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Dr. Drew
: Girlfriend Shot Lawyer Boyfriend; Man Who Had Sex with Wife with Dementia. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 16, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:09]
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, police say a naked Twister sex party with teenagers was hosted by a former Mormon Sunday schoolteacher who
happened to party with them. Now she has lost custody of her five children and is facing charges.
Plus, the dementia sex case takes a new turn. Will a husband be sent to prison for having had sex with his own wife?
Let`s get started with the most tweeted story of the night, promising young attorney shot dead by his on again-off again girlfriend. Her attorney says
this 911 call proves it was self-defense. They both reach for the gun. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for calling 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did you kill him with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gun, a loaded gun in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you been injured?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not injured, ma`am. I was thrown into the side of the couch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m standing about ten feet away from his dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you sure that he`s dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s dead, ma`am. He`s completely dead. Ma`am, his body was twitching and I knew he was going to die anyway and he was making
funny noises so I shot him a couple more to kill him because I knew he would have been.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry, you said you shot him a couple more times after that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many times did you shoot him total?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you shot him instead of calling 911?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? (END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining us, Sam shocker, Poptrigger@hulu.com, Danine Mannette, criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate betrayal" and Anahita
Sedaghattar, defense attorney, legal counsel to the Cochrane firm.
Shayna Huber killed Ryan Postin with six bullets, two shots to the head, two shots to the chest, one arm, one in the back. Danine, this is one of
the craziest stories I`ve ever seen. Strangely, this one bothers me more at the outset than Jodi did.
DANINE MANNETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: It`s so interesting that she is really trying to put this self defence thing out there. I mean that is
such a joke to me. When you have a self-defense argument or a stance, you have to use reasonable force with what was presented towards you. Like if
someone spits on you, you can`t like stab them or if someone throws a book at you, you can`t cut them up with an axe. So if this guy really did push
her and then she gets up and fires six shots at him, two in the head --
PINSKY: Wait, Anahita, you`re actually shaking your head at what Danine --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
PINSKY: Are you saying that if somebody spits in your direction, you can go ahead and chop their head off?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATTAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s not what I`m saying, but I`m taking issue, Dr. Drew, with the fact there are all these comparisons
between this case and the Jodi arias case. This isn`t Jodi Arias part two. In fact, I think there are so many differences between the two cases.
First and foremost this girl called 911 shortly after the killing and confessed.
PINSKY: Confessed or tried to build her case. She called her mother first.
SEDAGHATTAR: Look at some of the other evidence. She didn`t try to clean up the crime scene. She didn`t try to get rid of the gun. And her story,
Dr. Drew, has been consistent from day one. Unlike Jodi who I think her story changed three, four, five times. First it was ninjas, then it was
some armed masked men. I mean I think a lot of these factors actually work in her favor. This is not going to be Jodi Arias part two.
PINSKY: Sam?
SAM SCHACHER, HOST "POP TRIGGER": Yes, because probably she learned a thing or two from watching the Jodi Arias trial.
PINSKY: Right. (INAUDIBLE) and moving it forward.
SCHACHER: You don`t wait 10 to 15 minutes to call 911. You don`t call your mom first. Not only that the evidence on that crime scene in the
living room does not corroborate with the story that she told the 911 operator. The police chief testified. He said it didn`t look like that
there was any signs of her being slammed into the couch. She didn`t have any injuries. The living room looked like it was in place. I don`t buy
her story at all.
PINSKY: And the victim`s neighbors testified they heard all six gunshots and, "something hit the knorr. It sounded like somebody`s body." Shayna,
whom you`re seeing there, talked about the neighbors in her police interrogation. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAYNA HUBERS: I`m scared because I know what happened.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: Right.
HUBERS: I have no witnesses. The back door was open. I don`t know what the neighbors heard. They saw him throw me. They`re going to say yes, I
saw him throw her on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Anahita, she`s convinced the neighbors are going to come to her defense and corroborate her point of view. But apparently, on the
stand, they did not. They heard crying but never saw any fighting.
SEDAGHATTAR: Dr. Drew, how many times have I come on up show and said that you should not speak to the police without an attorney unless you have an
attorney present especially when you are being accused of murder?
PINSKY: Is she not a nightmare case?
SEDAGHATTAR: It`s a nightmare case and those words are going to be used against her. But I don`t think that police interrogation tape is damning.
I`m sorry I think it can help her.
PINSKY: Well, her attorney argues that the witness testimony does back the self defense claim.
Listen.
[21:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MEJIA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They heard two shots and then four shots in rapid succession, bang-bang, and then four more in rapid succession. They
would have you believe that she shot from across the room in cold blood and came around and shot him as he lay on the floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, but we heard her say on the tape, Danine, that she shot him and then shot him four more times because he was twitching.
