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Dr. Drew
Nationwide Manhunt for Runaway Mom; Extreme Hoarders Harming Themselves and Others; The Difference Between A Normal Brain And A Killer`s Brain; Police Find Body in Recycling Bin; Autumn Pasquale`s Parents heartbroken; High School Shame Suit
Aired September 17, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, CNN HOST: Tonight, is it a crime to raise a killer? The father of this girl says yes. He`s suing the parents of the teen who
strangled her. Plus, the shame suit. A teen says she was forced to wear this because her skirt was too short. So she took to Facebook to tell her
side of the story. She and her mom are here. Let`s get started.
Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacker. New information about NFL star Adrian Peterson who reportedly admitted to beating his four-year old
son with a switch. He calls this "discipline."
SAMANTHA SCHACKER, CNN CO-HOST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. And the Vikings have changed their minds overnight changing his one game suspension to an
indefinite one.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Now, there`s new allegations as well, Sam, that he injured another child. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Adrian Peterson benched again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The professional football star called it a whooping, using the thin tree branch ten to 15 times.
NICK WRIGHT: As a father, I`m telling you right now, I don`t see this as child abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nick Wright is a sports radio talk show host in Houston. Wright says the little boy told police he was scared of his
father.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His intent. He didn`t mean to do this to the point that he did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy talked about his father putting leaves in his mouth while he was lashed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I have to live with the fact that when I disciplined my son the way I was disciplined as a child, I caused an injury that I
never intended or thought would happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of Tomboys podcast on Black Talk Radio, Kayleigh McEnany, political commentator,
Karamo Brown, host of #ownshow on Oprah.com.
So, he`s admitted to discipline. Kayleigh, I`ve not heard your opinion on all this yet. Does it make any difference what we call this?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, it doesn`t make any difference what we call this. And the NFL or the Vikings, I should say,
are right in suspending him. He hit his child ten to 15 times. The pictures, there are lacerations a week after the incident. I mean this is
horrific. And I`m so glad to see that Vikings suspend him indefinitely. That`s undoubtedly what he deserved.
PINSKY: Karamo, you shake your head "No."
KARAMO BROWN, TV HOST: Yeah, I don`t believe that he should be out of the game. They suspended him for one game. I understand possibly, but taking
him out, no, not at all. I don`t think this is child abuse. I`ve said it before. His intent was not to abuse this child and I do not believe that.
And I`m telling you as a father, I see a lot of kids that lack discipline. And he - this - yeah, I`m going to stop right there.
PINSKY: All right, Kayleigh, go ahead. Respond to that.
MCENANY: OK. Are we - I think the question is, are we a society that condones beating your child with a tree branch or not? I think the answer
is no. We are not a society that condones that, and definitely .
PINSKY: OK, and Sam. Well, the laws certainly don`t, Sam. You reacted to this physically, I saw you were .
SAMANTHA SCHACKER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: OK. Yes. I mean Karamo, I mean I love you, but at the end of the day, if this isn`t - if you don`t see this
as abuse, how do you define abuse? I see a child that has these thick, open bleeding gashes on his testis, on his anus, on his inner thighs. And
listen - I get it. I believe that Adrian Peterson loved his children. I believe that he was disciplining the kid the way that he was disciplined
and mimicking that behavior. But that doesn`t make it right.
BROWN: Well, then, and Sam, if you agree with me, then you know that if he loved his child, then it was his intent - it wasn`t his intent to abuse his
child. He was disciplining his child.
PINSKY: What if he went too far and knocked the kid`s leg off?
SCHACKER: It doesn`t matter, exactly.
PINSKY: OK. Or open his testis with .
LEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I`m sorry- what was the intent of grabbing a switch? What about spanking him with his hand? I mean there
obviously was intent to harm the child. Now, Dr. Drew, I got to say it as a sports caster, I think the Vikings got it right. Now, this morning,
during the press conference, the owner said, "It`s never too late to get it right. And I think with the last week in the NFL and look, I talked to my
friends at the NFL network this morning, it`s been hell on the NFL this past week, OK? It`s been a tough couple of weeks, and I think what`s
happening, it`s that the people are finally speaking. And the people in Minnesota, you know what, when the mayor came out and said he should be
suspended, he should not play. Because you know what? That same governor last year approved state funds, which is taxpayer dollars, for their new
stadium. So when people are mad, they have to go where the money is. And the money is with the people.
PINSKY: And team officials held a news conference, during which they admitted they had made a mistake or trying to correct it as Leeann reports.
But then a reporter asked this. And Karamo, I have you respond to it, go ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are any of you up there at the podium willing to apologize to the mother and the son in this situation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, our focus is to get things right. And we support Adrian in the terms of -- on the personal level that he has to get
his personal life in order and get things right.
PINSKY: Enough, Karamo, don`t they need - Doesn`t the mom deserve an apology from the NFL too, not just the kid?
BROWN: No.
PINSKY: Not just Adrian?
BROWN: Not at all, Dr. Drew. The NFL is worried about their bottom line. They are worried about money. That is the only reason they are having this
press conference.
PINSKY: Doesn`t that disturb you? The kid - that the kid comes second, money comes first?
