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Dr. Drew
A Fraternity Brother Caught Leading A Racist Chant And Now Apologizing; New Information On Bobbi Kristina`s Medical Condition; A Mother Of Seven In A Coma Since Valentine`s Day; A Man Admits Ejaculating Into A Co-Worker Is Coffee, But The Law Says He Did Nothing Wrong; One Woman Says Sex With A Tree Is So Good She Wants To Marry It; Phil Robertson Of Duck Dynasty Gave Speech At Prayer Breakfast In Florida Today. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired March 25, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:06] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, he was kicked out of college for leading a racist chant. Now, he
is talking and we will hear from him.
Plus, there is new information on Bobbi Kristina`s medical condition from her grandmother. Cissy Houston gives us an update. Let us start
though with the most twitted story of the night. A fraternity brother is caught leading a racist chant. He is apologizing in person. You will hear
from him in a moment. But first, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRATERNITY BROTHERS AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA (chanting): There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD)
in SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. You can hang them from a
tree, but they will never sign with me. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Today, Levi Pettit spoke with pastors, politicians, members of the African-American community and seemingly like everybody. Take a
look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEVI PETTIT, A 20-YEAR-OLD FORMER UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA FRATERNITY MEMBER: Although I do not deserve it, I want to ask for your forgiveness.
The bottom line is that the words that were said in that chant were mean, hateful and racist. To hear the words that I am a racist or bigot may seem
logical after seeing my face.
It is not who I really am. It is not how I was raised to be and not who I think of myself to be. I am not here to talk about what happened on
the bus. I am not here today to talk about where I learned the chant or how it was taught. I am done. Thank you, guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Anneelise Goetz, Attorney; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Pepperdine University and Vanessa Barnett,
Hiphollywood.com. Anneelise, he met with a state senator. He met with -- he surrounded by these African-American leaders.
Is this -- some people are going to think certainly and my question is, is this a rich kid whose family was able to pull some strings to get a
great PR team together? Or is this a genuinely contrite young man?
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Of course it is a rich kid that had, "Mommy and daddy are concerned with me, flipping burgers for the rest of
his life." So, they paid for a PR team. I have not seen a more orchestrated event in years. I cannot believe this.
Of course this guy who has those types of horrible words in his vocabulary did not choose to come -- or did not think of this idea of, "I
am going to reach out to the African-American leaders in the society and I am going to go to the African-American churches."
And, this is a guy that has got politicious family, and politician in his back pocket and they are trying to spin the story. And, you know what?
He would not take any questions because he cannot handle those questions.
PINSKY: Interesting. That is really interesting. Vanessa, apparently, the chant had been taught to pledges for years. So, he
certainly cannot talk about this as an isolated incident. And, what do you feel about his -- was it an apology? Is that what that was?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I do not -- I have a hard time believing he is sorry. I think he is sorry he got caught. I do not
believe that he in this short span of time really understands the ramifications of what he was saying, what he was singing, what he incited
other brothers to sing along with him.
But the bigger issue is beyond him. You have an entire fraternity, like you said, that has been taught this language, that has been taught
this songs for generations. This is nothing new. And, this is why I am a part of a Black Greek Letter Organization. I know this.
I know this very well, and it is not surprising to me. But it is upsetting that only the person that was on tape that you could see his face
is the one that is speaking out when this entire fraternity needs to make some changes and needs to address the situation.
PINSKY: You know what I would do? I want to bring in Janine Driver. She is what we call our "Human Lie Detector." And, Janine, I am
giving you a, otherwise, normal, healthy young man to analyze here. And, I am curious what you saw in this so-called apology. Did it seem genuine?
I saw a little bit of indignation, I think, Janine. What did you see?
JANINE DRIVER, BLI`S PRESIDENT/HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Yes, you know, I am really disgusted by this video, Dr. Drew. We see his lips disappearing.
You know, my motto is, when we do not like what we see or hear, our lips disappear. Great!
So, does he not like what he said or does he not like the fact that he got busted? We do not know. But, we do know this. We see his nostrils
flare when he talks about -- and he grits his teeth in anger when he is talking about getting caught. And, I just do not see sincerity.
When someone says I am disappointed to myself, I am sad or I was fearful - he did not say I was fearful of coming out. This is why it took
me a long time. Do you know what I look for, Dr. Drew? I look for sadness in the face.
You know what else I look for? I look for fear. The inner eyebrows pull together and up in sadness. The bottom lip curls out slightly. And
fear, the eyebrows go up in straight across. We see the three whites of the eyes.
PINSKY: Yes.
DRIVE: We call it the three lights -- I do not see it. And, you know what else, I do not hear it in his tone and pitch of voice. How about
this? I am embarrassed. I am sad. I was fearful. How about I can do that with my voice to think of the disgust --
[21:05:01] PINSKY: Yes.
