we learn as much as we can about this configuration. And we're going to see a wide variety of vehicles being designed in the future.

And the truth is, NASA's about 20 years behind on where it should be. You know, the late 80s and 90s and into the 2000s, we've lost many years of research and development, science and a variety of vehicles. The charter of NASA requires a wide variety of vehicles. We build the rockets to do the science.

O'BRIEN: Randy Avera, making a case for more vehicle. It keeps people like you and you busy and for that matter me, too. We like to report about them.

AVERA: And the many other people that are coming through school today.

O'BRIEN: All right. Randy Avera, Eileen Collins, back with more as the countdown continues. Now about an hour and 10 minutes to launch, weather permitting, now that we have no technical glitches in the way -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Miles, Randy and Eileen, thanks so much.

And as a reminder, CNN will have rolling coverage of today's scheduled launch of the Space Shuttle Discovery which begins in about 20 minutes at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, our rolling coverage does, 12:00 noon Pacific.

CNN LIVE SATURDAY will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A little girl is sexually assaulted and buried alive, but a suspect's confession is now tossed out of court about a week before trial is to begin. In our legal briefs this week, we're looking at the Jessica Lunsford case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD (voice-over): A jury will never hear the chilling recorded words of John Evander Couey, as he allegedly describes how he buried alive little Jessica Lunsford in February 2005. This is the problem.

JOHN COUEY, MURDER SUSPECT: I want to talk to a lawyer. I want a lawyer here present. I want to talk with a lawyer.

WHITFIELD: That was Couey, repeatedly requesting a lawyer during his interrogation. He was not provided one. A judge calls that, quote, a profound violation of one of the most bedrock principles of criminal law, end quote. So the judge has thrown out the confession. Law enforcement officials defend their actions.

SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY, FLORIDA: The day we interviewed John Couey in the investigation, we still believed Jessica was alive. OK? Those guys were on the premise of looking for a live child. I don't think they went up there maliciously. I don't think they were overly emotionally involved. I think they were very methodical in the way they went about doing their business.

WHITFIELD: Couey's confession helped lead investigators to the young girl's body. A judge says the discovery of the body can be used as evidence. Nine-year-old Jessica was found stuffed in a garbage bag, kneeling and clutching a stuffed animal. She had been sexually assaulted and buried live. Authorities insist they have enough DNA and other evidence to get a conviction.

DAWSY: You will now see the evidence that this agency has compiled to convict John Couey and put him to death, OK? Yes, we would have liked to had the confession go in, but as I've told you privately and publicly, that was not what I would say the rock part of this case.

WHITFIELD: Jessica Lunsford's father says he is also confident.

MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA'S FATHER: I'm confident in the system. I'm confident in the prosecuting attorneys, the state attorney's office. I'm confident in all those people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So the confession ruled inadmissible. Let's see what our legal experts have to say about this case. Avery Friedman is a civil rights attorney and law professor. Good to see you, Avery.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Nice to see you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Richard Herman is a New York criminal defense attorney. Good to see you well, Richard.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, the prosecutors had argued that he, Couey, requested an attorney when they suggested a polygraph. The judge says doesn't matter. Richard, you agree?

HERMAN: Well, I do agree. He requested an attorney six times during the interrogation. And the Fifth Amendment to this little document we have called the United States constitution says that once a defendant requests counsel, they must be provided counsel, and all questioning must stop in a custodial situation. The purpose of that is to make sure that any confessions that are given are pure and not coerced.

If he had a lawyer there and made a confession, that would be admissible. But because he requested a lawyer, the question he had a stop, and anything that flowed from that, any evidence that law enforcement obtained as a result of that confession most likely should be suppressed. Except in this case the judge made another ruling that law enforcement would have found the body anyway, and therefore they're going to allow the admission of the body into evidence during the trial.

WHITFIELD: So, Avery, do you agree with that, they would have found the body anyway? Because it sure did take them a long time. And usually, As Richard was explaining, if the evidence is garnered from that kind of confession, that, too, is thrown out.

FRIEDMAN: Well, in many instances, that's correct. But there was independent evidence, Fredricka, in this case where detectives and law enforcement were able to get enough evidence to establish this crime. They've got to get this guy. The difficulty here is and my view's a little bit different. In a way, it's understandable, but you have to be a little bit angry with law enforcement. They were hot on the trail of Couey. There was substantial evidence. Why in the world would you risk getting this conviction?

WHITFIELD: I mean, they should know better. These detectives should know better to listen to a request for an attorney.

FRIEDMAN: Right. Well, in addition to that, they also, they potentially jeopardized the evidence which followed as a result of the commission. And this guy may have very well gotten off. Now, he hasn't been convicted yet, but there is, again, sufficient independent evidence, including DNA and other information that will get this conviction.

WHITFIELD: Richard?

HERMAN: This happens all the time in the United States. This happens all the time. Don't be surprised. Law enforcement continue to press, even when attorneys are requested. This happens all the time. But the judge held Avery is right, the blood evidence matched up DNA with the little girl, and in addition to that, there was dirt on top of leaves in the yard.

FRIEDMAN: Right.

HERMAN: So the judge said, you know, law enforcement would have found this. But I'll tell you something, Fred. This guy's going to get convicted. Mr. Lunsford should just cool his jets right now. In addition to everything else, apparently Couey made admissions to correctional officers while he was incarcerated. At least two times he said I did it, I didn't mean to, but I did it. That's all coming in.

