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Reality Suicide; Is Porn Good?; Beyond Scared Straight

Aired August 16, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Russell Armstrong, husband of "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" star Taylor Armstrong was found dead of an apparent suicide just weeks after the real housewife filed for divorce from him. We know reality shows make quick celebrities, but do they also ruin lives?

And Casey Anthony`s lawyer denies she signed a book deal. Meanwhile, Casey`s legal team appeals an order that she serve probation in Orlando. So, will we see her back in Florida soon?

Plus a slew of studies say porn is ruining relationships. Porn star Ron Jeremy is here to defend the industry.

That and more starting now.

E.D. HILL, GUEST HOST: Good evening, I`m E.D. Hill, in for Joy. We begin with breaking news tonight.

Russell Armstrong, the estranged husband of the "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" star Taylor Armstrong has been found dead of an apparent suicide. He was reportedly found hanging in the bedroom at a friend`s house on Mulholland drive in Los Angeles last night. He was 47.

Joining me now with more on this is Ronald Richards, Russell`s attorney. Thank you very much for being with us.

RONALD RICHARDS, ATTORNEY FOR RUSSELL ARMSTRONG: Thank you.

HILL: How did you hear the news?

RICHARDS: I heard the news through confidential sources like I normally receive this type of terrible information.

HILL: And they said that he had been found -- was there a note or any indication what had happened?

RICHARDS: No, there was no note, and there`s -- I think everyone involved knows the indications as to why it happened.

HILL: I understand that in the new season of Taylor`s show, she opens up about the troubles that they were having. Every couple has troubles. But she talks about this on air.

As a friend of his, was he distraught about this kind of becoming dirty laundry hanging out there in the public?

RICHARDS: Well, yes. He runs a financial business. And he was concerned about what the other housewives were going to repeat when they would sit around and drink a little bit and then just loose comments were re-published on some of these episodes that hadn`t been aired yet. It started to weigh on him a lot.

HILL: And I understand that there were also other difficulties. He clearly had been a successful man. Reportedly -- and I don`t know if this is true or not -- reportedly he was having money troubles. It seems like there were a lot of things that were just kind of coming down all around him. Is that accurate?

RICHARDS: Yes. I think unfortunately couples -- not all of them, but a lot of them exaggerate their net worth to go on these shows. And the exaggerations become multiplied and compacted and then multiplied again to where they end up trying to spend money to support an economic status that is nonexistent.

HILL: That`s interesting. So basically they`re caught up in this whole sort of vicious cycle of trying to pretend that they are who they claimed they were when they`re not.

RICHARDS: Exactly. And they also try to keep up with the Joneses, with the other couples on the show to see who could outspend each other and do something more made for television. And it turns out to become a huge financial burden because the brand value of the reality star doesn`t translate into dollars and cents until usually six months to two years after the show airs.

HILL: You know, I also get the sense that in shows like this -- in other reality TV shows, the worse things are the better it is for the show.

RICHARDS: Absolutely.

HILL: So there seems to be a tendency for people not to necessarily want to work on issues or to take things and -- I`m not saying this happened in this case -- I don`t know what happened. But to make the worst of it instead of make the best of it.

RICHARDS: Well, it`s implied when you allow a show to film your private lives that controversy is going to be capitalized and multiplied by the producers of that show. And that`s part of what makes the show attractive to the audience.

HILL: Did you get the sense that you were talking about them trying to live up to what people thought they were, how wealthy they thought they were, who -- you know, the glamorous couple. Did you get a sense that she was pressuring him and clearly she`d married the guy when he was very successful. And as you say he was having difficulties now. Was there that pressure on him?

RICHARDS: The pressure to keep the lifestyle going? What kind of pressure are you referring to?

HILL: Just to be more. To be more successful, more -- you know, outgoing, you know, more something -- more of a star, more of a star?

RICHARDS: He was not the star. His wife was the star. He was a supporting cast member, for lack of a better analogy. But, you know, it became overwhelming to service all that debt to have the appearance that you`re a multi-multimillionaire when you`re in fact a successful person but you`re not a multi-millionaire.

I mean most people in this town unfortunately, if they make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year they can fake that they`re making a couple million a year. But when the rubber hits the road, the reality sets in. Eventually you can`t do that anymore.

HILL: Yes. In some of the segments, you could see them at a party or something. And she would be talking to everybody, and he`d come up and say, ok, time to go.

When you talk about their debt, who did they owe money to? What were they spending it on?

RICHARDS: They were spending it on stuff that normal couples in their 40s and 50s spend money on -- cars, renting a nice house, weekend trips. Their kids were treated very well, and -- go ahead.

