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CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Interview With Tom Ridge

Aired February 09, 2002 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: I'm Robert Novak. Mark Shields and I will question one of President Bush's commanders in the war against terrorism.

MARK SHIELDS, CO-HOST: He is Tom Ridge, director of the Office of Homeland Security.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHIELDS (voice-over): The first public briefing of Congress by CIA Director George Tenet since September 11, contained a warning.

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: We assessed that al Qaeda and other terrorist groups will continue to plan to attack this country and its interests abroad.

SHIELDS: To guard against this threat President Bush's budget sharply increases spending for homeland security, especially to fight bioterrorism.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My budget will commit almost $6 billion to defend ourselves against bioterrorism. As Tom mentioned, an increase of over 300 percent.

SHIELDS: The opening of the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics poses another security problem.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The largest theater for the United states is not Afghanistan today, it is, in fact, Salt Lake City.

SHIELDS: Tom Ridge saw combat in Vietnam as a staff sergeant. In 1982 he became that war's first enlisted man to be elected to the U.S. Congress. After 12 years as a house member, he was elected governor of Pennsylvania in 1994. With little more than one year remaining in his second term as governor, he resigned in October to become the first homeland security director.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SHIELDS: Tom Ridge, the Olympics are open, 15,000 security personnel, over $315 million in admitted costs for security. Are we seeing a preview of what life in America is going to be like? Is it going to -- will the World -- every civic event, whether it's the Super Bowl or the World Series or the Olympics -- is it going to be like a World Bank meeting, where we're closed off for blocks?

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Mark, I will tell you, most of those dollars were expended before September 11. They had a very rigorous, a very robust security plan because of Munich in '72, the bomb explosion in Atlanta in '96.

After September 11, obviously, they expanded and took it a little bit deeper, particularly with regard to air security, but, by and large, I think you're going to see any country that hosts Olympics -- it's a wide international stage -- will have to go to those kinds of lengths to provide maximum security.

SHIELDS: Beyond the Black Hawk helicopters, and the F-16s that are going to be evident and the AWACS planes closing down the air -- the area around the Olympics, what changes since September 11 have been made?

RIDGE: I think there have been some additional personnel, some additional security. Obviously, not only at the venues, but outside in some of the public arenas. But, primarily, it was -- had to deal with the potential of an aviation problem, and that's where they've concentrated it.

NOVAK: Governor Ridge, how are we to interpret CIA Director Tenet's warning that the al Qaeda have not been snuffed out in the mountains of Afghanistan, that they're alive and well? Does that mean that we can expect the kind of incidents that we had on September 11, or something attempted of that nature?

RIDGE: Well, I think it means we have to be prepared for it, and we shouldn't be surprised that tens, if not hundreds, of al Qaeda operatives, not just in Afghanistan, but in sleeper cells around the rest of the world, having been trained at these camps in Afghanistan, and potentially being trained at camps elsewhere around the world, towards the -- toward the end of bringing destruction and havoc and horror and death to the United States.

The possibility and the potential continues to exist and George Tenet's admonition that we still have to stay on guard because there are forces out there that would still do us harm.

NOVAK: In that connection, sir, we have been on alert in this country since -- well, on alert this very moment, since January 3rd. I have never quite understood, and a lot of people I don't think have understood, what does being on alert mean? Does it -- does it mean you get up in the morning with a cold sweat? Does it -- does it mean that you look in your closet to see if there's somebody there? What does being on alert mean?

RIDGE: Well first of all, Bob, I think it means that as individual citizens, whether you're on a plane as Mr. Reid found out, if you see something unusual, if you see -- there's a certain rhythm to life, a pattern to life, a pattern to communities. And if you see something unusual, just report it. It's not that we want you to do anything out of the ordinary, just be aware of your circumstances.

NOVAK: Wouldn't you say that even if you weren't on alert?

RIDGE: Well, I'm sure you would. But I think certainly September 11 gives us reason to be more acutely aware of our environment. But to the point that you've made -- and I've had some discussions -- a lot of discussions, actually, with the law enforcement community, who say we need to put these alerts in some kind of texture, you have to put some content around these alerts, and so, to that end, we have been working on a national alert system with federal authorities, state police, local police.

So that when we do get some information, we can share it with the law enforcement community, share it with the public, but put it in some kind of context to tell them that you need certain levels of preparedness if it's at this state of alert. Very much like the Department of Defense does and the State Department does.

NOVAK: There's no place in homeland security more acute and more obvious to Americans and of the greater concern than that of airline security. They -- the federalization of the personnel, which is imminent, and total takeover. But yet on Thursday, we learn of a passenger breaking into the secure cockpit, and but for a pilot's having an ax there, we might have had another disaster. I mean what does that tell us about where we are?

