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CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Interview With Tom Daschle

Aired December 08, 2001 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AL HUNT, CO-HOST: I'm Al Hunt. Robert Novak and I will question the Capitol's most powerful Democrat.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: He is Senate Majority Leader Thomas A. Daschle of South Dakota.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Senator Daschle failed Friday to add $15 billion in anti-terrorism spending to the defense appropriations bill.

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D-WV), APPROPRIATIONS CHAIRMAN: We do not seem to be able to pull together in this town for America, even in this time when the people of the United States are united.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: We've got our men and women on the ground, and in the air, and at sea. We should not revert back to political positioning and amendments that cause difficulty for one party.

NOVAK: In the short time left for this year's session of Congress, the Senate faces partisan struggles over an economic stimulus bill and aid to farmers and the insurance industry.

Tom Daschle entered the House of Representatives in 1978 at the age of 30. He became Democratic leader of the Senate in 1995 at age 47, the youngest party leader since Lyndon Johnson. He took over as majority leader this year when Senator James Jeffords of Vermont left the Republican Party.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Mr. Leader, the Republicans complain that the spirit of September 11 is gone; that, for the last three weeks, you have reverted to partisanship. Senator Lott, your Republican counterpart, says there is a black hole in the Daschle Senate, where Republican legislation, Republican nominations fall into eternity.

How do you respond to that, sir?

DASCHLE: Bob, I think some Republicans would tell you that if I don't agree with them, I'm partisan. As long as I agree, they're OK. But as soon as we disagree, that there's some partisan purpose. There is no partisan purpose. We have a job to do. We've got to try to find common ground, but sometimes that's difficult. On some of these issues, I think we owe it to the country to have a good debate, and that's what we're trying to do.

NOVAK: Let me give you a specific, Senator. Questions on the stimulus package, where neither the Republican or Democratic package had enough support -- when you said that you would not go for a stimulus package unless it had two-thirds of the Democratic caucus and support, the chairman of the -- the Republican chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Bill Thomas, got on a plane, went back to California over the weekend, cut off negotiations.

Now Senator Lott has said that you were just speaking symbolically about two-thirds, you really didn't mean that two-thirds had to be supporting it. What's the truth on that?

DASCHLE: Well, I understand now the truth is that Mr. Thomas had a fund-raiser to go back to. And we just learned that, of course.

But beyond that, that is really the truth. This is the same standard that I've applied to the airport security bill, the airline bailout, the counterterrorism bill, the supplemental that we passed in September.

I've used exactly the same criteria. We don't want a majority- plus-one in our caucus on these difficult issues. So it was a figure of speech, but it is something I feel very strongly about. I want a large majority in my caucus...

NOVAK: Two-thirds?

DASCHLE: Two-thirds is a pretty good figure. Ninety percent probably isn't necessary; but something over one-half is.

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, the chairman of the Senate Energy Committee, Senator Murkowski, says that you have refused to permit the committee to work, there's not going to be any energy legislation this year. And he spoke of you as I have seldom seen a committee chairman talk about a Senate majority leader in my long time in Washington, even if -- of the opposite party.

Let's take a look at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. FRANK MURKOWSKI (R-AK), ENERGY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: This abuse of the legislative process is outrageous. This concentrated action by the leadership to deny the committee members the opportunity to advise the Senate is reprehensible. The majority leader has abolished one of the standing committees of the Senate and crafted partisan legislation behind closed doors with special interests, without a whimper from the press.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Response?

DASCHLE: Well, this is something the Republicans did when they were in the majority time after time after time. This is a common practice when it involves more than one committee, Bob. In this case, there were five of six committees, depending on how you judge the involvement of some committees.

But a half-dozen standing committees, all who have a role, all who want to be a part of this. And so that's really the essence of -- the purpose in doing it this way. We wanted to be sure that we put all the contributions of the committees together, took it to the floor, had a good debate. That's what we're going to do in January of February.

