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CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Interview With Al Sharpton

Aired March 09, 2002 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AL HUNT, CO-HOST: I'm Al Hunt, Robert Novak and I will question one of the African-American community's leading political figures.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: He is the Reverend Al Sharpton, founder and president of the National Action Network. I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, Al Hunt and Al Sharpton are in New York City.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): With presidential primaries two years away, Al Sharpton has joined other potential candidates on the trail in New Hampshire and Iowa, seeking the Democratic nomination for president at age 47.

He was only 9 years old when he was licensed and ordained as a preacher. He was still in his 20s when became a familiar figure, leading direct action in the streets of New York.

At age 35, he founded the National Action Network, prior to campaigns for U.S. senator and mayor of New York City. He won more than 80 percent of the black vote, while losing, and, in 1997, forced a Democratic primary run-off for mayor.

Last year, his refusal to endorse Democratic nominee Mark Green for mayor contributed to Republican Michael Bloomberg's election. While Sharpton had no contact with Mayor Rudy Giuliani, Mayor Bloomberg has been a guest at the Reverend Sharpton's House of Justice in Harlem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, there are about 11 prominent Democrats thinking of running for president. Senators, governors, a former vice president. All of them, unlike you, have been elected to high office, with a lot more experience in government. What would you bring to the presidency that they would not?

AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: Well, first of all, I would bring a new vision. I would bring a commitment for regular, working class people. And I think just because one has been elected, I would argue that does not mean they have more experience with government. I have probably had more experience than most of them in framing and arguing and debating social policy, nationally, longer than at least half of them. Some of them just got elected to the senate a year or two ago.

So, you don't have to be in an elected position to really deal with government. what I think the challenge is for leadership in this country, is your policy and your vision and your ability to speak on behalf of many of the interests that will benefit most Americans. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have to have an elected position to have established that.

NOVAK: But Reverend Sharpton, although, as we said, you have done very, very well with the African-American vote in the New York races, you haven't done very well with the white vote. There are very few, if any, black voters in New Hampshire and Iowa. What -- what makes you think you will be able to get white votes in those primary states, which are necessary to do well in to run for president?

SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I think that we should not assume that people are so race-conscious that they will not deal with who will stand up on the issues, like environmental protection, which is one of the reasons I went and protested in Vieques last year, against the Navy exercises, or against an imbalance in the criminal justice system, or any number of issues that I will speak to that other candidates may not speak to.

And I think that just as you, Mr. Novak, asked me about white votes, I could do the reverse. I could ask some the potential opponents, what would make Asians vote for them, or Latinos, or blacks? I think that all of us will have try and say to all voters why they should vote for us. I don't think it's just becomes my burden. I think all of us have to expand beyond our base. When I have run in New York, I've gotten white votes -- 20 percent of the people that voted for me for mayor were white. So I don't think that the calculation is correct, nor do I think the burden is exclusively mine.

NOVAK: But almost all the Democrats I've talked to, sir, believe that the party, to win, must have an image in the middle of the road, such as Bill Clinton provided. Do you disagree with that.

SHARPTON: Well, I think that you've got to deal with where the road is. Before you can determine the middle of the road, you've got to deal with the fact that the road has shifted. we're in a new phase in American history now. We are just dealing with coming out of a recession, if we're to believe Alan Greenspan. We're dealing with higher unemployment. We're dealing with war all over the world, or rumors war. Clearly, we're engaged in a military operation in Afghanistan. So, the middle of the road today, is a lot different than 10 years ago, 1992, where the middle of the road was when Bill Clinton ran. It's a different road. Therefore, the middle must shift.

HUNT: Reverend Sharpton, you have declared that many of your potential Democratic rivals have moved too far to the right. Let's see where you are on a couple of issues, then. Taxes. Would you increase taxes? If so, how much, and on whom?

SHARPTON: Well, I don't think that it's a matter of increase. I think it's a matter of balance. What I would not do is continue this drift toward giving tax breaks to the higher income level of this country, and giving all kinds of tax breaks to major corporations. I would have everybody pay their fair share of taxes, which would mean, in my judgment, one, we would bring a lot more revenue to government, because a lot of the people that are making more would be paying their share. And secondly, it would not affect working and middle class people and working class people at all.