DRIVE: All of my African-American friends that had to watch this. This rips my heart out, though.
PINSKY: Yes.
DRIVE: This did not come across as sincere. And, it enrages me that rich mommy and daddy most likely paid to even have someone write that
letter probably. It is disgusting.
PINSKY: Judy, I have to get behind Janine on this. You know, I would -- there is no affect is what she is saying. And, the only affect you say
is the affect of sort of embarrassment and sort of discomfort and all the stuff rather than a heartfelt contrite. That is what we want to hear. We
want to hear him throw himself on his sword and go, "I did not know necessarily but this -- I do not know what to say. It is so awful.
JUDY HO, PHD., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree, Dr. Drew. And, when you were saying that you saw indignation, I saw that, too. Because he
refused flat out to answer certain questions.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: So, he wanted to do this on his own terms. He was obviously advised by people that this would be the right action.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: And, the answer to your questions, Dr. Drew, is that he does not feel remorse. And, that is why we are seeing this behavior. And, nothing
is going to change because he probably did not think something was wrong with it until somebody pointed it out.
PINSKY: Well, look, he admits that, guys -- hold on a second. He took a few questions after giving the apology. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Where did the chant start and who did you learn it from?
PETTIT: I am not here today to talk about where I learned the chant or how it was taught.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: There was laughter on the bus. What were you thinking?
PETTIT: I am not here to talk about what happened on the bus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, I am going to make my producers absolutely insane right now. Do you have the footage of him saying he did not know what the
words meant and he did not understand what he was saying?
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: He says that later. We can wait until the next block. I am going to play it in the next block for you guys, because it really is so
telling. Judy, it is exactly what you are talking about.
He actually says, "I did not know what the heck I was saying. I guess I am learning now. And, I am curious." I have not seen the footage
yet, but I am dying to see what the affect is attached to that. By the affect , we mean the feelings.
CLANTON: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, it might be. But that tells us everything about where he is at, even if it is just -- if it is embarrassment and as Janine said,
sadness, these sorts of things or -- I mean that would be appropriate. But just what you said to kind of indignation and -- I do not know. This is
troubling me. Vanessa, I am sorry for all of us when I see this stuff. It makes me embarrassed.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: You know what I am saying.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: Because I am sure there are people in that fraternity that do not feel that way. I am sure that people are enraged. Everyone seems
to be enraged. This is not just black people that are mad that he is out here singing the "N" word.
People, culturally, everywhere are upset that this boy thinks these words are OK and then to have this half A apology -- I do not want to curse
here. I am sorry. But, it does not -- it is not sitting well with anyone. No one believes it.
And, to say in 2015 as a college educated man that you do not know what those words mean -- I am calling it BS. No one is buying that.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. And, can we show again the people surrounding this young man? There seem to be sincere people around him. And,
Vanessa, I am wondering if you could tell me, what do you think their motivation is?
I look at it and I see enthusiasm on their face. I see an opportunity, you know? That woman over his right shoulder, she looked like
she was really like, thank goodness this man is -- I was looking to her.
BARNETT: I believe she is the one that did reach out to him. She is a public figure in Oklahoma, I believe, if I am speaking correctly. And,
she really thought this could be a teaching opportunity. She really thought that this young man should not be dragged through the mud and that
he was absolutely sorry and that --
PINSKY: So, she is a state senator, right?
BARNETT: Yes. She is a state senator.
PINSKY: I am looking for that woman. That is the person I want to talk to. Let us move him aside and let us to talk to her, because I think
she may be on to something. That is a sincere person. That is who I want to talk to.
All right, next up, the expelled student asked for forgiveness but admit he does not deserve it and he did not know what these words meant.
And the question is, should we allow forgiveness? That is going to be up to my viewers.
And, later, new developments about Bobbi Kristina`s condition. We will hear from her grandmother. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:13:11] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRATERNITY BROTHERS AT UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA (chanting): There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD) in SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE WORD)
in SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Was it that you just did not understand how bad those words were, or simply chose to ignore that?
PETTIT: I think I knew they were wrong, but I never knew how or why they were wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Judy, Vanessa. Fraternity brother expelled from the University of Oklahoma after a racist chant. Now, he is
apologizing. Judy, he did not -- this is his quote, did not know how or why the words he spoke were wrong. Really? Is that possible?
HO: Well, Dr. Drew, I think that it is within the realm of possibility, but that must be such a minute audience in this day and age
that without considering that, I think more of the consideration is that they were looking to the social cues in the other fraternity brothers. --
PINSKY: You are being kind.
HO: And, because nobody else seemed to think it was wrong -
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: You are being kind.
HO: -- then he thought it was not wrong -- No. I am saying I am being kind because that is him pushing off responsibility.
