Return to Transcripts main page

Joy Behar Page

Casey Spotted in Ohio?; Polygamy Sex Assault Trial; Interview With Allison Janney

Aired August 03, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Casey Anthony is allegedly spotted in Ohio hiding in plain sight, this as she`s expected in Orlando to serve probation for check fraud. Jose Baez filed a motion challenging the order, so will Casey dodge another punishment?

Then jurors in the Warren Jeffs trial hear disturbing audio of Jeffs coaching his wives during a group sex session with a minor. But with Jeffs representing himself, Joy wants to know could the case be appealed due to an incompetent defense?

That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: Has Casey Anthony been spotted? TMZ today posted photos and video of a woman they believe is Casey Anthony walking down a street in Ohio. The woman is shown wearing a baseball cap, glasses, and popping into a store to do some shopping.

Meanwhile, the actual Casey was supposed to report back to an Orlando probation office tomorrow morning, but reports tonight say a judge ruled last minute that she did not have to show up.

Here now with the latest details is Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV. Jean, what do you know about these pictures -- these new photos?

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, I`ve studied them. I`ve looked at them. I`ve studied them. And it sure looks like her. It`s someone with her body shape. I saw her in person so much in that courtroom. You see her walking.

The only thing I have -- she`s right-handed, and you see in these pictures she`s holding everything in her left hand from a Slurpee cup to a Blackberry, not in her right-hand. To me, her lips look a little different. But the body shape is the same. But there`s still a question because her attorneys have not said yes or no whether it is her.

BEHAR: Well, I saw them. I`m not sure if it`s Casey. The chin looks similar and the walk is very much like her walk that I remember. So I don`t know. Is it possible that this whole photo shoot is staged?

CASAREZ: Well, it could be. It definitely could be. Staged in a number of ways; I mean, if it`s Casey, it could have been staged because these photos obviously were sold, right? And that means money going to somebody. Alternatively, how many people out there would love to play a joke saying that they are Casey, especially if they look like her, and put on an Ohio state baseball cap and glasses and make really fun of this country and the people in the country saying, ha, ha, that`s Casey, but it`s not.

BEHAR: Yes. But they`re playing with fire because the girl is not exactly Miss Popularity.

CASAREZ: No.

BEHAR: Around the country, a lot of people are angry and want to get her. She`s not really safe to be walking around I don`t think.

CASAREZ: No and so we have a defense motion asking for a judge to vacate an order that she has to go back to Orlando to report for probation. And Joy, one of the exhibits that the defense used was a picture that somebody put out with a bullet through Casey Anthony`s head saying this could happen to you.

BEHAR: And if she does get put on probation, what does that mean? Does she have monthly check-ins? She has to get a job -- what else -- random drug tests?

CASAREZ: Exactly. No excessive alcohol. She can`t be around a firearm. There are ways you can go about it so you can live out of state and a probation officer there is who you would report to, but it would be for the Orange County jurisdiction. But that`s a question -- sometimes that takes time to do. You just don`t automatically start serving your probation in another state.

But the other question is, should she be on probation at all because she got a letter, and we have it, from the Department of Corrections in January of this year saying, you have completed your probation, Casey Anthony. Thank you, and have a good life.

BEHAR: How can you complete probation when you`re in jail?

CASAREZ: Well, it can be done, I understand. But truly on this, it was the wording of the order. Because remember, this was the check fraud case. And she was sentenced to time served, and the order said and following that, a year of probation.

Well, if you take it literally, following that would have been January of last year to January of this year.

BEHAR: Ok. All right. Thanks, Jean, very much.

CASAREZ: You`re welcome.

BEHAR: Ok.

Now I want to bring in Mark Nejame, criminal attorney and former attorney for Cindy and George Anthony; and Judge Larry Seidlin, former state court judge who presided over the Anna Nicole Smith trial. Mark, you saw the photos on TMZ. Is it Casey?

MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CINDY AND GEORGE ANTHONY: There`s no way to know. You see some semblance of -- you see something there that looks like her, and then you look at other angles and it doesn`t.

I think the important point is did she get paid for this? If she did, there`s going to be a price to pay for somebody. There`s an active boycott going on which I strongly support. I`m getting thousands of Twitters, statement from people. And whoever`s going to pay Casey Anthony, allow money to go into her pocket, is going to have a price to pay.

I don`t think that -- I know TMZ did not pay her. But if there was a backdoor way through a photographer or paparazzi to get money to her, that person`s going to pay.

BEHAR: Uh-huh. Well, there`s a battle over whether Casey has to go back to Orlando to serve probation. So Judge Seidlin, her attorney, Jose Baez, says she shouldn`t have to go back because she served probation while she was locked up. Is that right?

JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, PRESIDED OVER ANNA NICOLE SMITH CASE: Yes, I reviewed the documents, the transcript. Judge Strickland made his announcement in court, and it`s unclear the minutes that were written down by the clerk. And it seemed to be that probation will be served while you`re in the jail because she was awaiting trial. And I have never seen a case where you`re awaiting trial and probation doesn`t continue.

BEHAR: Uh-huh.

SEIDLIN: Therefore, I believe she`s served her probation. And the Department of Corrections believes that. And the prosecutor believes that. They`ve announced that they believe that she served a probation. So, the only one who would say differently is the judge, Judge Perry.

BEHAR: All right. Well, Baez was on the "Today Show" this morning. So let`s watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: It`s a bad situation. This thing is over and done. And for some reason it -- things seem to keep coming up again for no apparent reason, for absolutely no apparent reason other than let`s just keep this thing going. Let`s just keep this madness going and engage in the circus-like atmosphere that is called the Casey Anthony case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Mark, Baez says he`s worried about Casey`s safety and he made the argument that her security could cost taxpayers money if she was forced to come back to Orlando. Does he have a point?

SEIDLIN: He has a point --

NEJAME: No. Not in that regard. The reality of it is that -- are there some people out there who would do harm to her? I think absolutely. We`ve already seen a misidentification turn into a road rage incident where somebody thought they saw her.

The fact of the matter is, yes, it could happen. The reality of it though is she`s not going to be given special protection. If there`s a danger and if anybody is stupid enough and illegal enough to do something or attempt to do something, they`ll get arrested as they rightfully should be. She should be left alone physically but she should not be given preferential treatment different from anybody else who`s in her situation. So there`s not going to be a special security force. There`s not going to be taxpayer money associated with this.

She`s going to be there to serve her probation like anybody else should and would.

BEHAR: But Judge Seidlin, a lot of people are saying the judge who ordered Casey back to Orlando might have it in for her. Do you think he was biased against her, this guy`s name is Stan Strickland, the judge.

SEIDLIN: Yes. Judge Strickland already has been removed from the case. He was supposed to try this murder case. He was removed. And it was awkward for him now to say this is what I intended to do, that I intended her to serve probation after the jail time. I don`t know how --

NEJAME: Larry, Larry --

SEIDLIN: Let me just finish up. Let me just finish up. I believe that he`s just removed himself again from the case. And he turned it back over to Judge Perry, which is the right thing to do. And judge -- they`re going to have a hearing Friday, and we`ll see how it goes.

I believe it`s double jeopardy. I believe she served her time. But I don`t know what Judge Perry`s going to do because he`s, what I would say, prosecution-oriented.

BEHAR: Mark?

SEIDLIN: And you saw it during the trial.

NEJAME: That`s only part of the story. The reality of it is if you look at the transcript and you look at the clerk`s minutes, there was a mistake made without question. If you read what in fact Judge Strickland said at the time of sentencing, he said that this should be served after the fact. It did not make it to the clerk minutes.

So you have an oral pronouncement, contemporaneous with a written order. And the fact of the matter is all he was doing was clarifying what he intended. Now, he also was not recused from the bad check case, the fraud case. He recused himself from the homicide -- hold on, hold on.

SEIDLIN: But you need certainty in the law --

(CROSSTALK)

SEIDLIN: You need certainty in the law.

NEJAME: All he`s doing is clarifying his order. He`s not making a new order. All he`s doing is clarifying what was previously there.

Now with that said, it`s an unusual situation. And it needs to have a hearing. But to anybody to say automatically she should be serving probation or she`s already off, we need to get into it. Did probation go and visit her -- did probation go and visit her regularly when she was in jail? She did in fact -- was there compliance from everybody?

These are questions that are appropriate for a hearing. But just to jump and say double jeopardy without a full and fair hearing, no. Because if, in fact, the judge said it`s to be served afterwards and there was a clerk minute, a mistake -- it happens all the time. If somebody`s released from jail early, prematurely, and there`s a mistake made, they don`t get a free pass. As soon as that`s discovered, they go straight back to jail. You know that Judge.

BEHAR: All right. Judge Seidlin, you have the last word, but I`ve got to go in a second. Go ahead.

SEIDLIN: We need certainty in the law. We need finality in the law. This is what she was told and probation was visiting her. They were checking on her. This is double jeopardy. It`s not fair.

BEHAR: All right.

SEIDLIN: Even though the public doesn`t like her, we still have to go by the rule of law.

BEHAR: Ok.

NEJAME: We agree with that.

BEHAR: Ok thanks very much, guys. We`ll be back in just a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, shocking new developments in the Warren Jeffs underage polygamy trial. We`ll have all the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: The prosecution in the Warren Jeffs trial rested their case today, but not before they played another audio recording. This one, prosecutors say, is of Jeffs` sexual assault against a child bride, a 12- year-old child.

