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CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Interview With Nancy Pelosi

Aired October 27, 2001 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AL HUNT, CO-HOST: I'm Al Hunt. Robert Novak and I will question the newest member of the congressional Democratic leadership.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: She is Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi of California who, in January, will become the House minority whip.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Many of the offices on Capitol Hill remain closed this week, as traces of anthrax continue to be found.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Anybody who puts poison in mail is a terrorist. Anybody who tries to affect the lives of our good citizens is evil.

NOVAK: The House of Representatives was in session, passing a Republican-sponsored tax stimulus bill by two votes, but taking no action on an airport security bill.

BUSH: We believe the best way to stimulate and restore confidence to the economy is not through additional spending, but through tax relief.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), MINORITY LEADER: The best economic stimulus bill is a good airline security bill. We will never get this economy back on track until we get people back in the air.

NOVAK: Nancy Pelosi, a former chairman of the California Democratic Party, was elected to Congress in 1987 from a San Francisco district. She was recently elected party whip, the second-ranking post in the House Democratic hierarchy; the highest congressional leadership position ever held by a woman.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Congresswoman Pelosi, how do you feel the government administration is doing in handling this anthrax scare, the finding of the anthrax traces all over Washington; people have died, many people have been infected with it. How do you think they have handled it?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE WHIP-ELECT: Well, we certainly are on new territory, don't you agree, Bob? I think the question will be how we deal with it from here. This is, as President Bush says, an act of terror -- anyone who would poison the mail. The main goal of terrorists is to instill fear, and that is exactly what they are trying to do. And how we meet the challenge will determine whether they are successful or not. I certainly think that we should have looked to the postal service sooner, if mail was the goal -- as soon as we saw that, to hopefully, perhaps, to have protected the lives of those who died.

But it's how we go -- where we go from here. The CDC -- we must follow science. The CDC, I think, should lead the way on how we protect, inoculate against, literally and figuratively, against anthrax, but also to protect the American people. I think we were taken by surprise, but the judgment will be on how we deal with it.

NOVAK: So you, then, Ms. Pelosi would agree with experts who were quoted in the "Wall Street Journal" on Friday as saying that the government was unprepared -- "unprepared" was the word used -- for this crisis?

PELOSI: We certainly were not as prepared as we needed to be to protect the people who were vulnerable. The minute we saw that there was a letter in Senator Daschle's office we should have looked to protecting the postal workers. We were unprepared from the start, but I think we could have moved more quickly to protect the postal workers.

NOVAK: How can you justify, too, Ms. Pelosi, the fact that congressional aides were treated at a better level than the postal workers -- given earlier testing and treatment. Are they more valuable than postal workers, or was that a mistake by the government in giving special treatment to your employees?

PELOSI: I don't think that it was a mistake to give them special treatment. I think it was a mistake not to include the postal workers. Let me say that this all happened within the context of September 11, where we all came together, Democrats and Republicans alike, Congress and the president of the United States. We stood side by side with the president in a very unified way in the effort to fight terrorism wherever it existed in the world.

No one foresaw the onslaught of anthrax. The response was immediate to those who were obviously exposed. We should have thought further, that if a letter -- if it gives exposure to workers in the Capitol, then the mail probably was making the postal workers vulnerable as well.

But that's that. I mean, it's no use talking about that. What we have to do is go forward from here.

HUNT: Congresswoman, from what you know, do you believe that there is a direct link between what occurred on September 11 and what's happening with anthrax now?

PELOSI: I can't really give you any documentation to that, but I do think that they are linked. Let me say, because you're asking about what could have been done, what should have been done: One thing that we should do is to provide airport security.

This is a place where if we fall down here, the American people would have every justification for thinking that we have not performed our jobs. We have an opportunity. The Senate has passed 100 to nothing an airport security bill. We have it in the House of Representatives. We've asked our leadership. And by -- I think our Speaker Hastert would want to bring the bill up...

HUNT: We will get to that.

PELOSI: ... there are a few in the House who won't. I hope that we will, because that is a prevention that we know of and that we can take, but that we're losing time on.

HUNT: I promise you we'll get to that in a minute, but let me just follow up on this. There have been -- there were reports from the government -- high government officials earlier this week, that the anthrax form was so pure, so concentrated, so potent, that it was highly likely that it came from a foreign source of some sort. But over the weekend, Bob Woodward, one of the most famous investigative reporters of all time, said that the CIA and the FBI now say it is more likely that it came from a domestic hate group. Which do you think it is?

PELOSI: I don't know. You know, I have not been, as a senior Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, if this information were available to us, I would know; and I really don't know. I suspect that there is some linkage between September 11 and the anthrax scare that we're going through now.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: ... modus operandi of Osama bin Laden -- and that is to be an opportunist, to exploit whatever acts of terrorism are out there in his own timing. So it would make sense. However, we just don't know.

You do know, however, that there have been anthrax scares against -- threats against abortion clinics in the past from the Army of God. And I'm not saying that there's any linkage between this -- what's happening now and that. I'm just saying that the anthrax threat is not brand new, domestically.

