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Suicide Bombers Strike Israel Again

Aired June 19, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): A different vision of land for peace. Israel announces it will reoccupy Palestinian areas until terror attacks stop, and then it suffers another attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Hello and welcome.

A suicide bombing Wednesday that killed six people underscores the point. This is a particularly bloody and unsettled time in the Middle East. The pace of suicide attacks has picked up, and Israeli, Palestinian and United States leaders all appear to be changing strategies simultaneously.

Israel, which has just begun building a network of fences and walls around the West Bank, is now planning to retake some Palestinian areas there. The Bush administration is trying to settle on a new blueprint for the region, and the Palestinian Authority is grappling with calls for reform, both from its own people and Israel and the United States.

On our program today, deeper and deadlier in the Middle East.

There have been at least three new Israeli approaches to Palestinian terror in recent months: Operation Defensive Shield, the military incursions into the West Bank between the end of March and May. This week's start to the new barriers around the West Bank, and now the decision to retake Palestinian land, and still the suicide attacks continue.

Jerusalem has been struck twice in two days. 19 people were killed Tuesday, another 6 Wednesday.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour is in Jerusalem and begins our coverage -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jonathan, such is the pace and the horrifying nature of the suicide bombings attacks inside Israel that the Israeli government has been able to push the boundaries of its retaliation beyond what could have even been imagined about a year-and- a-half ago, when Ariel Sharon took over.

Indeed, an open declaration to reoccupy Palestinian land barely causes a ripple in the West these days. The latest suicide bombing that has led to this is today in northeaster Jerusalem at a place called the French Hill.

A Palestinian suicide bomber approached a bus stop. When border police approached him, he detonated the explosive. The police now put the number of people dead at 6, and those include children, some of them babies. There are about 37 people who have been wounded. Again, they include young children.

The mayor of Jerusalem was out there today, and he had this to say about Yasser Arafat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EHUD OLMERT, MAYOR OF JERUSALEM: The problem is the fact that Yasser Arafat is still around here, and he is the one that condones, that supports, that finances and that orchestrates all of this, and if he will not be removed, the terror will continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: For his part, Yasser Arafat today, this evening, a short while ago, not only condemned the suicide bombings, as he has done in the past, but he said it is time to now declare and call for a halt to suicide bombings inside Israel and a halt to attacks on Israeli civilians, because, he said, this is harming the Palestinian cause and giving the Israeli government, quote, "a pretext to invade Palestinian land."

Israel, meantime, did retaliate this evening. It was a short, sharp burst in Gaza. Israel send Apache helicopters into the Gaza area and launched missiles at targets in Gaza City and at the Jabalya and Halnunes (ph) camps.

We are told by sources inside the Gaza Strip that some of those targets that were hit tonight were so-called metalworking factories. In the past, Israel has claimed that those factories are used to build bombs and other weapons.

We are told also that about 13 to 14 Palestinians were slightly injured in tonight's retaliation.

Israel says that it continues to reserve the right to go in again to the West Bank, as it did last night, after that suicide bombing attack that killed 19 people in Jerusalem, and seize territory and hold on to it for as long as it takes for these Palestinian suicide bombings to stop.

And just one last note, today's suicide bombing attack was claimed by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, which is the militant organization affiliated with Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement -- Jonathan.

MANN: Christiane, even as that claim was made, or I suppose before hand, some very prominent Palestinian people were asking for an end to these attacks. Can you tell us about that?

AMANPOUR: Yes, well, much like what Yasser Arafat did today -- earlier today, Hanan Ashrawi, a former Palestinian legislator and also Sari Nusseibeh, who is right now the Palestinian official, the Palestinian commissioner for Jerusalem, if you like. They and about 50 other prominent Palestinians launched a full-page appeal in the Palestinian newspaper "al- Quds," in which they called for an end to suicide bombings and an end to the attacks against civilians inside Israel.

