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Dr. Drew
Is Social Media Enabling ISIS?
Aired September 15, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, terrorists and Twitter. Beheadings on YouTube. Barbaric acts spread via social media.
Are we helping them by sharing the links?
Behavior bureau sounds off on terror porn.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
Sam, terror porn? We`ll talk about that.
And coming up, police say a mother used Facebook to talk about her lovely home life.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Oh, Dr. Drew, lovely indeed. Police arrested her after finding three dead babies inside, and also dirty diapers piled
two feet high.
PINSKY: Oh, my God.
All right. But first, the terror porn. Are we being recruited by ISIS, the terror organization beheading Westerners? Not literally, but
ISIS has mastered social media so well, perhaps they`re using us to spread their message. Some are calling this terror porn.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ISIS is particularly good at using the media and social media, the new media, to try to really alarm people. It sometimes
causes us to respond in extremely emotional ways.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do we as moms comfort and encourage our children from the terror of is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fear is strong in America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ISIS supporters continue turning to social media to spread their message of fear, some even allegedly targeting Twitter
employees, with threats of violence after Twitter disabled terrorists online accounts, "The time has arrived to respond to Twitter`s management
by directly attacking their employees and physically at assassinating them."
UNIDENITIFIED MALE: ISIS videos and porn. You may find some eerie similarities. These videos are short, some lasting no more than 12
seconds, and low budget, making use of a single camera.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: All right. Joining us, Vanessa Barnett of hiphollywood.com, Loni Coombs, attorney, author of "You`re Perfect and Other Lies Parents
Tell", Mike Catherwood, he is co-host with me on the radio program, "Love Line".
Mike, do you make that connection between pornography and ISIS` use of violence?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, LOVE LINE: I mean, I didn`t immediately make the connection, but if you look at how they are made like --
PINSKY: Forget how they`re made. How about the impact, the way people use them and show them around and sort of can`t look away.
CATHERWOOD: When it comes to kind of these short, very viral, very popular Internet sensation type of porn clips, I do think there is a lot of
similarity. It becomes word of mouth and then you almost dare other people to watch them and these clips take on a life of their own. And I do feel
like the -- like is and other terrorist groups use these clips and do use the Internet in the same way that gonzo porn makers would to spread their
work.
PINSKY: All right. Loni, should Twitter and other social media sites being going after certain accounts and shutting them down? Are we -- in
American psychology, we`re like oh, no, it`s free speech. We`re not -- you know, we`re as bad as the terrorist. We start limiting expression.
COOMBS: No, no. I mean, come on, let`s use common sense here. We`re not worried about free speech when we`re talking about our civilization,
all of our freedoms being taken away by someone as horrible as this terrorist group. So, I`m more concerned about doing what we can do disrupt
them.
If Twitter and other social outlets can do something to at least disrupt their marketing ploy, and let`s face it. This is one of the best
modern marketing tools that we all have. We all know how to do hashtags. We all know how to do the videos and they`re doing it in a very effective
way. They have experts telling them how to do this, believe me.
PINSKY: But, Sam, it`s bizarre to me. I wonder, A, what other social media they`re using. And, B, why -- Mike, why is something as vile and
violent and repulsive as these sorts of acts something that we would want to go to and spread through social media?
SCHACHER: Well, here`s the scary thing, Dr. Drew, they`re using everything from Twitter to, not Tinder Mike (ph), but Facebook, to
Instagram, Facebook. And, Dr. Drew, they`ve become so sophisticated with it, where they are really utilizing pop culture references, slaying it, to
get to the younger demographic and recruitment.
So, here`s an example, I want to show you couple of Instagram photos, that we found in an online article for "Vice." The first one, if we can
look at the gun. They`re trying to substitute YOLO. You remember, you only live once.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: They`re saying YODO. You only die once. Why not make it a martyrdom. And in this one, they`re capitalizing on the popularity of
wildly successful video game "Call of Duty." And that`s what`s scary, Dr. Drew, and I just want to point out for all the parents out there, so they
are aware that this is happening. Not just over there, but here, and to not turn a blind eye to it.
PINSKY: Yes, Vanessa, I wanted to ask you, what if your child grows up and starts -- let`s say this kind of nonsense is still going. Maybe I`m
using the wrong words. I find myself very upset by all this.
SCHACHER: Me, too.
PINSKY: I can`t get my head around it. But let`s say your child is interacting with some of these people, responding to these videos or
sending these videos. What, Vanessa, do you do?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I do want to say this isn`t surprising. It is upsetting, I agree with you there, but
it`s not surprising. When you have an agenda you want to push, years ago you tried to get on TV. Now, you tweet. You have a hashtag.