BROWN: Well, no, it doesn`t disturb me that - well, it does disturb me that the kid comes second, and money comes first. But I`m saying that in
the fact of this being child abuse, I just still do not see it. When - it`s for me, there`s cultural differences. And that`s what`s playing here.
When Leeann said why did he get a switch? That is something that we`ve all heard of before within the African-American community.
TWEEDEN: No.
BROWN: And I`m not justifying it --
TWEEDEN: That doesn`t make it right, Karamo.
BROWN: Well, but I`m telling you, this is what happens. And for me, it is not child abuse. Because the intent of him getting a switch was not to
beat his child into a bloody pulp.
TWEEDEN: Karamo.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He did go too far.
TWEEDEN: Karamo, he had cuts on his genitals. What do you call that?
SCHACKER: Can we squash the whole intent argument? Because pedophiles have the intent to love on kids, too. It doesn`t make it right, Karamo, at
the end of the day.
PINSKY: Oh, Sam, what if we .
SCHACKER: Just because it`s cultural, it doesn`t mean we should repeat history anyhow.
PINSKY: Or what if we lived in a society where we ate children for breakfast? That`s just what we are doing. It`s our culture. We`ve always
done it, and so, you know, who are you to say, Kayleigh, who are you to say it`s not OK to do that?
MCENANY: Yeah, that`s right. And it`s so disturbing to me to see the attorneys come out and try to spend this as a cultural issue. To spank or
not to spank. This is not. This was not reasonable behavior. You grabbed a stick and you beat this child who had lacerations. As you all have
acknowledged. This is not spank or no spank. This is beating a child to a pulp or not.
TWEEDEN: But Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, Leeann, go ahead.
TWEEDEN: Dr. Drew, there`s also a report coming out now that last year a mother of another child that he`s fathered.
PINSKY: Oh, we are going to get into that. We are going to get into that.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: OK. But that has come out. So, there`s a history there that he`s been beating his children.
PINSKY: Well, I just want - I want Karamo to try - try to help me understand, because I really do try to understand all of this. What then
is abuse? And what - how do we understand it? I`ll tell you how I understand it. I understand when a child loses trust of the people who say
they love them, when you, by the way, when you use a kid and say you love them, it`s more damaging, it`s more confusing to them. How can love and
pain go together? How is that possible? So, that`s more traumatic for the child, number one. And then number two, where is that line? I put it at
terror. If the child is experiencing terror or what do we say, bodily integrity is violated, is that OK with you?
BROWN: Well, Dr. Drew, any child, if they`re going to be spanked or however you want to put it, you know, "spank", whatever nice term you want
to wrap it up in.
PINSKY: Yeah.
BROWN: ... is going to feel terror. They`re going to feel terror when you discipline them, when you raise your voice. I think again, and I know
that Sam, she wants to squash the intent word, but it`s the intent behind this. I do not believe he intended to abuse his child.
SCHACKER: But he did it.
BROWN: He did it and he acknowledged that he went too far.
PINSKY: It was not my intent to kill people when I went in to rob the bank, but it happened.
TWEEDEN: Exactly. And you know what, for once Al Franken got it right. Al Franken said this is bigger than a football game. And that he is very
true on that.
PINSKY: Leave it there. I want a break in the behavior bureau. They`ll weigh in and later, should this - interesting story - should parents go to
jail if the child turns out to be a killer? Can we - How far do we go in holding parents responsible? You`ll meet the father who thinks this is a
very reasonable thing. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: There`s new details of text messages Peterson allegedly sent the boy`s mother in Minnesota after the lashing. "Got him in the nuts once I
noticed. But I felt so bad, n I`m all tearing that butt up when needed. I start putting them in timeout. N save the whooping for needed memories.
He felt bad after the fact when I noticed the switch was wrapping around hitting thigh. "
Back with Sam in our behavior bureau, Jen Berman, psychotherapist, executive producer of VH1`s "Couple`s Therapy" with Dr. Jen Berman. Erica
America, psychotherapist and TV host, and Jennifer Keitt joins us, life coach. And we`re talking about Adrian Peterson and his so-called
disciplining of his four-year-old son. And Sam, as mentioned -- somebody mentioned in the last block, Peterson has other children. You`ve got some
details on that.
SCHACKER: Yes, according to one of the mothers of his children, she`s alleging that he`s had up to seven kids. And just last year, Dr. Drew, he
learned of an additional child, a two-year-old boy. He went and visited that child for the first time while the kid was in a hospital and later
died at that hospital allegedly due to the hands of the mother`s boyfriend. Very tragic story. And then recently he gave an interview on ESPN. He was
asked to comment about a secret child. Well, according to ESPN, he didn`t actually answer that question. Instead he gave them this quote, "I know
the truth and I`m comfortable with it."
PINSKY: So Sam, the child that was killed at the hands of the .
SCHACKER: Mother`s boyfriend.
PINSKY: Mother`s boyfriend.
SCHACKER: Yes.
PINSKY: Did he love the child? He didn`t intend to kill him? So, it`s OK?
SCHACKER: I know, right. I know.
PINSKY: Is that what we are saying here?
SCHACKER: We`ve got to squash that intent thing.