HUNT: Mr. Leader, your Republican critics claim on a number of measures you were bottling them up in order to placate Democratic interest groups. Let me get your response on a few specifics.

The House just passed a fast-track trade bill, which is opposed by organized labor. Will that come to the floor of the Senate in the next three or four months?

DASCHLE: My expectation, Al, is that it will come to the floor. I've always supported fast-track, or trade promotion authority. We want to make sure that it's the right legislation. We want it to address the labor questions, the environmental questions, the agriculture questions that it should. I simply don't know that we're going to have time in the remaining days -- and they are days -- before Christmas.

So we'll find the time next year to take it up.

HUNT: Let me ask you about another one in those waning days. And that is, the House-passed bill to protect the insurance industry from any kind of catastrophic losses. Opposed by the trial lawyers. Will you be able to get that bill to the floor before you go out this December?

DASCHLE: I certainly hope so. We recognize that there are going to be a lot of expiring insurance plans for companies all over this country that have to be addressed. We want to find a way to ensure that they're not going to be exposed. We want to see if we can put in place some protection. We've been negotiating for the last couple of weeks, and I'm more encouraged now than I have been for some time that we're going to get the job done.

HUNT: Just one more question, going back to Bob's question about the tax -- about the stimulus package. Is it your position, on the stimulus package, that there can be tax cuts, but no permanent tax cuts?

DASCHLE: My view is that we really shouldn't reopen the tax-cut plan that was passed last spring. I don't think that there is much stimulative value in that. We are prepared to open up the stimulus plan to tax cuts of various kinds, but to redebate the entire fight from last spring, I think, would do -- would not serve us well, and I'm not supportive of it.

NOVAK: On the question of tax cuts, Senator Daschle, you have said, unless I misquote you, that the reason that the United States government has lost its surplus is the big tax cuts that were passed by the congress this years under President Bush's sponsorship. But I'd like to put some figures up on the screen that are carried by the Congressional Budget Office, which is a bipartisan -- or nonpartisan group. It says that tax relief has only amounted to 14 percent of the surplus deterioration. Spending is 23 percent. But the economy is 63 percent.

So doesn't that contradict your contention that tax cuts have created the erosion -- have contributed mainly to the erosion of the surplus?

DASCHLE: Bob, I think we have to look and see over what period of time we're talking about there. The Senate Budget Committee has analyzed these numbers as well. They have indicated, and reported to me, that 70 percent of the deficit to date is directly attributable to the tax cut.

So you have conflicting figures here, and I think it may depend on over what period of time we're talking about. I don't think there's any argument that the tax cut has created a large percent of the deficit. We also say -- want to make sure that people understand we have not spent a dollar more than what the president has requested on anything this year. On every single count, we've come within the budget guidelines presented by the administration.

So whatever additional spending there is, clearly is the responsibility of the White House, no the Congress.

NOVAK: Of course, the budget -- you're talking about the Democratic staff of the Budget Committee when you mention...

DASCHLE: Well, I'm talking about the Budget Committee, correct.

NOVAK: Now I want to ask you another thing, Mr. Leader, if I could. And that is, there are reports that you have asked Senator Kennedy -- suggested to him -- Senator Edward M. Kennedy -- that he not take any action on the -- final action on the education bill, which is a major priority of President Bush. is that true?

DASCHLE: That is not true, Bob. No, we have had a number of meetings on the education bill. I think they've come a long way. I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, we do get a conference agreement.

But what we have said from the very beginning is that we really have to provide the resources if we're going to provide the reform. You can't have reform without resources. And this bill is devoid of the resources you need. School districts all over the country have told us that.

But we hope that we can find some resolution, and I'm reasonably optimistic we will. HUNT: Mr. Leader, you had a clash with the White House this week over the question of more spending for homeland security, anti- terrorism measures -- still trying to work things out -- but you backed down from your original position.

Was this just about politics, really?

DASCHLE: Al, we didn't back down, we got beat. And we're disappointed we got beat, but you have to move on.