PINSKY: But they didn`t behead people on television.
BARNETT: They have an evil, disruptive agenda.
PINSKY: They don`t see it that way.
BARNETT: It`s same thing as us tweeting for Dr. Drew online. I think that is what they`re thinking. DR. DREW ON CALL, we`re tweeting all the
time, I want to kill people and show the world they need to fear me, I`m going to tweet. It`s that simple --
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: The debate is --
BARNETT: As a parent, you know I believe in invasive parenting. No way is my daughter talking to a terrorist online and I don`t know. I`m in
Twitter, I`m in the Instagram, and I`m on her Facebook.
CATHERWOOD: And there can be the debate of whether or not the popularity, as far as views go with some of these clips, equates to any
type of sympathy or recruitment.
BARNETT: But, Mike, they couldn`t be doing this if it weren`t working. And, Loni, that`s my concern, how is this working? What is wrong
with us?
COOMBS: Well, Dr. Drew, they`re even more sophisticated. They`re targeting different groups. I mean, there`s promotion videos in HD with
English subtitles, which got really scares me. I mean, they sound like they have militants playing Nutella.
Who in the world do are they appealing to there? I mean, they have different demographics that they are trying to appeal to. And they`re
tailoring their video. It`s not just the beheadings and the graphics. They have the militants going into the hospitals, giving candy to children,
or, you know, focusing on the injured militants.
So, it`s not just this graphic horrible stuff. And they`re using hashtags like World Cup 2014. So, you think you`re looking at something,
and you get sucked into this ISIS --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: By the way, I got spammed by these guys. My producers made me calls --
SCHACHER: What? What do you mean?
PINSKY: I was getting tagged on just hundreds of these things. They were violent and they were like disturbing. If I were younger, I wouldn`t
be able to go to sleep at night reading this stuff. Absolutely. I don`t understand what that accomplishes.
My producers made me call security here.
BARNETT: I mean, they even have memes. They have babies next to assault rifles. They have their -- like we said, using the hashtags.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: You know what I find really hypocritical, though, is they`re so quick to condemn America and modern Western civilization because of
advanced technology. But then, they jump on the social media bandwagon so they can spread their ideology, so they can recruit people. Do they not
see the hypocrisy here?
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: There`s one very important difference between pornography and these ISIS videos, in that pornography, a lot of times head is given,
whereas in the ISIS videos --
PINSKY: OK.
CATHERWOOD: -- heads are taken away.
PINSKY: OK, OK.
BARNETT: No!
PINSKY: I want -- here`s what I want to do, I want to bring in a behavior bureau and I want to talk about a 19-year-old American girl who
recently -- excuse me, pleaded guilty to helping ISIS. She was recruited by an ISIS gentleman through Skype. She was actually recruited from her
home, and I believe she actually -- did she go over? We`ll find out what this and bring in the behavior bureau and try to figure out how somebody
becomes so vulnerable and how they are exploited.
And later, a stranger confronts a father taking a picture of his own daughters. Here they are. Did that stranger go too far with the "see
something, say something" we`ve been advocating? That dad that took these pictures is here.
We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An American woman has just pleaded guilty to conspiring to help the terror group ISIS. She`s all of 19 years of age.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s from Colorado, and she`s also a certified nurse`s aid. She admits she met a man on the internet. The two shared
extremist Muslim beliefs and he told her he was with ISIS. They hatched this plan that they would get married. She would go to Syria and she would
become a nurse in an ISIS camp.
I spoke with her mother just a couple of weeks ago who tells me her daughter was clueless. She says she`s just a teenager with a big mouth and
she now realizes she made a horrible mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam.
We`re talking about how terror groups are exploiting the Internet to get their recruits. Let`s bring the behavior bureau. Leeann Tweeden,
social commentator, host of "Tomboy" podcast on Blog Talk Radio, Erica America, psychotherapist, TV host, and Judy Ho, clinical psychologist,
professor at Pepperdine University.
Sam, give me the story on this girl. I still don`t understand. She`s just a teenager who went too far down the rabbit hole? Tell us.
SCHACHER: OK. Dr. Drew, so she met this ISIS guy over the Internet. He recruited her via Skype. And he lived in the Middle East. They had
never met. They`re being engaged.
PINSKY: How did they meet?
SCHACHER: The only information I have is via Skype, and the internet.
PINSKY: Weird.
SCHACHER: I know. I guess they had some commonalities, whatever those maybe, and a love affair ensued over the Internet, OK? And she
wanted to go out there and work as a nurse. She said she would fight, if need be. And she was finally busted by the FBI in April when she was on
her way to go meet him.