PINSKY: All right, Janine --
HO: That is him saying, I did not know better because everybody else seemed OK with it.
PINSKY: Janine, I am going to quote the great Adam Carolla. He has - - when things seem unbelievable that somebody says something that just does not seem possible, he always goes, "No. There is only two possibilities
here," he says -- And, this is, I do not know that this young man is either of these things. This is what Adam Carolla says. He goes, "Liar or
stupid." Which is it?
DRIVER: He is a liar, I think. Well, listen, you think about we had Weiner, right? So, Weiner came out, said someone hacked his account in
Twitter. And, guess what? He got caught on the steps of a federal building -- of a building with all these pillars behind him.
He said, "Listen, my office already put comments out. I am not answering questions about the tweet. That has already been answered in a
memo. Does not take questions." Bill Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Took no questions after that statement.
[21:15:06] PINSKY: Good point there, Janine.
DRIVER: He took no questions after that statement. Then what happens? We saw -- do you remember -- what is his name? -- Chris
Christie. Chris Christie, he took questions. He said, "My office was lying. They are all liars. I fired my main person. I will take any
questions you guys have. And, he stayed there to the very last question was answered. Truthful people will stay and answer the questions. This
man is a liar. He is a liar.
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: I pick both. Can I pick both? Can I pick stupid liar?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Go ahead. That could be. That could be.
BARNETT: I mean it is obvious.
PINSKY: Or -- but let us not forget, that he could be carefully schooled in some way by some PR team. And, this could not even be his
words. Who knows?
BARNETT: I mean, any credible PR team would be able to read that this man is not believable. Like I am sure he was in a back room rehearsing
this thing. Somebody has to stand up and say, "Whoa! You are not a good actor, sir. This is bad."
But, clearly, he does not mean the words he is saying. Clearly, there is a bigger issue at hand, and he has tried to protect said
fraternity who he is saying that, "Oh, I cannot answer any of these questions." That will then implicate the fraternity for teaching this year
after year, generation after generation.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
BARNETT: He is not worried about just himself. He has a bigger issue at hand here. That is a brotherhood. I know firsthand. When you have a
sisterhood -- I am in a sisterhood, you stay within that sisterhood. You do not go against the sisterhood. So, he is trying to protect his brothers
on the bus and the thousands in the fraternity.
PINSKY: Vanessa, I am sorry -- I am sorry, but I hate that. I hate it. I hate clubs.
BARNETT: You hate it when it is wrong.
PINSKY: I hate protecting --
BARNETT: Look, when we are right, it is great. When he is wrong, he is wrong.
PINSKY: And, I know, Anneelise, you are an apologist for sororities and things, but the idea of clubs and sexist -- sex exclusionary clubs -- I
want to play a tape from Bill Maher. I usually -- Bill Maher is a friend of mine and I have a full disclosure.
You know, he says very provocative things. But he thinks them out very carefully. And, he intends them to be provocative. He, of course, is
on HBO. And, he had an interesting take on fraternities. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: There is one bad little thing about fraternities. They kill people. Every year some kid dies when the
hilarious dangle the pledge over the wood chipper prank goes awry.
Since 1970, there has been at least one hazing related death every year as pledges routinely endure alcohol poisoning, sleep deprivation,
water boarding, being dressed in diapers, buried in trash, force fed cat food. Jesus! Why not just pledge ISIS?
(LAUGHING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Annelise, you know, he is taking things to an extreme there. But, you understand what he is saying?
GOETZ: I understand what he is saying and I think that obviously whenever we have a situation where someone is hurt, or there is a death, or
there is an assault, then that is criminal activity. And, those people should be charged. And, we see people -- we see the other fraternity
brothers be charged when it happened.
PINSKY: Anneelise, stop. I am going to stop you. I am going to stop you. I am sorry. I am sorry. But hate language leads to horrible -- that
is my problem with hate language, it leads to aggression. It leads to violence. It leads to horrible things. That is the horrible thing about
hate language.
GOETZ: But it is not fair.
PINSKY: Yes, sure -- Sure, it is our first amendment of privilege to use te things we hate the most. we got to defend. I understand that. I
understand that, but sometimes it leads yelling fire in a crowded theater - -
BARNETT: No. No.
PINSKY: What? No what, Vanessa?
BARNETT: No, because you are missing the sole basis. Look, I am in an organization that prides itself on community service. We help our
communities. We give back to the communities. We stand up --
PINSKY: That is how you justify your survival.
BARNETT: No. Every situation -- you could pick -- doctors kill people all the time. Should they not practice medicine? A chef cuts
somebody`s arm. Should they not cook anymore?
Look, you have bad in every situation. But, what you do is you look at the good, you look at the thousands of people that are helped. And, you
try not to focus on the negative, because there are bad people in the world in every instance, in every --
PINKSY: All right. Judy?