Here now to discuss the tape and the latest with this trial is Michael Watkiss, investigative reporter for Phoenix affiliate KTVK, who`s at the trial; along with Flora Jessop, a former victim of an FLDS polygamist community and the author of "Church of Lies".

Ok, Mike, prosecutors played an audiotape of what they say is Jeffs having sex with a 12-year-old. Obviously without getting too graphic, can you describe to me what was on the tape?

MICHAEL WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER KTVK: Yes. A 21-minute tape and it really was the terrible tale of the tape here in Texas today; Mr. Jeffs sexually assaulting allegedly this 12-year-old girl inside his massive white temple about 45 miles from our location.

Mr. Jeffs refers to the girl a couple of times by name. Also refers to her as a heavenly comfort wife. He says, "You shall learn the power and spirit of Christ", lots of religious talk. A couple of times you can hear the girl`s voice very timid, very meek, answering Mr. Jeffs when he says, "Are you ok," she says, "Yes." He then ends this by saying "We offer this as a prayer up to Jesus Christ. Amen."

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Of course.

WATKISS: And at that point you hear the little girl saying "Amen."

Most of the tape honestly you`re hearing Mr. Jeffs` heavy breathing, labored breathing. What is clearly the sex act taking place, it was a stunning moment; the most powerful punch certainly for the jurors in this very dramatic trial.

BEHAR: Ok. Flora did -- you heard it also -- did it appear on the recording that there were other wives or other sister wives in the room?

FLORA JESSOP, FORMER VICTIM OF FLDS POLYGAMIST SECT: Correct. There were -- there were two other ladies present while this act occurred.

BEHAR: And what were they doing?

JESSOP: Well, that was -- it`s unclear what they were doing from the tape -- from the tape that we listened to. But they were -- if you take in context the tape today with the tape yesterday, what the training was yesterday with this quorum of wives was all participation with the sex act.

And so --

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: So their -- their presence -- their presence indicates tacit approval, would you say? And going along with this?

JESSOP: Not -- not only approval but participation.

BEHAR: Participation --

JESSOP: He explained in his training tape yesterday with his quorum of 12 wives that active participation must be occurring for them to be a heavenly spouse.

BEHAR: And what do you mean by participation? Are they part of the sex act?

JESSOP: The tape yesterday that -- that was played was very much more graphic than the tape today in the nature of his training on it. And there was a quorum of 12 wives on that -- on the tape yesterday. And he was training them all in having sexual relations not only with him but with -- with them together.

And then when he was done with that, telling them that now -- now that I have got you trained in this manner, you must go teach your children this. And that`s the most disturbing part for me.

BEHAR: Because it just continues. It just goes on and on.

JESSOP: The cycle goes on and on.

BEHAR: Yes.

JESSOP: And now it`s not -- it`s now we`ve got mothers perpetrating on their children because they were taught that God mandates this. And you know, it just -- it scares me, the whole cycle of this just terrifies me.

BEHAR: Oh it`s horrendous.

I mean, Mike, how did the jury seem to react to -- while hearing the recording?

WATKISS: They were transfixed. They were given a transcription of it. So they were going along -- and it was difficult to hear. A lot of ambient noise and certainly the girl`s voice very muffled. But they were transfixed listening. You can -- you can hear a pin drop other than the recording in the room. The audience was listening very intently.

This really was the coup de grace here. Prosecutors had presented a very powerful case: DNA evidence, that training tape of yesterday and this, you know, the alleged second act in that big white temple that we`ve all now come to know out near the little town of El Dorado, a sex act with Mr. Jeffs and two of his plural wives with this 12-year-old.

So no doubt it had -- I think it had a significant impact on this jury. But I think it`s already been very much swayed.

BEHAR: Ok. And what was the rapist doing while this recording was being played?

WATKISS: What Jeffs was doing?

BEHAR: Yes.

WATKISS: Not moving a muscle. Just standing and as he has -- he has throughout this trial. When he is not lecturing or sermonizing, he basically is hunched over. He`s a big, tall, skinny man, sort of a dramatic-looking character, almost sort of Dickensonian. And he just hunched over, didn`t move a muscle.

BEHAR: You know, it`s -- it`s one good thing, though, Flora. With these recordings, the country is now seeing what a monster he is and what`s going on behind closed doors within this community.

So I feel that this could be the breaking point for this -- for this horrendous behavior. Do you agree?

JESSOP: Well, I hope so. But -- but you know what, you have to keep in mind, Joy, this is only one man that`s getting -- that`s going to go spend his life behind bars.