MANNETTE: That is the problem that I have with this case. It`s like, OK, when you use self-defense, you use that to neutralize the threat. So those
two first two shots neutralize the threat. OK. I`ll give her those, perhaps. But then she became Dr. Kevorkian. I mean, at what point does
your self defense argument turn into an ability to execute euthanasia on somebody? That`s the problem.
PINSKY: Right. Wouldn`t -- Danine, back me up --
MANNETTE: Those four shots are the problem.
PINSKY: Danine, would the average person, if they`re in -- let`s say they do something in self-defense even if they have sort of some awareness
they`re doing it, they shoot and then go, "oh, my god, what have I done?" They run around and call 911 and do what they could to clean it up.
MANNETTE: She finishes him off.
PINSKY: Anahita, what do you mean it`s not true? I can`t imagine finishing somebody off.
SEDAGHATTAR: Dr. Drew, you should know, there is no one way that somebody react in a traumatic situation. How can you say this is what an innocent
person would do? You can`t.
PINSKY: No, I`m not saying innocent. I`m saying it`s bizarre that she would insist on finishing him off. I`ve never heard of such a thing.
SEDAGHATTAR: No, that`s not true.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What?
SEDAGHATTAR: It happens frequently in battered women cases. I`m not saying she`s a battered woman. If she is, if the evidence showed that she
was an abused woman, I can tell you they stab, stab, stab, they shoot, shoot, shoot until the threat it abated in their mind.
PINSKY: Anahita, you`re just scaring the heck out of me. But I tell you what, I`m going to torture you some more with more of her interrogation
tape. Take a look at this.
SEDAGHATTAR: Let`s do it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He was dying. I shot him once and didn`t shoot again for a while, but I was watching him die. It was painful to watch him die a, and to know
that I had done that. But I just walked around the table and shot him where I knew he would die immediately and fast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right, counselor, let me talk about --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.
PINSKY: Let me talk about this woman`s personality functioning and her thinking. So she -- she realizes she did this, so it`s painful to her to
see him in that misery so she needs to put herself out of that pain by stopping him from twitching anymore. This is a really sick person. I`m
sorry. If this is what happened, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, but if this is the way she thinks, this is a really severe borderline personality
where everything is out there but it`s all her.
SEDAGHATTAR: That helps the defense, doesn`t it, Dr. Drew? If you were the expert witness.
PINSKY: Yes, if you want to make some sort of mental health claim in this, OK.
SEDAGHATTAR: I mean, you just said it. She seems borderline. If anything that`s a mitigating factor --
PINSKY: All right. It`s a mitigating factor but it`s not an explanation. She should have gotten help for her borderline disorder. The (INAUDIBLE)
with the sex, the inability to tolerate abandonement, that`s all borderline.
This is what I thought Jodi was all about at the beginning until we heard all about the cold-blooded premeditation. This is what Jodi would have
been had it not been for the cold-bloodedness. OK. Do you get that? All the lying and the premeditation, that`s what made her the more psychopathic
thing.
This she was clingy with the sex, couldn`t tolerate the leaving and then had to stop her pain by killing him.
Next more of the interrogation tapes. Shayna makes some more incredible admissions.
Later a former Mormon Sunday school teacher, big trouble. There she is. Police say she hosted, well, who hasn`t, a naked teen Twister party and
more back after this.
YASMIN VASSOUGHIAN, HLN HOST: I`m Yasmin Vassoughian with "The Daily Share" at this house.
At the top of your Google searches today, the gyro copter that landed on the west lawn of the U.S. Capitol Building. The pilot of the single person
aircraft was arrested for flying into the restricted airspace and the capitol was immediately placed on lockdown as officers searched the machine
for explosives. Now witnesses were startled by the flying contraption.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw out of nowhere a machine that looked like something from chitty-chitty bang-bang.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: It had big wings, propeller like a helicopter but it wasn`t a helicopter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VASSOUGHIAN: Doug Hughes, a mailman from Florida, was protesting campaign finance reform.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:12:57]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for calling 911?
HUBERS: Ma`am, I killed my boyfriend in self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did you kill him with?
HUBERS: A gun, a loaded gun in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me where the gun is right now?
HUBERS: The gun is in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is it at, though, ma`am? Tell me where it`s at.
HUBERS: I laid it on the bookshelf.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What`s your name?
HUBERS: My name is Shayna Michelle Hubers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s his name?
HUBERS: Ryan Carter Poston. He`s an attorney in Cincinnati.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where are you?
HUBERS: I`m standing about three feet from his dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Are you sure that he`s dead?
HUBERS: He`s dead, ma`am. He`s completely dead. Are they going to arrest me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I don`t know what they`ll do.
HUBERS: I mean, I`m not a murder, ma`am, I just killed him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Danine, Anahita.