PINSKY: Judy, we hear about these people stateside and hear about British citizens being recruited. What do you think the profile is of
somebody who`s vulnerable to be exploited by these organizations?
JUDY HO, PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY: I think the type of profile that we`re looking at is somebody who doesn`t have an identity, who`s got kind
of a young mind, just like this individual, who doesn`t really have a sense of belonging here at home in America. And I feel like that they`re very
vulnerable, if they don`t have a social group that kind of keep some happy, satisfied and like dissuaded from this feeling of loneliness.
PINSKY: Erica America, do you agree with that? Or does abuse play a role here, too?
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: Yes. Well, any young person who is missing a family structure or a sense of belonging in their family is going
to be looking for something else, guidance outwardly.
PINSKY: Is it the new cult?
AMERICA: It could be -- no, exactly. So, it could be this is what I look at -- it could be a sports team, it could be becoming a monster or a
Lovatic with their favorite artist. It could be a cult or a gang, or it could be then ISIS.
So, as you can see, it`s a spectrum of things getting worse and worse. Now, it`s basically, ISIS is dangling in front of them a future that seems
better than what they have. Like their future may feel hopeless to them.
PINSKY: Or at least belonging -- at least belonging to something and creating meaning. But, Leeann, why isn`t it sufficient to go, yes, yes, I
understand all that. But take a look at these guys, they`re cutting people`s heads off. Is that OK?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I don`t know what this girl was thinking. I think everything that the Dr. Ho said and Erica said is true.
I think the girl just didn`t know what she was. I think it sounded exciting to them. A guy was paying attention to her. And they`re really
focused in -- when they find a little lamb like that, that is just willing and ready to jump at anything they say, and is willing to give her life, we
think, you know, I mean, she was going to Syria. She was attempting to.
But you know, Dr. Drew, I`ve been through villages in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I remember walking through these villages and seeing
families -- and I thought to myself, my gosh, what is -- why are they willing to die for these 72 virgins? Why are they willing to be martyrs.
I thought, to myself, are they willing to die for what? They have nothing.
To me, it`s like, we have so much to live for. And this girl is in the greatest country in the world, and yet she`s willing to follow somebody
she sees on a TV screen, not really knowing that they`re willing to give up her life very easily. Look, if she came over there, she would be one of
the first people to die.
PINSKY: Erica, you first. But this is one of the most disturbing stories in our country today, which is that young people are so lost, so
disconnected from self and family, no religious or spiritual values, that they can be the targets for people that are brutal terrorists. Are we
really at that point?
AMERICA: Yes, that sense of identity belonging, everything that you just said, it`s so lacking in these people. I believe these are the young
people that would be going to gangs.
PINSKY: But these people --
AMERICA: It`s not going to be an epidemic.
PINSKY: Well --
AMERICA: Dr. Drew, I know you`re worried. I don`t see it being an epidemic, but I do think we need to worry about it. And it is very scary,
but there could be mental illness involved, as well. So, I think it`s the background of the family mixed with maybe the predisposition towards mental
illness.
PINSKY: Judy?
AMERICA: And being --
PINSKY: Judy, go ahead.
HO: I think the more that social media permeates our lives, the social lives of young people, the more they actually feel disconnected.
And it`s kind of like a negative cycle, because they then keep going back to social media to try to get that sense of belonging. And guess what,
it`s never going to replace face-to-face interaction, picking up a phone, all the things that we used to do before this Internet happened.
So I actually do think it`s going to be a big problem. And let`s not forget the power of our minds in self-justification, even when you`re
seeing these beheadings. None of these people actually feel like they`re bad people. They all have a good reason for doing what they`re doing.
Nobody thinks they`re the bad people here.
TWEEDEN: Now, Dr. Drew we`re connected with the world. That`s the difference. We`re not joining a gang down the street. We`re connecting to
people in Syria and Iraq and Afghanistan.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes, I want to just provide a little bit of clarity about this girl, not to excuse her behavior in the slightest. And I know we`re
trying to understand it, but this was before the first coverage of the beheadings. And since she saw those beheadings, she did say, wow, this is
in so many words, this is abhorrent and I would have never been part of that. And this isn`t what he sold to me.
PINSKY: But, Sam, to say -- for the mom to say this is just a teenager. You know teenagers will be teenagers.
AMERICA: There`s a perfect example.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right. But this is -- my wife read this article in "The New York Times" and ended up staying up all night, it was so
disturbing that a teenage girl from Minnesota --
SCHACHER: It`s close to home. It`s here.
PINSKY: That she would be just so persuaded by someone that they met through electronic media and so adrift. What are we looking at here in our
country, Erica?