HUNT: Well, on the very wealthy, then, would you -- let me ask again -- would you increase taxes?

SHARPTON: What I would do is I would tax them. My argument is that, in many cases, they're not being taxed at all. For example, Enron. Enron, in the year 2000, had over $900 million net and paid no taxes. It's not about increase, it's about pay at all, in some cases.

HUNT: How about the defense budget? President Bush proposes $325 billion. Too much, too little or about right?

SHARPTON: Well, again, when you look at the $325 billion he's proposing, much of it has nothing to do with engaging in terrorism. A lot of it has to do with inflating the fat at the Pentagon, inflating a lot of things that people have tried to cut, in terms of the misspending and a big government. This is a president now, that said we've got to reduce big government. We've got to streamline big government. Yet, we're seeing in the $325 billion, a real inflation in terms of a lot of what is unnecessary, I think, for military operations. I would cut the unnecessary fat without cutting the national security needs of the country.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, as we have this conversation, there are American fighting men fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan. Putting it very bluntly, sir, do you support, unequivocally, this war in Afghanistan?

SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I think that we must respect the fact that we have fighting men on the ground, and that whatever one would say, we ought to say in respect and regard for the lives of American troops that are now facing war and some being killed, by the way. I think that, however, we must have more than a military engagement.

We should not undermine our military, and we certainly ought to beware of how critical we want to be while they're on the ground. But we also must have a peace initiative, a dialogue initiative, to make allies around the world. I do not think we need a one-prong attack on terrorism, but I think that even those of us that would disagree with some Mr. Bush's policy, must be very careful how we deal with it at this point. I think Mr. Bush has had a military answer only, and I don't think that's the wisest thing to protect America, nor do I think that the most human strategy.

NOVAK: Well, do you think then that the Democrats in Washington are -- have made a mistake in giving him a virtual blank check on his leadership of the war? SHARPTON: I think that they have, and I think that that is why when they have questioned it down the road, they have received some outrage because, in many ways, they should have questioned some of that going in. They should have questioned that all along.

I think that, in many ways, we've given him a blank check, not only in terms of the military operation, but we've given him a blank check in terms of the terrorism measures they've put into effect among the United States citizenry. When you look at the anti-terrorist act and the Patriot Act, which, in my judgment, begins to rescind some of the civil liberties and civil rights of all Americans, not just those of color. They gave him a blank check there, and I think that that is outrageous and will come to haunt the party in 2002 and 2004.

HUNT: Reverend Sharpton, do you agree with Minister Louis Farrakhan, who said that because of his conduct, we ought to consider -- there ought to be a consideration of trying President Bush as a war criminal?

SHARPTON: Well, one, you're asking me to agree that he made a statement that I don't know that he made that statement. I think that clearly, for me to be asked about statements, I would have be asked about my own statements. So that would very hard, Al, for me to respond to.

HUNT: Do you agree or disagree with that assertion?

SHARPTON: With what assertion?

HUNT: The assertion that President Bush's conduct is such he ought to be tried as a war criminal?

SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I think that Mr. Bush has done thing that I disagree with. I would have to understand what the allegations of raising it to the war crime level would be. Again, you asking me to defend something that didn't come from me?

HUNT: Final question. There has been escalating violence in the Middle East. Who do you think is primarily responsible? The Israelis or the Palestinians?

SHARPTON: Well, I think that it almost becomes a question now of how do you deal with it and stop it. I went to the Middle East, last year. I met with both Shimon Peres and, at his suggestion, met with Yasser Arafat. I think that what has to happen now is a real end of the cycle. There must be challenge, and I commend Colin Powell for standing up and saying to both sides, to Sharon and Arafat, "the violence must stop."

I do not think we can go in with a one-sided approach. There is absolute madness there. I was there. I talked to some of the people. It has inflated. I think the United States is belatedly beginning to do that, but they must begin to put pressure on both sides, not just on Mr. Arafat.

HUNT: Al Sharpton, we're going to take a break right -- for a moment. But when we come back, we will ask the Reverend Sharpton about Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Reverend Al Sharpton, since the September 11 terrorist attacks, the former mayor of New York City, Mayor Giuliani, has become a national hero. Is most of America wrong in loving the former mayor of New York?