They said that this was harming their cause and providing a pretext for the government of Ariel Sharon to come in and take the drastic measures that he has done inside Palestinian-controlled territory. And Hanan Ashrawi also said that they, as people who are occupied, should not adopt tactics that cause the death of civilians, tactics that they obviously say that the Israelis do to their own people.

So that was what was going on, and it looks like Yasser Arafat followed suit earlier this evening.

MANN: Christiane Amanpour, thanks very much.

As she mentioned, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. It is an off-shoot of Yasser Arafat's Fatah.

But the Palestinian leader and his top aides said Wednesday said that the attack was not of their making.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: The Palestinian Authority and President Arafat condemn this attack, and to reiterate our position of not condoning any attacks on civilian Israelis or Palestinians.

But I cannot accept all the finger-pointing and accusation from the Israeli government. For months, Mr. Sharon's government has done nothing but to destroy the Palestinian Authority's capabilities, to make us irrelevant, to make us impotent, and to keep us and they remember us whenever such things happen so they can finger-point at us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: President George W. Bush has been preparing to unveil a new plan for the Middle East, but the attacks stand in the way.

White House spokesman Ari Fleischer says the president is still determined to move forward, though.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECT.: Violence has been going on in the Middle East for too long, and the president wants very much to work with all the parties, as he has been doing in the meetings that he's had with the Israelis as well as the Arab nations, on help finding a way out of this violence. The president condemns this latest attack. The president was informed of it just moments ago, and the president is determined, still, to find a way to help the parties to find peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: The last time the White House considered the situation in the Middle East to be spiraling out of control, President Bush sent in one of his heaviest hitters. Sect. of State Colin Powell had few substantive suggestions to make, though, and he returned to Washington empty-handed.

We're hearing that he might try again, and have something more substantial to promote, the president's widely anticipated plan.

Senior White House correspondent John King joins us now with more on that -- John.

JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jonathan, that plan and the Powell trip on hold, at least temporarily. As we speak, Mr. Bush meeting here in the White House with what is called the Principal's Committee -- Sect. of State Powell among those at the table, V.P. Cheney among those at the table. They are discussing just how to go forward with this new Middle East framework, not only what to say but when to say it.

The White House putting that policy on hold today, because it says this is not the moment to get the parties to focus on peace, when you have two back-to-back bombings and an Israeli military response. But the White House says the president will make that statement in the next several days.

Some believe these bombings have strengthened the hand of those in the administration who are very skeptical about this idea of recognizing a provisional Palestinian state. The public line here is that the president knows pretty much what he wants to say, it is just when to say it.

And we will hear about a Powell trip once they schedule the president's speech -- Jonathan.

MANN: John, you're touching on an important point, and I'd really like you to make it clear for us, if you can.

The impression we're getting from some people at the White House is that the president has the speech essentially in a drawer, and when the time is right he'll pull it out and read it. There are others who suggest that really the details of this, the very substance of the president's proposals, are still very much under debate at the White House, that they really don't know what to do now. Which is it?

KING: Well, I wish I could give you a very clear answer. It is a subject of confusion here, and I don't mean to laugh, but this is an administration that prides itself on secrecy, and this as sensitive as they come.

The reasons go beyond the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just moments ago President Bush wrapped up a meeting with the defense secretary and his top generals about military options for ousting the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Now, where's the connection? Arab leaders, of course, have said that if they are to even entertain the notion of a United States military option toward Iraq, they want to see progress first when it comes to the Israeli- Palestinian dispute.

The public line here at the White House is that the speech is pretty much drafted, that the president, until the very end, will tinker with the edges, but we do receive indications from those who have consulted with this administration in the past 48 hours that there is still a debate certainly over the timing, the sequencing, of what the president says must be done, in terms of reforms by the Palestinian Authority, before he were to entertain the notion of recognizing a provisional Palestinian state -- John.

MANN: The Palestinians want a promise and they want a date for the creation of that state. Are they likely to get either, do you think?

KING: They will get a promise from this president that he supports statehood, even if the provisional idea falls out of the plan, and we don't believe it will completely. But they will get a promise from this president that his goal is an independent permanent Palestinian state.