BARNETT: I mean family. Parents kill their kids. Should no one have kids anymore? You are going too far.
PINSKY: You are taking it too far, Vanessa. Judy, what do you say?
BARNETT: I am?
HO: Dr. Drew, this is --
PINSKY: Yes, It is too diffuse. There is no argument. It is like there are bad people in the world. OK. I got it.
HO: Slow down. Let me -- let me -- Vanessa, let me speak specifically about this particular instance and why I agree with dr. Drew
that these types of things lead to really, really bad behaviors and horrible consequences.
It is because any kind of attitude has these three components. It has a thought component where you have negative thoughts, and an emotional
component where you feel hate.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, when those two things come together, it is inevitably going to bleed into your behaviors. So, any chance that you can discriminate
against somebody, you are going to end up doing that even without you necessarily acknowledging that on a very conscious level. And, that is
what I am afraid of with this particular fraternity, this man and other people in his situation.
BARNETT: This fraternity -- it is clear that this fraternity practices hate. This is something that this chant has been passed on.
HO: I do not know if they are doing that on purpose.
BARNETT: This is their fraternity. There are several organizations that do not promote things like this. And, you cannot lump them all
together. It is not there.
HO: They are not. No, I am not saying that, Vanessa.
PINSKY: All right. Listen.
HO: I am not saying that. I am saying that there is a very specific thought here.
[21:20:00] PINSKY: And there is potential to do something good here. One of the people who is clear to me is attempting to do so is the senator
who reached out to this young man. God bless her for doing that. It is State Senator Anastasia Pittman. My crack producer have a little comment
from her. Let us hear what she got to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ANASTASIA PITTMAN, (D) OKLAHOMA CITY REPRESENTATIVE: We have heard the sentiments of Levi Pettit and his family. And, we want to
receive those sentiments and things that were said to us in a closed meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: Just to clarify, you accept his apology, and you believe he is sincere?
SEN. PITTMAN: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Janine, you see what I see there, do not you? Which is sincerity and a calm sort of -- Yes, tell me what you see.
DRIVER: Well, first of all, out of the whole entire video, which I watched 15 times when your producers sent this to me an hour ago, she was
by far my favorite person. My husband was looking over my shoulder and said, "Who is that woman? Dr. Drew should get her on the show."
She was sincere. She was shaking her head. I was like in church, like "Amen! Amen!" She was nodding her head to what I think were well-
scripted words. And, if the words were real and we have the tone and then affect, then, yes, you know? It was like Tiger Woods.
Tiger Woods looked like a robot when he first came out. I would have much rather see Tiger in a baseball hat keeping it real. He did not like a
lot of attention. Here we have that robotic, you know, no affect. People are not going to buy it. I love this woman. She is a senator.
PINSKY: You know what, Janine? You bring up Tiger. The one thing I did see in tiger that I do not see in this kid, I saw shame.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Profound shame with Tiger. That is one of the -- He was frozen solid by shame. And, I do not see that here I am afraid. Thank
you, panel. I think this is a situation where it is hard to see what is really going on with this kid because there is such a gloss of the PR team.
I am looking to this woman to help us, this State Senator Anastasia - - tell me her last name again. Anastasia -- Help me, anybody. Well -- Pittman, Pittman. Senator Pittman. I think she is the one we must look to
for leadership as we find our way through this.
Because it is an opportunity to make things better. Let us use that opportunity. I know Anneelise and Vanessa are not just apologist but
enthusiasts for the Greek system. And, I just have seen horrible things. I have seen, you know, unwanted contacts and things happening to people.
And, it is all around binge alcohol and it fuels to binge alcohol situation. It is just the idea of exclusionary clubs. It is really
something -- I am not of any type. Any kind of club that excludes. I am uncomfortable with it. That is all I am saying. Let us just think about
it.
Next up, a mother of seven in a coma since valentine`s day. Doctors say she is brain dead, but her family insists she will recover.
And, later, a man -- I am going to read this. I am going to read this. These are not my words. A man admits ejaculating into a co-worker
is coffee, but the law says he did nothing wrong. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:46] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: A family is fighting to keep Lisa Avila, a mother of seven, on life support. Six weeks ago, she
fell into a coma after being sent home from the hospital with severe abdominal pain.
Two doctors have declared Lisa brain dead. And, the hospital wants to remove her ventilator. But her family disagrees and got a temporary
court order to keep her on life support.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with my behavior bureau, Anneelise, Judy and Vanessa. This woman went into cardiac arrest shortly after leaving the
hospital. Family says this was an ectopic pregnancy, which means a pregnancy is formed in the tube. Those are tough to diagnose sometimes and
they missed it.
The Anaheim Regional Medical Center released this statement, quote, "This is a very difficult situation. We extend our deepest heartfelt
sympathy to the family and friends of the patient. They remain in our thoughts and prayers."
