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Dr. Drew
Mary Kay Letourneau and Younger Husband Reveal Details About Their Ten-Year Marriage; Michael Slager Charged With Murder; New Dash Cam Video Just Released Shows; Slager Had Complaint History; Husband Charged With Rape For Having Sex With His Own Wife
Aired April 09, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:07] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL" SHOW: Tonight, Mary Kay Letourneau and her much, much younger husband reveal details about
their ten-year marriage, their family, that student-teacher sex scandal that shocked the country.
Plus, is it rape when a husband has sex with his own wife merely because she has an Alzheimer`s dementia? We are getting started with breaking
news. Officer Michael Slager is charged with murder after shooting a 50- year-old black man in the back. We have all seen the recording. And, tonight, we have new police dash cam video. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SHOTS FIRED)
MICHAEL THOMAS SLAGER, WHITE SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE OFFICER WHO SHOT A 50- YEAR-OLD BLACK MAN IN THE BACK: 226 to dispatch, shots fired. Subject is down. He grabbed my taser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL THOMAS SLAGER, WHITE SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE OFFICER: Put your hands behind your back now.
(OFFICER HANDCUFFS MR. SCOTT)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The officer comes over and he drops something on the ground next to Mr. Scott, who is lying on ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, Slager, seen here being debriefed by another officer, described a
scuffle, and claimed through an attorney that the 50-year-old fought for his Taser and he felt threatened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: But there is dash cam video from the cruiser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR KEITH SUMMEY, NORTH CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA MAYOR: From what I understand, the video that I saw was not all of the video that exists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: There are multiple dash cam videos from these officers that responded to the shooting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why was he stopped for a busted taillight at 9:30 in the morning? What caused him to exit the vehicle? How did this
confrontation escalate?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us Leeann Tweeden, host of "LA Today" on AM 570 Radio, Jennifer Keitt, life coach; Crystal Wright, Conservative blackchick.com.
New dash cam video just released shows what happened when Slager pulled Mr. Scott over. Again, he alleges that it was a broken brake light or
something. Driving a Mercedes, minding his own business and this is what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER SLAGER: The reason for the stop is your third brake light is out. Do you have insurance on the car?
WALTER SCOTT, A 50-YEAR-OLD BLACK MAN WHO WAS SHOT TO DEATH BY OFFICER SLAGER: No, I do not have insurance on the car. He has it.
OFFICER SLAGER: OK. Well, if you do not have insurance on the car since you bought it, you do not have insurance.
SCOTT: I have not bought it yet. I am saying I have got to do that on Monday.
OFFICER SLAGER: All right, all right. I will be right back with you.
(SLAGER RETURNS TO HIS PATROL CAR. ABOUT 30 SECONDS LATER, SCOTT OPENS HIS DRIVER`S DOOR AND STEPS OUT MOMENTARILY)
OFFICER SLAGER: You have to stay in the car.
(LESS THAN 20 SECONDS LATER, SCOTT OPENS HIS DRIVER`S DORR AGAIN AND RUNS AWAY)
OFFICER SLAGER: (INAUDIBLE): On foot, down Craig Street! Black male. Green shirt. Blue pants. Stop. Taser! Taser! Taser!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jennifer, I see you sadly shaking your head. Why?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Because, Dr. Drew, I think that we are seeing what we have here now is like this culmination of such fear, of such
paralyzation, that people when they are pulled over now, black men especially, do not even know what to do. It is irrational behavior.
The only thing that I can see that can explain it is paralyzing fear. We are not even thinking straight anymore. Because it does not even make any
sense for him to run in a situation like that, even if there was something in his background that the police officer could have found.
PINSKY: Crystal, do you agree?
KEITT: I think that we just --
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Look, I do not agree with what Jennifer is saying. The reason why Walter Scott ran the way he did was
because he knew that he owed child support. He owed back child support. He was scared that when the officer ran the plates and his driver`s license
that he would be arrested for failing to pay child support --
(CROSSTALKS)
PINSKY: But, it is still irrational move, right?
KEITT: (INAUDIBLE)
WRIGHT: Well, let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. So, we all agree, he was savagely murdered like an animal.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: I cannot even watch it. It turns my stomach. But, I think what we need to do is, we all need to take a deep breath and we need to separate
what happened in this case with the awful bad cop, who had a history of going after black men and using excessive force from other -- I feel like
Jennifer is trying to sweep a broad -- that is not why Walter Scott ran away.
KEITT: Well, first of all, we do not --
WRIGHT: So, let us take a deep breath and not excite -- we are exciting -- you know, Jennifer, we are -- I just think that this is an opportunity for
us to be honest what is happening with police in America and black Americans.
But, I really think we have to be careful not to mix apples and oranges. And, I feel like -- that he ran not because he was paralyzed because of the
officer. He ran because he knew what was going to happen.
PINSKY: All right, let us hear what Jennifer got to say.
