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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Christine O`Donnell; Interview With Penn Jillette; Mean Girls
Aired August 19, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, controversial Tea Partier Christine O`Donnell finally opens up about her infamous witch ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINE O`DONNELL, FORMER SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, DELAWARE: I`m not a witch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then do mean girls become mean women? And are reality shows only making the problem worse? We`ll debate the issue with a "Real Housewife".
Plus, Angelina from MTV`s "Jersey Shore" will explain why she says that reality show ruined her life.
That and more starting right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
E.D. HILL, HLN GUEST HOST: Perhaps no politician outside of President Obama received more attention last year than Tea Party candidate, Christine O`Donnell. Her failed bid for Joe Biden`s senate seat was filled with drama, backstabbing and, yes, one very memorable ad that set the record straight that she is indeed not a witch.
She`s now making headlines again with a new book. It`s called "Troublemaker: Let`s do what it takes to make America great again". Welcome, Christine.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, E.D. Thanks for having me.
HILL: All right. Why "Troublemaker", why did you title it "Troublemaker"?
O`DONNELL: Well, that -- that title actually came from a cover story from "Time" magazine that they ran during the election last year where they dubbed me a "Troublemaker" because I busted up the back room deal that was neatly packaged by the political establishment where this liberal Republican was supposed to easily walk into this U.S. Senate seat.
Perhaps "Time" meant it as an insult, but I took it as a compliment because, you know, my candidacy didn`t create the discontent with the -- within the Delaware voter. It tapped into an already growing discontent. So when they called me the "Troublemaker" for ruining the good old boys club, I thought --
HILL: You`d put it on your lapel?
O`DONNELL: Exactly. I said I like it.
HILL: The Republican establishment certainly made it clear that they thought that you lost the seat for the Republican Party -- and right.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: And that, I mean obviously it was a huge election for both Democrats and Republicans.
O`DONNELL: Right, right.
HILL: And they think you blew it. Is that fair?
O`DONNELL: No, and I debunk that myth in the book. First of all, you can`t rely on political feel, you rely on political science. And if you look at the polling, before the Delaware Republican establishment launched their shameless attack against me, Mike Castle was declining in the polls, I was ahead in the polls. And especially in Delaware with the coveted Independents -- and I say coveted almost tongue-in-cheek because there are almost as many Independent as there are Republicans. I had a 2-1 advantage.
So if we had united after the primary, we could have continued with that edge. Again, I was beating the Democratic candidate according to Rasmussen until the Republicans turned on me. And if you look at the CNN exit polls, Castle would have lost, as well. So he was declining, and I think what we need was the strength of a united party going forward.
HILL: Well, in the book -- and I apologize, I haven`t gotten through it all. But in the book, you know, you make it very clear that you think - - you call him remotely Republican Mike Castle.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: That there really is a huge difference between Republican you and Republican them.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: Do you think that it`s inevitable that the party will split?
O`DONNELL: Well, I think what has to happen going forward, and I put a call out to Karl Rove for us to kiss and make up, is that we have got to unite.
HILL: But can you.
O`DONNELL: And I talk about the cronyism because -- we have to, yes. I talk about the cronyism not to keep this in-fighting going, but to say, look, you guys tried to beat the principles out of us, and it didn`t work. So why doesn`t the cocktail party crowd extend a hand to the grassroots of us, those of us who are toiling in the fields, lend us your resources, and that can be the powerhouse going forward to 2012 that would make what I know Joy wouldn`t want me to say, but -- you know, Barack Obama a one-term presidency.
And if we can do that, if we can unite behind the principles that not only the Republican Party was founded but the constitutional principles on which our country was founded. That`s what we need to do.
And, you know, E.D., if I can just remind the viewers that at the founding of our country, all throughout the Abolitionist movement, they said these extremist who said that we can create independence or end slavery, they were naive and they were unrealistic and we had to compromise with the establishment, and they said absolutely not.
And it is that conviction and that courage and that -- that willingness that created these wonderful breakthroughs.
HILL: Right. But you`re talking about -- there`s the break with the establishment.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: It seems to me that there are just fundamental differences between Tea Party candidates and many other Republican candidates.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: So if you come together, isn`t that sort of copping out and being, you know, being politicians?
O`DONNELL: No because what we`re trying to say --
HILL: Because one of you is going to have to give on what your principles are.
O`DONNELL: Right. Within the Tea Party movement, if you look at the make-up, it`s not just conservatives. It`s not just Republicans. It`s Democrats. It`s Independents. It`s voters. It`s the electorate who is disenfranchised with career politician from both sides of the aisle who have turned Congress into a favor factory.
