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Erin Burnett Outfront

Families Of Hostages Meet With Netanyahu To "Get Answers"; Israel Releases Video Inside Tunnel Shaft On Shifa Hospital Complex'; Rare Audio Reveals Tense Hearing Over Trump Gag Order; Voters About To File Appeal To Bar Trump From Colorado Ballot; Maria Shriver Speaks To OutFront About Rosalynn Carter's Legacy; Majority Of OpenAI's Workers Threaten To Quit After CEO's Ouster. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired November 20, 2023 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:44]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, fed up. Families of hostages asking about their loved ones missing now for 45 days, and no real answers from the Israeli government. The father of two young girls who are being held right now by Hamas will tell his story, and an Israeli government official responds here tonight.

And is Trump's gag order about to be reinstated? His former White House attorney Ty Cobb says yes, and predicts Trump will end up in jail over it.

Plus, the biggest name in artificial intelligence fired by the board of his company, and then dramatically hired by a rival. Now, Sam Altman's employees are threatening mutiny.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the man demanding answers. The families of hostages are demanding answers from the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet. We are told more than 100 family members in the each family was allowed one representative today met with the prime minister today for hours, and they went in saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAI WENKERT, SON HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS: I demand their commitment that everyone is returning home, all of the hostages. We must get answers.

MEIRAV LESHEM, DAUGHTER HELD HOSTAGE BY HAMAS: We have very concrete questions, and we expect them to answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: The prime minister came out of the meeting said that returning hostages was a sacred and supreme mission, but the hostage families came out without most answers, at least that's what Yoni Asher tells us. He was there today. His wife and two young daughters are among the hostages, his entire family, his entire life hostage now for 45 days.

I'm going to speak to him in just a few minutes about that meeting, because it comes as President Biden tonight says he does believe a deal to release some hostages is near, a deal that CNN reports could include a 45-day pause fighting for the release of dozens of hostages.

But even if there is a deal, Israel faces mounting questions about its focus on the Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza, and strikes there, a hospital that Israel says doubles as a command center for Hamas, Hamas, of course, denies these allegations. So to backup the claims, Israel has been releasing videos and inviting CNN to tour what it claims is an underground tunnel shaft used by Hamas in the Al-Shifa hospital compound.

Israel is also releasing CCTV video. You're looking at it here. They say this shows Hamas fighters bringing Nepalese and Thai hostages into the hospital, on the same day of the Hamas terror attack, to bolster their claims that the hospital was used for hostages themselves.

Israel has not, though, yet shown evidence of the extensive multi- level, well lit, and an extremely comfortable network, it says that Hamas uses under the hospital, even as a former Israeli prime minister today tells CNN that the bunkers Hamas is now accused of using underneath the hospital were initially built by Israel itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHUD BARAK, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: For many decades, four decades ago, we held them to build this bunker in order to enable more space for the operation of the hospital was in the very limited size of this compound.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Of course, the compound's a 12-acre compound. We're going to have much more on this coming up with the senior counselor to the current Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

But, first, our coverage begins with Nick Robertson. He's OUTFRONT tonight in Sderot.

And, Nic, what is the latest that you're hearing about a deal to release some of these hostages?

All right. It sounds like Nic is not able to hear me. We'll give him a second. Are we able to cue him more now? Yep.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yep, Erin, you've got me just in time there. As you know yourself, communications here go down a lot.

So, listen, this is what we are hearing from the families tonight, disappointment, perhaps not surprised they said they went in there, wanting to hear something new. They didn't hear something new. What they really wanted to hear most of all was that the prime minister and his work cabinet would put the hostages above a priority, above all else. And they didn't do that, and as we know, Prime Minister Netanyahu said the hostages are on the same priority as defeating Hamas, and the way things play out on the, battlefield it can look like actually getting Hamas, really takes precedence over the hostages.

[19:05:00]

But for the families, this was not something that's for them. It's shifted the ball forward in any way, so perhaps -- perhaps it makes that disappointment stronger. Hostage families that we've been talking to, over recent weeks say that they are concerned that this drip, drip, drip offer of hostages, perhaps women, perhaps children, mean that the men could get left behind.