WRIGHT: He did not deserve to die the way he did.
PINSKY: I hear you, Jennifer. Go ahead.
KEITT: I did not say that he was paralyzed because of the officer. I said that he was paralyzed because of fear. And, it caused a reaction that in
my opinion would not have happened if we have not in this country just this overindulgence of seeing black men being shot down.
[21:05:14] I do not think that it is a situation in which that Walter was thinking straight. I think that what we are thinking now as African-
Americans is that we are all heightenedly aware and fearful of what might happen with an officer`s confrontation. That is all that I am saying.
PINSKY: Let me --
WRIGHT: I am not -- Well, actually, I am not fearful. I am not fearful when a police officer pulls me over. I am not fearful.
KEITT: Well --
PINSKY: Let me ask --
KEITT: But there are many who are. That is all I am saying.
WRIGHT: So, I think that is wrong to say. That is true, young black --
KEITT: But, Jennifer is saying she is. Let me go to Leeann. Here is my question. Where did this tragedy begin? I mean does the tragedy because
the guy bolted or is the tragedy because the cop roust the guy in the Mercedes at 9:00 in the morning or is the tragedy just the cop pulling the
trigger so cold bloodedly later on? Where does this begin?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, HOST OF LA TODAY ON AM 570 RADIO: Well, I think there is a lot of things going on here, Dr. Drew. But, I think the first thing is,
when you are pulled over by a police officer, please just listen to directions. I mean a lot of this would not happen if he did not run,
because the police officer at that moment does not know why he is running.
PINSKY: So, is that the tragedy? Is it the rousting or the running, which is it? or both?
TWEEDEN: Well, I think the running just instigates the cop do something drastic. Now, the video that we are watching now, the man who took this
video said before he actually took out his phone and started videoing that the cop and the man were on the ground wrestling when he seemed to think
the cop was in control.
But, obviously, when he started filming, they were both standing up again. You can almost hear the Taser going off. I have even heard in the video,
if you zoom in, you can see the Taser -- it is stuck in his back as he is running. So, the guy is continually running.
Yes, he was murdered savagely. That cop should pay for that, because that is not what you do for a man that is running away. I do not think when he
says, "I was in fear for my life," maybe in the time that they were wrestling on the ground he felt that way, because he was confronted and
there was physical altercation.
But, the video that we do see, we do not see that. But, I am saying, the guy should just listen to the policeman. Just please listen and do what
they say. And, do not run. And, if you owe child support, which that is what I read to, then you are going to have to own up to it.
WRIGHT: Yes.
PINSKY: Now, Officer Slager`s mother just spoke to ABC News a few -- just a short time ago. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN SHARPE, MOTHER OF SOUTH CAROLINA POLICE OFFICER MICHAEL SLAGER: I cannot imagine him. He loved being a police officer. I cannot imagine him
doing something that -- it is just not like him. That is not his character.
I just -- I just have to let it be and hope God takes care of everybody involved. Not only my family, but the Scott family. Because I know they
are grieving just like I am grieving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Supporters of this officer tried to set up a GoFundMe page. The site rejected them. They went to another crowdfunding site, Indiegogo.
They raised now over $1200. Crystal, good idea? Crowdfunding? This is a tragedy top to bottom. But, we all -- it is hard to support or imagine
people supporting what this officer did.
WRIGHT: Yes. I think it is disgusting for them to do a crowd funding for this police officer. I mean it is like pay for your own legal fees. And,
I think one of the sites, Dr. Drew, removed -- what was it? GoFundMeNow or something --
PINSKY: Yes. They took it down.
WRIGHT: -- they took down the account.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: You know, but when I watch the mother -- here is what I will say to the mom. She knows her son when he does not have a uniform on. And, I
had this very conversation with my hairdresser last week.
And, we both -- you know, there are some people, bad police officers, who when they put on a police -- you know, if they put on their uniform, they
think it gives them license to kill.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: I will agree, you know? And, I think that this is the problem. She does not know her son when he has a uniform on.
PINSKY: In fact, I am going to speak to a psychologist and attorney in a few minutes, who does evaluations on police officers. And, he is going to
tell us what kinds of officers are likely to behave like that.
And, how the police department calls them out. I have also got a man who says he was tasered by that officer, Officer Slager, and tells his story.
Later on, we have Mary Kay Letourneau, back in the news ten years after she married her sixth-grade student. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was another fight at the entrance to this area.
GWEN NICHOLS, There was. I do not know if it was a fight, but it was a tussle. When I came to the corner of the advance auto parking lot and saw
them, it was a tussle. And, then, like before what you saw on the videotape, there was like a little tussle over there, like at the end of
that gate down there.
TODD: Were they on the ground rolling? What were they doing?
NICHOLS: No, it was not on the ground rolling. It was like -- like a tussle type of thing like, you know? Like, what do you want or what did I
do type of thingy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That woman spoke exclusively to CNN. She witnessed the confrontation between Slager and Scott just prior to the shooting. I am
back with Leeann, Jennifer and Crystal.