I believe very strongly that we've got to commit more resources to the acquisition of more smallpox vaccine, to the ability that we must have to protect our airports and nuclear facilities, to the need to work with local law enforcement. All of that was in our homeland security package. All of that is something that the administration is going to address next year.

This wasn't a question of if, it's only a question of when. We think we need those resources now, because the threat is serious now.

HUNT: Mr. Leader, we're going to take a break. But when we come back, we'll ask Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle about his former colleague Attorney General John Ashcroft.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: We're talking to Senator Daschle.

You stunned the insiders in Washington, brought up farm legislation, which won't expire -- the farm one won't expire until next year, and the reason some people say that you tell people in secrecy is that this is a MIMS strategy; it's for Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota and South Dakota. The incumbent Democratic senators in those states are up for reelection next year, is that correct?

DASCHLE: Well, I don't know the acronym, but it's also for New York, Florida, Texas, California, Washington state. Bob, this is an important piece of legislation. There are three reasons. One, we want the budget authority we've been given in this budget resolution for farm legislation. Two, we want to be able to ensure that there is a transition that goes from this current farm policy to the new bill. And third, we want to give as much of a heads up to farmers and ranchers as possible. Thirty-two farm organizations asked the Congress, asked the Senate to pass this legislation. We're attempting to respond.

NOVAK: Senator Lott on Friday said that you definitely were out of here on December 14. Farm legislation takes forever to get -- to ever to get passed. You've got this stimulus bill. You just told Al that you wanted to get the insurance bill passed, which, again, Senator Lott says it's not going to pass. You can't pass all that by December 14, can you?

DASCHLE: Oh, I don't think we'll probably finished by December 14.

(CROSSTALK)

DASCHLE: ... probably taking -- we'll be in to a period of time up until just about Christmas. I'm convinced that if we're going to get economic stimulus and the insurance bill and the appropriations bill is completed, there is no way we'll finish by the 14th.

HUNT: Senator Daschle, your former colleague Attorney General John Ashcroft told the Senate this week that critics of his anti- terrorist agenda, and I'm quoting him, "only aiding terrorists, eroding our national unity and giving comfort to America's enemies." Do you agree?

DASCHLE: Well, that's unfortunate rhetoric. I don't think we need that kind of hyperbole, frankly. I think what we've got to do is find the right balance between providing law enforcement with all the tools they need but doing the most we possibly can to protect civil liberties and the rights of all Americans and others. I don't there's any magical formula to the way we ought to do it, but I think it has to be done. Finding that balance isn't easy, but it becomes even harder with rhetoric like that.

HUNT: Well, let me ask you about some particulars. Only than saying that you favor limited use of military tribunals, you've been relatively quiet on the specifics here. I'd like to ask you if you are comfortable with the Ashcroft plan of secret detentions for interrogation of thousands of people of Middle Eastern descent, and also from the lawyer-client eavesdropping measures that he has proposed.

DASCHLE: Of course, that isn't necessarily connected to the military tribunals.

HUNT: No.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: ... how about those three? Are you comfortable with those?

DASCHLE: No, I'm not comfortable with them. I think that in some cases they may be required. After all, we are at war. We are in very difficult and trying circumstances, and we have to be cognizant of the need in some cases, very isolated cases, for actions such as this. But we need to be very careful, and I don't think you could be comfortable with this practice, even if that has to be done.

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, when Senator Lott talks about the Senate becoming a black hole, he's in particular talking about nominations, judicial nominations move very slowly and other nominations, because the thing that really I think upsets Republicans more than anything else is when you declared Eugene Scalia, nominee for solicitor of the Labor Department, you declared that nomination dead, apparently because he opposes the ergonomics position of the AFL-CIO, protecting workplace diseases. I thought that the president was supposed to have people of his own ideology on positions such as the lawyer in the Labor Department. DASCHLE: Bob, he has said that not only would he oppose ergonomics, but he would -- the impression he has left many of us is that he would even oppose the implementation, the administration of the rules that already exist.

NOVAK: So it's an ideological test.