But they point out one really, really important thing here, in the negotiation and that is Hamas say, they say, look, this is not a state actor, this is not an NGO, this is not something that you can deal with, a group that will deal with you rationally.

So, they recognize even as a government tries through intermediaries, to get some workable solution with Hamas, that they are really dealing with an organization that doesn't care, and only has its own interests in sight, which is its own survival, and its survival comes about through being able to hold on to hostages.

And I think the other takeaway here, you know, the parameters of this that are being laid, out that we are hearing from officials in the United States, and the Qataris as well are quite hopeful, but these parameters are speaking about the 4 to 5-day pause in fighting, cease- fire, the release of about 50 hostages. Well, this is the complete opposite of what the Israeli government is setting out to achieve here.

They've said a complete cease-fire for all the hostages, the one thing that they really do not want is to allow Hamas to put the fighting on pause for a while, so that Hamas can regroup in the field, and then just drip, drip, drip out more hostages as things roll forward. That's how Hamas wants to play this, and this is why the Israeli government has been resisting this tactic all along.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Nic Robertson, in Sderot tonight.

The families of the hostages meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and his war cabinet today, Yoni Asher was in that meeting. Yoni's wife and two little girls who will turn three and five in January are hostages in Gaza. I visited Yoni at his home in Israel, and he showed us some of his daughter's favorite toys, and their little pink shoes.

It has been 45 days since Yoni has seen Raz and Aviv his wife, Doron.

And Yoni is back with me now.

Yoni, as you wait and wait, I know you met with the war cabinet. You met with Prime Minister Netanyahu today. What did they tell you about your wife and daughters?

YONI ASHER, WIFE AND 2 DAUGHTERS HELD HOSTAGE: Hello, Erin. Thank you for having me.

I -- it was a meeting with one more -- almost 100 people, because it was one representative of each family. So it wasn't my personal meeting, and I think that what is said there was basically that the military position is better than it used to be before three weeks ago, and the situation as far as intelligence is better.

But unfortunately, I get out from this conversation, and I can't tell you that I have any concrete news, or information, regarding to my personal family, and I can only -- like I told you many times before, I only can hope and pray, even after this meeting. And it's very hard. This is not an easy situation, the families combined in the same room, it's very difficult.

BURNETT: Yoni, we have heard before that a deal to release the hostages is close, and I know this time we've been hearing, it's -- it's very close. There's been a lot of reporting about a possible deal. Did they say that they think it's for real this time?

ASHER: Well, the subject of whether we have a deal on the table or not is not even spoken.

BURNETT: Wow.

ASHER: So, nothing about a deal, or a deal that can be -- exist.

BURNETT: Yoni, I'm going to be speaking to Mark Regev, the senior counsel to the Prime Minister Netanyahu, in just a moment. Is there anything else you would want him to know?

ASHER: Without return of the hostages there is no winning in this war. Without the returning of the hostages, there can be -- there can't be a future that is based on the trust between public, the people, and the government.

[19:10:06]

And I'm sure that they know it. They know that without the return of the hostages, there is no future, for this country.

BURNETT: Yoni in terms of the hostages released, Abe Moses, his pregnant wife and son were burned to death by a terrorist, he is speaking out, he says he supports freeing that terrorist from Israeli prison, freeing the person who did that to his family, in a swap for the hostages. And he said, Yoni, if the despicable murderer who killed my wife Ofra and my son needs to be released -- I say do it and bring the hostages home today. Now is the time to return them.

Obviously, you are a father to those two girls, how do you respond to that father?

ASHER: This is devastating thoughts, devastating decisions, that people need to say and think, this father is a great man. That's all I can say. The pain is so big, but he is realizing what kind of situation are we?

And like I said, I think that if there was a deal, if there was a real deal on the table, that I know of, I can only hope and pray that what is important on the media, is correct.

BURNETT: Yoni, thank you very much.

ASHER: Thank you, Erin.

BURNETT: And OUTFRONT now, Mark Regev, the senior adviser to the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu.