Former University of Kentucky dean list student Shayna Huber (INAUDIBLE) called 911 after shooting and killing her boyfriend but mind you, Danine,
she`s not a murderer, she just killed him
MANNETTE: Yes, I`m sure she knows he`s dead. Yes. Because you made sure of it before you called. Fifteen minutes later, isn`t that when she called
911? Fifteen minutes after she called her mom.
PINSKY: That`s right.
MANNETTE: And the whole thing, how does she even have a self-defense argument? How do you even claim stand your ground when you`re in somebody
else`s apartment and they`re trying to put you out? How does that come into play? Maybe Anahita can explain.
PINSKY: Well, councillor, how does one come to a defense of this sort of nonsense.
SEDAGHATTAR: She doesn`t have to use a stand your ground defense, Dr. Drew. She can just argue plain old self-defense and I think that is what
her defense is arguing and for that 911 tape I think just the mere fact, like I said, that she even called 911, that helps her. It doesn`t hurt
her. And then her demeanor, she sounds scared, she sounds frightened. How are you supposed to act moments after you just took another human being`s
life?
And if you listen further, I hope your producers play the entirety of the tape. She actually says he was beating me up. He picked me up and threw
me against the table. He grabbed a gun. He was trying to kill me. All of that have is consistent with her story as she said all along.
[21:15:05]
SCHACHER: Anahita, that`s not true. That is not true. If he threw her against the couch and against the table, there would have been evidence
there to corroborate that.
SEDAGHATTAR: She has injuries.
SCHACHER: No, she does not have injuries. No, she doesn`t. That`s vague.
SEDAGHATTAR: I read the article that the producer sent me. They said she had bruising.
SCHACHER: No, you`re wrong. You`re wrong, Anahita. That`s from a completely different incident that`s still up in the air and it`s still
vague. We still don`t know the details on that. What we do know is the defense during their opening statement hey never mentioned those bruises
because, guess what? That may have been from a completely separate incident. We don`t know. But the police chief says she had no injuries
from that moment from that date, from that altercation and there was no table that was out of place, there was no couch out of place.
PINSKY: I remind you councillor, also the neighbours heard his body hit the ground but they didn`t hear her being thrown or hit the grown. They
heard crying, nothing else.
Listen, from February through October 2012, that`s when this attorney was killed, investigators say they reviewed over 50,000 text messages between
these two and thousands of photos exchanged electronically. Boy, that`s when the Jodi Arias element is going to enter into this, I bet, if those
photos come along. But all of those text messages, Danine, is again the clinginess. She has got to see he`s there all the time, all the time. He
probably just burned out on all this and tried to get away and that`s when the going and coming started and that`s when she became aggressive.
MANNETTE: And I thought they weren`t even together anymore. I thought it was interesting that she referred to him as her boyfriend when she called
15 minutes later after she had a chance to get her act together and get her story straight. That`s the part that gets me.
I know she called the police but, you know, like in some of these cases they call the police the next day. I mean that, to me, does not give any
credibility. That takes away from credibility because in the heat of the moment you think you would react quickly and assertively to make sure you
neutralize the situation or whatever. I just don`t buy it.
PINSKY: Let`s look at more of the interrogation tape. Have a look. Maybe the cherish part that Anahita wants to see will be in it. Let`s look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He had his hand on the table and he wasn`t completely standing up. He was like this. He was sitting. He was (INAUDIBLE) like this.
Literally. That`s how I knew he was dead or close to it, the twitching, and that`s it. I couldn`t -- I love him. I still, even though I was hurt,
I couldn`t stand to watch him twitch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Again, we`re seeing this over and over again that she can`t see him twitching. It hurts her too much because she loves him. So I better
finish him off. So I don`t have to continue to watch him any longer. It`s just craziness.
During these interrogations there are other he element too that have raised eyebrows. She was caught very much like Jodi singing and making this
statement. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUBERS: He said, you`re just a hill billy from Kentucky, and I am. I guess the hillbilly came out in me. I took up for myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, Anahita, just to torture you one little bit more, drive that stake in deeper, during the interrogation the police say they never asked
her a single question, yet she continued rambling for over two hours. Now maybe that`s where the mental health defense is going to come in. They can
say she is manic or bipolar, didn`t know what she was doing.
SEDAGHATTAR: Yes, that won`t be a defense that will be more of a mitigating. Like I said, the defense is going to use that tape and spin it
in their favor. Back to what we were talking about, her lack of injuries, it was my understanding that she did have injuries. But even if she
doesn`t, Dr. Drew, that does not negate her self-defense argument. If she goes with the theory that she was a battered woman, the mere fact that he
may have yelled at her, he may have raised had his voice, he may have grabbed for the gun would be enough for her to argue that she reasonably
feared for her life and that she had to grab the gun and shoot him to save her own life.