HILL: Did you get the sense that their lifestyle had started to change or that they were changing it as this show progressed?

RICHARDS: Of course. You have to realize if you commit yourself to a reality show, you`re not working. Imagine all day if all I did is do TV interviews. I`d be, you know, with a sign outside on Sunset Boulevard asking for handouts. I mean, you need to work in order to generate money. And if your work is all day long, you`re thinking about what you`re going to do for the TV show, you`re not working or generating income. You`re generating content which doesn`t pay the bills.

HILL: And how much was he in debt? What kind of money are we talking about? A million dollars, $10 million?

RICHARDS: It -- when you use the word "in debt", this is what I`m referring to. Let`s say your monthly nut is $50,000 a month, ok? And you`ve spent all your money now getting your spouse in a position to where her career is now going to take off and you`re going to be able to get some brand endorsements and stuff like that.

You don`t have any saving, but you have $50,000 a month and where is it going to come from? You start using your credit cards. You start selling whatever remaining assets you have. And you`re just living month to month. It doesn`t mean you`re in huge debts, but those debts, 50,000 it will be one month, and then it`s 100,000 the next and then 150,000. If you have no assets or no cash coming in the door or, you know, a fixed income of $30,000-$40,000 a month, the money goes. You have nothing left.

HILL: Ronald, what you`re kind of suggesting is he bankrolled making her a star, and just as it was taking off, she`s dumping him.

RICHARDS: Well, I`m -- I`m telling it the way it is. I`m not -- it`s a marriage, it`s not slavery. No one`s blaming anybody for ending the marriage. It`s -- everybody has a free choice. However, that`s exactly what happened here as it does in most cases. Spouse A becomes famous --

HILL: You`re not blaming her for him deciding to kill himself?

RICHARDS: No. Of course I`m -- nobody would blame anybody. He needs to blame himself. Because I was available if he need me to go over there last night. I was only in Memphis for the day. And I was available to him, he had all my phone numbers. And he confided with me in a lot of stressors in his life. And I`ve helped him through most of them. But I think that if he didn`t have anybody, but he had his attorney and friend that is good at solving these problems. I mean, that`s why I was brought on --

HILL: You didn`t see it coming?

RICHARDS: If I had seen it coming, I would have intervened with help and given him a hug and got him straightened out. He just -- he never expressed this to me or anybody else. I don`t think anybody saw taking your own life as something that -- that that was in the horizon. If it was, he had people in his life that would have intervened here.

HILL: All right. Ronald Richards, thank you very much for being with us.

RICHARDS: Thank you.

HILL: We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Is watching porn good or bad for you? Well, it depends who you ask. A new article in "Scientific American", says porn may not be as bad as you think. Apparently porn does not promote sexism and could actually help curb sexual aggression, that`s according to that study. But there are of course, are other studies that say the opposite.

So what`s the truth? Here now to debate, Ron Jeremy, porn actor and advocate and Gail Dines, professor of sociology at Women`s Studies at Wheelock College and the author of book, "Pornland: How Porn has Hijacked our Sexuality".

And Gail, I want to start with you. You say that porn really has -- is part of our culture, it`s seeped in there. How has it impacted us?

GAIL DINES, AUTHOR, "PORNLAND": Well, I think firstly, if we`re going to talk about pornography, I bet many of your viewers aren`t sure what we`re talking about. Because many people tend to have an image of porn as kind of "Playboy" 10, 15 years ago, of a naked woman, you know, bending over, coyly smiling in a cornfield.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: So what are you talking about?

DINES: Well, I`m talking about mainstream porn on the Internet. The sort of pornography you get if you type "porn" into Google. Which you are now looking at body-punishing, cruel sex, women being gagged with penises, women being roughly penetrated by three or four men as they`re calling her the most awful names or spitting on her face or slapping her and just doing all sorts of really violent, aggressive, demeaning things to her. Now that`s the kind of porn that I talk about in "Pornland" because that is mainstream.

And when you have advocates from the porn industry like Ron Jeremy, what they want to say is that this is just marginalized and the worst. And they know as well as I do that the main type of profitable pornography today in the industry is body-punishing, hard-core pornography.

HILL: Ron --

(CROSSTALK)

DINES: That has seeped into our culture.

HILL: Ron, is that true?

RON JEREMY, PORN ACTOR: Well, first of all, there`s many types of adult films. She`s focusing on some of the rougher stuff that`s made by some of the companies that do that, Extreme Video, Max Hard Core. But she`s not talking about films by Vivid, Metro, Wicked, you know, look at "Pirates," the biggest selling film last year. It`s the blockbuster as mainstream movie.