And, Mark, I appreciate your time.

You just heard Yoni Asher. Of course, it's been over six weeks since he saw his wife, and his two little girls. And he says his message to you is that there's no way this war without the return of the hostages. He says there's no future for Israel without the return of the hostages, and he says that the people of Israel will not trust the Israeli government if the hostages aren't returned.

What do you say to him?

MARK REGEV, SENIOR ADVISER TO ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: First of all, we have to -- we have to hug him, we have to support him, one can only imagine the pain he is going through, having his wife and children kidnapped.

I can't even think of anything worse that could happen to someone, especially knowing who has done the kidnapping, this brutal terrorist organization that committed the most gruesome violence against Israeli citizens on October 7th. So, one has to feel for this man, one has to support him, one has to do what everyone can do to help him.

BURNET: Mark, in terms of the hostages themselves, President Biden says he does believe a deal is close to release some of them, the children among them, perhaps Raz and Aviv. CNN's reported negotiators have been reporting on a possible deal that would involve a 45-day pause in fighting in exchange for the release of those hostages.

Look, I understand that you can't share details. Yoni was saying he understands you can't share details. But can you say if you are close to a real deal now?

REGEV: So I don't know the answer that question, because it's not done until it's done, and being close doesn't help you. You need to get the hostages out.

And I can only say the following, Erin. We will agree, and we will only agree to a temporary cease-fire in Gaza for the release of our hostages. We've been hitting Hamas hard, but if Hamas as I said is hurting, and hurting badly, I think that increases our chances of getting people out.

BURNETT: Mark, I want to ask you something. It involves showing viewers something that I've described on this show, but we have not aired it on CNN until now, and I'm airing it for your response.

It's an animated video, Mark, that was released by the IDF of what Israel says shows Hamas's operations in Gaza, underneath the Al-Shifa hospital. In it, you see lit tunnels, armed fighters, a meeting room possibly for Hamas, there's a rug in there, chairs, a flag.

This animation was released three weeks ago. So far, Mark, it does not match the actual videos that Israel has, released which look like this one, it's a video of what Israel has put out, you say this is an underground Hamas tunnel shaft at the hospital, deep below ground, the video goes on to show the inside of the tunnel until it reaches a closed door.

Look, it's a tunnel. For sure we can see, so you can see someone walking down it, but it does not match your animation at this point. Are there videos coming that will support the allegations that Israel has made in this animation?

REGEV: In a word, Erin, yes. We will be providing more and more information.

[19:15:01]

I hope we can actually have a CNN crew go down into the tunnel network. But we've got to be cautious, we are concerned about, booby traps we are concerned for the lives of our soldiers, and we have to do this slowly. We have to do this judiciously. We have no doubt whatsoever about the subterranean network of tunnels, under Gaza City, under the hospital.

It's a matter of time. We'll be releasing every day more information when we have it. We've been doing, so we will continue to do so.

So I would just say, Erin, patience. In the end, Hamas is subterranean terror network, it's their work of tunnels and underground fortifications, and rocket launching sites and arms depots, all of that will be made public, and will be destroyed. But before we destroy it, of course, we want people to see what was there.

BURNETT: Well, the former Prime Minister Barak today told CNN something very interesting in this context. He actually said, Mark, that he knows there are bunkers underneath the Al-Shifa hospital, because Israel built them. He says that Israel built what's under there and initially he said it was for hospital used to support the Al-Shifa hospital at the time. He said it was built decades ago.

But back to that animation that shows Hamas fighters inside while at the conference rooms, video screens, do you know that their network is being used as you portray it, and is the reason that you're so confident about how it looks because you built it?

REGEV: So, first of all, we did not build the hospital, the hospital was built by the British when they were ruling this part of the world in the 1940s. Afterwards, in the early 1980s, when Israel was ruling the Gaza Strip, we actually made renovations, and we did actually build basements which were for the medical purposes for the hospitals, storage facilities and other things for their medical equipment.

What happened under Hamas is that they turned some of those basement areas into underground for them, as part of their war machine for their command and control. And then they built, it wasn't there before, they dug out these tunnels, these special fortifications under the ground, what we showed already.