PINSKY: Jennifer, do you understand where I`m going with this? How do we reconcile these things?
JENNIFER KEITT, RADIO HOST & LIFECOACH: I know it`s hard to do, but I have to - you have to weigh in what he was thinking. Now, let me say this.
PINSKY: But what about the guy who killed this kid? What about the guy that killed the kid in disciplining the child, loving the child so much,
oops, I made a mistake, I made a mistake. I killed him. Oh-oh.
KEITT: I absolutely understand. Could he have achieved the same goals and objectives, Dr. Drew, by taking something like a switch and popping the kid
on the hand or popping him on the thigh one or two times? Absolutely. He didn`t do that. He lost control. I agree with you. It is egregious. He
did something. He went out of control. But I will tell you this, taking away those kid`s father is not the solution. He is a father. He is
engaged. Even if we don`t agree with the way that he`s engaged, he is engaged and we should give him credit for that.
PINSKY: All right. Yeah.
KEITT: So, maybe it`s .
(CROSSTALK)
JENN BERMAN, PH.D., PHSYCHOTHERAPIST: He`s abusing and neglecting his children. That`s not much of a father at all. I`m all for him getting
educated about actually what it takes to parent a child, but there`s a huge theme of abuse and neglect and these poor seven children, either they are
getting neglected or they are getting beaten.
PINSKY: Well, but how . KEITT: Absolutely not.
PINSKY: But Jennifer has a point. I mean is there - is there not - I mean we`re all about treatment, we`re all about redemption. All of us.
KEITT: Thank you.
PINSKY: What about bringing his guy?
KEITT: He`s not a criminal. He is not -he`s able to make a living for those kids. He`s able to pay for them to do and have what they need to
have. I don`t care how many there are. Do you know how many fathers are not even involved?
BERMAN: Parenting is about more than just providing money for your children. And I think he needs to be educated.
I think he doesn`t know better because it was the way he was treated.
KEITT: OK. But putting him in jail, making him a criminal is not going to do that.
PINSKY: Look at this.
And here`s my point, and Erica, I`ll have you comment about this. Adrian`s childhood friend told "USA Today" that one time after Adrian misbehaved
when he was in middle school, so this is the father that was doing the disciplining of now the -- Adrian Peterson`s father disciplining him when
he was in middle school. The father took a belt, beat him right outside of the school in front of 20 other kids. So Erica, that`s my point. It`s not
-- forget the fact that it`s normative, it`s intra-generational transmission of trauma.
ERICA AMERICA: Yeah.
PINSKY: And it will just keep going until you break that cycle.
ERICA AMERICA, TV HOST: Absolutely. I mean you always have to put, you know, empathy I always talk about - put yourself in the person`s shoes, how
did they grow up. What`s normative to them like you just said? And even I understand where Karamo is coming from. I also understand where Sam is
coming from. So, I think and I also agree with what Dr. Jenn said, the first thing that came to my mind was, if this is the first offense, he
needs parenting classes. He really needs to know, because maybe the education isn`t fully there. That he loves his children, but he`s trying
to show them right and wrong, and it`s not with hitting someone a number of times with a stick. That`s not how to do it. But maybe because his dad
humiliated him, and he had this traumatic experience like you said, Dr. Drew, that`s how he`s continuing the cycle. He needs to learn.
BERMAN: He was abused, and so he abuses his child.
PINSKY: Sam.
SCHACKER: Yes. In an idea world, he needles to have intense treatment and counseling and adopt some new disciplinary action. And I hope that
happens. Because I don`t want to see him separated from his children.
PINSKY: There`s .
SCHACKER: But Dr. Drew, his children need to have counseling too, so that they don`t repeat the cycle.
PINSKY: OK, so let me - We`re all going to respond to that. That`s a great thing to get to, next. But I just quickly forward to you, I want to
talk about how people who have been traumatized themselves, how their brain responds. The parts - emotional parts of the brain that experience that
trauma, in order to survive it, actually, wall off - the wiring gets separated from the rest of the brain. So people who have been abused like
Adrian Peterson was, will say it wasn`t so bad. I needed it. It was good for me. Look how great I am now. Not having any physical, let alone
emotional contact with that part of the brain, where that trauma occurred. When we see these people in treatment, we have to get them back connected
and literally wired back to those bodily based and emotional experiences that are associated with the trauma, because big parts of self-get walled
off and only off -expressed, either don`t get expressed, and people go to primitive means to regulate like drugs and alcohol, which is what I see all
the time. Or they act it out. That part of them acts out violently on their children. Just like we see here. So the question, Sam, is asking -
and I`ll go to Jenn first on this. What would we do if we were to see this little boy in treatment a few years later? How would we help this kid who
would came to us, now he`s doing drugs or now he`s acting out violently and he says I was disciplined. I needed it. It was good for me and it was not
big deal. I don`t think about it anymore. How do we deal with that kid?
KEITT: You know, Dr. Drew, I mean I don`t know that he would go necessarily go down that pathway if it did happen, God forbid that if did
happen, then you would have to treat it according to the methodologies that you have outlined. But people who have those kinds of problems, but Dr.