You know the majority of porn that I`ve seen that`s in the industry in America is actually much, much softer than that. She`s referring to films made in Europe, you know, and plus --

(CROSSTALK)

DINES: No, I`m not.

JEREMY: To add to what you said before about the "Scientific American" article.

HILL: Yes.

JEREMY: There`s also articles in the "Washington Post", "Newsweek", in fact in 2007 that said the same thing. That viewing adult material doesn`t lead to sexually, you know, outlawish behavior. And in fact, in some ways can calm a person, as you said earlier on this show. A person that would be a possible predator would see an adult film and as (INAUDIBLE) would say, pleasure himself and maybe not commit the crime.

So porn has that kind of good effect.

HILL: But everything else it`s -- it`s a business. And Gail, what you`re saying where the money is right now is -- is where it -- it just is -- it`s horrible, where you`re talking about the hard-core stuff. And --

(CROSSTALK)

JEREMY: A lot of women --

DINES: Well, just a minute, I`m not saying that, the industry -- the industry is saying that. If you go on adult video news and click on the charts to get the 50 best-selling videos and rentals today, you will see that, yes, you`ve got Vivid here and you`ve got Wicked, but the truth is the vast majority of them are Gonzo producing studios.

You know that as well as I do. What your job is to speak for the industry. That makes perfect sense. But let me tell you as somebody who has studied the industry, who has spoken to many, many people who produce pornography, who has read virtually all of the research out there, you know, you can pick up some junk science. There`s no question.

It`s like the climate deniers, the climate change deniers. There`s a few junk scientists out there who say there`s no such thing as climate change.

The reality is, the weight of 30 years of study, without question, is showing that pornography impacts the way men think about women and the way they behave to women.

HILL: Ron, do you think that?

JEREMY: No. I mean because first of all, porn is for 18 and over. By the time you`re 18 years of age, you can make all kinds of decisions, you go to the Army, fight and die for your country. You know, the impressionable minds are the minds that are under 18. And they`ve often said that video games or kids playing these violent video games have much more of detrimental effect than an adult watching an x-rated movie --

DINES: No, they don`t. No, they don`t. No, they don`t.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Now, Ron let me ask you --

JEREMY: -- plus there are lot of women, a lot of women. Hold it, hold it, guys, women also -- what she`s forgetting to tell you is that to say, 50 percent of all porn is produced and directed by women. Most women have their own Web sites --

(CROSSTALK)

DINES: Ok, can I answer that? Can I answer that?

HILL: Ron?

JEREMY: Yes.

DINES: Ok, there`s a new study out -- there`s a new study out that actually compares the pornography produced by women versus the pornography produced by men. It`s just been published in a Peer Review Journal. And what they found is pornography produced by women is actually slightly more violent and demeaning than that produced by men.

So that has absolutely cut no cloth. Also the vast majority of consumers today are still men. And I think less than 20 percent of consumers that rent pornography is women and that`s not the hard-core pornography that they`re consuming.

HILL: Let me bring up something Ron that you mentioned. You said on -- they`re watching on line, they`re over 18. But the information that I`ve seen indicates that -- and of course I think it`s just common sense tells us that anybody can get on to the Internet. And anybody can find whatever they want.

I have read that it`s really kids at about the age of 11 who are first exposed to porn. And at that point, they`re not really making their own decisions about what`s -- what`s harmful, what do I want to see. It just is there.

So Ron, how do you -- do you differentiate between the porn you go to the store and you rent and what is on the Internet?

JEREMY: Unfortunately, your statistic is actually correct. They say people often see their first porn at age 11. And we don`t endorse that. We are for 18 and over. And parents who are good at this have many, many lock devices where you cannot get porn. I mean I`ve been in hotels all over the country where you can`t access anything that`s even R-rated.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Yes but you know what, they go to their friend`s house and their friend`s parents haven`t done -- I mean, I`m a parent. Anything kids want to get to, they get to it.

JEREMY: Look, well, I just pick it to my dad`s collection --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Sorry, Gail.

DINES: All the studies that have been done that show the harmful effects have actually have been done on 18 and older. They have not actually, I know, done many studies on 11-year-olds.

But let me say something else, Ron Jeremy comes out with the standard line from the porn industry, it`s all about parents. You know what, you`re a parent, I`m a parent. The truth is we don`t bring our children up. The culture brings our children up. We cannot be following our children 24 hours a day --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me -- let me ask about the culture. Because you know, you can say porn is good or bad, does it -- does it help a relationship? Because some people say it helps it, other people say it takes the emotion out of it.