CNN is seeing this, the tunnel that grows down, what is it, ten yards and then it reaches this underground complex which is still locked, but what we have to show --

BURNETT: Door, yeah.

REGEV: -- I believe in the coming days.

So, what Hamas did is they used the existing basements apparently for their command and control, and through the tunnel network, they could say orders, and instructions, and fighters to their network of underground tunnels. So, there is no contradiction, we knew all this.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Mark, thank you very much. I appreciate you taking the time joining us tonight. Thank you.

REGEV: Thanks for having me, Erin.

BURNETT: And next, Donald Trump may be silenced as an appeals court appears ready to restore a gag order. We have rare audio of that court hearing for you next.

And breaking news, Colorado voters are about to file an appeal that will happen any moment now after a judge ruled Trump can stay on the ballot. The attorney, who's about to file the appeals, will speak first OUTFRONT.

Plus, Microsoft puts an A.I. mastermind on its payroll just hours after he's fired. And Microsoft shares surged to all time high. The CEO announces it before the market even opens. It's picture perfect, huh? So, just who is Sam Altman? The special report is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:23]

BURNETT: Tonight, rare audio of a court hearing between the former President Donald Trump's lawyers and DOJ prosecutors. There were three judges, listening to both sides argue over a gag order for Trump in the DOJ's 2020 election interference case. The judges indicating they are likely to restore that gag order, despite the Trump team's objections today.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

D. JOHN SAUER, TRUMP ATTORNEY: Criminal speech, obviously, is subject to the restrictions. But core political speech -- that is core political speech, that's part of campaign speech. JUDGE MILLETT: I think that -- kind of calling, labeling it core

political speech begs the question of whether it is, in fact, political, speech, or whether it is political speech aimed at derailing, or corrupting the criminal justice process. You can't simply label it that.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, Ty Cobb, the former Trump White House lawyer.

So, Ty, you watched this hearing and he said it's really rare to have the opportunity to hear this, right? I mean, we -- it's quotes that come out afterwards, or reports from people in the room, you actually could hear it.

So, what do you think? Do you think the appeals court is going to restore this gag order? What did you hear from the tone and the questioning?

TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: So there is no question that the courts will ultimately approve a gag order. Whether the court will rewrite the existing gag order or send it down to Judge Chutkan, with instructions as to how to write it, remains unclear. They could do either, but there will definitely be a gag order in this case.

I think a couple of things put together here, you know, Judge Millett, who is extremely sharp and very skillful judge, you know, made it plain that they needed to work with a very fine scalpel was her words. And what that said -- what that suggests is that they will tweak the existing gag order, and I think most of the tweaking will be around the word targeting or targets as it's used in the existing gag order, refining that in a way that makes plain that yes, Jack Smith can be criticize, he can be criticized by name, but that he cannot be the subject of incitement, or invited violence.

[19:25:00]

And as what's pointed out in the briefs, the day after Trump said, if you come after me, I'm coming after you, death threats were sent to her chambers --

BURNETT: Right.

COBB: -- then, you know, his words -- his words have real consequences. We have dead people on January 6th, that -- compellingly demonstrated that.

BURNETT: Right, and also -- and also show that there can be an incitement of violence, without a direct incitement of violence. It's the codes that matter so much, and I guess that's the subjectivity of it.

I mean, so the hearing was tense at moments, Ty. The judges, they did try to drill down on what Trump's team believes he is allowed to say, right? Your whole point about how do you apply a scalpel here. They specifically brought up, well, how do you handle witnesses who could be called to testify? What Trump may say about those witnesses, or say that they could influence those witnesses.

Here's one of the scenarios that they post.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MILLETT: What if he instead gets on a stage somewhere or on social media, and he says that exact same thing, Ms. X, a public figure, is being bothered by the prosecutor. The people who are loyal, honest patriots don't talk to the government.

SAUER: He hasn't said that, and --

MILLETT: Please answer the question.

SAUER: And it is a mischaracterization to say that.