There are hundreds of thousands -- there`s thousands of these guys still in there practicing these same types of things. And the mothers are still handing their children over. This is not going away tonight or tomorrow. This must be an ongoing effort to protect these kids, or nothing will change.

BEHAR: Well, last time I spoke to you, Flora, there was some indication -- I believe it was you I spoke to, that the FBI was getting involved in this. Is that -- is that true?

JESSOP: You know, the FBI, they come and they go, and nothing has ever happened. The attorney general`s office in every state except Texas has investigated, and nothing ever happens. Is something going to finally happen? I`m not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

BEHAR: Ok. We`re going --

JESSOP: I hope, but I won`t hold my breath.

BEHAR: Ok. Hang in. We`ll have more on this in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back, and we`re talking about the Warren Jeffs trial.

Mike, you were doing great work on this trial. And Flora, you do great work to try to expose the pathology of this particular sect.

And you said something rather disturbing. That this is going on and on, and there are thousands more -- I mean isn`t there some way to break this cycle with publicity as we`re trying to do or getting the authorities in on this, Mike? I mean -- our hands are tied in this? These poor girls, this will continue? I can`t accept that.

WATKISS: Joy, I sort of have become the media contrarian because I`ve been telling these stories for 30 years. Flora has devoted her entire adult life. There`s not an ounce of information that has been presented in this court, not a nuance that`s new. We`ve been -- there`s a wealth of information, and the media drops into this story periodically, pat themselves on the back, and say, oh, we`ve discovered all of this stuff, sort of makes themselves feel good, and then moves on. And there has been no consistent effort.

But the wealth of history is there. And if people would have focused on this 20 years ago, this would not have now metastasized all over the country. We caused some problems for Mr. Jeffs in Utah and Arizona, so he went out and bought a compound in South Dakota, in Colorado, in Texas, they`re in Canada. It`s because the rest of the world really hasn`t paid attention.

It`s not because as they say in the TV show the truth -- the truth is out there, and it`s been told over and over again. And I think the frustration for my part and I believe for Flora`s is that, you know, people drop in and then they lose attention. And these guys have the power of faith. They think what they`re doing is God-ordained, and they go right back to doing what they`re doing.

Let`s hope we finally reach critical mass. The entire country will recognize that children are in jeopardy. And if -- when the satellite trucks move away and we forget about this, another generation of little girls and boys are going to be lost in the FLDS society.

BEHAR: Would it help to prosecute the women? You know, I mean maybe that`s the next target; these people who are part and parcel of this abuse.

JESSOP: Yes. Absolutely. You`ve got to prosecute, prosecute, prosecute in order to stop the cycle. Make these women understand there is penalty for selling your children out to these predators. That`s the only thing that`s going to stop this. If they know they`re going to go to jail, they`ll think twice before walking them down the aisle.

BEHAR: You know, Mike, the prosecution rested its case today. Now it`s the rapist`s turn. Has he called witnesses yet?

WATKISS: Now it has become theater of the absurd. When the state rested, Mr. Jeffs pleaded with the judge for more time. He said, Mr. Jeffs, you`ve had this case in front of you for years. It was your decision to represent yourself. He`s now understanding the perils of representing himself. Literally, they brought --

BEHAR: And -- go ahead. I`m sorry. I`m so wrapped up in this. Can`t they use this tape where you hear that these women are also in on it? Can`t they use this tape to bring these women to trial also? To prosecute the women?

WATKISS: Well, they`re not doing it thus far. Perhaps they can down the road, perhaps with public pressure. But as Flora said, I`m not going to hold my breath either.

Bottom line is Mr. Jeffs gave a rambling sermon. Now the jurors are sort of bewildered because all he`s doing is talking about Mormon history. Hasn`t once addressed the charges against him.

BEHAR: Do you think he`ll be found guilty? He will be right? He`s got to be. They have DNA evidence.

JESSOP: Absolutely. I don`t think they can do anything but find him guilty after listening to those horrible, horrible tapes.

BEHAR: Horrible. Ok. Thanks again. We`ll be back in a minute. Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: As we just learned before the break, shocking audiotapes played in court reveal that Warren Jeffs not only allegedly coached a 14- year-old child bride on how to please him sexually but also sexually assaulted another 12-year-old so-called wife as others watched. This man is a monster, but what can be said about the FLDS women who allowed it to happen? With me to discuss this and other psychological hot topics in the news are Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist. And Brian Russell, a forensic psychologist and an attorney. Hello, guys.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Hello.

BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Hello.

BEHAR: I tell you, this story makes me crazy. How can these FLDS women allow their underage daughters to marry this creep and be sexually assaulted? Bethany, can you help me out here?