Whether they will get a timetable is another issue being hotly debated. Some in the administration, and certainly the Arab diplomats, including the Saudis and the Egyptians, who have met with President Bush, want a timetable of no more than three years.

They want President Bush to say you will go forward from here, and within three years you must have a permanent state, you must resolve Jerusalem, you must resolve the refugee issue. Some in this administration, including he secretary of state we are told, believe that is necessary to focus the parties and give them urgency. Others are worried, though, that this president might just be reelected president when that three-year deadline claim, and if they failed to meet it, it would be a failure for this president. So that debate continues as well.

MANN: John King at the White House, thanks very much.

We take a break, and then we'll talk to Israeli and Palestinian officials about the president's plan, about Israel's new strategy, and about the ongoing attacks.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From now on, there is a change in our policy. From now on, anytime that there will be an act of terror against the citizens of Israel, against the state of Israel, Israel will respond by capturing a part of the Palestinian-held territory. We will keep these territories until terror will be stopped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANN: Welcome back.

In recent weeks, Israeli forces have moved at will into areas that had been set aside for Palestinian control, so it's not entirely clear how much is likely to change now that they say they will go in and stay, or how the change would add to Israel's security.

Joining us to talk about the new policy and the attacks is Dore Gold, senior adviser to P.M. Sharon.

Thanks so much for being with us.

Let me ask you what you can tell us about the policy. The broad lines of it seem clear, but in practice, are we likely to see the slow evaporation of the Palestinian Authority areas?

DORE GOLD, SR. SHARON ADVISER: Well, first of all let me explain to you what would be the ideal situation.

In 1993, when we implemented the Oslo agreements, we withdrew our military government. The Palestinians were no longer under military occupation, but under their own administration.

Unfortunately, they failed to fight the terrorist cells that grew in the area under their jurisdiction. We have tried a variety of ways -- we've gone through at least 11 cease fire arrangements with them, and yet they are not stopping these terrorist cells. They continue attacking us, and we've had the last two attacks in Jerusalem.

Until there is a change of behavior on the other side, until they can take responsibility for areas under their jurisdiction, we have no choice but to move into certain areas that will improve our ability to prevent infiltrations into Israel.

MANN: Is Jenin one of those area? Can you name the places that are high on the list?

GOLD: Well, we know from documents that we captured during our last military operation that Jenin is regarded by the Palestinians as the factory of the suicide bombers, that there are large numbers of suicide bombers there, as there are in other Palestinian cities.

But in particular, Jenin is a very problematic Palestinian city.

MANN: So, the troops there are likely to stay. Are there other places?

GOLD: Well, you know, again, I don't want to go into operational details of what the Israeli armed forces are going to decide to do.

We go in as we need to go in, when we have specific warning about attacks on our civilians.

Again, the best scenario would be that the Palestinian Authority would behave responsibly, like the Jordanian government. Jordan stops attempts to infiltrate Israel from Syria or from Iraq.

It would be wonderful if the Palestinian Authority would behave like the Egyptian government, which no longer allows Sinai to be used as a base of operations against Israel.

Unfortunately, they have totally failed, and Israeli civilians are dying on a daily basis. This must come to an end, and if it's necessary to take certain strips of land that will make infiltrations more difficult, we will do so.

MANN: How are Palestinians like to react? Obviously, you're expecting anger and a certain kind of violence.

GOLD: Well, you know, there are Palestinians who will express in television debates that they're angry, that this is an attempt to reoccupy territory, but I think many Palestinians also understand that Yasser Arafat has blown the chance of a century.

He has ruined the Palestinian movement. He has exploited terrorism in a way that is unacceptable to the international community, especially after the September 11th attacks on the United States. And there are growing voices among the Palestinians who are talking about reform, who are talking about more democracy, accountability and transparency.

MANN: Yasser Arafat doesn't personally suffer, though, if Israeli troops move into Jenin. There was talk for a time in the Israeli press and among Israeli officials, at the hypothetical level, anyway, of actually personally expelling him from the region. The idea being that, well, if things keep getting worse, he will personally be targeted and thrown out.