MILLETT: I'm not suggesting he has said that. This is to be clear for the record, this is a hypothetical question.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BURNETT: I mean, she made it clear these are post as hypotheticals, but, Ty, when you've looked through things Trump has said, real things he said, there is a chance you've said, a very real one that Trump could face jail time for violating a gag order, right?

COBB: Yes. Absolutely.

I don't think it is his first or second violation of the gag order will find him sent to jail, but I think ultimately, you know, his narcissism will get the best of him and he will violate it until he finds out what the limits of Judge Chutkan's patience are -- is.

BURNETT: I guess those limits, the limits as you're saying and up with what could possibly be a night or two or something like that. I mean, it's hard to even imagine it, but actually in jail.

COBB: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. And I think, you know, the judges were frustrated with both sides a little bit today, because of the vagaries of their interpretation of the order, and the arguments they were making. But in the end, I think this task boils down to using that scalpel, skillfully. To demonstrate what targets, or targeting actually means, and what areas of speech are actually circumscribed by the need to avoid undermining the integrity of the judicial process, I think that task is well within the capabilities of these charges, and Judge Chutkan.

BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you very much, Ty. I appreciate it as always.

COBB: Thank you. It's nice to be with you, Erin. Take care. Thank you.

BURNETT: You, too, Ty.

And next, we do have some more breaking legal news. Colorado voters about to file an appeal saying that Donald Trump does not belong on the ballot, despite a judge's incredibly narrow ruling, talk about a scalpel. The attorney for those voters is my guest. This will be the first time he's speaking out here and they are about to file that now.

And Maria Shriver, who worked alongside the former first lady, Rosalynn Carter, is OUTFRONT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:32:17]

BURNETT: Breaking news. A group of Colorado voters about to file an appeal any moment, seeking to kick Donald Trump off the 2024 ballot. They have until midnight. The appeal comes after a Colorado judge ruled Trump could stay on the ballot despite the voters' argument that 14th Amendment disqualifies Trump from inciting an insurrection.

Now, the judge ruled on very narrow grounds, saying that Trump can stay in the ballot, but also saying that Trump did engage in an insurrection on January 6th.

Sean Grimsley is OUTFRONT now. He's the attorney for the Colorado voters who brought the lawsuit seeking to remove Trump from the ballot. This is his first interview since the judge's ruling.

And, Sean, I got a lot to ask you about but let me just start with you and where you are, a few hours here before this filing deadline, you're about to file the appeal. What's your main argument?

SEAN GRIMSLEY, ATTORNEY SEEKING TO BAR TRUMP FROM COLORADO BALLOT: Well, the main argument is that the judge got one issue wrong, she ruled basically for us on everything except for a very technical legal argument that the Section 3 of the 14th Amendment doesn't apply to the president. We think that was incorrect, but that's the only issue we'll be filing on.

BURNETT: Right. In fact, she said that Section 3 specifies the disqualifying oath is one to support the Constitution, whereas the presidential oath is to protect, I'm sorry, preserve and protect and defend the Constitution. So, she's saying because the word used in section 3 is support and the word used in the presidential oath are preserve, protect and defend, that that's how she's getting to that it doesn't apply to the president. And I presumed that's -- you're specifically taking issue with that?

GRIMSLEY: Yeah, we're taking issue with that because we think the oath to preserve, protect and defend includes the oath to support, but she also ruled that the president is not an officer of the United States and we think that was incorrect and we're hopeful that we'll prevail on appeal.

BURNETT: All right. As you point out, other than the most basic thing, right, which is remaining on the ballot, okay, so that was this ultimately all about, you lost on that, so you're appealing, but you did win on everything else. I mean, she came out and said the First Amendment doesn't apply to his speech, came out and he said he incited an insurrection. She came out and said that he incited violence. I mean, it's all laid out in great detail.

And on that front, I -- you're aware of something that I'm not yet aware of it, but you're saying that Trump's team is also appealing the ruling.

GRIMSLEY: Yeah, so about, I think 20 minutes ago, they filed with the Colorado Supreme Court saying they wanted to appeal 11 different issues from the trial court below and asking to increase the word count that they get for the briefs by twice as much as they would normally get. So, we're appealing one very small legal issue. They're appealing 11.