And, breaking news, we have new police dash cam video showing what happened minutes prior to Mr. Scott being shot in the back five times. Leeann, the
eyewitness we just saw says police have not spoken to her to collect her story.
Does that surprise you? Or she maybe not come forward? Or maybe people are afraid to come forward?
TWEEDEN: Well, I mean if she is talking to CNN, of course the police should talk to her. You should take all eyewitness accounts into account.
And, I think that is surprising. I think right now that the police department is probably reeling from all of this.
And, they are calling for a lot of people`s heads over this. But, you know, he needs a fair trial. And, I know I think they are saying that the
death penalty might be at play here too if he gets convicted. So, there is a lot of things going on.
[21:15:03] PINSKY: It is true. Now, on the phone I got Brian Russell. Brian is a forensic psychologist. He is an attorney and a psychologists.
And, Brian, my understanding is you do psychological evaluations on police officers and a small percentage fall out.
What happens? What characteristics do you find in the ones that maybe cannot contain their aggressions or maybe are being police officers for
reasons they do not understand but are not the right reasons?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: That is the problem, Drew. Most police officers, the vast majority in fact, go into it for the right
reasons. They have a very strong sense of duty to protect and serve.
There is a small subset and we are talking low single digit percentages here, though, who the reason they want to be cops is so that they can have
a socially acceptable outlet for aggression. A way to let aggression out in a way that society will accept and tolerate.
And, so the problem is what makes those folks so dangerous is that when they get in a situation where there might need to be lethal force used,
rather than doing like most of the cops would do, which would be to try to find a way out of the situation without going to that level, they are
looking for an excuse to go to that level, which is why it is so important to try to screen those people out.
PINSKY: And, Crystal, I think you would agree, that sounds like a very familiar profile for what we were looking at here. We all look at it and
we go, "What the hell? Why did not he try some other means to deescalate this -- jog after this guy that is running in slow motion. Throw the
nightstick. Get the Taser going in. Call for support."
WRIGHT: Call backup.
PINSKY: Lethal force, and it felt when you look at it like a gratifying experience rather than a frantic for him.
WRIGHT: Well, exactly, Dr. Drew. Every time I watch the video, it is just like Officer Slager just keeps going after -- going after Walter Scott, who
is clearly running far, far away from him. There is no turning around or aggression at all.
And, I think that we know from his record that his supervisor -- in one of his reviews, Officer Slager was warned about his traffic stops. Now, we do
not have any other detail. But it suggests that he was too aggressive in the traffic stops and maybe used Tasers.
And, then we know in 2013, he also -- he was out to get a suspect and he rammed into someone`s home. I think the gentleman was named Mr. Givens,
looking for Mr. givens` brother. They were not even the same height. And, he used the Taser on Mr. Givens, who said that --
PINSKY: I want to ask --
WRIGHT: You know? So --
PINSKY: Crystal, I want to ask -- Crystal, I think that there may have a comment from that guy. Is that who we have? -- In control room, can you
tell me? Yes. So, it is Mario Givens. He filed a criminal complaint against Officer Slager as Crystal said in 2013 because of the use of
tasering for no reason. Here he is. Take a look.
MARIO GIVENS, BLACK RESIDENT OF NORTH CHARLESTON WHO FILED CRIMINAL COMPLAINT AGAINST OFFICER SLAGER: He beat on the door. He did not say
nothing. He just started trying to grab me out the house. Well, he brought the taser out like I would not come out.
So, he pulled the Taser out. The black officer still had a hold of him. And, he was like, "Come out the house or I am going to tase you. So, I
threw my hands up. And, he still Tased me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Jennifer, the officer was exonerated for his behavior, even though it was concerning. It still goes to the point I think you were
making at the outside of the show.
KEITT: Well, you know what, Dr. Drew? I think that it is really interesting that we want to study the psychological well-being of the
police officers. But, we are not talking about the psychological well- being of African-Americans being pulled over. That is where I was going with this. That it takes two to tango in this regard.
Yes, he ran. But why did he run? A warrant on child support in my opinion is not enough to warrant that kind of behavior like that. I think we have
to have a broader conversation. Yes, the psychological well-being of the officer is, absolutely, critical.
And, in this case, obviously, with his history, it is very relevant. But, it is also important to talk about the psychological ramifications of
seeing men being gunned down as we have seen in 2014 and now in 2015 and that -- on the psychy of African-American male in particular.
PINSKY: All right. Crystal, I am seeing a big sigh. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: I think what happened to Mr. Scott is so tragic, words cannot even express it. However, I think ten different times in South Carolina he was
arrested, I believe, for failing to pay child support. So, I disagree, you know, respectfully with you, Jennifer, in that.