Is that on the table in a serious way?

GOLD: Well, that's something which the government and the security establishment will have to consider.

What is true is that the organization that perpetrated the last bombing on French Hill in Jerusalem is the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades. And we have reams of documents that we've captured from Arafat's headquarters that associate the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades with Yasser Arafat personally.

We know that he authorized payment to its military operatives, $350 per operative. We have his signature in Arabic authorizing those payments. We know that the head of his financial arm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was turned to by the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades to pay for bombing attacks.

We have those documents and we've shared them with intelligence agencies among Western countries.

So we do have a very serious problem with Arafat. He's not only not stopping the terrorism, he's promoting it.

MANN: To be fair, Palestinians have doubted the either authenticity or the importance of those documents. We'll be hearing from someone, but more on that in a moment.

GOLD: That's a quick answer.

MANN: Let me ask you very quickly about a matter of great substance, and that is the president's plans. You know some details, I'm sure, from the press and from your own contacts. Is Israel welcoming President Bush's idea for a provisional Palestinian state, or is this a bad idea?

GOLD: Well, let me just say one thing, because you mentioned the authenticity of the documents. Israeli military intelligence has a worldwide reputation. We share information with the CIA, MI5, MI6 in Great Britain. We don't doctor documents to win political points on CNN or any network.

When we present documents and we say they're authentic, our reputation in the international community is at stake. These are real documents. I don't really care what Palestinian spokesmen conveniently say in a five minute interview.

With reference to the president's proposal, we know that President Bush has been a great leader of the free world, that he supports a coherent policy, fighting terrorism. That he supports a policy based on moral clarity.

The worst thing we could have happen now in the next week ahead is if the Palestinians understand that their violence, their option for violence has been rewarded, that these bombings in Jerusalem have produced tangible results in their favor.

If that's what they understand, then the violence will get much worse.

MANN: Dore Gold, adviser to Israeli P.M. Ariel Sharon, thank you so much for talking with us.

GOLD: It's my pleasure.

MANN: A break and then a look at events from the Palestinian side.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANN (voice-over): As we've heard, the Palestinian leadership condemned Wednesday's attack, but Palestinian Cabinet Sect. Ahmed Abdul Rahman said Israel's occupation of Palestinian land is the underlying cause of the violence.

"We all denounce any operation against civilians, if they are Palestinians or Israelis," he said. "But the Israeli government should ask itself about what they are doing today, and their decision to reoccupy our cities."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(on camera): Welcome back.

It might be fair to say that Palestinian officials offer condolences, but no apologies. And they say that beyond words, there's little they can do because of Israeli attacks on their own police and their prisons.

So Israel says it has to act on its own.

Joining us now to talk about that is Diana Buttu, a PLO legal adviser.

Thanks so much for being with us.

I have to let the audience know that you didn't hear what Dore Gold had to say a moment ago, so I'm not going to ask you about that, but I do want to ask you about the condemnation by Yasser Arafat of the attack in Jerusalem.

He condemns the attack. Others within the Palestinian hierarchy condemn the attack. And yet it's common knowledge that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades was created by an organization that was in turn created by Fatah, Yasser Arafat's own faction within the PLO.

I don't get it. How can these attacks both be condemned and carried out by the same group of people?

DIANA BUTTU, PLO LEGAL ADVISER: Well, we're talking about a splinter group here. Although they may be part of the same party, they are in fact a radical splinter group that is not directly associated with President Arafat, just in the same way that in the United States you have radical Republicans who have, in the past, carried out attacks against abortion clinics because they don't believe in abortion. And yet at the same time declare themselves to be Republicans.

MANN: I'm going to jump in. I think the comparison falls down, though, because the organizations that violent anti-abortionists are part of are not created by the Republican party. The understanding that I have is that Fatah created the Tanzim and the Tanzim created the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. These are not renegade people who just happen to share some views, this is an organization that owes its parentage to Fatah.