Drew, I was beat as a child. And it did not sociologically or physiologically or any kind of way put me into a state in which I was not
able to be a productive citizen.
PINSKY: No, no. I didn`t say that.
KEITT: I don`t (INAUDIBLE).
BERMAN: Despite the fact that you were beat, not because you were beat. And that you were able to overcome .
KEITT: No, no.
BERMAN: But that`s not necessarily the norm.
KEITT: It was not that. That was a part of my parenting -- my parent`s tool chest. You cannot take away that from parents. I`m sorry. You
cannot do that.
BERMAN: I disagree with you.
KEITT: Because it doesn`t meet your norms.
PINSKY: Erica?
KEITT: And I disagree with you.
BERMAN: All the research shows.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: One at a time. One at a time. One at a time.
Erica?
AMERICA: What I see unfolding here is really what Karamo mentioned earlier. It`s a real cultural difference what we are discussing here right
now. We are saying that .
KEITT: Thank you.
AMERICA: People who had it happen to them is saying this worked for me and I`m going to probably do it, maybe it`s my own children, maybe not, but it
happened to me and I`m OK.
PINSKY: Erica, the problem is - but the problem is, I hear the same - I hear the same thinking, which I don`t disagree with Jennifer, Jennifer is
right for her work, but the problem is, it`s not necessarily going to result in trouble, but when there is trouble later, you always find that
heritage. So it`s risky. When I talk to people that are in prison.
AMERICA: Right.
PINSKY: I always find this. When I talk to my drug addicts, I always find this. And by the way, I have to like ring the history out of them, because
they`re in such denial, so detached from it, that they don`t even remember it happened. But we have got to leave it right there. Next up, I got the
father of a girl who was strangled suing her killer`s parents. Maybe they`ll tell us why. And later, the suit of shame. Hear from the teen who
says she was forced to wear this because her skirt was a little too short at school. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body of a 12-year-old Autumn Pasquale was found in a blue recycling bin like this in front of the house just blocks away
from her own home in Clayton New Jersey. Her BMX bike and backpack were also found here. Two teenage brothers who live in the house have now been
charged with her murder. Investigators say they killed her for her bike. The prosecutor says their own mother turned them in after noticing
something on their Facebook page. The 12-year-old was last seen Saturday afternoon heading to her friend`s house on her bike. Those who know the 15
and 17-year-old brothers say the younger one was obsessed with bikes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Kayleigh and joining us Mike Catherwood, my cohost from Loveline on the radio. And also, check your local listings and
see it on the Loveline show.com Website. Also, 15-year-old boy, Justin Johnson pleaded guilty - excuse me, Justin Robinson, pleaded guilty to
strangling Autumn. Autumn`s father has filed a wrongful death suit against Justin`s mother and father claiming that if they had been better parents
his daughter would be alive today. And Sam, Facebook played a role in the story, as well.
SCHACKER: It did, Dr. Drew. It was the mother that turned her son Justin into the police after reportedly noticing a very bizarre post on his
Facebook page. It said, "Might be moving" with a sad face emoticon, and then Justin was arrested. But then the community turned on his mother
because he had a laundry list of run-ins with the law. And people begin to question her parenting. Then mom defended herself on Facebook with this
post, "Those of you who really know me know what kind of parent I am. So interesting to hear and see how people are judgmental." Now she`s facing
the civil lawsuit from Autumn`s dad.
PINSKY: And I will actually speak with Autumn`s dad in just a minute. He`s going to - you know, the question here, though, is if you`re going to
have a murderer in your family or raise a murderer, so to speak, should you take responsibility for that. Leeann?
TWEEDEN: You know, Dr. Drew, I think this is a really tough question, because I don`t think any parent raises a murderer. OK? And you can raise
a kid right. There are kids that have been raised right, if you want to put quotes around that, and they`ve gone on to murder or they`ve gone up
the rails, and they`ve done bad things. Sometimes, you know, I think parents do with what the resources and the knowledge they have. Maybe the
mom, she was abused, it sounds like, in her marriage. She probably didn`t know where to turn, she probably was working full-time to care for those
two kids. So, I don`t think he has a case, because I don`t think you could put it in one little - I don`t think you can put neatly into one bag and
blame every parent of every killer.
PINSKY: Well, and Kayleigh to be fair, we don`t know what kind of treatment was attempted. We don`t know what source of resources may have
failed this, but what do you feel about holding parents more accountable? This is a civil suit, not a criminal suit, I remind you.
MCENANY: Right. Right. So, the parent has a duty to ensure that their child is not a danger to society. Now, when they are negligent and the
supervision of that child which to me, looking at the facts of this case, it seems like this mother was in fact, negligent, then they`re liable. I`m
sorry, you know, this mother - this kid - she knew he had a neurological disorder. He had several runnings with the law. You have a duty to ensure
your child cannot strangle another human being. She failed at that duty.
PINSKY: Now, according to Justin Robinson`s court-appointed psychologist, he`s reportedly to have had a low IQ, diagnosed with attention deficit
disorder, hyperactivity, post- traumatic stress, generalized anxiety, somatic symptoms disorder. Prosecution, Mike, says that he was beaten and
witnessed domestic violence. That must be where the post- traumatic stress comes in. Isn`t that enough to hold the parents accountable?