(CROSSTALK)

DASCHLE: ... as well, but the law requires the propagation and the implementation of the rules that are now law. If he's unwilling to follow through with a commitment to administer the laws as they're written, that poses some serious questions. But I think what I said the other day is that I didn't think the votes were there for Mr. Scalia. And if the votes aren't there...

NOVAK: Why not put it up for a vote in the House and the Senate, then?

DASCHLE: Well, that may be something we do down the road, but I think at this point there are a lot of other nominations, there are a lot of other pieces of legislation that deserve consideration with far greater prospects for success.

HUNT: Sir, we have time for one final question. You have said all along that you thought the war on terrorism ought to be fought in sequences. Let's take care of Afghanistan first, and then we'll address, you know, other issues. It's now clear, I think, that the war in Afghanistan has been a success, and it's almost over. There are still important parts of it. And the issue will soon turn to Iraq. And I want to ask you if you think the policy of the U.S. government should be to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

DASCHLE: Well, the president hasn't asked us to do that. The president hasn't said that he's going to do that.

HUNT: But would you -- do you think that would be good policy?

DASCHLE: I think we've got to be very skeptical about taking that approach without a lot of consultation with our other allies, with people in the region, with our coalition around the world. I think it's a major step that certainly nobody ought to be prepared to go to today.

HUNT: Senator Daschle, we will be back in just a minute with "The Big Question."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: "The Big Question" for Tom Daschle.

Senator, it's been now almost two months since the anthrax letter was sent to your office. Investigators have been in constant contact with you. Do you now think that it's almost certain that this was a domestic rather than a foreign source, and do you place credence in the reports this week that it probably came from someone who used to work with the military?

DASCHLE: I think there is a lot to be said for that thought. I don't know that anybody can say with any authority that that's what happened, but I think as we look at all the possibilities, that one has the greatest degree of credibility right now...

HUNT: It was probably from someone who used to work in the military.

DASCHLE: Correct. That's correct.

NOVAK: Senator, I might ask you a question that I asked long ago to Lyndon Johnson and not so long ago to Bob Dole. Do you think it is possible for a sitting majority leader to run for president?

DASCHLE: Bob, I don't know, and I haven't given it any thought, so I really couldn't answer.

NOVAK: Just as a...

DASCHLE: I'd be interested in what Bob Dole and Lyndon Johnson said.

NOVAK: Well, they thought it was possible. But you mean, when you go to places like New Hampshire and Iowa, that hasn't anything to do with testing the presidential waters?

DASCHLE: I haven't been to New Hampshire. I've been to Iowa to help Tom Harkin, my colleague, to get reelected, but that's all I've done so far.

NOVAK: Thank you very much, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle.

DASCHLE: Thanks for having me.

NOVAK: Al Hunt and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Bob, there's been an onslaught of Republican criticism against the majority leader, but the Tom Daschle we saw today sure isn't backing down. I think he really believes the Democrats hold the upper hand on most of these domestic issues.

NOVAK: Well, he certainly didn't give us any bipartisanship. But the thing that really stunned me was when the senator said that the Senate was going to be in session up until Christmas. That's a shock to his colleagues, particularly after Senator Lott, his Republican counterpart, had set December 14 is the adjournment day.

HUNT: Change some of those vacation plans. You know, the effort to paint this guy as a mean-spirited partisan like a Tom DeLay, it's not going to sell. He's got a very effective, low-key style, and even when he's tough-minded, which he usually is, he doesn't come across as mean-spirited. NOVAK: It's the iron fist in the velvet glove. And people who watch this show cannot believe how much the Republicans detest him. They think he's the most partisan leader they've ever seen, more partisan than George Mitchell. But he has a soft voice, he smiles, he's very effective.

I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

NOVAK: Coming up at 7:00 p.m. on "CAPITAL GANG," the latest on the unrest in the Middle East, the partisan battle on Capitol Hill, and remembering Pearl Harbor with historian Stephen Ambrose.

HUNT: Thanks for joining us.

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