NOVAK: Ms. Pelosi, soon after your election as whip, although you won't take office until January, you were given the privilege of addressing the country in the weekly radio address, following the president's, and you said this -- and we'll put it up on the screen. You said: "It is unacceptable to hold America's safety in the sky hostage to the political agenda of a handful in the House of Representatives," end quote.

Weren't you just declaring that bipartisanship is over, and that because the Republicans have a disagreement on whether the screeners should be government employees and members of government workers unions, that you were ready to blow up bipartisanship? PELOSI: I said a handful in the House of Representatives. I think our speaker would be willing to bring this bill to the floor. But there are a handful, for the reason that you just said, and you said it so cavalierly that I'm amazed, really, that some in the House would say we shouldn't have airport security legislation pass the House -- the same legislation that passed 100 to nothing in a very bipartisan way in the United States Senate -- because some of these people might be unionized and support Democrats.

How can the American people accept that? So no, I don't think bipartisanship is dead, but I think we take it one issue at a time. Certainly an issue of fighting terrorism, there is strong bipartisanship. And then we try to find our common ground wherever it is. But when we don't, we have to stand our ground; and I think we must stand our ground on behalf of the American people and say that we must have airport security. It is essential; it is essential.

Security is essential to our transportation system, which is essential to our economy. We've got to get people traveling again. We've got to fill up those planes. We've got to get our economy moving, literally and figuratively. And where we have a disagreement with our colleagues, then that is what the public sent us there to do, is to debate the issues.

HUNT: Congresswoman, you were -- there was a bipartisan support this work for an anti-terrorism bill that made it through the House by a lopsided margin. You voted for it. Yet that bill would give -- you have a 92 percent ACLU voting record, but the ACLU opposed that bill. Among other things, it would give prosecutors, including Attorney General John Ashcroft, the right to virtually indefinitely detain a suspected terrorist without judicial review. How do you assure your constituents that that won't be abused?

PELOSI: Well, obviously I have grave concerns about civil liberties in our country at a time when we are trying to fight terrorism, but I came down on the side of saying that our law enforcement and national security people needed additional tools. Certainly, the technology calls for us having what one of the things that is in the bill is the roving wire taps applied to terrorists. People don't just use a hard line anymore. They have cell phones. Sometimes they dispose of them as used tissues. Once they use it, they move on to another phone.

So there are parts of the bill that we have to have. I don't -- I think that the bill has been improved in the legislate process. I still have a discomfort level with some of it, but there is a seven- day limitation on how long you can hold a person, and that was an improvement over the indefinite.

Now, as you say, there are some instances where they could stretch that out, but I would hope that the legislative debate and congressional intent would dictate to our law enforcement to tread very carefully there.

HUNT: Congresswoman, we are going to have to take a break now, but we will be back in just a moment to ask Nancy Pelosi about how the war in Afghanistan is going.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Nancy Pelosi, there have been no new reports of U.S. commandos inserted in Afghanistan. The anti-Taliban fighters say they would wish the United States would give them better support on bombing, and the famous anti-Taliban commander Abdul Haq was captured and executive Friday -- or Thursday. Do you have some apprehension that the war is not going that well in Afghanistan?

PELOSI: Well, I always have apprehension about the use of force as you well know, Bob, but I do trust our military leaders to tell us that we are on schedule for what they want to do. No question there was -- the assassination of Abdul Haq was a setback. He was a person who had been committed to multi-ethnic government in Afghanistan, and his death is a setback, as was the death and assassination of Massoud a couple days before the September 11 attack on our own country.

These are not -- these are people who are respected, they have fought against the Soviets -- who have fought against the Soviets for years. They had the credibility and the respect of the Afghan people. In Abdul Haq's case, he is from the south, so it was an additional resource to those who were interested in setting up a multi-ethnic government in Afghanistan.

So that is not a plus, but in terms of the war itself -- the military leaders tell us that it's going on schedule. I was interested today to read that General Musharraf has said that he hopes that the war would -- the bombing would end soon, and that we would move to a more of a political strategy. I don't know if that's a signal from him that he could only sustain his support for so long, but I think that -- or maybe it was for public consumption in Pakistan that he said that.

NOVAK: In that connection, Ms. Pelosi, the chairman of the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Biden, in answer to a question said that he feared that if the bombing continued that the Islam and the Muslim world would, however incorrectly, see us as a high-tech bully. Do you agree with that?

PELOSI: Well, as you know, Senator Biden's comments were said to be taken out of context. I saw the hearing well into the night the other night where Senator Helms and other Republican senators have said that that was not an accurate characterization of what he said.

But let me tell you what I think instead. I think that we have to be careful about how our actions are viewed in the Muslim world. We don't -- certainly I think people know that we respect the religion of Muslim and its practice throughout the world, but we have to remove all doubt in that regard. And I think that our timing has to be what we have -- we have to take out the command and control of the Taliban forces. We have to take out their communication systems. We have to take out their anti-aircraft capability if we are sending our own people in.

So our timing has to relate to how we protect our young people who are now going into harm's way in the bombing raids, but also -- yes, sir.