PINSKY: Anahita, you seem so sincere but your panel mates here are getting headaches. Sam, first.
SCHACHER: Anahita, if his neighbors who, by the way, this wasn`t like a house with lots of land, they were -- one was here and one was below, these
were condos, the neighbors below -- they could hear her whimpering but then they couldn`t hear them arguing, they couldn`t hear him yelling at her,
threatening her. So it just doesn`t all add up, Anahita. It doesn`t. I think her self-defense is just a way -- it`s her only defense and it`s a
way for her to malign him.
PINSKY: Danine, your thoughts.
MANNETTE: And first of all, the neighbors. I saw the old lady that was testifying today that she heard her go outside crying and then go in and
heard the shots. She`s old and old people really do look out their window as soon as they hear something. So I would really take what she says with
value because I`m sure it was really accurate.
PINSKY: All right guys. Let`s just leave it.
We can spin around all day about it. My defense attorney is not going to back down from defending her client. I can see that.
SEDAGHATTAR: You`re right about that.
PINSKY: If you have something to defend, Anahita is your attorney.
SEDAGHATTAR: Call me.
PINSKY: She`s the Cochrane Organization is where you`ll find her. What`s the website, Anahita?
[21:20:00]
SEDAGHATTAR: The Cochranefirm.com.
PINSKY: The cochranefirm.com.
Listen. Here is the deal, I am not saying that because she had some psychiatric problems that she becomes a killer. I`m not saying that at
all. Nor am I saying because she has psychiatric problems she should be excused for her killing. This man -- this was a very attractive,
strapping, healthy attorney, a man of profession, who his life was completely cut short. Imagine him and his family.
Look what has been ripped from their lives because of this woman. This woman couldn`t stand her own emotions and had to take them out on him and
then when she was killing him had to make sure she finished the procedure because it hurt her too much. That`s the nature of her personality
construct. Anyone, if you`re suffering from those kinds of chaotic feelings, please get help with them. It`s my constant refrain.
We see her rambling in the interrogation. Maybe she had bipolar disorder. These are real conditions that have real treatments and people can live
wonderful, productive, comfortable existences. I mean they can be -- listen, a lot of our great leaders have these sort of conditions. You
don`t have to go to this point. Get help first.
Because once it goes to this degree, it`s the legal system that takes over. There`s no excusing it at that point.
Now secret recordings from the case of a husband accused of sexually assaulting his wife who had Alzheimer`s and later police say a mother had
sex with two teens at a naked Twister party that she was having in her own home. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:37]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Henry Rayhans is on trail for third degree sexual abuse for allegedly having sex with his wife in her nursing home without
her consent.
A roommate reported to the staff that the defendant had entered the room and pulled the curtains closed. She then heard noises indicating to her
that the defendant was having sex with the patient.
PINSKY: And the attorney gets a great idea, I`m going to prosecute the husband for rape because he`s had sex with his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he wanted to have sex, he should have paid a prostitute. He`s disgusting.
PINSKY: All right.
HENRY RAYHONS: I would guess that if I did, indeed have sex that night, she asked for it.
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: There`s absolutely nothing here that suggests this man meant any harm to his wife.
RAYHONS: We wanted a marriage that we could go to church and worship together then have company in a home like ours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Danine, Anahita in a segment we call "Seriously?" Henry Rayhons is accused of raping his own wife. She has dementia. She
has Alzheimer`s disease. Prosecutors say she couldn`t possibly have consented to sex.
Danine, I`ve never heard your thoughts on this case. Did this man rape his wife merely because her cognition isn`t what it was earlier?
MANNETTE: Rape seems like a really strong word, but do I think he should have been having sex when he was told not to by the medical staff, no, I
don`t.
PINSKY: I don`t think he was saying it, Danine. I don`t think he was specifically told not to. I think they had a family meeting with the
daughters who clearly had some sort of motivation here, they seemed very intent on separating these two for some reason and they got the doctor to
make an assessment which he had never made in his entire career.
They said do you think my mother is able to have, to consent to sex with her husband. He said in the stand "No one has ever asked me that before.
We have no criteria for that. We know how to make that assessment but my impression is, no, she can`t make consent."
MANNETTE: Look at those facts alone, Dr. Drew. My college aged son -- they have a training at the beginning of the school year that`s called says
yes means yes.
PINSKY: Yes.
MANNETTE: And I think that you know, using Anahita`s words, slippery slope, I think it`s a slippery slope to get into assuming that somebody has
given permission for something or consent when it has to do with the body regardless.
PINSKY: Well, hang on, should we let her consent to what she wants to eat for dinner? I mean the part of the treatment of dementia patients is to
free them up, to let them make choices, to try to enjoy something in their life.