MARSHALL: Well, this is so atrocious, we have to ask why would a guru rape a child in front of the female caregivers? Because he wants to turn them on, and also he`s trying to assert his power over them. Why wouldn`t they rush to protect the little girls? Because they think he`s God. This is a tenet of their faith, of their religion. And why do they think he`s God? Because they have allowed themselves to be drawn into a delusion like a delusional disorder. Remember Randy Quaid and his wife who thought the star whackers were after them?

BEHAR: Yes.

MARSHALL: When you have a very powerful person with a strong belief and you inject that into a weaker person, you can cause them to go into the same delusional state that you`re in.

BEHAR: I see. And Brian, they`ve been brainwashed to believe they`ll get to heaven if they`re obedient wives, you know. Or if they supply their daughters as wives. So Bethany says that they`re all part of this grand delusion. Can you actually blame the wives if that`s the case?

RUSSELL: Yes. First, Joy, let me just say that not understanding this is actually a sign of mental health. If you understood this perfectly, I`d want to see you in my office.

BEHAR: Thank you.

RUSSELL: But chalking this up to -- chalking this up to mental illness or brainwashing has given these women a pass that they don`t deserve, Joy.

BEHAR: I agree with that. Yes.

RUSSELL: It`s giving them a pass they don`t deserve. Because if they want to stick around, the mothers do, and they want to have menage a trois or quatre or cinque or whatever with Jeffs and his cronies, that`s fine. But if they subject their children to it, they are active accomplices in child abuse and they should be punished as such. They have the intellect, they have the intellect to appreciate the wrongfulness of this, as evidenced by the fact that some of them have gotten themselves and their kids out of it.

Now why do some of them stay? It`s because it`s an extreme example of what can happen when somebody grows up immersed in a cultural grip that they can`t imagine not being in.

BEHAR: Right.

RUSSELL: They start to prioritize membership in the group to such a degree that they will rationalize that whatever`s going on in the group is better than whatever`s going on outside the group. And Jeffs reinforces it daily.

BEHAR: Maybe they`re scared also. But you know, Bethany, can religious beliefs really override the motherly instinct to protect your child?

MARSHALL: Yes, they can -- hey, religious beliefs can override everything. Why else does a suicide bomber walk into a marketplace and blow himself up when there are children and family members all around? Because when you take over a person`s beliefs, you take over every other part of their life.

But also, when you rearrange everything about their lives, you cut them off from outside influence, you make them live in barracks, they don`t have their own separate thoughts and resources, then it is so dissonant for them to believe that they`re living this horrible life and that is not an OK thing, so they bring their beliefs in line with the lifestyle in which they have been raised. And that is what we call brainwashing.

BEHAR: Right. They`re also convinced --

RUSSELL: There`s a choice in that, though.

BEHAR: They`re also convinced, Bethany, that those outfits are attractive.

MARSHALL: Say that again? They`re what?

BEHAR: I said they`re convinced those outfits are attractive. They`re just crazy, the whole bunch of them, 10,000 people in this country. And it exists in this -- the United States. It`s unbelievable. This guy has gotten away with this and these women are part and parcel to these events, it`s outrageous. I can`t believe it.

MARSHALL: But you know what I love, Joy? I love when he went into court and he read the letter from God to the judge.

BEHAR: Uh-huh, yes.

MARSHALL: Because this is the first woman that he is not going to be able to intimidate.

BEHAR: I know.

MARSHALL: And I wonder what the other women think when they see this going on and they realize that finally there`s a woman there somewhere who doesn`t give in to his delusional beliefs.

BEHAR: Yes. They must think they`re on another planet. Let`s do another story, OK? There`s more disturbing new video released today of this other -- another bargain -- Nancy Garrido, the wife of Phillip Garrido and the co-conspirator in the Jaycee Dugard kidnapping. Now this footage shows how she would lure young girls into a van and record them posing for her husband, her husband, to view later. Another crazy wife who goes along with the crazy husband. Is this case, Bethany, any different from the brainwashing of the previous women we just talked about?

MARSHALL: Yes. This is completely different. Careful assessment of these types of women tells us that this woman, Nancy Garrido, was obsessed with her husband. And that`s what we see in these kinds of cases. The relationship with the man is more important than the relationship with the child. The child is simply a pawn to keep the man happy. So what was she doing when she was going out and videotaping all those little kids in the back of a van? And according to one report, she videotaped him playing the guitar at a park with children in the background as a ruse so that she could get little kids on tape. What was she doing? She was bringing a tasty treat back to the master. She was giving a gift to the gods. And also, don`t tell me that she didn`t hate these little children for being interlopers in the marital relationship, and when they were raped, sodomized, and mistreated, she felt that they got their just desserts.

BEHAR: Oh, boy. And you know, Brian, if Nancy Garrido, this woman, was trying to hold on to her husband, you know, it`s odd. Why would she willingly provide him with sexual rivals? In her mind, I`m talking about.