Ron, what`s your experience?

JEREMY: I`d like to add -- look, a lot of what you guys are saying is true and things that we don`t actually like. And there`s an organization called Association of Sites Advocating Child Protection. I`m sure this lady`s heard of it, ASACP, which tries to monitor things like that.

In where -- where minors are going to have access to porn, we`re against that. We like to have adults watch us. And what I want to bring up the point is what kind of porn would make this woman happy? Let`s say a nice Nina Harley tape machine, Adam and Eve makes these films where you have how-to guides, husbands and wives watch the videos, learn how to have make love in different positions.

I mean, there are some videos that are very soft, very pretty, very -- you know, couples oriented. Is this woman that we`re speaking to, is she against the whole industry or the --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: I`m not sure I`ve heard porn referred to as pretty. But we`re going to take a quick break and --

GAIL DINES: First of all, my name is Gail Dines, not "this woman". And let me tell you --

JEREMY: Hi Gail.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Gail we`re going to take a break -- you get the first word as soon as we come back.

A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Coming up tonight on "Showbiz Tonight", a "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" suicide shocker. The husband of "Real Housewives" star Taylor Armstrong found dead. We`ll see you at 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific here on HLN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GREGORY: Welcome back. We`ve been debating porn with porn actor Ron Jeremy and the author of "Pornland", Gail Dines. And Gail I said that you would get the first word when we came back. Go.

DINES: Ok. So we`re talking about the effects of pornography on men who use it. So I`m going to tell you what studies show now and what interviews show. So we`ve got different types of study, experimental and interviews.

What they show very interestingly is that the more pornography men use, the less able they are to develop intimate relationships with women. And also when you speak to the women they`re with, they talk about what happens when their boyfriends start getting heavily into pornography.

Now what`s interesting and what we`re talking about here is all these things saying there`s no effect on relationship. Study after study after study is showing that the matrimonial lawyers -- divorce lawyers of America are saying that over 50 percent of marriages today are breaking up because pornography is implicated somewhere in the dissolution of the relationship. Study after study is showing this.

HILL: Ron, when a guy watches a lot of porn, doesn`t he sort of turn to his partner and expect that sort of thing is normal? You know, that that`s what should be happening at home? And it`s -- frankly, it`s probably not.

JEREMY: When I lecture in colleges and I asked the audience to raise hands, who watches porn with a significant other, boyfriend, girlfriend, or whatever. A tremendous number of hands go up. There are a lot of people who watch porn together as a couple.

And again, as I said before, there are all kinds of films, whatever your fantasy may be. If you want some of the softer films, more of the couples-oriented, romantic films shot on beautiful locations, Hawaii, exotic stuff, more normal sex positions, they make those films. You also get films for more stronger fantasies.

If people are seeing them together and -- there are some sex therapists that actually say that sometimes if you`ve had a long relationship and want a little spice, they say to use toys, wardrobe changing, costumes, role changing, exotic locations, watching porn. That`s one of the things the therapists say. Does Gail feel -- does Gail feel that porn can ever be ok?

(CROSSTALK)

DINES: This is the trouble when you debate a pornographer, they don`t listen to women. This is the problem. Let me say something. Well, the studies show again -- what the industry is saying is that the pornography that men watch with their girlfriends is very different to the pornography they watch when they`re alone. With their girlfriends, they are watching what are called feature porn, which is actually a little bit softer and not as body punishing and hard core.

When the girlfriend or the wife leaves, what comes out is the gonzo porn, which is body-punishing porn. This is what the industry is saying themselves. I`m not saying this. I read the industry journals. I read the industry trade magazines. That`s where I get my information from.

HILL: Ron, is that fair?

JEREMY: You know, it`s -- I need to see more research on this. I mean, does Gail -- will she accept the fact that there are women out there who like some stronger fantasies and they do get a kick out some -- you get S&M films, B&D films, or the woman dominates the man, man dominates the woman -- there`s a genre of film -- hold on -- a woman wears high heels, the man has a ball gag in his mouth, her high heels on his back. I mean there are films where the man is dominated, too.

Does Gail accept the fact some people have far-out fantasies and that adult -- videos are --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Is it a fantasy or is it a problem? If you want to see somebody hurt?

DINES: Pornography is not fantasy. Pornography is reality. What happens in pornography is a documentation of what actually happened to that woman in her life. Also let me tell you what we know, again, is that men do not have two separate brains, one marked "fantasy", one marked "reality".