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S LOVELINE`S CO-HOST: Well, you know, you`ve also got to think like he looks like- kind of like an adult because he`s a
bigger kid. But a 15-year-old is a child. And there`s a reason why kids aren`t allowed to drive until they turn 15 and 16. And it`s not because
they are not physically capable. It`s because they don`t have judgment. They don`t have the ability to reason and understand what`s right and
wrong. It`s certainly not at a fast pace. And I feel like when you say you don`t raise a murderer, I don`t feel like a 15-year-old consciously
decides to do these things. He`s a product of this environment, and I don`t think he`s crazy for the parents to be held accountable.
PINSKY: OK, so he was around domestic violence. Is that sufficient to hold the parents accountable?
CATHERWOOD: Sure.
PINSKY: He was physically abused, here we go with that again. Is that enough to hold the parents accountable?
CATHERWOOD: Sure.
PINSKY: All right. The lawsuit filed by Autumn`s family alleges Justin didn`t receive "proper treatment and proper supervision." And that his
parents should have known that "he posed a risk to third parties." Sam?
SCHACKER: You know, well, it`s not only that, Dr. Drew, and believe me, I see both sides, I get where you`re coming from, Leeann, it`s very
controversial, but I think it should be looked at in a case by case basis. And in this situation this child had learned behaviors of strangling. He
used to witness his father strangle his mother. And then that`s how he killed poor Autumn. He strangled her. So, perhaps if he never witnessed
that, perhaps if they put him into treatment and (CROSSTALK). None of this would have happened. So, if I was that parent, I would get it.
PINSKY: Leeann, hold on, at the sentencing for Justin Robinson, his mother reportedly told the court, "It was the system that failed him. Even though
he`s a special education student, Justin was not given the type and amount of help that he needed." Leeann, is it the system or is it the parents?
TWEEDEN: You know, I think it`s both, probably, Dr. Drew.
SCHACKER: Yes.
TWEEDEN: because obviously this is a child that that mother could not help on her own. We talk about these people all the time who have multiple
disorders. I mean I`m not a doctor, but we talk about it on this show all the time, Dr. Drew, and we talk about help that is either needed and not
given or not - there`s not enough, you know, there`s not enough money or enough doctors or enough, you know, situations for the kids to go into.
But look, on the dad`s website it said, "If the minor who murdered my daughter was properly treated, parented, disciplined and supervised, my
daughter would probably be alive today."
PINSKY: All right.
TWEEDEN: Probably is the key word, because if he did get all of that stuff that doesn`t mean that he wouldn`t kill her.
CATHERWOOD: Listen, obviously supervision had to be a problem, because he had time to murder someone and dispose of the body.
TWEEDEN: The mom was working.
CATHERWOOD: I couldn`t masturbate for one minute in my bedroom without my mom walking in. And I don`t even - I mean she just had it with her sixth
sense that I was doing - I was up to something bad. How did they guy have the ability to murder someone .
PINSKY: Or otherwise you would have been a murderer.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right, now, now, I see both sides of this case. Here`s my thing, is that the fact that there was domestic violence in the home and
that the kid was physically abused to me is enough to hold the parents accountable. But not every parent that has a child as a killer can be held
accountable. I want to show you guys the difference between a normal brain and a killer`s brain. This is something we have discussed before the show.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Brain scans of a normal person. So, these yellow and red areas are nice hot brain activity. Again, this is normal. And, then here is Jim
Fallon`s -- Dr. Fallon`s brain. You see this blue area out here, which is called the frontal cortex, the orbital frontal system. These are the front
part of the brain not working so well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is this part. That is the part I always hold up. It is the part we talk about does not work so well with teenagers, but there is
multiple other issues in the -- what is called psychopathic brain. And, a psychopathic brain is something that is genetically set up. Sometimes
environment has a role, but for the most part that is a murderer that is born, Sam.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Right. Yes.
PINSKY: And, that is something you cannot hold parents accountable for, although they maybe supervised officially. Maybe they are in denial about
having a psychopathic kid. They should be more attentive. I know, but Sam what do you say.
SCHACHER: Yes. We need more brain lessons, just like that with long stick, Dr. Drew, because I had no idea to see that, you know, in those
images and the discrepancies, #morebrainlessons.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew, can just say one thing. I feel so bad for Mr. Pasquale. I mean, obviously, nothing is going to make
his daughter come back to life.
PINSKY: I know. Yes.
TWEEDEN: But, you know, he talks about the parenting on their end. Can I just make one comment about his parenting? If he would have taught his
daughter that maybe not everybody is a safe person and do not trust everyone, then maybe she would not have gone to a house with somebody that
she had just acquaintance with and did not really know.
PINSKY: Well, OK. We will talk to him in fact right after this break. He is here with us. And, later, is this appropriate punishment for violating
school dress code? Social media response to this issue goes viral, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Exactly one week after she was first reported missing. Autumn Pasquale`s parents prepared to bury their little 12-year-
old daughter. Monday night, investigators found her body in a recycling bin in the backyard of the home where the teen brothers accused of the
murder lived. And, friends and neighbours identified the brothers as 15- year-old Justin Robinson`and 17-year-old Dante Robinson.