SHARPTON: Well, I think the rest of America needs to know that what he did the last eight weeks in office does not reflect what he did for eight years.

He polarized the city and, in my judgment, did things to people of color and to working people that were reprehensible. He did handle the last eight weeks in an admirable way, but so did the mayor of Washington, D.C., Anthony Williams, who had to deal with the attacks on the Pentagon and the anthrax attack.

So it's amazing to me how we act like only one mayor in one city had to deal with the September 11 crisis.

NOVAK: As we said at the beginning of the program Reverend Sharpton, that you had -- that we hear New York City -- Michael Bloomberg is a guest at your House of Justice in Harlem.

How do you -- where do you specifically think that Mayor Bloomberg is going to be different than Mayor Giuliani?

SHARPTON: I don't know that he will. I hope that he will. I think that one thing he has done is he's shown that he will talk to all sides of the city, and that he's not going to play the polarization game.

What was gained out of eight years of Mayor Giuliani not speaking to people like me other than polarization? It doesn't reduce people's impact; it might even inflate it.

I think the one thing that Mr. Bloomberg has correctly done is say, I'm going to openly talk to everyone. Now, will that lead to better policies? We hope so. Time will tell. We're going to watch. We'll see where it goes.

I think that clearly, though, a better tone is set in the city. And in a time of crisis like this, tones mean a whole lot.

HUNT: Well Reverend Sharpton, the mayor's been in office now for 10 weeks. Could you grade Mike Bloomberg on his first 10 weeks and on his budget: fair or not?

SHARPTON: I think that his budget -- I took issue with his budget. I think that to have across-the-board cuts is to be unrealistic when you did not have across-the-board sacrifices coming in.

Many of the departments and agencies that he's cutting will have been cut throughout the Giuliani years; some were never cut. So to cut them equally is not to give the equal results. And I've expressed that to him and to his administration.

HUNT: Next week Mayor Bloomberg has decided he will march in the St. Patrick's Day parade, a parade that excludes gays. Was that a correct decision...

SHARPTON: I disagreed with it when other mayors have done it; I disagree now.

I think that you have to give people their civil rights. That to exclude people because of sexual orientation, I think...

HUNT: So he shouldn't march?

SHARPTON: I think he should not march.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, there -- it's six years since the welfare reform bill was passed. There has been, contrary to promises that were made by Democrats, no change in that law. There's now talk about a bipartisan approach, and the left and the right getting together on new touches on welfare reform.

I'd like to quote for you the former Clinton aide Bruce Reed, who said, quote: "The right has moved away from punishing the poor, and the left has moved away from sheltering the poor," unquote.

Do you agree with those statements?

SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I think that a lot of what is coming out now is we're beginning to see -- I saw that Secretary Thompson had to say this week, that we're not going to try to put poor people or welfare recipients on jobs that pay below the minimum wage.

I think there has been an insensitivity by Democrats and Republicans on people that had welfare assistance, because the connotation has been that they don't want to work, when the reality is that most people on welfare would prefer working if there were jobs available.

Job creation, training creation has not been, in my judgment, a priority of either party. And I think for two people who have been, in my opinion, measured wrong in the first place, to begin to agree with each other, doesn't give me any comfort because I think both of them are far too insensitive to people of poverty in this country.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, you were imprisoned because of your trespassing and your demonstration against the use of the Vieques firing range in Puerto Rico. Considering the problems of the African American people in New York, around the country, do you think you might have made better use of your time than sitting in a jail cell?

SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I don't think that any of us are limited to any one area. Secondly, you know, many years ago someone far greater than me, Dr. King, was challenged to just stay in civil rights when he opposed the Vietnam War.

So I think that we satisfied that issue 30 years ago, that civil rights leaders must deal with human rights causes wherever they are.

But secondly, I didn't choose the time, the judge chose the time, Mr. Novak. If you'd ask my preference, I might have done other things around the country instead of in jail. I did the time they gave me.

I'm glad that I stood up for Vieques. And if I had to again, I will.

But don't give me credit for the time, give me credit for the stand.