RIDGE: Well first of all I think we should be reassured and should understand that the airlines and the aviation industry today is far better prepared and far more secure than it was on September 11. It's not where we need to be, and it's not where we're going. But they have hardened the cockpits, and this individual was not able to penetrate to the cockpit door.

We have put our air marshals on flights, and there will be more. If we are federalizing the standards in the work force for the baggage screeners, we are going to in person -- and the folks entering the airport with their baggage that they, themselves will be checked. We are doing some other things with regard to technology.

So every step of the way we've made aviation more secure, but it's still not where we need to be. Finally, I would say to you that I think every able-bodied man and woman's now self deputized as an air marshal.

And to the point that we were talking before, you said that individual tried to light his shoes. That's a little unusual on an airplane. These people were vigilant, they were observant, they took care of it. The same thing happened -- not quite the same thing happened in that airplane going down to Buenos Aires, but the captain and the co-pilot took care of him.

SHIELDS: This week you spoke at the National Press Club where you were asked by a 67-year-old grandmother, she told about her experience of having been have her shoes taken off, go through her bag, which included Barney books and Swedish meatballs, and you said she didn't fit the profile. And you said that there was a possibility there would be a frequent flier ID, that that was under study. The status of it -- and does it in any way suggest two-tier citizenship where frequent fliers like Mr. Novak or, you know, jet around, or Mr. Shields who jet around the world get a special treatment?

RIDGE: Well, you probably have to pay for it if you want to be treated special. And one of the things we've discussed with the aviation industry is that they may want to use biometrics to speed some things along, and I think that it's worthwhile looking at whether or not the consumer -- the customer is willing to pay for a biometric card so that they...

SHIELDS: Take your own unique DNA would be...

RIDGE: Exactly. Their own iris scan, fingerprint scan, facial recognition, so that it might ease their pass through the gate and onto the airplane. Again, strictly talking to them on a voluntary capacity, but it does make some sense.

People pay quite a bit of money on an annual basis to go into the air club and have a cup of coffee and a Danish as they're waiting for the airplane. I'd suspect that the customer in the marketplace might suggest that people would pay a little bit more in order to get through a shorter line.

NOVAK: Governor Ridge, I'd like to go back to the question of this so-called banker from Uruguay kicking his way -- kicking his way into the cockpit. The -- he was subdued when the -- one of the pilots took the axe -- which is not intended as a weapon, it's supposed to be a -- as I understand it, it's supposed to be a device to cut your way through it in times of an emergency, and there are no weapons in the cockpit.

A majority of the airline pilots, majority of Americans would like to see the pilots armed as they say in the phrase, the jargon, to weaponize the cockpit. Governor, would you like to see, in view of incidents like this -- would you like to see the pilots armed?

RIDGE: I don't think it's necessary for them to be armed, but I'm going to let the FAA and the air and aviation industry make that final determination. It's pretty clear that we have made tremendous strides in securing the cockpits and securing the airports and securing the airplanes. It comes to a point of time whether or not you actually think you're going to need people in transportation actually armed. And I don't think the need has arisen yet, there are ways that we can prevent that.

But again, as we go about every single day, assessing and reassessing what we need to maximize security, I wouldn't say for all times and for all reasons, it won't happen. But at this point in time, I still don't think there's a need to put side arms on your pilots and co-pilots. There are other ways to protect them, and I think we've been doing that.

NOVAK: Sir, not long ago we were up in a tremendous state of anxiety about anthrax, people dying, people -- the idea perhaps this was coming from Iraq or it's part of the al Qaeda. It's pretty clear, I think, now, that this was a domestic source, this -- there was probably just one source. Can we say now whether or not you consider the anthrax scare, the anthrax menace, part of the terrorist attack on America, or a separate category of crime?

RIDGE: Bob, I'll tell you that my first instincts were, given the timing, so shortly after September 11, that it was a coordinated attack and that the source of the anthrax was probably international. I think all the investigation -- the FBI and the state and local law enforcement have done, they pointed that investigation inward, and I think it's much more likely today that the investigation and ultimately we'll get the perpetrator, it was a domestic terrorist.

NOVAK: It was an aberration then, it's not...

RIDGE: I think so.

NOVAK: Yes. Okay, we have to take a break, Governor. And when we come back, we'll ask Tom Ridge if he has enough authority to protect Americans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHIELDS: Governor Tom Ridge, you and the president have mentioned rather emphatically about the dramatic increase in spending in homeland security. But upon scrutiny, it looks 22 percent of that goes to the Department of Defense, 20 percent to transportation, 19 percent to the Justice Department, and I guess it really comes down -- once it goes to the Homeland Security Office itself, and in fact, have you become sort of a cheerleader for security rather than that principal CEO or commanding officer in -- on the line?