BUTTU: Actually, it's not quite that simple. What it is is it's a splinter group that split off from Fatah and is not directly associated with the Fatah movement.

So, again, the analogy to the abortion clinics is one that is quite apt.

MANN: Let me ask you about beyond the condemnation, though. If this is indeed a splinter group, why is it that we hear condemnations, but we don't hear about a more concerted effort against the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades? Why is there no broad campaign to convince Palestinians, for example, that these kinds of attacks are treacherous or counterproductive? There was a statement, an appeal in the Palestinian press, signed by a group of Palestinian intellectuals, but it stands out because it seems virtually unique.

BUTTU: Well, the reason that we're in this situation I the first place is because we have to recognize that there is a link between Israel's lack of security and the Palestinian's lack of freedom. And the Palestinians in the past have said, what is it exactly that we are to do now, given that we have been reoccupied, that our security forces have been completely destroyed, and that the very security forces that are supposed to be carrying out security for Israel have been destroyed by Israel.

It seems counter-intuitive at that point. I understand how counterproductive these suicide attacks are. I don't support them. I oppose them vehemently. And I am just as frustrated as everyone else is. But the question then becomes not simply what is happening, but how do we stop what's happening. And the only way we can stop it is to understand that this is not occurring in a political vacuum, it is occurring in a political conflict.

MANN: And the conflict is going to change. It is changing, because Israeli troops are going to be taking up positions in places like Jenin, only this time, we're told, they're not about to leave in a hurry. How much is that going to effect things?

BUTTU: Well, see, that's again, the same type of reverse logic that has been used in the past. What has gotten us in this situation in the first place is that Israel has refused to withdraw from the territories for the past 35 years.

It's therefore counter-logical for Israel to then go into the territories and expect there to be security. What Israel has to recognize is the same thing that the international community has told it now for the past 35 years. Withdraw and allow the Palestinians to live in the same peace, freedom and security that it demands for its own citizens.

MANN: The Israelis say, I don't have to tell you, that the withdrawal -- that the future has to be negotiated, and that the negotiations have to be carried on in calm and not under the threat of violence.

Is there any way that this violence will end to make that possible?

BUTTU: Well, saying that this has to be conducted in calm is the equivalent of the Palestinians saying to the Israelis, we will not negotiate until we are free.

Now, for the Israelis, that may be a nonstarter. And for the Palestinians, that's a nonstarter.

The only reason that you negotiate is because you want to bring peace, but if you continue to insist on conditions before negotiating, then it comes as no surprise that there is no peace.

MANN: What do you think President Bush is going to be able to do about this? Are you eager to see the speech? Are you sorry it's been delayed? Do you think it's going to change anything?

BUTTU: Well, I think that it will change things if President Bush steps back and recognizes why we are in this situation, and begins to simply apply the law, which means to demand from Israel its compete withdrawal from all of the territories that it has occupied since 1967. And I'm hoping that President Bush will come out and say that very clearly.

MANN: Diana Buttu, legal adviser to the PLO, thank you so much for talking with us.

BUTTU: Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you.

MANN: Just a final word before we go about a few words from CNN's founder, Ted Turner.

Turner, who is vice-chairman of our parent company, AOL, offended a great many Israelis in an interview with the British newspaper "The Guardian."

In remarks made in April but published this week, he compared Israeli soldiers to Palestinian suicide bombers.

"The Palestinians," he said, "are fighting with human suicide bombers. That's all they have. The Israelis, they've got one of the most powerful military machines in the world. The Palestinians have nothing, so who are the terrorists? I would make a case that both sides are involved in terrorism."

Now, though, Turner is offering a slightly different assessment. These are his words as well:

"I believe the Israeli government has used excessive force to defend itself, but that is not the same as intentionally targeting and killing civilians with suicide bombers."

Ted Turner no longer runs CNN, but for its part, CNN is officially reminding its viewers that Ted Turner's views are his own, and they do not in any way reflect the views of CNN.

That's all for INSIGHT for this day. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.

END

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