AMERICA: Yes, that`s why Vanessa in the last break made a great point. With the Internet and social media becoming such a prevalent part
of our lives, parenting more than ever before has to be huge. In our lives, you need to know everything their kids doing in our lives --
PINSKY: So, you`re saying families and spiritual life and community, all the basics. Guess what? Grandma knew the right answers. How about
that? And yet we have a problem in our country right now.
I read -- I was reading a review of books called "World Order". It`s one of Henry Kissinger`s book. This author of the review was just going
about how serious the situation has become on in the world.
That was disturbing enough, but to see it sort of exploiting and taking advantage of what is going wrong in our world, it`s bothering me.
It`s bothering me a lot and it`s scaring me. I think we should all be ascared. Did I say ascared, guys?
SCHACHER: Yes, you did. Now I`m scared.
PINSKY: You should be ascared of me saying ascared.
TWEEDEN: But, you know, sometimes, Dr. Drew, we see girls that meet a guy online and they go from California to New York to meet them. Then they
get scared when they actually get there. Can you imagine this girl getting to Syria and then realizing what she got into?
HO: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: Maybe -- I don`t know. To me, this whole thing really speaks of something very pernicious, very problematic and very concerning.
We`re going to switch gears. We`re going to talk -- yes, Erica, well done.
We`re going to talk next about police say that this woman was boasting about, posting it on Facebook about her idyllic family life, arrested then
three days later, with three dead babies in her home, as well as life in complete squalor. And we will show you what else police found inside.
And later, was this woman mistaken for a prostitute because she was publicly making out with her white boyfriend? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The house is filled with vermin. We have flies and bugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Blackstone home where four children were living in squalor and three babies were found deceased.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have some diapers in some areas as much as a foot and a half to two feet high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feces on the walls and on the surfaces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More dead animals were found, a dog and a cat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The smell that used to come from the house was just -- it was unreal of how somebody could live in something like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother who rented the home, Erika Murray --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s the mother of the oldest two children and that there are no birth records for the youngest two.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Loni and Mike.
Four children found in the home living in utter filth. Police then discovered the bodies of three dead babies.
Sam, what about the mother`s social profile. What was she posting on Facebook?
SCHACHER: OK. So, this is what has me so perplexed. How many times do we see signs on their social profile, whether they`re evil or whether
they`re suffering from a mental illness. Here: not the case. In fact, she seems loving, caring, intelligent, a good parent, surprise, surprise.
Let me read some of the posts. Here`s one from August 23rd. "It was a good day. We got everything the kids need for back to school. And I got
awesome news about my sales at the store." Her job. "Going to lay down and relax."
Another post on August 11th, "I will be glad to see my kids tomorrow. It`s been nice but I`m bored to death without them."
And then, finally, on July 17, "It`s official. I have a teenager. Happy birthday, daughter. I love you so much."
PINSKY: Well, in the midst of this seemingly normal parenting, here is the filth they were living in. Feces on the walls, as you heard from
the police. dirty diapers filed two feet high. Vermin, bugs. Look at this, look at this -- dead animals, a dog and cat, Sam. I know it disturbs
you more than anything. And three dead babies.
Vanessa, again, I`m spending my night tonight going, I don`t understand. This is another one I don`t understand.
BARNETT: There is no way to understand this. I`m hearing that the lawyer is saying, oh, she must have some mental illness. I`m sick of it.
It is B.S.!
CATHERWOOD: Well --
BARNETT: This woman, no, no --
PINSKY: Well, let`s say, what if she were like cognitively impaired, like she had some sort of, you know, intellectual problem.
BARNETT: It didn`t look like that on Facebook.
PINSKY: I know. She doesn`t seem to be that at all. When I first heard this story, I thought that was it. But I sort of supporting your
point, Vanessa.
BARNETT: She can take care of these two older kids and she was so affectionate, and loving. But these two younger kids are treated like
crap, like the F-word that`s sitting there on her wall, and she treats them like nothing because this boyfriend of hers didn`t want kids? And then,
again, this boyfriend doesn`t know about the other additional kids that she`s had but he lives in the house, too?
PINKSY: Explain that.
BARNETT: I`m just very confused by it all.
PINSKY: So, the 3-year-old and 6-month-old, they had signs of neglect, those were children that she claimed to her boyfriend. Is this
right, Sam? That she was merely babysitting because he didn`t want any other children.
How did she hide the pregnancy? She must have five pregnancies. Three dead babies and two children that she`s baby sitting.
Loni, can you make any sense of this?
COOMBS: No. And this is not the first time we`ve seen this, Dr. Drew. These women who have these babies and then either kill them or
somehow pass it off and say they were never pregnant. I want to know about this boyfriend. I mean, where is his responsibility in this? He was
living in the home.