MANNETTE: (INAUDIBLE) we`re talking about an invasion of her body. She is laying there and (INAUDIBLE) say yes.
PINSKY: Well, no, no, no. We don`t know. She may have actually been the initiator. We don`t know that.
MANNETTE: She needs to put it in writing.
PINSKY: I agree. Danine, Anahita, how are we going to do this? We need to create criteria when people give the director, the physician about
healthcare, they got to include stuff like this now.
SEDAGHATTAR: Dr. Drew, we`re to that point where now people have to put this in writing, we have to include in our directives that we want to have
sexual contact with our spouse if we ever get Alzheimer`s disease. Danine is right, it`s a slippery slope but it`s a slipper slope the other way, Dr.
Drew.
PINSKY: Both ways.
SEDAGHATTAR: Because this case -- if the prosecution succeeds in getting a conviction here, what is next? What are we going to prosecute spouses that
want to hug their spouse that has dementia? What if they kiss their spouse who has dementia?
PINSKY: Hold on a second. Hold on.
I don`t know who you are? Would you bring Anahita back for a second? I would like my usual defense attorney.
SEDAGHATTAR: I`m here.
PINSKY: Because I don`t know you anymore.
All right. Listen --
SEDAGHATTAR: What? Because we agree?
PINSKY: Yes. The legal system has brought upon our ability to care for patients so many onerous phenomenon. You have no idea. I just assumed
this is just another one we got to deal with and here it comes.
Any by the way, in the meantime, we`re going to put a 78-year-old man in jail for 10 years. Is that what we`re supposed to be doing with our tax
dollars. I`m going to show you an interview by investigators shortly after the incident where they were secretly recording the conversation. Have a
look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAYHONS: I don`t even remember that night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know that took place and I know that you do remember.
RAYHONS: I would guess if I did, indeed, have sex that night, that she asked for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how did she ask for it? What did she say?
RAYHONS: She says, shall we play a little game. I don`t remember ever having sex with her again in that room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the room before?
RAYHONS: Did we have sex in there? We may have tried it a couple of times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And look how this man openly sobbed in court, Anahita, as these recording played. Do we have that recording? Can you show that?
OK. Let`s get this rate now.
This man is 78 years old. Look, there he is, sobbing in court. See, he loved his wife, he`s trying to maintain intimate contact with her. He says
she encouraged it. They have a little day dialogue that they use that`s sort of his cue to initiate. She was severely demented, severely but isn`t
our goal to try to improve the quality of life with these people with debilitating conditions? Isn`t that what we`re ultimately trying to do?
I know, Danine, of course we don`t want people raping their spouses. I know that exists. I`m not a rape apologist. But I`m really concerned
about the legal system crawling up into our marriages to this degree. No, you don`t have that concern?
DANINE MANNETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: What is it - are we just going to draw the line at dementia. I mean can - if Bobbi Kristina is actually
legally married to Nick and he go and climb on top of her, inside of her hospital room too? I mean, where are we going to draw the line here? At
what stage, at what age? Is it only old people or young people? And how is her dementia any different than someone being intoxicated?
PINSKY: Well, that`s the big question.
MANNETTE: We usually have sex. Why not now?
PINSKY: Right. That`s a big question. Because that`s where the rubber hits the road on this. In the state of California you have two glasses of
wine, you can`t render consent. That`s why I like the slippery slope argument, Sam. When they get to the point of irrationality, it`s like oh,
someone is going to rape Bobbi Kristina now. That`s the insanity of slippery slope. We`re reasonable people.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST "POP TRIGGER": You heard Anahita say soon somebody could go to jail for hugging their spouse with dementia. Yes, that`s a
very slippery slope. I do understand that there should be some parameters. Because yes, just because you`re married to someone doesn`t give them
authorization to have sex with you whenever they want.
PINSKY: No, of course not.
SCHACHER: Of course not. But we have to look at the case-by-case basis. In this case, there`s absolutely no evidence suggesting -
PINSKY: It`s heartbreaking.
SCHACHER: Yes, it`s absolutely sad.
PINSKY: You have more of the secret recordings, is that right?
SCHACHER: Yes, I do. OK. I have the transcript here. So Henry tells the agent, "I never touched her when she didn`t want it. I only tried to
fulfill her need when she asked for it" and another part the agent asks, "did you and your wife have sex regularly?" Henry says, "no, it was not a
regular thing. We`re 78 years old. When you get to be that age you forget about that stuff. You just want togetherness." Oh, god. It breaks my
heart.
It`s so sad, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: It`s sad.
SCHACHER: It`s sad.
PINSKY: It is sad, dementia is sad, aging is sad, chronic illness is sad. We need to begin to be very realistic about our biological selves. All of
us are going to age, all of us are going to have chronic debilitating conditions, what do we want that to be like. We need to think about that
and we need to memorialize that in our directives to physicians as much as possible.