And that`s what, you know, I wrote the book in such a way where I tried to be real and honest about where I came from and the mistakes that I made. So that the reader might be able to identify and recognize that it`s not about if you`ve ever fallen. It`s about if you get back up again.
And they might be able to say regardless of my party affiliation, I, too, am frustrated with what`s going on in Washington, and I want to get involved.
HILL: Believe me, I understand frustration. I`m one of those people that`s yelling at the TV set when I watch the news at night. You know, what the heck are they doing there? But there are basic philosophical differences. You`re a Democrat, you believe, you know, government can solve a lot of problems. You`re a Republican, you believe, no, people solve the problems. Get out of their way.
So to say that they come together under the Tea Party, you still got people with very different viewpoints on what the role of government should be.
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: So is this simply a frustration? Because if it is, that`s not going to take you that much farther, does it?
O`DONNELL: Right. It`s two things. It is a frustration, and the Tea Party is tapping into that discontent that I talked about. But also the Democrat of today is not the Democrat of Kennedy`s era or the Democrat of, you know, I talk about how in my family we have all kinds of different political affiliations.
But today`s Democrat has a much different view of government, big government is the answer. And I have a whole chapter called the "Freedom Food Chain", where I break down why big government is wrong. And no, not all governments are bad. Our constitution says governments, plural, there is a role for government, but it`s local, and it`s small and limited. And once upon a time, there were small differences between the Democrats of yesteryear and the Republicans of today.
HILL: Well, the Democrat of today, one of the leading Democrats, Harry Reid, says the Tea Party is -- it`s going to pass.
O`DONNELL: Well, that`s what he would like to think because there are even people within the Democratic Party who have chastised him, who have chastised Obama. I heard an audio clip earlier, I believe it was Maxine Waters -- I think that`s who it was -- who was criticizing Barack Obama for saying we need a plan. Three years into your presidency you`re going to give us a plan? A little too late, buddy, and too coincidental timing with your re-election campaign.
HILL: I want to talk about your last election. One of the topics that you discuss quite a bit in the become here, that was the whole witch ad. Bill Maher released clips of you saying on his show that you dabbled in witchcraft. And in the book you say -- you kind of felt betrayed by that.
O`DONNELL: Yes.
HILL: But can you say things like that and not expect that they`re going to come back up?
O`DONNELL: Right. Well, when your political opponent doesn`t have a platform to stand on, they resort to the politics of personal destruction. And I do go into painstaking detail about how I really do regret the way we handled that whole thing. We should have been stronger. And I do believe that that ad was a mistake. I thought so right from the beginning --
HILL: You said you were trying to get in favor with the Republicans.
O`DONNELL: Yes, I was. We needed the strength of a united Republican Party, as I`ve said before. We needed to duplicate what they did in Kentucky where Mitch McConnell was lambasting Rand Paul, but then when Rand Paul won the primary, you see the two of them arm in arm, all that`s behind us. And Mitch McConnell is saying let`s take this guy to the finish line. And that`s what happened.
HILL: Why didn`t they do that with you. Why do you think that didn`t happen?
O`DONNELL: I think egos were bruised. And I think for a very long time there`s been a corrupt political establishment especially in Delaware. And what we did was like I said, I didn`t create the discontent. I gave a voice to it. And I propelled it forward. And we cracked open that corruption.
And as a matter of fact, all of those leaders have been ousted. And they`re trying to attack the book right now. It`s kind of funny because, you know, they`re doing the same -- they`re acting in the same desperate way they did right before the primary when they filed these false claims against me, which have been dismissed. And they`re trying to do the same thing right now. And I think that`s what it is. Bruised egos.
HILL: I want to talk more about the book called "Troublemaker". More of Christine O`Donnell in just a minute.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: I`m back with former Delaware Senate candidate Christine O`Donnell. And she`s got a new book out called "Troublemaker".
You know, there are so many strong women who are in politics right now. I want to get your opinion on -- the way some of them are treated.
Michele Bachmann recently made a statement about Elvis`s birthday. It`s a great day. But it turned out that it was the anniversary of his death.
CHRISTINE O`DONNELL, AUTHOR, "TROUBLEMAKER": Right.
HILL: And everyone has really come down on her for making that mistake. Your reaction -- is -- is some this just sexism, or is it -- is it fair?
O`DONNELL: Well, it was a gaffe. There`s -- there is no denying it`s a gaffe. But however, it seems that Barack Obama and Biden have a free pass on gaffes that they made. On -- on TroublemakerBook.com, we have a whole list of the -- of the whoppers that Obama has made. And -- and there`s a -- I`m sure a room in the library of Congress to house the volumes of gaffes that Biden has made. But they don`t get as much play.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Well they don`t -- they also aren`t presented as stupid.