What we know is that the images of pornography and the way they think about sex from looking at pornography leaks into their everyday life. It leaks into the relationships. It leaks into their sexual identity. It leaks into what they think about their own selves and what they think about women. No, it is not fantasy, it`s reality.

HILLS: All right. Gail Dines, the author of "Pornland", thank you very much. Ron Jeremy, thank you for joining us also.

DINES: Thank you.

HILL: When we come back, I will have an update for you on Casey Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Good evening, once again, everyone. I`m E.D. Hill in for the vacationing Joy Behar.

So has Casey Anthony signed a six-figure book deal? Some reports say yes. Her lawyer says no. But will someone eventually pay for Casey to tell her story? Here to talk about that is Michael Christian, field producer for "In Session" on Trutv. Hey there. What`s this about a possible book deal?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, TRUTV: This was a report, E.D., coming out of Southern California that supposedly, as you say, someone had worked out a deal with Casey Anthony for a six-figure deal to write a book. Now, six figures is a very nebulous figure. That could be very, very low, very, very, high. It`s still less than the $1.5 million we hard rumored that she was going to get for a television interview. However, Jose Baez says no, this is not happening, this is not true. So it seems right now this is another rumor that just isn`t going anywhere regarding Casey.

HILL: I assume if there is any truth to this, law enforcement then wants some money. Because of what she told them or didn`t tell them, they spent a lot of resources searching for Caylee. So they would try to get reimbursed, wouldn`t they?

CHRISTIAN: That`s right. They`re going to have a hearing later this month for this very issue. Right now she`s considered indigent. She`s insolvent, she has no money. As soon as she makes any money, she becomes open field here for people who want money from her, either from the state or from private lawsuits. So right now she`s judgment proof, but if she does make any money, that changes.

HILL: So indigent, what does she do right now? Where is she staying, how is she eating? Who`s taking care of her?

CHRISTIAN: Wouldn`t we all like to know that? Right now, we just don`t know. There were reports she was in Ohio, as you know. There have been reports that she`s in the San Diego area. Her attorneys aren`t saying. All Cheney Mason, one of her attorneys has told us, is that she`s not in the state of Florida, and that`s literally all we know at this point.

HILL: And what about her parents, Cindy and George Anthony? I heard they were doing an interview with Dr. Phil McGraw?

CHRISTIAN: They are. That was announced today. Apparently that interview is going to air on September 12th. They are not making any money for this interview. Apparently anything that they would be paid for it is going to Caylee`s Fund, which is the nonprofit memorial that they`ve set up.

It`s interesting -- there were also rumors last week that they had signed a book deal with Simon & Schuster, but they denied that through their attorney, Mark Lippman, and Simon & Schuster later put out its own statement saying no, there`s no deal.

HILL: But is it just a matter of timing? Everybody wants to know now that they`re out of court what really happened. So isn`t someone going to step forward with a lot of money?

CHRISTIAN: It seems like that could happen. The problem with Casey Anthony is can you believe her? Whether it`s in an interview, on the air, whether it`s live, whether it`s taped, whether it`s a book, can you believe her? She doesn`t have the best reputation, shall we say, for telling the truth. And I think a lot of people would love to know exactly what happened. But they`re not sure they`re going to get it from Casey Anthony.

HILL: What about the claim that Casey`s lawyers are going to appeal the judge`s order that she serve probation in Orlando for that check fraud conviction? What do you know about that?

CHRISTIAN: They have, indeed, announced that they are planning to appeal that. They have not yet filed that appeal. We`re expecting that would happen in Daytona, Florida, because that`s the Fifth District Court of Appeals in Florida that covers Orlando. As of yet, that has not happened. So at this point, Casey is due to report in Orlando at least by noon on the 26th, which is a week from Friday, to begin her probation.

HILL: So if she does serve probation in Orlando -- I know we don`t know where she is now -- do we know where she`ll be then?

CHRISTIAN: We know she won`t be living with her parents because they`ve already said that. Normally when someone`s on probation, their place of employment and their residence is a public record. However, Casey Anthony`s different. There is a safety factor. So when Judge Belvin Perry made his ruling last week, he did say that at its discretion the probation office could delete or omit those details from its public files.

I think she will get a job somewhere. I think she will be living somewhere, but unless somebody snoops it out, I don`t think we`re going to be officially finding out where it is.

HILL: Who`s going to give her a job?