Next up, will this man Henry Rayhons take the stand in his own defense?
And later, police say a mother not only, what shall we say, held a naked teen Twister party, sanctioned it, at her home, but she was part of the
action. She got into it. Right hand red. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
21:37:07
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who does this appear to be now coming in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Henry Rayhons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A roommate reported to the staff that the defendant had entered the ram and pulled the curtains closed.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: In the footage jurors can see Henry guiding Donna into her room. Nearly 30 minutes later he`s seen leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On his way out, he discarded undergarments belonging to the patient into a laundry bag located in the hallway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Danine and Anahita. We`re talking about 78- year-old man who is on trial for allegedly raping his own wife because she couldn`t consent due to her Alzheimer`s disease.
Now Anahita, who has the right to decide if someone with dementia is able to give consent? We don`t have criteria for his yet? How is that going to
shake out?
SEDAGHATTAR: That`s the problem, that`s the issue, Dr. Drew. That`s why I think we need to really start thinking ahead. Maybe we do have to require
people to put that in their advanced directives. But I mean, I said this on your show last week. I cannot imagine any jury that is going to
actually convict this man of having sex with his own wife. He has such a sympathetic defendant, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes. Why don`t we play that tape again of him crying - let`s listen to the tape of him describing his relationship. There he is.
Danine, do you think this man should take the stand for his own defense?
MANNETTE: Absolutely. He needs to personalize this entire situation. I understand this is a horribly sad, heartbreaking case and I don`t think
this man should go to jail or be prosecuted. That`s not my issue. I`m just saying this is a larger thing as far as the right and ability for one
to consent when they are in an incapacitated state.
PINSKY: You are absolutely right. It is illustrative that we need to shake this out and figure out how we want to allow ourselves to live our
lives if and when we are not in our normal state of cognition. What do we want to still be able to experience even when there`s questionable
qualities about our ability to consent. We certainly can tell if we`re objecting to something, right?
MANNETTE: Right.
PINSKY: Demented patients tell you when they don`t like food. They let you know. (INAUDIBLE)
MANNETTE: What if she was confused and she woke up and didn`t know who he was on her? She couldn`t have been very scared.
PINSKY: That`s the point. You would know that, you would understand that. That`s not -
MANNETTE: Didn`t he go in and out and in and out?
PINSKY: He was in an out and she was very, very demented. According to the man here, the husband, she encouraged it and seemed to be -
MANNETTE: Well, according to him.
PINSKY: People nearby didn`t say - (INAUDIBLE) she wasn`t objecting or making any evidence of any resistance to the people in the very near
vicinity, right?
SCHACHER: Thank you. This sexual encounter in question - there was a roommate just a number of feet away. She claims that she heard some sexual
sounds.
21:40:00
She never claimed that she heard his wife resist or speak, say no or was any bit uncomfortable. We have to look at the whole thing here, we have
to look at the fact that every time he came to visit her that she was very excited, that they were very touchy feely.
PINSKY: And Sam, there`s some evidentiary stuff here. And the final witness was in charge of testing for DNA and she says no seminal fluid was
found in the rape kit.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: So there`s not even evidence that he actually did anything.
SCHACHER: Right. Maybe they were just laying down together and being touchy feely.
PINSKY: Still, I got to the favourite part of this story is how your husband responded when we asked him, I told you I was going to make you
tell the story again.
SCHACHER: Oh my god.
PINSKY: We asked him would he want you to have sex with him if he were demented and incapacitated and what did he say?
SCHACHER: OK. So I texted him that. Basically he was like, I don`t know. I don`t have dementia. Ask me later.
PINSKY: First male response.
SCHACHER: And then I pressed him, I said "No, come on, Mark. Really, if i - would you want to have sex with me if you had dementia? What if you
didn`t recognize me? That would scare me." And he said "Then you would be a hot girl that I never met before." So then I said, "you would have sex
with me."
PINSKY: No, no. He wanted to have sex more that way. That was his point. It was more appealing to him than even know. That`s how our male
compatrions are going to think about this.
SCHACHER: Yes. I`d be scared.
PINSKY: First of all, I don`t know about you but I don`t want my tax dollars spent this way. It is ridiculous. I don`t want a 78-year-old man
sitting spending his days out in jail. That`s cruel and unusual. It`s like a murder. Stop it, everybody.
I do want people protected from unwanted sexual advances absolutely and I do think this is a new thing. I don`t blame people so much for taking a
good look at this. I blame the attorneys spending a lot of money and time on it. Let the medical system deal with this. We`re the ones who is going
to figure this out, anyway. Let us figure out what the criteria need to be. Let us figure out how to manage if somebody becomes objectionable to
what once they meet criteria, if it`s something they don`t like what do we do then? How do we hold people accountable for that? How do we make sure
this doesn`t spiral out of control?