And, I think he was arrested in 1987 for something else. He did not deserve to die the way he, you know -- it is just was not warranted. The
police department in North Charleston failed to capture the fact that we have an aggressive, awful cop. OK?
PINSKY: They have not -- Again, this is -- one of the things that bothers me, I got to tell you. Yesterday, I was hearing, Crystal, "No justice, no
peace," again. And, are not we seeing justice in this particular case?
[21: 20:05] WRIGHT: Yes.
PINSKY: I mean they are firing the guy.
WRIGHT: Definitely.
PINSKY: They have charged him with murder. Justice is playing out.
WRIGHT: Yes. We are seeing swift justice. We are saying swift justice --
KEITT: We are.
WRIGHT: -- because I think it is cut and dry.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: I think we have clear evidence that Mr. Scott was hunted down like a dog -- like a mad dog.
PINSKY: And, Jennifer, to your point, does not this go at that issue? Sort of, "Hey, we will not tolerate this." You can feel secure, not maybe
-- I understand you may want to take a bee, but you are secure in that the people are paying very serious attention to this.
KEITT: In this one instance. And, I agree with you, it is beginning the conversation, beginning to turn the tide. But, we still have to see how
this is all going to play out.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: The dash cam video was just released today. We got a whole story that needs to come together --
PINSKY: Leeann, last thoughts.
KEITT: -- before we can know that we can breathe.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree. Leeann.
TWEEDEN: I think I was most disappointed, Dr. Drew, when I see that video over and over again was, this guys -- he did not even try to help him. He
put handcuffs on him.
PINSKY: That is a while other thing.
TWEEDEN: He already shot him five times.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: But, just the fact that he did not try to give him CPR or anything, is so disturbing to me.
PINSKY: Yes. That caught my eye too.
TWEEDEN: I mean and then another cop is looking at him. It is like, "Is anybody going to try anything?"
PINSKY: Leeann, I cannot agree more. I have thoughts about that, which is that I have been in an emergency room where the police have brought in --
listen, there is a whole version of humanity out there that 99.9 percent of the population has never been exposed to.
There are really violent criminals out there, who when you are around them, it is like being around a wild animal. It is wild when you see these
people. They are not many, but they are amongst us here and there. And, I would see the cops going into slow motion around those guys sometimes.
Now, it is an ethical issue. People -- The doctors need to do their job. The cops need to do their job. They have to save the life of someone who
maybe just moments before was behaving in a savage manner. They have to do it. I have seen them go in slow motion.
That is not what this is. That is not what this guy was. And, for them to go in slow motion with this guy is confusing and disturbing. Exactly like
Leeann is saying, Why did not they step it up a little bit and let us get this guy save? I mean you get shot in the chest. You can be saved, but
time is of the essence.
Next up, a husband is charged with rape for having sex with his own wife. His own wife. What? Well, she has Alzheimer`s. We will get into it.
And, later, Mary Kay Letourneau and her husband go public with what their life has been like since they got married ten years ago. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:26:24] UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Was it rape when a 78-year-old man had sex with his 78-year-old wife? Prosecutors in Iowa say, "Yes." And,
that is because the woman who suffered from dementia and Alzheimer`s disease could not consent to having sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: Think about if that was your mom and you thought your mom was being victimized by your stepfather.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: There is, actually, nothing here that suggests that this man meant any harm to his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: This guy was told that your wife cannot consent to sex. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Most people over a certain age are not going to be able to have sex with their spouses. They are not going to be able to.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Because impairments are very, very common as you get older. What are we going to do with that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: People with Alzheimer`s, sometimes they cannot speak, they cannot remember what they had for breakfast, but they can play the piano and often
guess what? They still enjoy eating and they still enjoy having sex.
(END VIDEO CLIP).
PINSKY: Back with Leeann, Jennifer, Crystal and a segment we call, "Seriously?" It is about a 78-year-old man who could face ten years in
prison for merely having sexual relations with his own wife because she had dementia and has been deemed unable to render consent.
My question, Jennifer, shall we add directives about sexual activity for -- into our directive to physicians if we should become impaired? And, how
impaired shall we be before that directive has to go into place?
KEITT: I would love to hug you right now, Dr. Drew, if I could. Because that is exactly what I was thinking. I have been married almost 30 years
and in my end of life directive, it does not state whether or not my husband can have sex with me if I develop dementia. I absolutely,
unequivocally, believe this is a sliding slope.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: He should not be in jail for this.
PINSKY: Thank you. I was afraid where you were going with this. Good. OK. Good.
KEITT: Here is my directive right now. I want my husband to have sex with me even if I do not know his name. That is fine.
PINSKY: Thank you.
KEITT: If I am in that case.
PINSKY: I will give him a call after the show. Crystal, anything wrong with that? Can the government stay out of our business?
WRIGHT: You know, Dr. Drew, I have a grandmother who died of Alzheimer`s. It is a very painful illness to watch. And, we all know, as you pointed
out, sometimes Alzheimer`s patients are very cogent. They have moments of great clarity.