RUSSELL: Well, you know, maybe so, maybe not. She could be a psychopath in her own right who was enjoying some or all of this herself. She didn`t just aid and abet him. She had chances to end this, she had chances to let those kids go when he was elsewhere, and she didn`t take them.

MARSHALL: Brian, if she was a psychopath, he would have been bringing little boys to her. She was bringing the children to him.

RUSSELL: Not necessarily -- people can have all kinds of different sexual proclivities. You know, she -- look at this guy. Do we have a picture? Are we showing his picture? This guy -- I don`t buy that he had some Svengali-like control over this woman. This guy is a crazed-looking troll of a man who doesn`t look like he could have charmed anybody out of a paper bag.

BEHAR: Excuse me, excuse me. She`s no beauty either, have you seen her face?

RUSSELL: No, she`s not at all -- she`s not at all. But I don`t buy - -

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: That is one scary couple.

RUSSELL: I don`t buy that there`s anything this woman did that she`s not 100 percent responsible for herself.

BEHAR: OK.

MARSHALL: Of course she`s culpable. But when you said Svengali, you know they were leading -- he was leading religious services in their basement. He had a church just composed of Nancy, Jaycee, and the two little girls. So in his own mind he was a Svengali.

RUSSELL: Well, when you`re an adult, you have a choice about what you`re going to believe and what you`re not going to believe. And the law requires that you think -- you have to think -- the law requires that everybody who has a functioning adult mind think about what`s right and wrong. Otherwise, people like Michael Vick could say, well, I had to abuse dogs because I was taught that growing up. Once you`re an adult, you have to apply your intellect. And if you don`t, then you`re criminally responsible.

MARSHALL: Right, Brian, speaking of applying intellect, explanation is not the same as excuse. And when we find explanation for why--

RUSSELL: That`s correct.

MARSHALL: -- she did what she did, we are definitely not excusing her. We`re trying to understand it so that more children do not have crimes perpetrated against them.

BEHAR: Right, but let me tell you something, this woman later told Jaycee Dugard from jail that she still loved Phillip, even though what they did was wrong. So she knew what they did was wrong.

MARSHALL: She definitely knew right from wrong.

RUSSELL: Of course she did.

BEHAR: She did. So she is culpable, even if she was sexually abused as a child herself, she still knew that it was wrong. I don`t know if she was--

RUSSELL: Absolutely.

BEHAR: OK, there`s one more story I wanted to go over. This Oregon mom -- I saw this this week, and it`s just awful, too. She lost the custody battle to keep her kids away from the new wife of her ex-husband. The woman was found not guilty of killing her own two children, the ex- wife, the -- I mean the ex-husband`s wife. She was found not guilty of killing her own children by reason of temporary insanity. And now this woman`s children are visiting and staying over under the roof of this woman who killed her previous two children.

Is it -- this woman, Christine Cushing her name is, if she was capable of murder once even by temporary insanity, isn`t she capable of doing it again, Bethany?

MARSHALL: Not only is she capable of doing it again, but we have to ask ourselves why. Didn`t she murder a 2- and 4-year-old little girl? Did she do it to get back at her husband? Did she do it because she wanted an idealized life? Did she do it because she resented them? And what does that mean about the fact that she is getting her husband to bring his two little boys back into that household? Does she want control over these children? Is he trying to rehabilitate some fantasy that he has a great family life even though he`s married to a homicidal woman, or are these children being used as pawns in some elaborate way by both of them to deny her homicidal past?

BEHAR: You know, and this other thing that really bothers me is that the ruling judge admitted he wouldn`t want to expose his kids to such a woman. What kind of a jerk is this judge?

RUSSELL: I`m an expert in child custody cases, and I`ve never seen anything like this from a judge. This is absolutely horrendous. You and I have talked about something like this before with the Kyron Horman (ph) case. And that is the lesson for every single parent out there is that your love life, your sex life takes a back seat to the best interests of your kids. And whenever you are thinking about bringing a significant other into your kids` lives, the only question on your mind should be what benefit or detriment will this person have to my kids? And if there`s anything in their history that indicates they might pose a danger, that`s it. They are unacceptable.

BEHAR: But the husband`s probably in denial, too, right, Bethany? The husband doesn`t --

MARSHALL: Well, the husband may be offender identified and maybe the judge is offender identified, too, meaning that they feel more sorry for homicidal mom than towards these vulnerable young children.

BEHAR: Wow. I will tell you, there`s a --

(CROSSTALK)

RUSSELL: I diagnose them as insane.