CHRISTIAN: You know, she`s got a great support staff in her lawyers. They`re almost a second family to her. And I think they`ll help her find something. I think there are also people in Orlando who genuinely would want to give her a second chance to see if she can do it. So I think she can find a job. The problem is what kind of a job it ends up being, and if it has anything to do with the public. Because I`m not sure the public in Orlando necessarily wants her to do a clean parole.

HILL: All right, thanks so much for joining us, Michael.

CHRISTIAN: Sure.

HILL: I want to change gears now. "Beyond Scared Straight" is an A&E series that follows troubled teens as they spend a day in prison to learn directly from the guards and the inmates the realty of life behind bars. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am the baddest thing in here. Every day, all day. Males, females, murderers, thieves, larceny, it don`t matter. I`m running this. And until you get that, this is where you will be 23 hours of the day. Make your bed, get with the program, fro. You are advised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So do these programs really scare kids and put them on the straight and narrow? Here now to discuss are Arnold Shapiro, the creator and executive producer of "Beyond Scared Straight." Also joining me in the studio, two teens who were featured on the show. Orben is 19 years old and Jose, who`s 15 years old. Welcome all, thank you.

Arnold, let me start with you. In the `70s you produced the "Scared Straight" documentary and that started the scared straight programs across the country. So how are these type of intervention programs different today?

ARNOLD SHAPIRO, CREATOR, "BEYOND SCARED STRAIGHT": They`re very different in the 21st century because there`s now a counseling component where inmates and officers talk to the kids, sometimes one-on-one, about what`s happening in their family life and the community. So it`s a lot more than scaring or intimidation. It`s an actual connection. And the other difference is that many of these programs now involve the parents. Either the parents going through a parenting class or the parents participating in the tour itself. And that`s different than the program that I originally taped in 1978 that I named scared straight.

HILL: The inmates and the guards, as we watch this, they are in the kids` faces. Is the point to terrify them, or is fear simply the best way to get through to them?

SHAPIRO: No, it`s not fear, and it`s not terrifying. What they`re trying to do is get their attention and make them realize that prison and jail is the worst place that they would ever want to wind up. And there is a lot of intimidation, there`s a lot of breaking them down, because when most of these teens arrive, they`re laughing, they`re arrogant, they`re not really taking it seriously. It`s a day away from school.

So the idea is to really get their attention. It`s sort of like basic training concept in the military. And once they have their attention, after the yelling and the threats and the intimidation, then they can talk to them, and the young people will really listen, whereas when they come in, they`re not listening.

HILL: Orben, was that how you experienced it? When you came in, were you sort of feeling like, you know, I`m going to get through this, and that`s about it? How did you enter?

ORBEN, FEATURED ON "BEYOND SCARED STRAIGHT": Well, basically what he said is kind of a really good representation of, you know, kind of how it goes. I was actually -- I`m a pretty well-spoken person, you know. And I`ve never really had any problems with people. I`m pretty -- usually pretty easy to get along with. So I didn`t expect to make any enemies, and I expected it to go fairly easily. You know, I know people who are in prison are very, very hard-core, very -- you know, a lot of times violent. But I didn`t expect to, you know, have any real issues. I was thinking it was going to be a walk in the park, you know, a cake walk.

But like he said, you get there, and, you know, they`re really in your face, and it really starts getting serious before you know it. And after all of that, like he said, after you`ve been broken down and after that idea that it was going to be not a big deal and it was going to be simple had been wiped from my mind, they were able to, you know, sit down with me on a real level and really let me know what prison is like. They were showing us pictures of dead bodies, people who had been killed in the very prison that I found myself sitting in. You know, shanks and different tools made out of, you know, toothbrushes and padlocks and things like that, that had been used to kill people in the prison that I`m sitting in. So it`s a real eye-opener. And it really makes you appreciate, you know, your own freedom.

HILL: You`re getting -- getting the chances that you do.

Jose, what about you? When you went in there, did you feel like -- were you going in there kind of cocky?

JOSE, FEATURED ON "BEYOND SCARED STRAIGHT": Yes. I mean, at first I was. At first I was like, man, I`m going to walk in and walk out. Like it ain`t no problem. Ain`t nobody going to touch me. And then when I got there, at first, yes, I mean, it wasn`t that bad. But then I started realizing this is really not what I thought it was going to be.

HILL: Do you start with a bit of an attitude because there are other kids there? And it`s like, OK, well, I`m not going to show that I`m scared, I am not going to show that I am intimidated at all?

JOSE: I mean, I was -- they were screaming at me, I was screaming back. You know? And I was giving an attitude. I was giving a big attitude to them. But they were putting me down, you know. They were pushing me. They were just getting all over my face. I was getting pissed, I was getting mad, you know.