FRIEDMAN: He also said it in jail, too.

HERMAN: Yes.

FRIEDMAN: There's enough independent evidence to get this guy to convict him.

WHITFIELD: All right. Avery Friedman and Richard Herman, thanks so much. Sorry this is such a short segment today, but we sure have a lot going on today. Thanks so much. Have a great holiday weekend.

FRIEDMAN: Godspeed.

WHITFIELD: That's right, Godspeed to you as well. And all the crew members aboard the shuttle Discovery.

Other breaking news we wanted to follow. This being a new message coming from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in the form of an audiotape that was released on a website. Terrorist analyst Peter Bergen is on the phone with us now. Peter, we're getting bits and pieces about the kind of message that was conveyed from bin Laden. One warning Iraqi Shiites, saying your areas won't be safe from retaliation if you raid Sunni cities. Why are we hearing a message from him for a second time in two days?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, first of all, I guess he's embracing the new leader of al Qaeda in Iraq. The previous message was talking about Abu Musab al Zarqawi's death and sort of the bemoaning that. I think this message is quite significant. This is the first time that I can think of that bin Laden has ever called for attacking the Shia. In fact, al Qaeda central has been very reluctant to engage in that, hasn't criticized Iran, hasn't criticized the Shia and, in fact, you may recall, Fredricka, there was a letter from Zawahiri to Zarqawi in 2005, captured by the U.S. military, in which Zawahiri basically told Zarqawi to stop killing Shias. So, this represents a change of direction for them.

WHITFIELD: And we're also hearing, during translations of this message, that he also has a message that pertains to Somalia.

BERGEN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Why is that significant?

BERGEN: Well, Fredricka, you may recall the Blackhawk Down incident in Somalia, Mogadishu in 1993. I think al Qaeda played some role in that. They certainly were training Somalis to kill Americans in that time frame. They've had quite a long historical links with Somalia. We have a new government of sorts in Somalia, led by a man the U.S. government alleges is somewhat tied to al Qaeda. They would love to be able to establish a sort of a mini Taliban-style state in Africa, in which al Qaeda and like-minded militants could regroup.

WHITFIELD: And when we talk about al Qaeda in Iraq and you mentioned how Osama bin Laden is embracing the new leader, al Masri, what, if anything, do we know about him right now?

BERGEN: Well, we know he's an Egyptian. Al Masri simply means "The Egyptian." The U.S. military, in a conference in Baghdad, said this guy had been associated with Egypt's Jihad group since 1982. I think that's significant also because the Jihad group is basically Ayman al Zawahiri, the number two guy in al Qaeda. This implies that these guys have known each other for more than two decades. That would imply a quite close relationship between al Qaeda on the Afghan/Pakistan border and al Qaeda in Iraq.

WHITFIELD: Terrorism analyst Peter Bergen, thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for your analysis.

BERGEN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Now, we are only about an hour away from the scheduled launch of the Shuttle Discovery. Our live coverage with Miles O'Brien begins at the top of the hour. CNN LIVE SATURDAY will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The afternoon dicey weather is starting to rear its head, with Space Shuttle Discovery poised for a possible launch. Clouds forming west of Cape Canaveral have NASA officials watching the radar. Our live coverage begins momentarily. The launch is scheduled for 3:49 Eastern.

Let's check in, once again, with Bonnie Schneider for a quick look at the weather for the shuttle launch. Still see those clouds in the air, however, Bonnie.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WHITFIELD: Our eyes are on the sky. Thanks so much.

Our live coverage begins momentarily. The launch is set for 3:49 Eastern.

Now little cars, before NASCAR, they raced on dirt. They still do, 800 tracks in 49 states and 30 million fans across America. Dirt track racing is the biggest sport you've never heard of. It's also the subject of this weekend's "CNN Presents." Here's Miles O'Brien with a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: On dirt. They still do, 800 tracks in 49 states, 30 million fans every year. An estimated billion dollar a year business. Dirt track racing is the biggest sport you've never heard of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lot of action all the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's so close. Any seat in the house, you're right on top of the action.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's dirt flying in the air. There's dirt in your beer. There's dirt in your hamburger. It's in your face. Literally, the dirt's in your face when you leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're running sideways, and you're on the gas, and you're throwing dirt over the fence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't believe we're going that fast sometimes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the noise and violence and contact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dirt track racing is Americana.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's grass roots, it's blue collar, and it's all across the United States.

TIM LEE, EDITOR, DIRT LATE MODEL MAGAZINE: Short track Saturday night dirt track racing is like the summertime equivalent of Friday night football, especially in smaller towns. It's a center of community where people gather. And for local racing, they go watch their cousin or their brother or their mechanic out there doing their thing. When the big races come to town, they go to see their heroes like your Scott Bloomquists, Chuck Francin (ph), whoever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lot of people say if you're not eating dirt, you're not racing. I don't prefer to eat it. But I do prefer racing on it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: "CNN PRESENTS," Dirt Track Warriors. It's the story of great characters, great speed and the pulse of American culture. Catch it tonight at 8:00 Eastern only on CNN.

And our live coverage of the launch of the Space Shuttle Discovery kicks off at the top of the hour. Miles O'Brien is live from the Kennedy Space Center. And we're bringing all of it to you from countdown to liftoff and beyond. It's an in-depth hour. And it all begins right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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