PINSKY: Why isn`t he in jail? Maybe he`s causing the whole thing. This may have been a coercive controlling relationship that went out of
control.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right. I mean, clearly, that`s why she didn`t want to let him know or admit that they were his babies, these other two
children who were so horribly treated.
But, look, even if he didn`t know those were his, which hard to believe, but he knew the other two were his and living in this squalor and
in feces and in vermin and with dead animals. What is he doing to take care of those kids? They`re his kids, too.
Dads don`t get a pass. You know, they`re his kids. It`s not babysitting, that`s not doing something extra. That`s part of being a dad.
You need to be responsible.
CATHERWOOD: I`ll be surprised if he didn`t plan on escaping this situation somehow. I mean, if he had been open about not wanting these
children, I wouldn`t be surprised if he`s nowhere to be found.
PINSKY: Mike, do you think drugs and alcohol are involved? I`m not seeing any of this necessarily.
CATHERWOOD: Yes, I mean, honestly, Dr. Drew, until I saw her social media messaging, I would have suspected either severe mental illness, but
she seems so kind of together, at least somewhat eloquent. At some point, I just feel attorneys use the idea of mental illness to their advantage.
PINSKY: Of course.
CATHERWOOD: There has to be some point where that margin kind of shrivels up. I mean, when can she be held accountable for the murder of
children?
PINSKY: That --to me, as a male, I almost have a hard time understanding what would take a woman to that point. By the way, we were
talking about who is going to get exploited and picked up by ISIS. Here`s some candidates.
SCHACHER: But, Dr. Drew, I was looking at the interaction between she and her friends too on her Facebook profile, and she is really considerate
to them and then also funny. And, then also saying things she will post other really sad stories, similar to cases that we cover and say, "Wow!
Some people should not be parents." I do not understand how she can act one way on social media and then live another. I mean is that the sign of
a mental illness or that part of her trickery?
PINSKY: Well, it makes me wonder -- it is trickery, but it makes me wonder about the boyfriend. The pictures you, guys, were just showing us,
can you bring those back up again? Is that the basement of the house? OK. So, that is the basement where the boyfriend lives. So, he lived in
squalor. There he is. Lovely.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: This is more than hoarding. This is way beyond that. This is absolute filth. This is inhumane environment to raise a child. What is
that Loni.
COOMBS: Well, Dr. Drew, talking about trickery. I mean to cover that the two younger children were not hers, she actually made up a whole
Facebook post identity of this woman, whose babies they supposedly were, this Michelle who she was babysitting for.
I mean talk about the level of sophistication and effort that was going into put out this perfect little picture of her and her children and
this woman who she was helping babysit her kids. Instead of just taking care of these children, instead of just cleaning up the house, she was
going through all of this effort to put out that image.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: How are you babysitting kids that never leave the house?
COOMBS: Right.
BARNETT: There are some glaring airs and holes in this story.
MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO HOST PERSONALITY: --With the babysitting.
PINSKY: But, to be fair, this woman ruined five lives.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Mom -- this is what this mom did. She killed three babies and she ruined the lives of two others. Something not so good is going to
happen, but I will tell you what I want to do next. We are going to hear from this mother`s friend. She had a friend who is shocked by all this.
And, we will hear what she thinks about this. I am wondering if she got something to say about that boyfriend. And, by the way, he is still at
large. And, later, we got a new story. This woman says police presumed she was a hooker after she says she kissed her Caucasian boyfriend in
public. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH EARLY, JR., WORCESTER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The remnants of three infants have been found in the residence. We have used diapers, in some
areas, as much as a foot-and-a-half to 2 feet high.
KEITH HALPERN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You want answers in circumstances like these, and you are hoping there is something rational. Mental illness
does not always provide those kinds of answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau, Leeann, Erica, and Judy. Now, Judy, her lawyer -- that was an interesting statement. You
hope it is not a rational premeditated thing. You hope it is mental illness. The lawyer says it is mental illness. When people live in
hoarding squalor, there can be a separate hoarding condition, but also there can be thought disturbances like schizophrenia, those sorts of
things. But, there was no -- well, Erica is shaking her head vigorously. But, Judy, I do not know of any evidence of that.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right, Dr. Drew. I actually think this is a case where mental illness is misused once again in
out legal system. I do not think she is mentally ill. I think she has low cognitive functioning or low I.Q. She does not know how to problem solve
her way out of things that are very simple. Buy some condoms. Get them free at Planned Parenthood.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: You know, what is going on here? Then there is obviously some very unhealthy ways to kind of deal with this person. This person she is
in a relationship with when he says, "I do not want to have another child."