Autumn disappeared last Saturday from her Clayton home. Prosecutors claimed, she was lured into the suspect`s house over parts to her BMX
Bicycle. Autumn Pasquale would have turned 13 on Monday; but instead of planning a birthday party, her parents are now dealing with the heartache
and pain that comes with burying a child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Such a sad story.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Back with our Behaviour Bureau. Jenn, Erica, Jennifer. Justin Robinson admitted he lured Autumn Pasquale into his home and strangled her
there. Autumn`s father is suing his mom and his dad. He says, the 12- year-old daughter would be alive today if they had been better parents. I will speak with Anthony in just a second. Jennifer, valid lawsuit or
misdirected grief retribution, what do you say?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Misdirected, because we have not determined what actual attributes constitute a good parent. It is way too vague.
And, you cannot say that because of these set of actions or inactions, this is the absolute result. And, I think it is a dangerous precedent to set.
PINSKY: And, Jenn, her point is well taken, right?
JENN BERMAN, PH.D., LICENSED PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes.
PINSKY: There is certain genetic --
BERMAN: Jennifer and I actually agree on that.
PINSKY: OK. There you go. There are genetic features and environmental figures, but very hard to say what --
BERMAN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: -- Somebody should be necessarily held accountable for.
BERMAN: And, it is a slippery slope when it comes to parenting, because you can say, "OK. Well, this person was an attachment parent and I do not
like the way their kid turned out. They committed a crime. Let us sue those parents."
PINSKY: Yes.
BERMAN: And, obviously, this is an extreme case, but I think it is too slippery a slope. Any parent who abuses or neglects their child absolutely
should be prosecuted, but I am uncomfortable with this, such a slippery slope.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Erica, how much neglect is neglect? Is it just neglect if you do not have proper attachment as Jenn is saying?
ERICA AMERICA, T.V. HOST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. I agree. But, first, I want to say I can appreciate where they are coming from. They want to find
some culpability for the murder of their daughter.
PINSKY: Me too. Me too.
AMERICA: It is an absolute horrible thing.
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: But, in this case, it is too slippery of a slope. Unfortunately, we cannot find a murderer who is 55 and go back to their 90-year-old
parents and say, "Lets us bring them to jail, because they have had kid involved in a murder."
PINSKY: Well, it is not criminal. They are not pursuing a criminal act, Erica. They are pursuing a civil action.
AMERICA: Yes, if they could do that so they could do a civil with that. Why could not they do a civil with that? It is just we cannot show it. It
is got to be a case by case basis --
SCHACHER: And, Dr. Drew, I know that is your favorite term, slippery slope. You hate that term.
PINSKY: I hate it. The first time I have heard it is from an attorney.
AMERICA: If you look at a case like Adam Lanza whose mother gave him guns --
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: I want to hold her accountable.
AMERICA: That is a little bit different. So, I think it has to be --
PINSKY: Or maybe if these people are successful. I am going to talk to Mr. Pasquale in just a second. But, maybe he is successful, we will set a
precedent and the slippery slope will go the other direction and we will see better parenting or people will be more attentive in their parenting or
understanding that there is other consequences than just on their children.
Let us talk to him. On the phone I got Anthony Pasquale. He is Autumn`s father. Kathleen Bonczyk is his attorney. She is with me as well. First,
Anthony, the story is just tragic beyond belief. So, you know, our pleas, our sorrow and our prayers go out to you and your family. But, let us talk
about this case. Did you actually know your daughter`s killer?
ANTHONY PASQUALE, AUTUMN`S FATHER: I did not know my daughter`s killers. I was a mailman for 15 years in my small town of Clayton. I knew all of
them, but I did not know them well enough.
PINSKY: And, your case is -- we want to make sure we are not misdating what your allegations are, that Justin saw domestic violence in his home
including choking and that he, himself, was the object of some violence. Is that right?
PASQUALE: Correct. You have to understand, Justin is a product of FAS, which is Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and, you know, that comes with behavioral
issues, learning behaviors. So, the parents knew this. The know this. They need to take it the next step further is that they need to seek help
for him and to seek medical attention, if needed. And, he needed to be supervised.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes. Anthony, do you know to what degree they did seek help for him? Was he in counselling? Did he have any sort of treatment or
medication administered?
PASQUALE: I do not know any details of their well beings. You know -- no, I do not know.
PINSKY: Jenn, in part of your slippery slope argument, is not it interesting that we do hold parents accountable for in utero when the mom
is pregnant, exposure to alcohol and drugs. The Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is also a part of the parents` responsibility, is it not?
BERMAN: Absolutely. Lately, I cannot comment on that. I am not a lawyer, but I do think -- look, we know that, that affects children. It affects
their well-being. It affects their ability to think, their level of violence, all that sort of stuff. And, it is incredibly unfortunate and
this is just so, so heartbreaking. But, what concerns me is we are all imperfect parents.
PINSKY: Right. No. I get it.
BERMAN: And, where is that line?
PINSKY: We get it, but I just want to hear what Anthony is position is. Anthony, you started an organization called change.org, which is the
campaign for Autumn`s law. Please tell us about that.