All right. So, this woman goes home. They missed the diagnosis. She bleeds to death -- to death. She bleeds to death. She codes in the
emergency room, declared brain dead. But there is still a heart rhythm and she has some ventilator capacity on a breathing machine.
And, now the court is ordering the hospital not to withdraw life -- tissue sustaining measured. There is no life sustaining here. Life is
over. Brain dead is brain dead. Two doctors declared her brain dead.
That is a brain that is liquefied. It does not exist anymore. My question, Anneelise, A. What right does a court have do that? And, B. Are
they holding malpractice over the hospital and the doctors as a way of wedging this sort of court order in somehow?
GOETZ: No. I think that the reason that the courts are stepping in is in these situations where you have the hospital and you have the family
taking two different positions --
PINSKY: No. How you can take a different position when somebody is dead? How can somebody take a position that is counter factual?
GOETZ: Well, right now what they want is to have another neurologist come in. And, that is what the court is doing. This temporary restraining
order, this is the best thing that can happen for the hospital. Because the hospital is what they are taking the action.
PINSKY: They can get -- No, Anneelise. They are looking for a neurologist that will declare it something other than brain dead or
something. It is like getting an expert witness. You can get people to say things. Brain dead is brain dead.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Maybe a neurologist --
GOETZ: Which is why --
PINSKY: What?
GOETZ: When you get three people to come in and actually three neurologists say that, I think they are waiting for that third one to come
in who has a similar case in California a few years ago --
PINSKY: No. No. No.
GOETZ: -- Where they want the third one to come in and say brain dead. At which point in time, then the court will I think most likely say,
"Hospital, you are legally allowed to remove the ventilator."
PINSKY: All right. Let me tell you what is happening. Let me -- let me -- what is happening now -- you can get -- there is 15 neurologists
that could walk in there and they would say the same thing. I guarantee it. But, now the legal system involved, and there is a malpractice case,
nobody wants to get involved with it. Do you understand?
That is why everyone is like, "Not me. Why should I get involved with that?" So, this poor woman -- show me the picture of the woman. This
is the state she is in right now. If you can bring that up. This is the state she is in and will remain in as long as they allow her to stay like
that. In fact almost there.
Give me the picture we saw in the opening, because she will not change from this ever. Except that her skin will break down and slough
off. She will start to have contracturing of all her joints. And, she will have a tracheostomy, which appears they have -- I cannot see where
they have actually put that in yet. She has a gastrostomy tube.
[21:30:11] This is a -- that is her before all this. A catastrophe. It is a horrible, horrible, horrible tragedy. This woman died because
somebody missed something that should recon. It is a tragedy of epic proportions.
But, she has a bunch of children here that are holding up -- you know of course, these kids do not know what is going on. How can the legal
system get in the way of all that? Judy, do you understand what I am saying? This is a deeply disturbing situation.
HO: I absolutely do, Dr. Drew. And, it sounds like this is one of those situations, a little bit unlike what we have been talking about a
lot, Bobbi Kristina where every single family member is united. They want to keep this person on the ventilator until I guess they are ready to
really say good-bye. And, then going --
PINSKY: Which is never.
HO: I know.
PINSKY: Which is never.
HO: I know.
PINSKY: Listen. I am going to play to you -- do not we have a tape of a family member talking about how she moves around easily and this kind
of nonsense?
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes. Let us listen to this tape. This is one of Lisa`s children. Listen. My heart breaks for this child. But the child is going
to go through just misery until she is allowed to grieve. Here is what she says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: It has been really hard. I try to stay strong for my brothers and sisters, especially the babies.
She moves a lot. We can ask her to move. She will move. Hopefully, between the time she wakes up. That is all we want, for her to come home
with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HO: Dr. Drew, these will well intentioned family members who do not have medical knowledge.
PINSKY: It is such a tragedy that these children are allowed to sit with those thoughts that are counter factual. Brain dead is brain dead.
There is no volition movement. There will never be somebody going home. Even let us say she does have some recovery and goes into some sort of
chronic vegetative locked-in crazy state.
That is not going to happen. A brain that does not exist is a brain that does not exist. And, I do not know -- I do know -- And Anneelise, it
is disgusting to me that people are allowed to harm people like that using the legal system as some kind of a mallet.
GOETZ: I completely disagree with you, Dr. Drew. I do not think that the legal system is harming the situation. I think it is helping it. I
think that the legal system is coming in and acting as a referee between the hospital and the family.
HO: It is not their call.
GOETZ: Because right now, they cannot see -- they are not hearing what the hospital is saying that they have two -- they have two
neurologists saying that she is brain dead.
Well, the temporary restraining order is to come in and get that third -- that third opinion. Because I am sure the hospital is saying, "We
are keeping a dead person alive right now. We are not in the business of doing that."