PINSKY: OK. And, Erica, you are saying, no mental illness. I think there could be a thought disorder.
ERICA AMERICA, T.V. HOST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. No. No. No. That is not -- What I was just saying that it needs to be evaluated --
PINSKY: Right.
AMERICA: -- But, that was mental illness was not my first thing was exactly what you said, Dr. Drew, I.Q. That was my number one thing. I
think that there might be mild mental retardation here.
PINSKY: Well, that is what I thought at first too.
AMERICA: Yes. I think she took literally --
PINSKY: But, you see her expressing herself on social media pretty effectively.
AMERICA: Look, I know people like this. So, there is people that can write, "I went to the store today, and my daughter is so cute." That
does not mean you are like have high intellectual functioning, if you know what I mean.
PINSKY: Right. Right. I understand.
AMERICA: I think if that is the case, I think she took literally what her boyfriend said, "I do not want other children or I am leaving
you." And, because of that, she might have taken that like literally. The other thing I want to say is, it is hard to believe that this boyfriend did
not know about these five other children.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Exactly.
PINSKY: Oh, my God.
AMERICA: How dysfunctional this household is and how compartmentalized the communication was in this house. There is a lot
going on in this household.
PINSKY: But, Erica, I have got to remind everybody, the boyfriend has not been charged with anything except for growing pot, I guess.
SCHACHER: Right. Not yet.
PINSKY: But, I want to bring in on the phone, Nicole Canlan. She is a long-time friend of Erica Murray. She is the woman we are discussing
here. Now, Nicole, she had four children, but you did not know about the two younger ones? Is that accurate?
NICOLE CANLAN, FAMILY FRIEND OF ERICA MURRAY: Yes. I had no idea.
PINSKY: This must be shocking to you.
CANLAN: It is unbelievably shocking. I am at a loss for words. I know the entire family. I grew up literally like next door. I have seven
brothers, three sisters. She was best friends with my youngest sister. She went to the prom with my youngest brother.
PINSKY: Wow.
CANLAN: Her family is -- her father is a stand-up guy. Her mother is great to her children. This is a loving, caring, normal family.
PINSKY: Leeann, you wanted to ask a question?
TWEEDEN: Yes. Hi, Nicole, thank you for coming on. My question is, you say you live right next door. People are down the street. Her family
is around. How do you not know a woman is pregnant seven times?
CANLAN: No, we grew up with her.
TWEEDEN: So, you have not been with her recently.
CANLAN: Not in Blackstone. I did not know this was going on. Erica and I have been Facebook friends for a while, but I have not seen her, you
know, like really hung out with her. We grew up for over 20 years. I have known Erica since she was probably 6 or 7 years old.
PINSKY: Samantha.
SCHACHER: Yes. Nicole, tell us about Erica. Is she intelligent? Is she kind? Like what is her character like?
CANLAN: Yes. Yes. Her parents are wonderful people. They love their children. They love their grandchildren. No indications. This is
a normal blue collar family.
PINSKY: So, there was no intellectual short falls?
CANLAN: No.
PINSKY: Any thought that she may have sunk into mental illness recently? Is that a possibility?
CANLAN: You know, the thing is, my question is -- the big question is this boyfriend, this father of the children. I mean, how are you not aware
that she is having baby. I mean, obviously, you are having intercourse and things like that. But, who knows what he has been doing behind the scenes.
That can really affect someone when you have, you know, when you are being put down or you are not loved or you are not pretty or you are not
this. You know, you try to, you know, try to fill it with something else. I know babies are not the right thing, but her mind could have been going
in a different direction and not seen the big picture. Do you know what I mean?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. So, this is a course of in-controlling relationship, sort of like many cults sometimes, but go ahead.
CANLAN: Yes. I mean she was a normal kid, you know? She was shy. She was kind of quiet, you know?
PINSKY: Yes.
CANLAN: I think maybe she has a little bit of -- you know, low self- esteem, but other than that, she was a normal kid, you know? Normal girl, normal teenager. She never really got in trouble. Nothing like that. She
was good in school. She graduated.
PINSKY: It is still it is hard to imagine that she is had a profound effect on five lives. The two children are neglected and the three kids no
longer with us. How do you make sense of that? Then we got to move on.
CANLAN: No one knew about it, especially the family, like she would go -- they have family dinners and pretty much like I would say weekly and,
you know, for her brothers not to know, for her mother -- and she is really, really close with her mom.