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: They recognize their loved ones. They can make decisions. Music seems to stimulate memory.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
WRIGHT: But, I am conflicted by this. Because you know, according to the news reports about this man, he was asked by the family and the caregivers
in the nursing home, they agreed that, "Look, we think you are -- we are unsure whether your wife is consenting. We are asking you not to have sex
with her."
A week later, he comes back in the nursing home. He has sex in the room with her roommate, you know? -- I guess, you know, does the curtain
partition thing. And, then he throws underwear in the hamper as he walks out, a week after he was asked to cool it. So, I do not know, I am
conflicted about it --
PINSKY: He was asked to cool it --
WRIGHT: -- if this was my mother --
PINSKY: Go ahead. If this is your mother?
WRIGHT: Well, if this was my mother, I would have some conflicted feelings. Do I think that he should go spend ten years in jail? Probably
not.
PINSKY: Probably not? Is not that the most sad indictment of what we are doing with our citizens, if we have to take a couple who is a loving
couple. I mean it is one thing to sort of have some sort of consequence, but to put a vital guy who is losing his wife -- it is so --
WRIGHT: But, how are you so sure -- But, Dr. Drew, how are you so sure? You speak with such authority that you seem to know this woman was
consenting to sex. We do not know. And, if that was my mother, I would be conflicted.
[21:30:00] PINSKY: Listen. My understanding is her mental status exam was profoundly impaired. There is no doubt about that. And, we have to
really think about what we consider to be consenting when somebody is cognitive -- when their brain`s are declining.
When this part of the brain, the part where you are making decisions, is decaying. It happens to all of us as we get older. Where are we going to
draw the line here? It is so ridiculous.
And, by the way, if she can decide that she wants ice cream and not cake, maybe she can also decide what she wants to do with her body with somebody
who she has been in love with for years.
KEITT: For years.
WRIGHT: Alzheimer`s, as you well know -- I do not know if you had loved ones with Alzheimer`s. I think that there is --
PINSKY: I have treated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of patients. Hundreds of hundreds.
WRIGHT: I think this is a gray area. And, I do not -- I would probably be like those daughters protecting their mom. I would have questions. OK?
Look, I do not have a --
PINSKY: Questions are one things. Sending a guy away for ten years. Leeann, I have not heard your opinion. I want to hear what you have to
say.
TWEEDEN: You know, I am very conflicted as well, because my first initial thought was, "Well, OK, they are almost 80 and he is still having sex with
his wife. Good for them." But, the situation was is that we know that his stepdaughters, the daughters from the wife`s previous marriage, put her in
a home because she has dementia.
PINSKY: Reasonable.
TWEEDEN: And like you said -- reasonable, right? She needs care around the clock --
PINSKY: Why did the daughters -- his stepchildren get -- take away his privileges as a husband?
WRIGHT: Exactly. Exactly.
TWEEDEN: Well, I do not know, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Is that because he is an abusive husband?
TWEEDEN: But, wait, hold on, Dr. Drew. You and I talked about this on this show before. We have talked about this on your Podcast and you hate
it when people tell you as a doctor what they think that you should tell them. Right?
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
TWEEDEN: You get mad at that. You are like, "Wait, I am just the doctor. You would not tell a plumber how to come into your house and fix your
pipes.? Right?
PINSKY: Right. That is right. That is right.
TWEEDEN: So, when a doctor -- when a board gets together and tells him, we do not think she is in the mental state to do it, does not that tell you
something that maybe we do not know, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: No. Absolutely. Listen -- It is possible. It is possible. It is just outrageous --
TWEEDEN: Do I think he should go way for ten years? I think that is crazy.
PINSKY: That is crazy.
TWEEDEN: But, I think he should also respects that too. And, to do it with somebody else in the room, throw the panties away, I feel like he did
it to spite them.
PINSKY: But, who is them to say that they know what is best for that woman?
KEITT: Exactly.
PINSKY: It is a nursing home.
TWEEDEN: They are the doctors. I think they know more than anybody else.
PINSKY: Well, I do not know he talked to doctors. I heard that he talked to nursing and administration and they had concerns. Mostly
administration, they are concerned with their own legal liability and exposure.
That the daughters who are saber rattling are going to say, "You better protect my mom from that abusive man," where he scares. I am just saying.
I know how nurse -- I have been -- I spent decades seeing patients -- demented patients in nursing home. I know what they are --
TWEEDEN: Sometimes they are impaired and sometimes they are not, right?
PINSKY: But, this woman had severe, severe, severe dementia.
TWEEDEN: Right.
PINSKY: And these nursing homes are on the line for elder abuse all the time. It is a scary, scary job. And, that is why they came down on this
guy. I guarantee you. What was right for this couple was not what was the priority. I guarantee you.