RIDGE: Well the president has given me the authority -- the budgetary authority I needed to -- $38 billion worth. We've also made some programmatic changes. I've -- I certainly have enough money to run the office. But the executive order creating the position said that it was my -- my mission to develop a national strategy and then to implement the strategy. And so I have plenty of authority. It's the president's priority, he's given me a mission, and I've got plenty authority to accomplish that mission.

And that includes, by the way, working with cabinet members and agencies, as well as, in these particular areas with regard to law enforcement, public health, firemen, policemen at the borders. That includes bringing people in from a local government, state government, international chiefs of police. So the dollar amounts that we sent to the Hill weren't just creations of our own -- of our own making. We engaged the departments, and we engaged the general population that would be affected by those appropriations.

SHIELDS: Just so I understand it, that's in 2000 -- that money is in 2000 different programs in 40 different agencies.

RIDGE: Well, I think that's -- that's a bit exaggerated. I mean most of those monies -- most of those dollars are going into HHS, and it'll be distributed over a couple of agencies, but NIH gets the bulk of that, and the state and local public health gets the bulk of it. Most of the money goes to FEMA.

It will be distributed through the states, down to the local governments to assist the firemen and the policemen and others, and to develop plans. So I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say it's going to be separated and go out to all those disparate agencies. There's a primary focus: borders, information sharing, public health and first responders.

NOVAK: Governor Ridge, when you came in last October, some of the old hands in Washington -- they said you would be chewed up by the established bureaucratic agencies. And indeed, your proposal to consolidate border security ...

RIDGE: Right.

NOVAK: ... that appears to have been the fate of it. I'd like to put on the screen a quote from a Justice Department official quoted in the "New York Times" this week about your border security plan. It said -- he said, "People really thought that Ridge got ahead of himself and tried to ram this through. It wasn't just the Justice Department, it was all the agencies that were going to be affected. All of them thought this was handled very poorly," end quote. Apart from the fact that this is an anonymous quote, did he have a -- is there some justification in that?

RIDGE: Well, I think there is justification in the notion that -- or understanding the notion that there are people in the town that would protect the status quo, who like the way things are. And the fact of the matter is, is that I did come forward and talked about a very aggressive new border arrangement.

And predictably, everybody that's been doing things the 20th Century way didn't want to think about doing anything the 21st Century way. So right now, we have all those agencies trying to reach an agreement. What are the goals in the 21st Century border? Certainly they have to be more secure.

But we also have to do a better job of facilitating commerce. Could we do a better job interdicting drugs? Shouldn't we do something a little bit different with immigration? So, this is not over yet. I mean I -- this is a decision that could go from just a technology overlay over all these agencies to some form of consolidation, so I'm not done yet.

And hopefully the individuals that you referred to in that article doesn't think that we've completed our assessment of the borders, and that we've withdrawn our challenge to them to think differently about delivering the American service at the borders.

NOVAK: But I want to include somebody by name. Congresswoman Jane Harmon of California, who is the ranking Democrat on the terrorism subcommittee in the House, says that your border consolidation plan was dead on arrival. Not correct?

RIDGE: Well I didn't -- Jane and I have had some good conversations about the office, and about some of the changes that we need, and if we ever get to a position where we make some adjustments at the border, we're going to need Jane's help and everybody else. So I hope prematurely they don't ...

NOVAK: So ...

RIDGE: ... draw conclusions

NOVAK: ... it's not dead on arrival, you're saying?

RIDGE: ... not in my mind it isn't.

NOVAK: Okay.

RIDGE: We still have those discussions going on with the agencies.

SHIELDS: Governor Ridge, nobody questions the closeness of your relationship, the trust and confidence between you and the president.

RIDGE: Right.

SHIELDS: But by failing to seek statutory authority, by making it formal in the law and getting Congress to act so that your position is officially established, haven't you almost guaranteed that whoever your successor is has to have a similar relationship with the president? That he has to be a confidant and an intimate of the president?

RIDGE: No, I think this position, hopefully, will be a permanent part of government in America, in perpetuity. I mean there will always be multiple agencies that have different functions dealing with homeland security.

They're always going to have an emergency management agency, the attorney general's always going to be involved, the intelligence community's going to be involved. There's a range of agencies. So you'll always need someone to help coordinate that activity.

That's not to say that somewhere down the road, even part of a longer-term recommendation that I would make to Congress, or that Congress would initiate themselves, that they may -- they may want to consolidate, or we may recommend that they consolidate some of these agencies so that you always will have multiple agencies dealing with homeland security just as Dr. Rice has multiple agencies dealing with national security. Somebody should be the adviser to the president in terms of coordinating, acting as an intermediary and bringing the agencies together.