BURNETT: Right. And when you say they want to extend the word count because they want to put in very long briefs I presume briefs about issues like insurrection.

[19:35:02]

GRIMSLEY: Yeah, I presume so, again, with 11 questions presented that they're asking for, I think they feel like they need more space. We're not going to be asking for more any more word count. We've got one issue to appeal and we should be filing that tonight.

BURNETT: How in the world do you have two sides appealing the same ruling at the same time? Is that an unprecedented situation, Sean?

GRIMSLEY: No, you know, it's not that unusual. When two people think that there were some things that were on. I think probably Trump's team wants to make sure they appeal a variety of issues, so that if this ever goes to U.S. Supreme Court, they can argue that the judge got some of those things wrong. But I don't think she did and I'm hopeful that we'll prevail in the Colorado Supreme Court.

BURNETT: Well, you know, it's interesting if they're doing this, it does show they perceive that the headlines that came out of this we're not once that they want, right? That the judge said he incited an insurrection. The conclusion, of course, it's different than what Trump himself is saying. He was at a rally over the weekend, and of course he said something different.

Let me just play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: So, we've now beat the radical left Democrats' election-rigging ballot qualification scam in Colorado and Michigan and Minnesota and New Hampshire and other states. Our opponents are showing every day that they hate democracy, they are trying every illegal move they can to try and steal this election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Of course, he's appealing the ruling that he is there extolling, as you point out. You're saying 11 points they want to appeal.

But what do you say to him and his comments there?

GRIMSLEY: You know, it's not surprising that he would take that position. We are going to pursue our claims in court. I think we put on a very good case. The judge issued a very detailed and thorough opinion. It took until page 95 of 102-page opinion for her to rule against us on anything.

So, we're just going to continue forward. We're going to go to the Colorado Supreme Court to see what happens there.

BURNETT: Yeah. You're right, it was about page 95. And 92 was the insurrection.

All right, thank you very much. I appreciate it, Sean. Thank you for your time. I know you're going to be filing that shortly, so, thanks.

GRIMSLEY: Thank you very much.

BURNETT: All right. And next, Rosalynn Carter helped transform the job of a first lady. Maria Shriver, a former first lady herself, no stranger to politics, of course, as a member of the Kennedy family is OUTFRONT next. She'll remember her friend.

And Microsoft shares soared to an all-time high, an all-time high for massive company, because of just one guy. They came in and hired the just fired A.I. guru Sam Altman. The story behind Microsoft coup, and Altman's former employees now threatening mutiny ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:41:19]

BURNETT: Tonight, many lives touched by former first lady, Rosalynn Carter. Among them, the former California first lady, author, journalist, and health care advocate Maria Shriver, who you see there greeting Mrs. Carter. They formed a friendship as they work together to support caregivers who are looking after sick ones.

And Maria Shriver is OUTFRONT now.

And, Maria, I really appreciate your time. I just wanted to ask you, because you didn't get to know her in such a specific capacity. What was it like getting to know Rosalynn Carter?

MARIA SHRIVER, WORKED WITH ROSALYNN CARTER ON CAREGIVING ADVOCACY: Well, she was an incredible woman. I think far ahead in so many ways an equal partner as the former president said just yesterday in every way. I think she was out in front on mental health, out in front on caregiving. And since my uncle had run against President Carter, I was nervous to work with her and nervous that she might be, you know, hold a grudge so to speak.

BURNETT: Yeah.

SHRIVER: And she was gracious. She was elegant. She never really brought it up. My dad had to run against Carter in '76 and then my uncle run against him in '80. Yet, she was very professional.

She was like, look it, we work on the same issues, let's work together. You can help me, I can help you, and let's focus on that, never even brought up either man.

So, I was like, okay let's go. I was a big admire of her. I think to be outpouring, I think yesterday shows how many people were touched by her work, her style, I think, her elegances, the love story clearly. But she was a formidable woman in her own right.