BEHAR: There`s a war against children going on in this country. It`s very disturbing. These stories are outrageous to me. And I want to thank you guys for weighing in on these stories. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Allison Janney is beloved by fans for her Emmy-winning turn as C.J. Craig in "The West Wing." In her new film, "The Help," which is based on the best-seller about black maids working for white families in 1960s Mississippi, she plays a mother hellbent on getting her daughter married. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALLISON JANNEY, ACTRESS: This dress is just precious on you. Just take it in a little here, a little there, get your hair fixed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got a job today.

JANNEY: Where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Writing for the "Jackson Journal."

JANNEY: Great. You can write my obituary. Charlotte Phelan dead, her daughter, still single.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: The wig is going to win an Oscar. With me now is the lovely and talented Allison Janney. I love the wig.

JANNEY: I got to wear so many wigs. I had to wear a bald cap and a wig on top of that and a wig on top of that.

BEHAR: Really?

JANNEY: Yes. I have a lot of wigs in this movie.

BEHAR: Were you playing a religious Jew or something?

JANNEY: No, Charlotte Phelan, the character I play, has cancer. So they had to show that she was losing her hair, which is why she had a penchant for wearing lots of different wigs.

BEHAR: I see.

JANNEY: So it was a long process to get in the day. That and the girdles and the 115-degree heat made it very challenging.

BEHAR: I always think that actors have a very hard time. You know, some of the parts, things you have to do. Running and the heat and carrying on -- and water, going into water. I was reading -- I once read Natalie Wood`s biography. The girl was petrified of water, they always were putting her in scenes with water.

JANNEY: Because they wanted her in a bathing suit or something.

BEHAR: Yes.

JANNEY: I don`t like acting outdoors. That`s my thing.

BEHAR: Oh, outdoors.

JANNEY: Outdoor acting is very difficult.

BEHAR: Yes.

JANNEY: And acting in streams -- anything -- I`m a studio gal.

BEHAR: You are. Well, most of your work is inside, isn`t it?

JANNEY: Yes, yes, thank goodness.

BEHAR: Now, this movie, "The Help," which is a big best-selling book, I mean, there`s a lot of pressure to make a great film out of a good book.

JANNEY: You know, the thing that was so unusual about this is that Kathryn Stockett wrote the book, and her best friend, Tate Taylor, they grew up together in Jackson, Mississippi, he started writing the adaptation of the book before it was even picked up by a publisher. She was turned down by like 50 or 60 publishers. And so he started writing the adaptation and finished it before the book became a huge hit. So the pressure was kind of off him to feel that he had to be responsible for this beloved book.

And he ended up -- I don`t know. He wrote a beautiful screenplay. It really does well by the book. Of course he couldn`t have everything in the book because it would be a four-hour movie. But he got the right things in there, it`s really good.

BEHAR: And the accent is -- supposedly from a black maid is very much the way they spoke in those days, I believe, in Mississippi. There`s some controversy around it, that the white people also had accents and they`re not written with accents. What do you make of that?

JANNEY: I don`t know what you`re talking about.

BEHAR: OK. Because the book --

JANNEY: No, I mean, I worked on an -- are you talking about accents, just accents? Yes, I worked very hard on --

BEHAR: The drawl.

JANNEY: As a matter of fact, we had a wonderful dialect coach, Nadia Vanesse (ph), who decided that the woman of my age would have stronger accents than the young girls because of the introduction of television, that sort of took away some accents. And Viola Davis and Octavia Spencer worked on their dialects, as well. We all took it very seriously.

BEHAR: Yes, I`m reading the book. And in the book, the black maids have this really very, very strong --

JANNEY: Oh, you`re talking about her writing in that dialect.

BEHAR: Yes.

JANNEY: Is controversial.

BEHAR: Writing in the dialect, yes.

JANNEY: I don`t know if she can do it. I think it`s great. If she grew up in the South in Jackson, and the whole reason she wrote the book was to -- because she missed the woman who raised her, this black woman who raised her. And she wanted to do something to honor her memory. I think it all came from a really, really good place.

BEHAR: I`m sure it did. But people criticize everything.

JANNEY: Yes, they do. They have a right to criticize it.

BEHAR: Yes. But, you know, let`s talk about you, though. You`re six-feet tall.

JANNEY: Yes.

BEHAR: Has that been a hindrance or a help to you?

JANNEY: I think it`s kind of -- a bit of both. I think it helps me in some comedies. People love to see a tall woman next to a very short man.

BEHAR: Yes, it`s hilarious.

JANNEY: Very funny. It`s hilarious. And short women -- Kristin Chenowith (ph) and I, Alan Sorkin made us always do scenes together, because he loved to see us walk down the hall with me, as you know, five- inch heels and her in flats.

BEHAR: She`s quite tall--

JANNEY: She`s very teeny.

BEHAR: Tiny, yes.