NOVAK: Governor Ridge, we have a situation in Washington today where not only can't cars go on Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House, much of the time it's closed to pedestrian...

RIDGE: Right.

NOVAK: ...traffic. The tours at the White House are very sharply limited, as they are in Capital Hill. The school tours to Washington have just about been canceled. Isn't this kind of supporting Osama bin Laden's goal to kill freedom in America?

RIDGE: Well, Bob, you know, you raised an interesting point. I can recall coming out of church a couple of weeks ago, and a fellow said to me, "I wanted to take my family down to Washington, but I couldn't get into this place and I couldn't have access to another public building." And I think there's a -- we're very sensitive to that, and I think you're going to see some changes with regard to access to the White House in the next couple of months.

There's a discussion going now -- on now with the Mayor and the community about how we can deal with traffic in front of the White House. So I think we're very sensitive that we want to remain open, we want to remain accessible. We understand we have to be far more security conscious, but I don't think we -- at the end of the day, we will be so security conscious that we will limit access to some of these extraordinary monuments that represent the freedoms of our country.

NOVAK: We'll have to take a break, but I have to ask you, are you -- were you suggesting that you're going to reopen traffic in front of the White House?

RIDGE: Well, they're talking about -- there are several different plans to use that avenue for different ways. I mean they're talking potentially about a tunnel. There a lot -- there a lot -- of different suggestions that are being discussed between the White House, the Secret Service and the local community, because they're sensitive to the need.

NOVAK: We have to take another break, and when we come back we'll have "The Big Question" for Tom Ridge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHIELDS: "The Big Question" for Governor Tom Ridge, Director of Homeland Security. Governor are we Americans safer today than we were on September 11?

RIDGE: Absolutely, and every day we get stronger. We have more people at the borders. The Coast Guard's doing a better job of taking resources and committed them to the ports. You have state and local communities working in closer collaboration before. The intelligence and information sharing is unprecedented. You've got businesses taking a look places of vulnerability. I mean the list goes on and on and on. You've got people working on cyber-security.

So, since September 11, not just the federal government, the state and local government, but individual citizens, technology companies are looking for answers and technological solutions to some of our security challenges. So ,September 11 has driven and tripped the creativity and the energy of this country. We're much more security conscious, and everybody's working to make the homeland more secure.

SHIELDS: Tom Ridge, I yield to no man in my admiration for the Coast Guard, but we are continental nation with oceans on both sides, and the Coast Guard actually has fewer personnel than the New York City Police Department.

RIDGE: Right.

NOVAK: Aren't we kidding ourselves by saying that we can really protect all the coasts?

RIDGE: Well, I think in the business of securing the homeland, you have to assess risks and vulnerabilities. Clearly, with the massive coast lines that we have, we'll never be able to have visual protection on every line. But you know we are going -- the president's made an unprecedented commitment to the Coast Guard. They brought in 2,000 reservists, and we're going to have to continue to build capacity in the Coast Guard, build capacity in the INS, build capacity in Customs. That the president, and the Congress, has done, along with a lot of other additions to the security forces that we had before. It has now become the nation's number one priority, and the president has driven it with that budget to begin building that capacity.

SHIELDS: Governor, Tom Ridge, thank you very much for being with us. My partner, Robert Novak and I will be back, in a moment, with a comment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Mark, if Tom Ridge is mainly a cheerleader, he's a terrific cheerleader, but he didn't deny that the bureaucrats, the established departments in Washington, had killed his plan for border security consolidation. But he said he hasn't given up. He's going to stick to it. He hasn't succumbed to the bureaucrats of Washington yet.

SHIELDS: Bob, that -- that Tom Ridge is an intimate with total confidence, total trust of President George W. Bush, nobody in Washington should doubt. But even he understands that it may be necessary, at some point, to consolidate that power, formally and structurally in his office to raise it to cabinet level in the future.

NOVAK: You'd expect that the director of homeland security would be security conscious, but what I was cheered about was that he is worried about the incursions on our freedom by this war against terrorism. I was particularly cheered that he at least suggested that Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the White House may be reopened.

SHIELDS: You were also cheered, let's be frank, by the possibility that there'll be a frequent flyer card available for frequent flyers that would store on there the physical information necessary to identify that person so they'd be spared those two-hour waits at the airport.

I'm Mark Shields.

NOVAK: I'm Robert Novak.

SHIELDS: Coming up at 7:00 p.m. on "CAPITAL GANG," Enron and the al Qaeda menace. NOVAK: That's all for now. Thanks for joining us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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