Hang on, I got to go to break. Hold it. Hold it. It could be a legal nightmare here. So, let us talk about later Mary Kay Letourneau and her
former student, now parents of two teenage daughters.
We are going to talk about their marriage and family life. But, we are going to be right back with a little more on this nursing home case when we
get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:37:22] UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Henry Rayhons is facing third- degree sexual abuse charges for allegedly having sex with his wife while she suffered from dementia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is a loving couple. She developed a cognitive disturbance. And, the attorney gets a great idea. I am going to prosecute the husband
for rape because he has had sex with his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOETZ: when the justice system got involve and needed to appoint a guardian for her --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: They did not choose this loving husband that we are all talking about --
PINSKY: Yes.
GOETZ: -- they chose her daughters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HO: Guess what? If both of them are slightly deteriorating, this is one way that people can still connect with each other. It does not matter if
she cannot verbally say yes, that is pleasurable.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: Yes, I like that. She could still feel it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Leeann, Jennifer and Crystal. And, Crystal, you get what I was going at the end of that last block? Which is that I do not
know we heard from doctors here. And I know how hard the work is in nursing homes and the massive liability.
It is no longer just malpractice. It is also something called elder abuse. People go to prison just trying to take care of elder patients. Attorneys
do this all the time now. And, I just think this is another one of those cases, that is what concerns me.
WRIGHT: Well, I am no defender of nursing homes, because you know my grandmother while she was in a fairly good nursing home, the staff in
nursing homes -- you know, they have an education -- maybe a high school education, Dr. Drew. We can talk about abuse that goes on in nursing homes
like for another show.
But, I think the point is that your guests pointed out in a previous show, is that when it was time to pick a guardian for this woman, it was one of
her daughters that was chosen.
PINSKY: Unless they --
WRIGHT: What I really want to say at the end of the day --
PINSKY: Go ahead. Go ahead.
WRIGHT: -- what I just want to say is, there are a lot of other ways to express love than sex. And, I think what bothers me a little bit about our
conversation, Dr. Drew, there is a huge emphasis on sexual intercourse. You know, when people have Alzheimer`s, they want to be touched. They want
to be hugged. They want to be talked to like they are still --
PINSKY: Yes.
WRIGHT: -- because we do not know what is going on.
PINSKY: Right.
WRIGHT: You do not know, right?
PINSKY: Right. On some cases.
WRIGHT: And, you are putting all this emphasis on sex.
PINSKY: Well, listen --
WRIGHT: I mean it bothers me, tremendously.
PINSKY: I understand. But, you have an N of 1. You have a case of one that you have been involved with. I have dealt with hundreds and hundreds.
WRIGHT: And, I have seen others with -- and I have seen others with the illness. And, all I am saying is that I have a right to my truth as you
have a right to your truth.
PINSKY: I do not know what that means exactly, Crystal, but as a clinician --
WRIGHT: Well, truth is more than science. And, we do not -- science is inconclusive on Alzheimer`s, Dr. Drew. My truth is my perspective is what
I meant just like yours.
PINSKY: OK. Fair enough. You have a perspective on this.
WRIGHT: And, I just think there is a gray -- you know, a gray area.
PINSKY: OK. Jennifer, you and I are the only ones that deal with these guys. And, you know, you and I have a sense that people still like to eat.
They still like to music. They like playing the piano even when they cannot talk. And, we just want to be able to be really clear about
sustaining a quality of life as long as possible. That is all we are trying to do.
[21:40:12] KEITT: And, I think, what I am concerned about is that this one snapshot, this one sexual act -- and by the way, the curtains were
closed. So, nobody knows exactly what took place behind those curtains. But that one sexual act has just disregarded their entire marriage
together.
They got married. This is a second marriage. And, the girls were on board, the daughters were on board for the marriage. And, I am saying that
marriage is a culmination of activity. It is a culmination of days.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: And, so, how do we know she would not want that --
PINSKY: Right.
KEITT: -- even if she was unable to express it?
PINSKY: Listen -- the reason we can sit and argue about this is we do not know. And, that this is a complicated issue. But it is something we
surely better comes to terms with, because cognitive impairments are going to be extremely common, probably amongst all of us in this panel within our
20, 30 years, amongst tens of millions of us in America. Leeann, you want to make a comment.
TWEEDEN: Well, Dr. Drew, I want to ask you as the clinician, is not it sometimes when people have dementia or Alzheimer`s that sometimes there is
moments of clarity and sometimes there is not, right?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
TWEEDEN: What if he is having sexual relations with his wife when she is having one of those moments and she comes to or she kind of comes to and
she is not in a clear moment and she panics?
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: I mean is not it your job as a physician or the people looking over them to protect the weak, to protect those that cannot protect
themselves?
PINSKY: Yes, that is where this is coming from.
TWEEDEN: Right.
PINSKY: Absolutely, that is true. And, this woman has a very --
TWEEDEN: So, you are just saying, "Oh, he is her husband. So, it is always going to be OK?