And for all of us because we`re all going to age, we`re all going biologic and many of us are going to have dementia, get an advanced directive. You
can discuss this with your physician now. They can put it in writing and that`s the end of that.
Next up, you will meet the mother who police say takes a group of her teenage friends of her teenaged children, gives them a bunch of alcohol and
then gets the spinner out, the spinner that says left hand blue, right hand red, left leg blue but everyone is going to have their clothes off, Twister
game.
Reminder, we`re on Instagram. Check out our behind-the-scenes photos. We post it once very day. We`ll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
21:46:57
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The report states (INAUDIBLE) told the sponsor she is facing charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor after allowing
her 16-year-old daughter and friends to party at her Evans home with illegal substances and alcohol.
(INAUDIBLE) played naked Twister in the living room, then had sex with an 18-year-old in the bathroom. She brought her sex toys out and performed
with them in front of the group. As the party continued the incident report reads (INAUDIBLE) fell asleep and woke up around 3:30 in the morning
to find her daughter`s 16-year-old boyfriend having sex with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Danine, and Anahita and a truly WTF story -- it`s dominating the conversation of Twitter and Facebook. It is this
mother of five facing two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Anahita, a, is that a sufficient charge and, b, what is going to
happen to her?
SEDAGHATTAR: That`s a sufficient charge. I think she`s going to be convicted. She`s probably going to have to serve some time and
definitely, hopefully get some counseling. I mean she`s an admitted alcoholic, she`s an admitted sex addict. I think, Dr. Drew, a lot of this,
too, is her trying to be cool. It`s another parent that`s trying to be a friend to her kid.
PINSKY: Well, maybe, Anahita, if she`s as sick as you say she is, she doesn`t know what she`s doing.
Sam, I see you with a look of incredulity on your face. What`s going on?
SCHACHER: That`s a sufficient charge? What about the fact that she is performing sex acts in front of all these teeenager. She`s showing her
daughter pictures of her having sex with men. That`s all pornographic material.
PINSKY: And it`s alleged (INAUDIBLE).
SCHACHER: It`s alleged and she`s out on bond for $3,000? Really? No, I think that it should have been a much stiffer penalty.
PINSKY: Danine, what are you thinking?
MANNETTE: I agree with Sam and even go a little step further. She supposedly had sex with the 16-year-old. Now, if this was been the dad and
he had awakened to having sex with a 16-year-old girl, we would be talking something different here.
PINSKY: I believe the age of consent is 16 in that state.
MANNETTE: It is.
PINSKY: That`s how she avoided that.
Listen, by the way, that does not make it good or OK for the 16-year-old. Trust me on that. That is not OK. She has five children. She gave birth
to the first one at the age of 19. She was a devout Mormon until she separated from her husband and eventually separated from the church. She
was attempting to maintain abstinence from alcohol but apparently when she left the church that exploded a bit.
And I`ve seen a lot of that, I`ve seen a lot of people in the Mormon church who suddenly become - I treated a lot of that. Her estranged husband,
guys, was someone who served in Iraq and also struggled with PTSD. I mean, as usual, it`s not - when you start thinking about what this woman was
suffering with it starts to make more sense how this outlandish behavior could have happened, right? Anybody?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes sense.
PINSKY: Let me ask this. So she goes to 12 step. Her AA sponsor has said that she is also a member of the sex addiction support group at her you
church. She has admitted to being addicted to porn and obviously other sex, sexual behavior. She`s an addict but one of the things that was
troubling here in the case and for a lot of people on our Twitter and Facebook feeds were suggesting, we`re talking about this it was her AA
sponsor who reported this.
21:50:10
So Anahita, what is the obligation of a sponsor when he or she is hearing very confidential material but is aware it potentially being harmful to
others?
SEDAGHATTAR: Right. I`m glad. I think the sponsor did the right thing as hard as it is. Because you do want to maintain that confidentiality so
that the other person feels comfortable opening up and talking about things. I think the sponsor did the absolute right thing here. You guys,
these charges are not minor charges. She is going to be punished as she should.
But what I`m saying she clearly needs to get counseling, parenting classes. She has a lot of issues, Dr. Drew. I bet you if we look back into her
history, she probably grew up in a lot of trauma in her life.
PINSKY: Yes. Probably true. I mean, that`s sort of the way it goes as you know well.
SEDAGHATTAR: A cycle.
PINSKY: Yes, a cycle of abuse, a cycle of trauma. It`s strange in this case though how this woman seemed to have been so well put together and
then suddenly exploded with trouble. Sam, I don`t know if you have any insight into that. But I think that this is mostly about the addiction
spiralling out of control.