PINSKY: Wow. OK. But, we will keep an eye on this. Thank you guys. Thank you panel. Thank you, Nicole for joining us. Next up, we are going
to talk about a story where this woman appears to have been mistaken for a prostitute because she was publicly kissing her white boyfriend. And,
later, a father with Asian daughters is questioned by a stranger for taking pictures of them. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She is an actress who played in the Oscar-winning film "Django Unchained" and she is mad as hell about being
detained by the LA police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIELE WATTS, FILM ACTRESS: It is not a crime to be fully clothed, showing affection on a public street in our own car. If I am within my
amendment rights, my constitutional rights to say no, unless, you are charging me with a crime, I will not be giving you my I.D. that is a right
that I stand up for, because of the shoulders that I stand on. Part of my role as a public figure is to raise awareness and be strong enough to say
and do the things that maybe people who do not have the damages that I have are not strong enough or do not have the know-how or do not have the
awareness to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Judy and Vanessa. It is our most tweeted story of the day. The actress who you just saw you there,
handcuffed by LAPD when she refused to give the officer her I.D. Someone called police to report a couple engaged in a sexual act in a car. When
the police arrived, the man handed over his I.D., but the young lady, Daniele Watts, refused. Listen to an audiotape of the incident from TMZ.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Somebody called, which means it gives me the right to be here. So, it gives me the right to identify you.
WATTS: Do you know how many times I have been called -- the cops have called just because I am black and he is white. I am just being really
honest, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Who brought up the race card?
WATTS: I am bringing it up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I said nothing about you being black.
WATTS: I have every right to be here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: And, I have every right to ask for your I.D.
WATTS: And, I have every right to say no --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: No. You do not have every right to say no.
WATTS: -- and if you like to demand it, you can take down to the court office and I can make a scene about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: No.
WATTS: And, you know what? I have a publicist and I am an actress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: I am mildly interested, but I am going to get your I.D.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, Vanessa, first of all, let us address the issue of the mixed race couple. Do you think that is what, A. Triggered the call
and B. Made this an incident.
BARNETT: I do feel like it is initially what triggered the call. I think they saw two people, a black woman, a white man. They did not --
they are not used to seeing that in their neighborhood maybe. Maybe they did not like it. Maybe they were appalled. They called the cops.
Now, going forward, I do not think initially that is where the police may be thought to take it. I think this is another case where maybe black
people take a situation with the cops a little different than white people may. We have talked about this before. The boyfriend walks up. He is
very appeasing. He is handing licenses over.
PINSKY: But, why not? Why not do that? I do not understand why not?
BARNETT: Because, I think -- let me finish. I think because she instantly felt that it was a disrespectful moment, because the police never
approached her first. In the interview that I saw with her, the police went to her boyfriend first and said, give me her license. They did not
approach her directly.
I am not saying she is right. I am saying that maybe she felt disrespectful. And, maybe it began to become a power struggle. And, then
minute you say something about your publicist, you lost all credibility. Clearly, this could have been handled differently.
Clearly, it could have been over if she handed over the I.D., but I think she thought she had a point to prove and she wanted to show, that I
do not have to say yes, because I have not done anything wrong.
PINSKY: OK. Well, Leeann, I do not understand what that is -- whenever a cop asks me anything, I just say yes, sir and do it.
TWEEDEN: Well, exactly. I mean especially if you are innocent. If you are just staying in a car --
PINSKY: But, what is this constitutional privilege she keeps talking about where she does not have to identify herself?
TWEEDEN: I do not know, Dr. Drew. If a cop asked me for -- he pulls me over and I do not know why he pulls me over and say I am not speeding
but he pulls me over and he asked for my I.D. and registration and all that, you give it to him. He is a person of authority. Hopefully they are
going to be -- come down to the bottom of it and tell you what they are pulling you over for.
Now, my question is, I read the report, but I was not sure how that person saw them that called in to the police. I mean, if somebody is
kissing in the car and you are in your seat and you are giving a kiss to say goodbye. That is one thing. Was she on top of him in his seat like --
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: Was it obscene?
PINSKY: Sam, do you know anything?
SCHACHER: From what I hear, well, she is saying that they were just kissing. From what I hear, it was hot and heavy and the bystander thought
a sex act was taking place. So, they notified the police. Whether or not that was sincere or not, we do not know. But, the police officer -- why
are people blaming him. He is doing his job. I listened to the audio.
TWEEDEN: Exactly.
SCHACHER: And, the police officer was very careful. He let her know that he was following up on a call, and just wanted to do his due
diligence, you know? Dot his Is, cross his Ts. And, I think that this has blown way out of proportion and I think the victim here is the police
officer.
PINSKY: And, Judy, People are reacting negatively to this actress, bringing up issue of publicist and sort of seemingly using this to get in a
soap box and gets more attention for herself, particularly -- on social media, particularly.