PINSKY: Yes. That is right.
GOETZ: So, it is when they pull the plug, before they can do that, would not it be nice to get the stamp of approval of the legal system?
HO: No.
GOETZ: You are worried about medical malpractice. This is a great way to avoid it.
PINSKY: There is going -- No, they are not going to avoid malpractice. This should not have happened.
GOETZ: For the hospital, for the hospital not the --
PINSKY: No. The hospital is going to eat do-do on this one. Trust me. There is going to be a big malpractice case, which one of the reasons
everyone is tiptoeing around this thing.
On the phone -- I need a consult from up here. I have a Dr. Mauricio Heilbron, General Trauma and Vascular Surgeon. Dr. Mau, help me out with
this. I mean do you agree, they should have caught this. This is going to be a malpractice case, right? Number one.
DR. MAURICIO HEILBRON, GENERAL TRAUMA & VASCULAR SURGEON: Absolutely. It is a miss.
PINSKY: Yes. Number one.
DR. EILBRON: Yes, it is a miss.
PINSKY: Well, it is a terrible tragedy.
DR. HEILBRON: Right.
PINSKY: You know, things happen. It is awful. What can you say? But, what about the hospital, or the legal system going in there and
allowing this poor family to cling to these ideas that are fantasy.
DR. HEILBRON: Well, I think you just hit on it. Malpractice often is not about reality often. It is about opinion and about angling. So, what
we have to get clear here is bottom line, it appears she is brain dead.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. HEILBRON: Dead is dead like you said before. And, she is not coming back.
PINSKY: Yes.
DR. HEILBRON: Getting lawyers involved and other stuff involved is taking away -- if anybody should get involved it should be counselors and
therapists and healers and people to get the people to get together and mourn and grieve over this poor woman.
PINSKY: Listen. Yes. I was thinking when Anneelise was saying the legal system is helping -- No, I want Judy on this. I want somebody like
Judy to help. That helps. That brings people around. I am sure the hospital would say, "Take what time you need. If it takes a week, let us
get them to the place" -- they are not in the business of making families miserable or harming them, right?
I mean they are going to give them the time. They may not give them two months like Whitney Houston`s family -- or Bobbi Kristina`s family.
But, they will give the family time to come to terms with this. But not -- you know what is going to happen here?
What is going to happen is this child, this woman, this poor woman is going to be moved to some sort extended care facility indefinitely. And,
she is going to be on a breathing machine. And, she is going to contracture. Dr. Mau, I will give you a chance to describe about, again,
what you have said to us about what this kind of existence would be like for a patient.
[21:35:00] DR. HEILBRON: Yes. I mean if she is brain dead, she is brain dead. She is not thinking of anything. But, what I would like
people to try to imagine is imagine there is a little bit of her still left inside and she feels that tube going right into her throat.
And, she feels the tube in her stomach and she feels all the catheters going into her bladder and the needle sticks and the I.Vs, and
her legs will start to bend and contract and twist. And, her skin is going to start breaking down.
And, she is going to get a horrific bedsores that is going to get infected. She will never wake up. She will not do anything. You had a
nurse make a comment the other day that was brilliant about that she is not moving, the nurse is moving her. She is not feeding. The nurse is feeding
her. She is not breathing. A machine is breathing. She is not there.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Yes, that nurse is actually my hero. I tried to get a hold of her today. If she is around, she is out Facebook friend, please do post
again for us on Facebook. I will bring her on this show.
That little piece that might feel pain, which if she is brain dead there is no such thing. But, let us say there was, she would not feel
love. She would not feel interaction with the outside world. She would not see anything. She would not hear anything.
I have Cissy Houston speaking up for the first time. That is the grandmother of Bobbi Kristina. She is speaking up about Bobbi Kristina`s
medical condition for the first time.
And, later, one woman says -- I cannot believe I am saying these things as we move out of these tough, tough topics. One woman says sex
with a tree is so good she wants to marry it. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:32] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Lisa Avila has been on life support for six weeks. And, her family wants to keep it that way.
Though, two doctors have declared her brain dead. Her family hopes that keeping her on a ventilator will give her a chance to heal. But the family
cannot wait much longer to see if Lisa`s condition changes. A court order to continue life support is about to run out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Annelise, Judy and Vanessa. Lisa Avila`s family seems to be united in their decision to keep her on life support. I am
telling you, brain death is one of the easiest things to diagnose. It is not equivocal. It either is or is not.
Listen, it is like saying -- believe me, it is obvious when somebody is brain dead. And, if somebody -- let us say in a world you never
imagine, which essentially never happens, they were wrong, the degree to which you could come back from that kind of a brain injury where you appear
to be brain dead, I will have none of it for me or my family.