I must tell you, I`m conflicted about what the sponsor did. I mean, I want people to feel they can say anything to their sponsor. I need them to be
able to do that and especially -- but if they`re going to harm somebody else the sponsor does have an obligation to speak up about it.
SCHACHER: I think the sponsor did the right thing. Let`s remember that this woman was only like 40 (INAUDIBLE), Dr. Drew. So it`s not like that
she had this long amount of sobriety and she built this relationship with the sponsor. I think the sponsor absolutely did the right thing. And I`m
concerned about this daughter now.
Because the daughter it seemed like - the apple doesn`t fall far from the tree.
PINSKY: All these kids.
SCAHCHER: Yes. She`s justifying -
PINSKY: All the kids who are involved in this are going to need a lot of help.
We`re going to stop, keep this going right after this. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
21:56:08
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFED MALE: She was arrested for furnishing alcohol and marijuana to at least two 16-year-olds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) played Twister in the living room and then had sex with an 18-year-old in the bathroom. She brought her sex toys
out and performed with them in front of the group. (INAUDIBLE) fell asleep and woke up around 3:30 in the morning to find her daughter`s 16-year-old
boyfriend having sex with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Danine and Anahita, take a look at how the men reacted to this story on Facebook. Let`s take a look.
Gary says "I`ll bail her out and place her under house arrest at my place." Danny says "When I was a kid, none of the moms looked like that." Brian,
"16-year-old me would have loved to have gotten treated like that and still would." The reality, gentlemen, however, is that when you are the object
of premature interaction with an adult you, "a," the outcomes for the young males are bad. They have higher incidence of substance abuse, higher
incidence of personality problems, higher incidence of truancy, and think about how it messes with their thinking.
This is the mom - this is somebody close to your - if you`re 16 or 14 or 17 - your parent`s age. This is a peer of your parents. And this is how
somebody like your parents behaves? It becomes really disturbing to their ability to maintain boundaries and to understand ethical propriety.
Anything is possible now.
Now (INAUDIBLE) attorney tells HLN that she acknowledges engaging in inappropriate behavior due to alcohol abuse although many allegations are
exaggerated she is extremely remorseful.
And Anahita, I got to say, I don`t want to dismiss or excuse what she has done, but I do feel bad for her. I really do. She has an illness, she has
alcoholism. Danine is going to attack me for this. I`ll give you a chance, Danine.
Help me with this because I don`t want to dismiss what the consequences of what she`s done. She needs to pay the consequence. It`s part of her
disease. She should have gotten help earlier. But man, I feel bad for how she must be feeling. She has harmed - let`s be clear, she harmed a bunch
of kids.
SEDAGHATTAR: She has. You`re right about that. I think a big part of her defense is going to be that she, herself, is ill. She is an alcoholic, she
is an admitted sex addict. All of that comes into play and a judge is going to consider that and that`s why I hope that part of her punishment
will be treatment and also treatment for -
PINSKY: Years of it. Absolutely years of treatment.
SEDAGHATTAR: We wonder why we come on your show and we talk about these kids posting sex tapes online and kids raping other kids during spring
break in the broad light. Look at what types of households that we`re seeing these days.
PINSKY: That`s absolutely right.
SEDAGHATTAR: It`s sad.
PINSKY: But, Danine, please don`t be too harsh on me. I treat alcoholics and sex addicts and I know they really hurt deeply and they should when
they behave like this and must take the consequences of their actions. She has to.
MANNETTE: Right.
PINSKY: I feel bad for her, is that OK with you?
MANNETTE: It`s fine for you but I am so sick of this! I am so sick of these irresponsible, stupid parents that screw up the lives of not only
their own kids but all these other kids their kids have interactions with. I don`t care if she is an alcoholic. I don`t care if she is a sex addict,
I don`t care if she had a poor childhood. I don`t care. What she did was wrong. She knows it`s wrong. Other people have issues. Don`t do this.
She needs to go to jail. She can sober up in jail.
PINSKY: Yes. She can and she should. It will take a lot longer than whatever the jail time is. But Danine, I get it. Sam, last thoughts.
SCHACHER: Yes, last thoughts. Listen, I`ve interacted with a number of people with substance abuse problems or sex addiction, but then they don`t
impose that onto their children. It`s one thing for her to be suffering from an illness, it`s another thing to be really screwing her children`s
lives up.
PINSKY: Listen, I understand. What you guys are saying, you are not wrong. I have to go in the room and shut the door and help people who have
been through this and they are in profound pain and this is a terrible illness, it affects everyone around them. I hope she gets lots of
treatment. I hope she (INAUDIBLE) in the future.
DVR us and then you can watch us anytime. "Forensic Files" begins, immediately following our program and starts now.
END