HO: Right. And, I think the soap box is actually legitimate and that she feels like this may be a race issue that she wants to talk about
it. But, the way she went about it and the way she confronted the police officer, I think that is what people has turned off to her. And, the
problem is, I think she felt helpless and that was her way of trying to take power back and say I am not going to show you my I.D.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
HO: But that just went way overboard and she could have handled this in a much better way.
TWEEDEN: The attitude.
PINSKY: All right. Next up. What is wrong with this picture? We will tell you why a stranger was suspicious about the man who took that
photo of his daughters. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Leeann, Judy and Vanessa. A father taking vacation photos of his daughters was interrupted by a stranger, who
is worried the girls were being exploited by the dad. Why did the stranger intervene? The father, Caucasian gentleman. His daughters, adopted Asian.
I believe, adopted. Sam, more on the story.
SCHACHER: Well, more on the story. The dad says that he felt that he and his family had become victims of racial profiling and it became
personal to them that day. He also said in a statement that he feels that now when he walks down the street with his daughter or daughters, that he
feels that people are looking at him in a different way.
PINSKY: You know, Judy, a friend of mine adopted an Chinese girl and she said her husband has to deal with this all the time, that people sort
of look at him. This is not the thing I am aware but apparently the parenting side, this is brought up quite a bit.
HO: That is right. I think that is the experience of a lot of people who either biologically or not come from mixed race families. Just a
couple months ago, actually, Cheerio`s had a commercial with a biracial family --
PINSKY: Yes. I know that.
HO: And, they freaked out.
PINSKY: Yes. I know that.
HO: People freaked out over it. There were tons of racist comments on the YouTube comments section. They had to disable it. But, they did
not pull their commercial and good for them. And, I think what the problem is here is that this man from homeland security was doing this see
something, say something thing that he was taught.
PINSKY: And, we promote and we always say that.
HO: Yes. We need Evy.
PINSKY: We need Evy to tell us why this guy would have done it. What Judy is telling us is accurate that the guy who confronted the dad was
somebody from Homeland Security. I have the dad on the phone. His name is Jeff Gates. Jeff, thanks for joining us. Now, you actually sort of
defended yourself to the man who interrupted your photo session with your daughters, yes?
JEFF GATES, DAD QUESTIONED FOR PHOTOGRAPHING DAUGHTERS: Well, when he first approached us, he actually started talking directly to my daughters
and said he would be remiss if he did not ask if they were OK. And, I did not understand at first what he was saying. So, I finally said to him,
"Well, I am their father."
And, suddenly it occurred to me what he thought might be going on. Afterwards, I mean, that sort of ended the photo shoot. And, we went
inside with my wife and then I thought -- I saw him outside and I thought I want to find more. I want to find out a little bit more context as to how
this happened. So, I went out and talked to him, and he immediately he worked at the Department of Homeland Security and that my -- he said let me
give you some advice --
PINSKY: Wow.
GATES: -- which was not advice at all. He said, you were photographing those girls hugging for 15 minutes. Now, first of all, as a
photographer, 15 minutes is nothing, and I am a photographer. Second of all, it was not really hugging. It is like when you take a picture --
PINSKY: Well, Jeff, we are looking at the pictures as they grew up on this same cruise where you are finally confronted.
GATES: Right.
PINSKY: Leeann, you have a question for Jeff?
TWEEDEN: Yes. Jeff, I mean I know it was very traumatic. I read your story about what happened and I feel for you. But did you -- were you
able to take this and use it as a learning moment with your daughters? Because -- If you put yourself in his shoes, we are taught in this post
9/11 World, if you see something, say something. I mean do you feel for him a little bit where he is coming from?
GATES: First of all, the interaction was very nuanced. And, we are not prepared for the very shades of gray to really look at them. But yes,
I did use it as a teaching moment. I said to my older daughter, let us look at people in the way that this man was looking at us, and so I was
able -- I was able to do that.
The thing is, I got a lot of letters from people who said they work at the Department of Homeland Security and said that if this guy indeed was
an agent, he was not properly trained because observing somebody for 15 minutes is just way short of time.
PINSKY: And, Jeff, I am really -- Do you have a comment, Vanessa before I go --
BARNETT: No. I just want to say I am happy that you are sharing this story, because racial profiling is real. And, I feel like, nowadays,
we live in this knee jerk reaction, where you see something, say something. But not every situation deserves that and not everything is a Liam Neeson
movie. So, I am glad you are speaking out.
PINSKY: Right. And, Jeff, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. We are getting a teaching moment here from you. "Forensic Files" up
now.
END