It is disgusting. It is disgusting what happens. In Kristina`s case, remember Bobbi Kristina, we suspect there might have been
disagreement amongst those relatives as opposed to the unity that we saw with the Avila`s family. And these are all children. It is just, of
course, you know -- they do not want their mom to die.
But, Judy, it is actually probably worse for the hospital staff when there is unity. Because there is sort of a shared almost fantasy or
delusion. If you have one person that is an outlier, you can bring them in -- if they have a realistic idea of things or if they have a realistic idea
of one outlier, you can build with that person.
HO: That is right. It is group think at its worst when there is a unified opinion around something this horrible.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, Dr. Drew, I think one of the things that as you were saying earlier and the doctor who you brought on the last segment talked about
too, is think about if there was a tiny shred of any kind of consciousness for that person, what type of this things --
PINSKY: But the problem is, the family would go, "I could talk to her and I can tell her I love her. She could still love me back." No, that is
not how the brain works. It is not how the brain works.
HO: No. No. That is right, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Now, Judy.
HO: Yes.
PINSKY: Cissy Houston, Bobbi Kristina`s grandmother is speaking out for the first time about Bobbi Kristina`s condition. I hear what she has
to say -- I have not heard it yet. I hear it is rational.
HO: OK.
PINSKY: I am dying to hear this. Listen to what she told WBLS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: How is she doing?
CISSY HOUSTON, BOBBI KRISTINA`S GRANDMOHER: She is the same. They moved her to a place for rehabilitation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
HOUSTON: And, you know, still not a great deal of hope. We are praying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Yes.
HOUSTON: I do not pray like that. I give it to God one time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
HOUSTON: Because I know he is able. And, I cannot change a thing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Right.
HOUSTON: So, I am asking everybody, just pray to the Lord who we know can do something about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE INTERVIEWER: That is right.
HOUSTON: You know, if he works a miracle, thank God. If it happens the other way, I am all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Bobbi Kristina`s case is different. Her coma is different from brain death. The brain death things are really clear. Bobbi
Kristina`s case, she is not dead. She is not dead. I am not saying that they should allow her to die.
I am saying they should give rational care, which means care that is appropriate to the level of what is going on here. Anneelise, when I say
that, do you understand what I am talking about?
GOETZ: Yes. I think that I do. I think that when we are talking about someone being brain dead versus coma and when -- as you said in past
episodes, we want to move someone out of the ICU and give them the proper care, I think that really makes sense.
PINSKY: Right. That is right.
GOETZ: I also think that a big difference between these two cases -- you have hit on this earlier in the segment, is that we are not looking at
a potential malpractice claim with Bobbi Kristina.
PINSKY: No. No.
GOETZ: Because she came in that state.
PINSKY: That is right.
GOETZ: And, so, everyone is going to be acting a little bit differently --
PINSKY: However --
GOETZ: -- when they know a lawsuit is coming down the pipeline.
PINSKY: But, however, when you know people get scared. Physicians get scared. Nurses get scared that somebody is going -- when families have
bizarre, unrealistic expectations, everybody gets frightened that if they do exactly what that family wants, there is going to be some sort of suit
for some sort of God forsaken reason. Vanessa, are you coming to terms with this one at all? Do you understand more what I have been talking
about all this time?
[21:45:00] BARNETT: I think I understand what you are saying. My confusion is when you can so eloquently explain what a brain death is and
what Bobbi Kristina coma is and how it is different from another coma, but you have like that family member saying, "Well, she could move her legs"
and I read that, "She gets goose bumps."
And then you know, with Bobbi Kristina, "Oh, her eyes moved." And, so, there is that false sense of hope, I guess. It is how you kind of
explain it. Why can you tell this story so well and -- I mean even convince the likes of me but the hospital officials are not able to do that
with these families? Are they telling them something different?
PINSKY: My fear is -- I doubt this is true. But my fear is that they are giving her special care. And, when you have a celebrity that gets
special care, they get substandard care. I say this all the time too. The standard of care is the standard because it is what we give everybody
because it is the best.
Now, I am not talking about some fancy new procedure or fancy new medication that people may want to try. I am saying -- that is up to the
patients. Typically, you are going to not get better care doing that.
But when the standard situation is something that should be treated in a standard fashion, you are going to get substandard care if somebody
comes in and gives you something special.
Next up, I promised a woman`s love for a tree -- that is right. She says sex with a tree is the best ever.
And, later, a man admits to a crush on a co-worker. So, he produces some body fluids for her coffee. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:50:38] PINSKY: Time now for Click Fix where you tell me what is trending on your Facebook, Twitter and Instagram feeds. Back with
Anneelise, Judy and Vanessa. Judy, you are up first. What do you got?