HUNT: Reverend Sharpton, another issue that you got involved in was the question of whether the African American studies program at Harvard was being treated fairly, and whether some of their scholars like Cornel West (ph) would stay at Harvard or go to Princeton.

That's obviously of interest to a number of elites, and you can get involved, as you said, in any issue you want to. But what possible relevance does whether the African American studies program goes to Harvard or Princeton -- what possible relevance does that have to the unemployed African American worker or the single mother?

SHARPTON: Well, the relevance is, I didn't get involved; they involved me.

In the conversation between the president of Harvard, Mr. Summers, and Mr. West, he raised Dr. West's involvement in the exploratory committee for my campaign. Therefore I had to respond, since the president of Harvard brought me into the discussion.

What does it have to do? It has a lot to do if you're going to question academicians on their political support of people that want to raise the issues of the unemployed and raise the issues of the victim.

It has a lot to do with politics of those regular people if people are going to in any way be punished for supporting candidates that give voice to them when they're unheard.

HUNT: We only have about 20 seconds left in this segment. But let me just ask you: 70 percent of African American babies are born to single mothers right now. What one thing would you do to change that?

SHARPTON: The one thing I would do is make sure that household heads can make a decent living. We must deal with training and job development. Many people must have the underpinnings to be able to feed a family to keep a family together.

HUNT: OK, we're going to take a break right now. But when ewe come back, we'll as "The Big Question" of Al Sharpton.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: And now "The Big Question."

Reverend Sharpton, it is said when you run for president, you can wipe some of the slate clean. There are a number of prominent Democrats, including some African Americans, who say you cannot be treated seriously until you deal with the issue of the controversy over Tawana Brawley, the case where a court found that you had slandered a prosecutor.

Are you willing now to say that you have any regrets about your participation in that case?

SHARPTON: In fact, you know, there's an appeal out. I think that I will probably win the appeal before 2004. To say -- people that said I shouldn't be taken seriously, one of them I beat in the election where I ran for U.S. Senate.

So again, if I don't take their warnings as seriously as they do, it may be because I've already proven we can go beyond that.

HUNT: No regrets?

SHARPTON: My only regret is that the jury did not listen to a young lady who had serious allegations.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, the -- two of the convictions in the Louima police brutality case have been overturned. Since they have been overturned, is there really any reason why these police officers cannot be returned to the New York City police force?

SHARPTON: Oh, absolutely. There are many reasons, including the "New York Times" and others have agreed with us on this. The same judges that issued a decision to overturn their convictions said that it was clear that they mislead and lied to federal and state investigators.

They said that the particular indictment they indicted under, they said it didn't reach the bar of proving that.

How can you put people back on the force that lied to the internal affairs and state and federal investigators that they have sworn to uphold the law for?

It would be unthinkable to reward officers for lying to other officers. And they mad be charged again under federal and state statute. We're in those meetings as I speak.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, thank you very much.

Al Hunt and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Bob, your question about Iowa and New Hampshire is absolutely on the mark as far as Al Sharpton running for president. Very small black populations in those states. He's got to do much better on some of those issues like taxes before he can be any kind of competitor.

NOVAK: But you'll have to admit, Al, that the Reverend Sharpton does draw the line between Republicans and Democrats. I think it would really be refreshing to have him as a Democratic nominee. No pussyfooting, no messing around in the middle of the road. Gives America a choice between left and right.

HUNT: Boy, that's the kiss of death. I think I'll take Louis Farrakhan as the Republican nominee.

I also think the Tawana Brawley case won't go away, and I think his adamance, his stubbornness about insisting he was right on that also is not going to play well over time.

NOVAK: Reverend Sharpton, Al, clearly supports our fighting men in Afghanistan, but he does not go along with the Democratic leadership in the Congress and supporting the way the president is handling the war. He really draws a fine line, a hard line, between his position and the president's position.

I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

NOVAK: Coming up at 7:00 p.m. on CAPITAL GANG, the latest fighting in eastern Afghanistan, unrest in the Middle East, and President Bush's steel decision with New York City's Mayor Michael Bloomberg and our "Newsmaker of the Week," Walter Cronkite.

HUNT: Thanks for joining us.

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