BURNETT: And, you know, it's interesting, your father, of course, was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and you helped care for him, you became a vocal advocate for Alzheimer's patients as well as their caretakers.

SHRIVER: Yes.

BURNETT: And Rosalynn also cared for her father when he was dying, and she was a child at the time. But when she finally, you know, had the power and the ability, she created an institute dedicated to caretakers. You know, millions and millions of Americans going through the pain and anguish and love, all the things that entails.

What did she accomplish with her work?

SHRIVER: Well, I think she elevated that issue. It still needs to be elevated. There is so many millions of Americans who do this work around the clock, in addition to working full-time, in addition to parenting, in addition to partnering. And they are looking for help. She always said this quote I think that you're either going to be a caregiver or be cared by a caregiver in your lifetime.

So, all of us should be invested in this issue, learn about this issue, honor this issue, value this work, which is often so low paid. It's often done in the darkness. People do not come face to face with it until they come face to face with it.

So, I think she had this idea of also a caregiver's office in the federal government that never was realized. But I think she wanted to elevate this work, this kind of work that I always call work that's on the front lines of humanity that so many people do. They changed their lives to care for people that they love. I think she wanted to honor that work and elevate it.

BURNETT: So, a few days ago, you were in Washington with the First Lady Jill Biden. President Biden was signing an initiative on federal funding into the women's health.

Now, Joe Biden has made this an issue for herself. In part, I think it's fair to say, because of Rosalynn Carter, because she changed the role of first lady. I mean, now, it's almost like you even don't want to say that words first lady. We've now got a first gentleman at the VP level.

[19:45:01]

But, first lady still at the presidential level is what it's always been. She worked tirelessly on mental health reform. She chaired the president's commission on mental health. I'm talking, of course, Mrs. Carter.

She was the first to establish a first lady's press office, the first to represent the U.S. on diplomatic trip overseas.

SHRIVER: Yeah.

BURNETT: She even went to cabinet meetings, right? I mean, this was also different. And at one point, reflecting back, early 1990s I think it was, Maria, she said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALYNN CARTER, FORMER FIRST LADY: I think the role of women has changed and as the role of women has changed, the role of the first lady has changed. I don't think we will ever go back to have a first lady who just entertains and pours tea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: She has been right so far. But, you know, the thing, Maria, is --

SHRIVER: Yes, she's right about that.

BURNETT: I mean, you've experienced this yourself as first lady of California. You completely change that role and how you lived your life and your own life and your own career.

So, what's impact did Rosalynn Carter have on the whole concept, and here I'll use different words, of being a presidential spouse?

SHRIVER: Well, I think she -- you know, for everybody that are 50 something, I don't know how many first ladies there are throughout the country, obviously, there's at the federal government. But it's a formidable role. You can do a lot as a first lady.

I think anybody who steps into that role should look at Rosalynn Carter. And to see what she did with that role, you can make it your own, you can decide, oh, I don't want to do much at all with it. But if you step into it, there's tremendous power. You can use it as a start-up. You could be an entrepreneur with it. You can be creative with it, you can create incredible change with it. And I think she wanted to show women that they were formidable, that they were smart, that they could be equal partners.

The idea of a woman being an equal partner was very new, right? It is still people are like, whoa, when women are equal partners. I think that I looked to her as a model for somebody who took the job seriously.

When I stepped into the first lady of California, I give up my journalism job and I was like, what is this job? I don't want to pour tea, either. I want to make it something that matters. I want to help change peoples' lives. And you can do that in the role. And so, I think many people don't

know what a first lady does and it changes, obviously, by whoever's in that office. But that office has tremendous power, and those people have tremendous power to make a difference in our country.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Maria, thank you very much. I appreciate your time tonight.

SHRIVER: Thank you, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. And next, the artificial intelligence world is rocked tonight, as Microsoft waste no time hiring the man at the forefront of technology. Who is Sam Altman? Special report next.

And the White House with a powerful message for Elon Musk tonight. But is it enough?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:52:00]

BURNETT: Tonight, open revolt at OpenAI. Nearly every employee is threatening a mutiny. This after the board of OpenAI, the company behind ChatGPT, fired its cofounder and CEO, Sam Altman. Just 60 hours later, even as the tech world thought Altman would get his old job back, and certainly he could do anything he want in the world, all the money would have been there for him, he accepts a job at Microsoft.