PINSKY: No. I am not.
TWEEDEN: When is it not OK?
PINSKY: Well, that is what is -- Crystal, you are laughing because everyone is coming down on me now. That is what is at issue here. That is
in fact what is -- When is it OK to give -- when can somebody actually render consent when they are impaired? It is a very complicated issue.
And, again, as we are trying to do is help people sustain a quality of life. I know that people that work with people with Alzheimer`s patient
now are trying to free restraint. That is their freedom from restraint is what they try to emphasize now.
Which means, you do not get the same meal that is pureed every day. You try to get from the Alzheimer`s patient what it is they would like, what
would make them happy. What music -- try to find ways to communicate and to get spontaneous information from the patient.
Some patients become hypersexual when they are in the demented state. That does happen. Is that still something we should allow to sort of play out
or should we try to contain it? It is something we have to really struggle with.
And, then what is the level of impairment after which somebody can no longer render consent? I guarantee you it is not two glasses of wine, the
way it is in this state. So, it is something we have to really think hard about.
OK. Mary Kay Letourneau, the teacher who had an affair with her sixth- grade student. We will check in with that couple, so-called, on their 10th anniversary with their teenage daughters. Follow us on Facebook for more
on this story and others. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:47:02] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She was his sixth-grade teacher. He was her 12-year-old student. By the time Vili Fualaau was 13, 35-year-
old Mary Kay Letourneau was pregnant with his child. She pleaded guilty to child rape and spent 80 days behind bars.
But, just weeks after her release, she became pregnant again. Letourneau was sent back to jail, this time for seven years. Ten months after her
release, the headline making lovers married.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Leeann, Jennifer, Crystal and "WTF," a story dominating Twitter and Facebook, Mary Kay Letourneau. Some of you may remember her.
Some of you may need to be refreshed about this story and her now husband Vili Fualaau are about to mark ten years of marriage.
She is now 53. He is 31. ABC`s 20/20 talks to them tomorrow night. She is a convicted sex offender, but trying to remove her name off the sex
offender registry. I want to show you some footage of her speaking to Larry King in 2006. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, LATE NIGHT TALK SHOW HOST: When did you know it was love, Mary?
MARY KAY LETOURNEAU, FORMER SCHOOLTEACHER WHO MARRIED HER 6TH GRADE STUDENT: Well, I definitely knew it was when we first came together. We
would not have come together if it was not. I knew if there was a relationship while I was his teacher that it was really against -- I do not
know, kind of a code of ethics. There was not anything in my mind that thought this say felony and you are risking your children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: A couple of quick things on this. Please, everybody. That woman is so underdeveloped -- cognitively, but emotionally underdeveloped that
she would not be able to understand that her as an adult is doing something problematic, ethically and legally, with a sixth grader.
That means she, herself, is at about that age of development and does not really perceive a difference. And, let us be clear Crystal, these women
that act out on these lucky young males, the male outcome is poor. They have criminal behaviors. They have substance abuse. They have mood
disturbances. Very commonly. Should she be removed from the sex offender registry?
WRIGHT: Can I say hell no? Because that is how I feel.
PINSKY: Yes. You can.
TWEEDEN: Yes!
WRIGTH: OK. I said it, right?
PINSKY: You sure can. Yes.
WRIGHT: But, I agree with you. While I was watching that, Dr. Drew, I was like, am I watching a 16-year-old?
PINSKY: Right.
WRIGHT: Because her mental and emotional development -- I remember this case. And, I was thinking to myself, "Oh, my gosh, what teacher could
possibly think it was right to have sex with a sixth grader, who she taught by the way in second grade, Dr. Drew." And, oh, she had four kids by her
previous marriage. And, she wants to teach again. No, no, no.
PINSKY: Jennifer, what do you say?
KEITT: No teaching again. I am curious as to him being 31 years old now and them tracking along for 12 years. What in the world is going on in the
marriage, in the relationship? I am so pro-family, I want to see to find something good here.
[21:50:07] PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: Although, in my mind, I know for a fact, something went wrong, terribly wrong.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
KEITT: But then it could not it have been corrected?
PINSKY: Well -- That is a big question. But, here is the deal. They have two teenage daughters now. And, on their behalf, do not we need to wish
this couple stability and ongoing success? Let us be clear, though. It is not successful for this kid. As you might predict, guess what? Alcohol
problems, mood problems, Leeann. Shocking, shocking. Right, Leeann.
TWEEDEN: It is disgusting, Dr. Drew. What she did was disgusting. She was a child predator. You know, she did, she taught him in second grade.
She had him in sixth grade. I mean what adult woman, A. Finds a 12 or 13- year-old boy, who is -- he probably has not even -- his voice has not changed at that point yet that she finds a relationship with him.
Look, we know at the time if you remember that case, she was separated from her husband. So, she was obviously emotionally distraught from that. And,
then you can see from this, Dr. Drew, that she is obviously mentally disturbed, period.