PASQUALE: Yes. It is on Change.Org and it is a petition for negligent and abusive parents. And, it is to, you know, bring awareness to Autumn`s law
and to hold all parents accountable for criminal matters. A parent, you know, we do hold that responsibility. Justin`s parents, they needed to go
a little bit further and I believe that they did not get the help they needed.
PINSKY: All right, guys. Thank you, Anthony. It is a tragedy that you cannot even imagine as a parent.
SCHACHER: No.
PINSKY: All right. We are going to switching gears, again. Next up, this student says she was forced to wear a shame suit, so-called. There it is.
The school says, it was just disciplining her. Who do you believe? Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This teen says her first week at a new high school was ruined when she was reportedly forced to wear this so-called
"Shame Suit," after violating a dress code policy. The 15-year-old sophomore took to Instagram to vent and share the alleged photo of the
skirt deemed too short.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIRANDA LARKIN, FORCED TO WEAR "SHAME SUIT": This is the outfit I got dress coded for. They told me my skirt was too short.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: School officials say the purpose was not to humiliate, but the teen`s outraged mom is not buying it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIANNA LARKIN, MIRANDA`S MOTHER: My problem is with shaming kids. I do not believe that is an actual punishment. I do not think there is any
educational value to shaming or humiliating children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Mike and Jennifer. The shame suit is a neon yellow t-shirt paired bright red sweatpants and blazed with the dress
code violation. Mike, I am going to make you wear that all the time not just for how you dress, but for how you behave. But, anyway, Leeann, the
school insists they were not trying to humiliate the student. What do you say?
TWEEDEN: Well, first of all, you know, I am a rule follower. If the rules say you cannot wear a skirt that is more than three inches above your knee,
she broke the rules. Now, I have a problem with the school is saying there are three options if you break the rules.
The girl was saying she only got the option to put on the silly looking outfit, which humiliated her. And, the other case that I have is that, you
know, a superintendent was quoted -- I think it is the superintended -- or a school person was quoted in one of the stories I have read is the reason
why we have a dress code is so it does not distract other students from learning and things that you are supposed to do in school. But I have no
idea what this is supposed to do, because it seems like this is going to be the opposite of that.
PINSKY: Well -- now, according to the mom, the teen was just relocated from Seattle to Florida, just one week earlier. And, the incident happened
on --
MIKE CATHERWOOD, DR. DREW`S LOVELINE CO-HOST: That trauma enough.
PINSKY: Well it is her third day -- Right. I know.
SCHACHER: Florida.
PINSKY: It is her thirds day of school. But Jennifer, they only gave her -- they claim they gave her three choices, which was basically going home
and changing clothes or wearing those shame suit or I think there is a third choice. But, did not she is --
TWEEDEN: And, school claim that --
PINSKY: -- some kind of school suspensions. But, Jennifer, it just seems kind of weird that a brand new student, who did not know the rules. They
are not going to give her a warning? Do you think or do you feel they are right?
KEITT: Exactly.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: This was humiliating.
SCHACHER: yes.
KEITT: I cannot even believe that. I would have been horrified for her, especially as a young woman. I am not saying that it would have been
better if it had been a boy; but I am saying that as a woman, especially, you are being humiliated and you are the new student on the block. I can
tell you this. My kids went to private school and so we had dress code all the time, and my kids have spent time in detention and I have had to go and
send them and give them extra clothes.
CATHERWOOD: And, then hit them with a switch.
KEITT: So, I completely understand those processes -- OK. OK. Who said that?
PINSKY: Mike. Not me. Not me.
KEITT: That is not fair.
CATHERWOOD: You said it.
SCHACHER: Put mike in an outfit.
KEITT: OK. But, you know what? They did go to a school, as a matter of fact in which I did give the permission for paddling, because that is a
value. So, I do not want to start that here --
PINSKY: Interesting. I will tell you what, Jennifer. I will tell you what, though. I guarantee you. Mike`s parents were called a few times
about him.
CATHERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: Would it have been better if they just had you wear clothes or something instead of calling you out? Would you have been affected
positively? Do not you think?
CATHERWOOD: I know. But, listen, first off, no one that is an administrator at a public school has the ability to adjudicate someone`s
style. Most of the people that worked as principals and vice principals at my high school really had terrible style and they had no business telling
people how to dress. Secondly, that is not a shame suit. A shame suit is what Sam used to wear coming out of frat houses in college.
SCHACHER: OK. Surprise. Surprise. I never went to a frat house. But, Dr. Drew, can we talk about the story here, because I think it is such --
CATHERWOOD: You do not remember it?
SCHACHER: -- Hey. Hey! I think it is such primitive thinking. I mean what is this, the scarlet letter, to shame and humiliate a student.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Right.
SCHACHER: And, Dr. Drew, I done it.
PINSKY: You know, I remember reading the scarlet letter in high school and talking about how outlandish it was.
SCHACHER: The Adults are being bullied.
TWEEDEN: Do not wear a short skirt to a school that do not allow it, period.
CATHERWOOD: All kidding aside.
SCHACHER: But, it should not be humiliating, Leeann.