HUNT: You are the ranking Democratic member on the House Intelligence Committee. You have a lot of expertise there. As you know, the American intelligence officials were actually saying publicly several weeks ago that we anticipated big defections from the Taliban. It hasn't taken place. Is that because of faulty American and Pakistani intelligence, or why?

PELOSI: I don't know that it has been given all the time it needs. And when I say I don't know, I don't know. I do know that there are those who may not be Taliban but who may be sort of caught in between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance who will be swayed by the appearance of who is going to prevail in all of this -- not just the Northern Alliance, but the U.S. efforts there.

So success will breed success there. There's no question about it, not just with defections, but with winning the allegiance of those who are really not one or the other, who are not Taliban -- who are not Taliban.

HUNT: Let me ask you...

PELOSI: But again, I'm one who is reluctant to use force to begin with, so I hope that this does not last long. But I think that, again, as long as we are engaged in it, command and control communication, anti-aircraft have to be taken out if we are going to have to strengthen our political hand in this.

HUNT: Just very quickly, to put -- to keep together a global coalition we are having to make certain concessions in other areas. For instance, it's now said that we are now going to have to soft- pedal human rights criticisms against China in order to keep China in this coalition. Is that a necessary compromise?

PELOSI: Here's what I think about that, not to be specific about China. I think that the strength our country has are our values. That is who we are, that's what we have to be true to. And I think more than ever our commitment to human rights and promotion of freedom throughout the world is very, very important, and not in any way to be diminished.

I think the alleviation of poverty and some of the goals of our foreign policy, our humanitarian assistance throughout the world is going to be very, very important because, separate from this incident, much violence springs from the fury of despair that people have where they have no options -- they have no economic options. And we have to be a leader in the world to say that our policies will lift people up politically, economically and more -- now, in my view, more than ever we have to be true to that principle of our foreign policy that promotes democratic principles and respect for each individual on the face of the earth.

NOVAK: One quick question, Ms. Pelosi, before we take a break. You're a senior member, a senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. A lot of discussion whether George Tenet, the CIA director, is doing a good job. Should he go or stay? PELOSI: I think George Tenet is doing an excellent job. We're really very fortunate to have him where he is, and I most certainly believe that he should stay, and I think that he will.

HUNT: Nancy Pelosi, we're going to take a break right now, but we'll be back in just a minute with "The Big Question" for Congresswoman Pelosi.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: And now "The Big Question" for Nancy Pelosi.

Congresswoman, as you know, over a month ago President Bush said that a primary American goal was to get Osama bin Laden dead or alive. This week in an interview with "USA Today," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said: "I just don't know whether we'll be successful," end quote, in getting bin Laden.

My question to you is: However you define success in this war, is it possible without getting Osama bin Laden?

PELOSI: Oh, absolutely. I think that it would be important to get Osama bin Laden, but I think that success can be defined in stopping terrorism wherever it exists. He has set in motion what he is going to set in motion. And I think that -- I agree with President Bush when he said, we will bring him to justice, we will bring justice to those who perpetrated this, but justice will be done.

What's important for us is to stop terrorism, to root it out wherever it is. And I would not define it by bringing in Osama bin Laden dead or alive, however desirable a goal that is.

NOVAK: Ms. Pelosi, a lot of people on the Hill that I've talked to say they would much rather have him dead than alive, that the last thing that we need is a trial where a lot of lawyers attack the United States foreign policy. Would you rather have him dead than alive?

PELOSI: Let me say this, that he would rather have himself dead than alive. He fears two things: dying a natural death, because that means he hasn't been part of the jihad that will take him to the other side; but the other thing that he fears most is being captured by the Americans. He's given his people, including his own son, orders to kill him immediately if there's any thought that he would be captured by the Americans.

So that, I think, is an elementary discussion. But in any event, he -- the terrorism goes well beyond Osama bin Laden, and we have to stop it, not just him.

NOVAK: Nancy Pelosi, thank you very much. And congratulations on your election.

Al Hunt and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HUNT: Bob, the one thing Nancy Pelosi wanted to talk about today was airport security. She brought it up when we were talking about the anthrax scare. It's going to come up in the House this week, and I think that the congresswoman is a smart politician, knows the Democrats are on the winning side on that one.

NOVAK: Al, she -- this is not the time to sound too partisan, too critical, and so she said, we don't want to talk about the past on anthrax, we want to talk about the future. But she made it clear that nobody was prepared for this, including the administration.

HUNT: But you know, when she criticizes, and I think you're saying this, she does it with a velvet glove, when she hits. She's going to be a very effective politician.

One thing I was surprised, and I actually disagree with her on, is her comment about bin Laden. I still believe that unless we get bin Laden, there's no way you can declare success.

NOVAK: I don't know if this is going to happen, but the talk around town is that she could end up, some time in the future, in the next decade, as the first female speaker of the House. And so America got a first look at her. She's a pretty effective politician, I think.

HUNT: She sure is.

NOVAK: I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

NOVAK: CNN's coverage of "America Strikes Back" continues.

HUNT: Thanks for joining us.

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