PINSKY: Right. Right. Yes.
TWEEDEN: But, the fact that she -- they had two children. She got pregnant the second time she got oust prison when she was not supposed to
have contact with him.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: The fact that they are still together, OK, great, fine. They are dealing with their issues, but for her to be taken off the sex offender
list, absolutely not.
PINSKY: Absolutely not. Yes. We, all of us, agree she should not be off that list. And, she is underdeveloped. This is what happens when people
have trauma, as they are developing they get stuck at that stage of development. And, then they do not see -- their self concept is often very
much at that same level of development.
TWEEDEN: But then she stunted his development and then they had two children.
KEITT: That is what I am going to say.
PINSKY: Of course they did. And, now, guess what? He has a mood disturbance. He has alcoholism. But, they are out to prove something to
the world. They are going to stay together. Well, OK. Stay together on behalf of those teenagers. The girls look reasonably OK.
Next up, this is not the only case of forbidden love we will talk about. There is another couple expecting a baby. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:56:15] KING: The daughters are how old?
VILI FUALAAU, FORMER SIXTH GRADER STUDENT OF MARY KAY LETOURNEAU: Nine And Seven.
KING: Right. So, do they both know this whole story?
FUALAAU: They know their mommy is older than daddy.
LETOURNEAU: I feel they have a healthy understanding both of them. They know that daddy was too young, and we could not get married and there was a
rule that was broken and mommy went for a time-out -- a long time-out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. It sounds like she is speaking to herself like she is a 5- year-old. I am back with Leeann, Jennifer and Crystal. Those girls today are 16 and 17. That photo from Facebook when Mary Kay Letourneau was asked
how she explain their relationship to her daughters.
She told Barbara Walters, quote, "Well, there never was a sit chat. They seemed to already know because they grew up with it. Never been a, `Wow,
we better explain this`." I am telling you -- Crystal, I am just baffled by how we still can look at experiences like this and adult males can go,
"Oh, that guy, lucky dude, when he was 12."
WRIGHT: Well, you hit the nail on the head. Adult males do that because Hollywood celebrates when younger women marry older men. I am not taking
up for Mary Kay Letourneau at all. She is a pedophile is really what she is. And, she got mental impairments. But, you know, there is a double
standard when it comes to older women dating younger men of appropriate age, which this is not. Right?
PINSKY: No, not at all. Now, Sarah Jones, a former NFL cheerleader is accused of sexually abusing a 17-year-old student at the high school where
she taught. They are now married. She is pregnant. Jennifer, similar story, but the age different is not quite as pronounced, disgusting,
whatever adjective you would like to use. But, it does not feel much better.
KEITT: No, it does not feel much better . I think what bothers me in the first case is that obviously she was a teacher --
PINSKY: Well, this was a teacher, too. No, this is the same thing.
KEITT: Well, I guess in my mind I just -- I just continue to see my son as a sixth grader.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: And, In my mind, it just is unimaginable.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: And, so, in this case, I am not excusing underage sex in this kind of regard. But, 17, if I had to choose, and that sounds terrible --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
KEITT: -- you know what I am saying? I would go with the 17-year-old. At least maybe --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. No. I agree with you.
TWEEDEN: How about waiting, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: No, Leeann, I am all for that. Just think about what a 12-year- old is. Those are children for the most part.
TWEEDEN: Yes.
KEITT: That is my point.
PINSKY: They may start to look like adults, but they are children. But, ultimately, what this is a story of is the misappropriation of authority.
TWEEDEN: Exactly, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: What I always say Leeann is big people take care of little people. That is the very fabric of how humans survive and how societies function
and are built. And, we do not even get that right.
TWEEDEN: Right. Exactly. That is what we are suppose to do. You as doctors, our teachers, people with authority that we are supposed to trust.
I mean these little kids they trust families, their parents and then they trust their teachers. Because we spend a lot of time with our teachers
growing up because they teach us in the classroom most of the day.
PINSKY: Imagine your son, Leeann getting -- can you imagine?
TWEEDEN: Dr. Drew, I would probably be put in jail for murder.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: And, that is the honest to God truth. And, I have had that conversation with Chris and he said you will probably go away. I said,
well, they will have to convict me. A trial of my peers will have to convict me of that.
PINSKY: Unfortunately, I think we live in a time when it would happen. And, yet I would feel only -- you cannot take law into your own hands.
TWEEDEN: I know.
[21:59:49] PINSKY: But, I would feel sympathetic to you so much so that it is hard for me even to speak about it. I get very incense when people
in positions of authority misappropriate that. The people that need that protection the most are the ones that get victimized.
[22:01:00] TWEEDEN: You know that -- remember that she kept looking at?
PINSKY: I know.
TWEEDEN: It is so weird.
PINSKY: It is so weird. "Forensic Files" begins now.
END