JANNEY: I think she -- we had a line where she looked at me and she said, or I looked at her and I said, are we in the same species? Like there was--

BEHAR: Didn`t some casting director tell you you could only play a lesbian alien?

JANNEY: Well, she didn`t say I could only do that. She just said, I don`t know what to do with you, you`re so tall -- this is back when I was trying to get an agent in my 20s. And she just looked at me and said, you`re so tall, I don`t know, what are you going to play? Lesbians and aliens. I can`t -- she couldn`t see me playing anything else.

BEHAR: Well, isn`t she open-minded and forward looking.

JANNEY: I know. Take that. I have played a lesbian. I have not played an alien, and I`m not averse to playing aliens.

BEHAR: You`re not?

JANNEY: No.

BEHAR: But you have played a lesbian.

JANNEY: I have played a lesbian.

BEHAR: You were Meryl Streep`s lover in "The Hours."

JANNEY: What a great lesbian to be.

BEHAR: I mean, really, if you`re going to have somebody to be a lesbian with, that`s the one.

JANNEY: She was -- do you know what she did for me in our kiss? She said, I`m going to do you a big favor -- not that I needed it -- but she went in to kiss me and she pulled my face back a little for my closeup with her.

BEHAR: Oh, isn`t she sweet?

JANNEY: She`s so cool.

BEHAR: Any tongues?

JANNEY: A little -- I think I bit her tongue a little bit because I was so shocked that it went into my mouth.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: All right. We`ll have more with Allison Janney in just a minute. Stay there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANNEY: There were 36 homicides last night, 480 sexual assaults, 3,411 robberies, 3,685 aggravated assaults, all at gunpoint. And if anyone thinks those crimes could have been prevented if the victims themselves had been carrying guns, I`d only remind you that the president of the United States was shot last night while surrounded by the best trained armed guards in the history of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: That was Allison Janney as press secretary C.J. Craig on "The West Wing." That`s great writing.

JANNEY: God, I just got chills. I really did, I started to cry. He always wrote these speeches that just made me so impassioned.

BEHAR: They got to you.

JANNEY: Yes, they really did.

BEHAR: You know, the show was a big hit during the Bush administration. Do you think that that contributed to the fact that it was a big hit? Like people were dying to see some other, more sane administration?

JANNEY: Yes, yes, I mean, we started out during the Clinton administration, actually, and we were, you know, the toast of the town when we went to Washington, and then Bush went into office and we were not welcome there because Martin Sheen was -- his comments were always quite incendiary.

BEHAR: In real life.

JANNEY: Yes. So we weren`t really invited into the White House anymore.

BEHAR: You`re kidding. You mean Cheney didn`t welcome you with open arms?

JANNEY: No.

BEHAR: Come on, liberals. Yes, right.

JANNEY: No, no.

BEHAR: Did you get any advice from Dee Dee Meyers?

JANNEY: I talked to all the press secretaries. Dee Dee and Joe Lockhart and who was the one before him?

BEHAR: Scott McClellan.

JANNEY: Scott McClellan, love him. They`re so -- they were wonderful.

BEHAR: McClellan turned on Bush. He wrote that book.

JANNEY: I didn`t read it but I should.

BEHAR: Yes, he turned on him.

JANNEY: They were fascinating to talk to. And a really difficult job.

BEHAR: It`s such a hard job.

JANNEY: Yes.

BEHAR: Do you think you`d ever really want that job?

JANNEY: God, no.

BEHAR: They have to like make up -- dance around everything.

JANNEY: They have to be the servant of two masters and they are never -- you know -- no, it would not be a job I would be good at.

BEHAR: What do you -- some people on Twitter are posing as West Wing characters, I understand.

JANNEY: Are you serious?

BEHAR: Yes, see the floor guy, he is nodding his head. He does it, apparently.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: And they`re tweeting their take on politics. So we would like to know what would C.J. have to say about President Obama, do you think?

JANNEY: Well, oh, God, that`s such a great question. I wish I could answer it articulately.

BEHAR: Would she say that she thought he did a good job on the debt ceiling?

JANNEY: I think she would say she probably would have wanted him to play it differently. I think Obama tends to put everything he wants out there, not wanting to negotiate, just this is what we want, this is the deal and I think he doesn`t like to play the games as much.

BEHAR: He expects everybody to be a grownup like he is.

JANNEY: Exactly. And they`re just not. She would be very frustrated, but still behind him 100 percent.

BEHAR: OK. Thank you very much, Allison, for doing the show. Lovely to have you here.

JANNEY: Nice to see you.

BEHAR: Be sure to check her out in "The Help" in theaters August 10. Thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.

Before we go, don`t forget CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24-hour news online and on mobile. Which means even if you`re not sitting in front of a TV, you can watch live, including breaking news. Check out CNN.com/video to find out how.

END