HO: OK. Somebody I follow on Instagram posted a picture from Twitter. And, it is a photo of a 31-year-old woman, Emma, who has fallen in
love with a tree who she has named Tim.
Now, she says Tim is the best of all of the boyfriends that she has had. And, that he sexually satisfies her. She gratifies herself by
rubbing herself up on his bark naked. It provoked a pleasurable painful sensation.
PINSKY: Judy. Judy. OK. I will just say one thing is -- first impression is ouch.
HO: Ouch.
PINSKY: Second impression is, does this have a name when people fall in love with this object like fences and trees and Eiffel tower or whatever
the heck?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. It is called objectophilia.
PINSKY: Oh really?
HO: And it is actually something --
PINSKY: Interesting. Interesting.
HO: Yes. And, it is actually something that is different from fetishesism. Because these individuals view these objects as equal
partners in the relationship. And, they are not just used to enhance their sexual relationship.
It is actually the person or the thing that they have sexual relationship with. And, interestingly, enough, there is a small group of
researchers who have started to look at this and they do not believe it is related to any kind of childhood sexual trauma. And, they believe that it
should actually --
PINSKY: It is a brain problem. It is a brain problem.
HO: Well, no. They actually think that it should be a sexual orientation that is recognized.
PINSKY: Oh come on! No. No.
HO: I am not with this camp. I am not with this camp.
PINSKY: OK. I am just saying if there were ever sort of a pathological behavior, this would be it. I am just saying.
HO: Thank you.
PINSKY: Anneelise, what is trending on your feed?
GOETZ: OK. Dr. Drew, so all over my Twitter today is this ridiculous story coming out of the Duck Dynasty stars and that crew. I do
not know why we have given these people a platform, but --
PINSKY: They are very popular.
GOETZ: Yes, I guess so. So, we have Phil Robertson, who is one of the stars of the show. And, he was making a speech at a prayer breakfast
in Florida today. And, he had some pretty strong words and somewhat ridiculous stories as it relates to atheist. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL ROBERTSON, "DUCK DYNASTY" STAR: Two guys break into his home and tie him up in a chair and gag him. And, then they take his two daughters
in front of him and rape both of them and then shoot them.
And, they take his wife and decapitate her head off in front of him. And then they can look at him and say, "Is not it great." But that I do
not have to worry about being judged? You are the one that says there is no God. There is no right. There is no wrong. So, we are just having
fun. We are sick, in the head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anneelise, if there were a sick comment, that would be it.
GOETZ: I mean what this guy has completely forgotten is that you would be judged with that ridiculous fact pattern. That is why we have a
criminal justice system. If anyone --
PINSKY: Not only that --
GOETZ: Any of those things.
PINSKY: Not only that. People have a moral compass in their head. People do know right from wrong. People are able to make choices without
some external. Force on them. And, if they do not have a religious morality going on, there is certainly a legal system there to be a second
barrier against this kind of behavior if somebody is indeed so sick in the head.
Next, finally, we will get to that coffee cup and the body fluids after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:58:12] PINSKY: I am back with Anneelise, Judy and Vanessa. And, Vanessa, you are on the segment dedicated to your lovely Click Fix.
BARNETT: Yes. My Facebook feed was on fire all because of a guy who likes to add a little special sauce to coffee cups, I guess you could say.
It is really gross, actually. This man admitted to ejaculating in his co- worker`s coffee, multiple times.
PINSKY: Why? What is the reason? What went through this young man`s head that he thought this was a good idea?
BARNETT: You know, it is pretty simple. It was like dog marking his territory. He liked this lady. He liked her for a long time. And, he
thought if he like -- you know, put his stuff all over her stuff and in her coffee, she would then like him.
PINSKY: Wait, wait. Vanessa, look at Anneelise. She is dying.
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: I cannot see her. It is really gross. But, get this --
PINSKY: It is beyond -- you have to show her. It is beyond funny, Anneelise. It is gross.
BARNETT: No. It gets worst. It gets really bad, because he was charged with non-consensual sexual contact.
HO: Ew!
PINSKY: Wow.
BARNETT: Charges dropped. He does not have to register as a sex offender or anything because there is this loophole in the law to where if
there is no physical contact, there is no crime. So, he essentially gets off Scott free.
PINSKY: You can argue if she drank the coffee, there was a physical contact.
BARNETT: Yes -- No, she did drink the coffee. She drank it and said that it tasted weird over the last six months. It tasted weird.
GOETZ: Oh, God.
PINSKY: And he say this was his way of showing her affection -- it was clearly not affection but his desire for her?
BARNETT: No, but he likes her. And, he really thought this would somehow get her to like him back.
[22:00:00] PINSKY: Well, all right. DVR us so you can watch Anneelise`s reaction over and over again, because that was the most
entertaining part of that. And, "Forensic Files" begins now.
[22:00:08] END
END