HILL: Arnold, you`re filming these kids in the jails. Is there ever a point that you think the inmates go too far?

SHAPIRO: Never. I`ve never seen that. These inmates are selected by the deputies and the officers to participate in these programs. They certainly don`t put people in there who are going to act irresponsibly. Most of these inmates have children of their own. They know how -- these programs could be shut down if something inappropriate happens. And they`re very good.

Remember, this is a last resort for most parents and even counselors who send kids to these programs. This isn`t where it starts. These kids have been -- people have tried to talk to them and reason with them, and all kinds of other traditional techniques. We`ve had countless parents say I hope this works because we don`t know where to go from here. This is a last resort.

So it`s expected to be tough. These are -- yes, these kids are sensitive, but sometimes it takes breaking somebody down before you can build them up and help them be law-abiding, honest citizens.

HILL: OK. We`re going to take a look at that process when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you got your fist balled up for? What do you want to, punch? You want to strike? You feel tough? You feel tough like that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take them off.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take them off! Take the left one off! You mean you`ll sacrifice your life -- you mean you`ll sacrifice your life for a pair of shoes in prison? How stupid is that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That was a look at a clip from "Beyond Scared Straight" from A&E. Orben, that was you in there. What were you thinking as they were just yelling in your face?

ORBEN: Yes, that was me. It was pretty intense. You know, I didn`t -- I didn`t expect that to be going on. But I was --

HILL: You seem detached. When you look at that, do you feel like it`s almost surreal?

ORBEN: Well, no. It`s -- you know, I`m pretty familiar with the experience. I spent a lot of time kind of reflecting on what was going through my mind there because a lot of people had asked me about it. But I remembered thinking, you know, I don`t want them to think I`m a punk.

HILL: Right.

ORBEN: So if you look at my expression, it`s -- I`m really trying to not show the fear that is actually like welling up inside of me. And like I don`t -- I don`t want to -- I don`t want them to -- I don`t want to give up my shoes, you know, because as soon as I do that, you know, oh, he`s a punk.

HILL: Yes.

ORBEN: And then it`s just over with. But at the same time, it`s very frightening. You know, the guy behind me was a -- the guy behind the big one who was in my face was, you know, saying, let me shank him, let me shank him, let me get at him, let me shank him. And it`s -- you kind of feel like you`re actually in danger. You really do.

HILL: How did you end up in this program? What -- what did you do?

ORBEN: Well, I never -- it wasn`t a particular incident, you know. It wasn`t any specific action on my part that landed me there. I was in a program for at-risk youth, OK.

HILL: So it just kind of grew one thing after another?

ORBEN: Yes. Like one thing led to another, and I ended up being a part of a group who was going to go to this prison. And then Arnold Shapiro was doing his thing with "Beyond Scared Straight," and the two things just kind of conjoined. I met him, and we -- things just went underway.

HILL: Jose, what about you, what led you into this program?

JOSE: Me? It was actually kind of a phone call. It was -- one of my friends was in the show, he got hooked up in the show. And they needed people, so -- but they needed someone who was bad, who was a juvenile, who has like a record. And you know, he called me, and he was like, oh, Jose, listen, man, do you want to be in "Beyond Scared Straight?" I was like, what is that? And he was like, it`s a show, blah, blah, blah. And he was telling me about it. And I was like, at first I was like, no, I don`t want to be in it. But then he was talking me into it. So I was like, OK, you know what, I`m going to go. And then so when I went, I talked to Arnold, as well, and, you know, we started going from there.

HILL: So what were you doing -- things like smoking pot, shoplifting, things like that?

JOSE: The reason that I -- I started out after my dad died. I was like -- `09. After he died, that`s when I started -- that`s when I was like, wow, I`m free, I can do whatever I want now. I don`t got no one that will (ph) worry about if I come home late or if I do this or that.

HILL: That you`d get in trouble.

JOSE: That I`m going to get in trouble basically. So what I used to do was, I used to go to the mall, I used to go shoplift, and I used to do all sorts of stuff. Now I can do it because now I ain`t got a guardian that, you know, would discipline me. So I started doing some stuff. And I got myself into trouble, you know. I started smoking. I smoked cigarettes, smoking weed. I was on coke.

HILL: Did you -- did you realize as this is progressing in your life -- and it sounds like it just kind of did that -- did you realize that you were going downhill?