CATHERWOOD: All kidding aside. Are not we always kind of shock in a certain parts of the world when they force women to wear certain types of
clothing --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
CATHERWOOD: Because they do not want them to expose themselves in a certain way. I do not see that being this far away from that. It is
wrong.
PINSKY: Right. So, Miranda`s mom says, this had no value, whatsoever. She and Miranda are here after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: It was 15-year-old Miranda Larkin`s story that caught the attention of parents nationwide. Some of them supported
the school`s punishment for violating the dress code. Others agree with the sophomore and her mother that the punishment needed to change.
Last week, Dianna Larkins spoke to the news about how her daughter was humiliated on her third day in a new school in a new state for
unintentionally violating Oakleaf High School`s dress code policy. Miranda Larkin broke out in hives when she was forced to wear this, a
bright red and neon yellow suit with the worst dress code violation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Leeann, Mike and Jennifer. A teacher reportedly told 15-year-old Miranda that her skirt was just too short.
Miranda was ordered to change into the school`s dress code violation outfit, the shame suit. I have her on the phone. I have Miranda Larkin
and her mother, Dianna Larkin. Miranda, your third day in a new school and as we heard in that report, it was so upsetting to you to be stuck in this
shame suit. You actually broke out in hives?
MIRANDA LARKIN: Yes, I did.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. Are you okay now? I cannot resist.
MIRANDA LARKIN: Yes.
PINSKY: How did you get through that and adjust to a brand new school, having walked around with that crazy outfit on?
MIRANDA LARKIN: I was really embarrassed and I did not want to go to class after that. So, I called my mom. She told me not to go to class and I was
going to get picked up early from school that day.
PINSKY: Now, Dianna, you admit your daughter inadvertently violated the dress code, but did the school give her the options that they supposed to
have given her?
DIANNA LARKIN: No. She was never given any options. In fact, it is not even in the handbook that those options are available. It is just a
statement that they made. The only option they gave her was to put on the outfit. And, like I said -- or like Miranda just said when she broke out
in hives, I said you are not going to class like that. You get to go home. There is no way I am going to let you be humiliated all day.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: And, then, Miranda, you actually vented on Instagram and Facebook and then the whole thing went viral. Do you regret that at all?
MIRANDA LARKIN: See, originally, when I had put it -- originally, when I had posted about it, it was on Facebook, only my friends could see it. And
on Instagram, I did not think it was going to become a big deal.
PINSKY: Are kids treating you OK now in spite of this getting so much media attention.
MIRANDA LARKIN: Yes. Actually, I have been getting a lot of support from a lot of different people.
PINSKY: Mike, do you have any question from Miranda or mom?
CATHERWOOD: I mean, did not you feel like it was already embarrassing enough, Mrs. Larkin, to move your child to Florida?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: All right. We will get another question. Sam?
SCHACHER: Oh my Gosh. How do I follow that? OK. Has the school, Miranda, reconsidered how they are going to punish children now that
violate the dress code or are they continue to enforce this shame suit?
DIANNA: Well, I -- can I answer that?
PINSKY: Please, go ahead.
SCHACHER: I actually met with the superintendent of schools on Friday, and the game plan for them right now, what they said is they are collecting
opinions and information from the community.
And, they will be meeting with the school board to re-evaluate their punishment for level one offenses. So, hopefully, you know, this is going
to have a positive outcome. We are really going to have to wait until the school board meets. But, that is what their plan is right now.
PINSKY: Leeann.
TWEEDEN: Diana, I am surprised that your daughter had to call. Did the school not call you at all to let your know your daughter had broken the
rules?
DIANNA LARKIN: No.
TWEEDEN: Wow. Interesting.
DIANNA LARKIN: She was just sent to the nurse is office and told to change into the clothes. The reason she called me was because she was so upset,
so the nurse let her call me.
PINSKY: It is so bizarre to me.
TWEEDEN: I think the school should change --
CATHERWOOD: Excuse me. The outfit in question actually looks quite tasteful. What was the objection if you do not mind me asking?
PINSKY: It is not tasteful. Listen --
CATHERWOOD: No. No. No. Not the shaming suit. Her original outfit here. I do not see what was wrong with that?
PINSKY: It needed to be 3 inches above the knee or something. Did they bring out a measuring stick, Miranda, and measure how far your dress from
your knee?
MIRANDA LARKIN: No, actually. The rule that I thought was 3 inches above the knee. The rule is to the knee.
PINSKY: To the knee. Wow. Jennifer, last question. You got about 20 seconds.
KEITT: I am glad. I am absolutely glad, mom, that you did what you had to do for your daughter. Any recommendations for other parents out there,
other moms?
DIANNA LARKIN: Absolutely. My goal right now, because I actually through this have found out this is going on throughout the country. So, I am
actually refocusing my effort to make a settle case out of it. I want to get the laws changed or the rules changed so that public shaming,
humiliation and intimidation is not allowed to be a punishing tool in the school system.
PINSKY: We are going to have to leave it right there. I will remind everyone that we all read scarlet letter in high school and junior high
school and looked at it as a barbaric practice and here we are, doing it again. Thank you, guys. DVR us any time. You can watch us -- DVR us then
you can watch us anytime. Forensic Files, up next.
END