Tom Foreman is OUTFRONT

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAM ALTMAN, CEO & CO-FOUNDER, OPENAI: OpenAI is the most advanced and most widely used A.I. platform in the world now.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's Sam Altman, cofounder of OpenAI earlier this year, talking up the company's success and praising his checks and balances.

ALTMAN: No one person should be trusted here. I don't have super voting shares, like I don't want them. The board can fire me, I think that's important.

FOREMAN: But this is him now after being fired, waving a company visitor badge and posting first and last time I ever wear one of these.

OpenAI rolled out ChatGPT only a year ago, a dazzling artificial intelligence platform capable of humanlike writing, calculations, coding. Altman who launched the project with Elon Musk was the quirky genius behind the curtain.

ALTMAN: Silicon Valley has become one of the most accepting places in the world for failure.

FOREMAN: He learned a code at the age of eight, dropped into and out of Stanford. Dove into the computer start-up business, became fabulously wealthy, and the little cagey.

I prepped for survival, he told "The New Yorker" in 2016. I have guns, gold, antibiotics, batteries, water, and the big patch of land in Big Sur I can fly to.

ALTMAN: We're here because people of this technology. We think it can be a printing press moment.

FOREMAN: But even as he ballyhooed ChatGPT, he acknowledged concern of how it might twist information, take jobs, take charge.

ALTMAN: My worst fears or that we caused significant, we, the field of technology, the industry, caused significant harm to the world.

FOREMAN: Sources told a CNN contributor, tensions erupted with the OpenAI board over how aggressively the technology should advance. Company officer says, no, Altman was not consistently candid, and that interfered with the board's oversight. Whatever the reason, here comes Microsoft.

SATYA NADELLA, MICROSOFT CEO: We love you guys. You guys have built something magical.

FOREMAN: Two weeks ago, Microsoft CEO was raving about his company's 13 billion dollar investment in OpenAI. Now, the tech giant says Altman and another cofounder will be joining Microsoft to lead a new advanced A.I. research team.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: And potentially, taking with him, hundreds of employees from OpenAI.

FOREMAN: It's true. More than 500 OpenAI employees have signed a letter saying, we are unable to work for or with people that lack competence, judgment, and care. Microsoft has assured us that there are positions for all OpenAI employees.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:55:04]

FOREMAN (on camera): Of course, CNN is reaching out to all major players to see if they have anything else to say. But no matter what they do say, Erin, this is astonishing, this company that last November shook up the world is now itself being badly rattled -- Erin.

BURNETT: But the whole thing is an unbelievable socket. Tom Foreman, thank you very much.

FOREMAN: You're welcome.

BURNETT: And next, the White House sending a message to Elon Musk after his embraced of an antisemitic tweet. But is it enough?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: Tonight, the White House sending a signal to Elon Musk. But, so far, it lacks a lot of teeth. The White House joining social media platform Threads, which is a competitor to X, formerly known as Twitter, of course, owned by Musk.

Well, the president himself announcing the move and directing people to go to Threads.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're live, folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Well, the White House will keep its X account. But, the reason for this small move is something significant. Musk explicitly endorsed an antisemitic conspiracy theory on his platform, and others have taken a strong stance. Major advertiser including Apple, Disney, and CNN's parent company Warner Bros. Discovery, have pulled spots from the platform. Public outrage has prompted big names to abandon both Musk and X.

The White House's decisions of join Threads gives the Mark Zuckerberg controlled platform added credibility, accounts for the president, first lady, vice president, second gentleman have also all been created on Threads.

We will have a special report tomorrow, and the U.S. government's relationship with Elon Musk, and his companies, like the Pentagon's $70 million deal with SpaceX for Star Shield, which is a communication system based on the Starlink system of satellites it's been in Ukraine. So, should the administration be putting their money where their mouth is? That's a special report coming up tomorrow.

Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

It's time now for "AC360".