JOSE: I mean, sometimes I would think about it and I would be like, well, my dad did it so why can`t I? I used to see my dad in the kitchen, you know, smoking and all that. I was like, well, if he smokes, then I can do it, too, you know. And I thought I was big, I didn`t know it would take me down because no one ever got in my face. No one ever tried me or anything. So I was -- I was a big boy. I mean, I thought I was bad. So I did the stuff that I did.

HILL: Probably there are folks who are watching right now, and I know that, you know, I sometimes think this -- you read a newspaper account of some kid getting in trouble. And you`re like, yeah, some kids are just bad. And I know it sounds horrible to say, but that`s kind of what goes through your mind. And then, you know, I talked to you, and you hear that there are so many things that are influencing you in your life. Your dad doing the stuff in front of you, those are the people that you expect, you know, to be your role models, to show you right from wrong, to -- what`s good, what`s bad, what`s acceptable, what`s not acceptable. And it -- it sounds like, you know, it`s a lot more than just a kid making mistakes and, you know, continuing to do that. Do you think it was more you or the things around you?

JOSE: I think it was both. Because I was 13, right, and I was in middle school. And my friends used to do pot. And I used to -- at first I used to be like, nah, I don`t want to do. But I always had that thought, you know, how would I feel if I tried it? And then as soon after he died, I was like, you know what, let me try it. Because I was actually -- it was killing me inside. I remember one day my friend, he was like, hey, let`s go smoke some pot. And I was like, dude, I don`t smoke, you know that, too. And he was like, come on, man. He was like, this is going to make you feel better about your dad. And I was like, seriously? And he was like, yeah. And so I said let`s go smoke, then. And I remember I smoked, and I actually inhaled it and all that, and then I was high but then I liked it. You know? I actually--

HILL: And it just keeps on going.

JOSE: Kept on going.

HILL: Little did you know it would lead you to this program.

We are going to take a quick break and continue discussing your experiences there and how you think that has changed you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back. I`m E.D. Hill and I`m talking with my guests about being scared straight. And Arnold, I want to ask you a bit more about putting this program together. Because there are critics who say it can be more harmful than the good that you can get out of it. What do you think? After working with this for quite a while now?

SHAPIRO: Absolutely not. The critics are basing this on some old studies that were done in the `70s and `80s. No program that exists today has ever been studied, and all the programs that were studied don`t exist today. As I said, in the 21st century, they`re very different, and you can`t find one person from a warden and a sheriff all the way down to a deputy who work in these programs and who see the results who will tell you that anything harmful comes out of it, that only good comes out of it for a number of the kids who go through it.

Not every program works for everybody, but this works for a lot of people, and we`ve now done 19 episodes of "Beyond Scared Straight," and the majority of the young people we have followed have made positive changes and improvements in their lives.

And Jose is an amazing example. He`s in our premiere episode of this Thursday night, and when you watch what he goes through, you will be 100 percent convinced that he will not change. And--

HILL: Jose, is that true? Have you changed? Do you know that after taking -- being in this program?

JOSE: Yes, I think I did change. I mean, at first I thought I wasn`t going to change. I just wanted to do it, and then you know, whatever, be on TV. I wanted to be on TV, you know, girls and guys, my friends. But when I got in there, I was like -- after -- literally I was thinking, this is what I was really thinking. I was like, I`m going to go in there and I`m going to walk out and I`m going to smoke a blunt after. When I come home, I will smoke.

HILL: And have you smoked? Are you still smoking?

JOSE: No, I`m not smoking.

HILL: You shoplifting?

JOSE: I`m not shoplifting. I`m not doing anything that could get me in any trouble. You know? I`m just trying to get my probation out of my way. I need four more months, and after that, clean record and just move on with life.

HILL: Orben, what about you?

ORBEN: I`m not doing anything wrong anymore. You know, all of my habits that I was in, the people that I was hanging out with, I left all of that behind me. And as far as the change, you know, it`s dramatic. The critics that say that this is harmful to anyone, I would have to completely disagree. Really it`s all about what you take out of it. Like you can go in, and when you`re really frightened to that level, you know, it can be scarring, you know. I can`t say that I didn`t have dreams about it later on in the future, it can be scarring. But if you take it in a positive way and you really take the message for what it is --

HILL: It can change your life.

ORBEN: Yes.

HILL: Orben, Jose, Arnold, thank you very much.

And I want to let folks know that "Beyond Scared Straight" premieres August 18th on A&E. Also, a quick programming note before we go. Tomorrow on the show I`m going to talk to Jerry Springer about the dangers of reality TV. I`ll also talk to a former cast member from "Jersey Shore" who says that show ruined her life. Make sure you tune in. Thank you for watching. Good night.

END