O`DONNELL: Exactly.
HILL: When women say it, it --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Exactly.
HILL: -- there`s late night talk show hosts kind of doing the thing - - what a ditz.
O`DONNELL: Right. Right. I mean, there is a double standard whether it`s -- you know, in the 2008 Democratic primary when it was all about the -- the foreign policy that Barack Obama said but the yellow jacket that Hillary Clinton wore, all the way to Michele Bachmann`s migraines.
I mean you know, I said it on another show last night about how -- would anyone have ever asked Barack Obama or Joe Biden, you know, oh, come on, Barack, you`re a young viral guy, how are you going to control that libido? You know, we want to know, it`s the same thing --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: We really be don`t -- I don`t think so. I`m just speaking for the rest of America, here, no TMI.
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: There is the -- I mean, but -- but come on --
HILL: Right.
O`DONNELL: -- to say that Michele Bachmann has migraines --
HILL: Right.
O`DONNELL: -- how is she going to handle that in the Oval Office. Well, how this young strapping guy going to handle the temptations of interns in the Oval Office.
HILL: Yes.
O`DONNELL: It`s a double standard for sure.
HILL: Well, let me ask you about another part in the book. Because I love "The View" and of course I`m filling in for Joy.
O`DONNELL: Right. Right.
HILL: Who got hitched --
O`DONNELL: Good for her.
HILL: Yes.
O`DONNELL: Congratulations Joy.
HILL: Can you believe that? So I`m hoping that she`s enjoying herself.
But there`s a part in the book here where you need -- talking about going in and having a discussion with Barbara Walters and you say --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Yes.
HILL: -- you know, the interview went so well they drew up a proposed contract but ultimately the job went to Lisa Ling.
O`DONNELL: Yes.
HILL: And so we called over to "The View," and Barbara said, well, I don`t remember meeting her. What happened? What happened there?
O`DONNELL: Well, you can check with Bill Getty. I mean, it`s true. We did meet, we had the interview and -- but I guess they just chose to go in a different direction. But like I said, I was ok with it because I do believe that not all opportunities are good opportunity.
And -- and when this -- when -- when we were going in that direction and I was going to go up and tape the show, I -- I actually prayed about it. And I was like, you know, is this what I should do next. And when I got the phone call the very next day I just considered it as -- as a -- move in the right direction.
HILL: So you went on and did the show with --
O`DONNELL: No, no, no. We ended up not going in that direction.
HILL: Ok.
O`DONNELL: Yes.
HILL: So -- in terms of your run and the Tea Party Movement in general, do you think that -- that you`re accomplishing something other than, you know, kicking up a lot of dust? I mean are you really making a difference in the dialogue in Washington? I mean is it worth it?
O`DONNELL: Absolutely. And -- and for a couple things. First of all, the reason why it`s worth it is our deficit and our debt is out of control. We owe so much money to China, and -- and it is unrealistic to continue on the course that we are. We have the IMF calling for the dollar to no longer be the reserve currency. Having the dollar as the reserve currency is not just, you know, this -- this cool thing, it`s not just a trophy, it actually has a major impact on our economy.
If that happens, if we continue to be the economic laughingstock of the world, America is doomed. So --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Without a lot of Tea Party candidates in there, they -- they won, but has it changed --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Yes -- but it has because in the past we would simply increase the debt ceiling without a blink of an eye. We would accept these Band-Aid solutions. But now there was a very long discussion about a balanced budget amendment, which to me, to most people, is a logical solution.
HILL: But discussion and you know, something concrete are worlds apart.
O`DONNELL: You have to keep battering at the door in order to get changes. It doesn`t happen overnight. And the fact that we were able to bring this common sense solution to the table, I see as a -- as a badge of honor. As an encouragement to continue to move forward.
HILL: The Republican Party would say, the establishment, and you always say -- you say this sort of dripping with sarcasm but --
O`DONNELL: Right.
HILL: But the establishment would say you`re ruining it for the party. That -- that you will ensure that -- that Democrats remain in office because you are dividing the party. Do you think that the -- that the party is eventually going to come around to the Tea Party, and adopt more the Tea Party philosophy? Or do you think that there is common ground that you all can work out?
O`DONNELL: I think there is common ground. And you also have to ask are you in it for what`s good of the party or are you in it for what`s good of the country? Who are you serving? Are you serving the party elite and the party power, or are you serving your constituents? And we have to --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: But you`ve got to get elected. And it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Yes.
HILL: -- basically a two-party system.
O`DONNELL: But -- but it`s the people -- it`s the people who elect you. And we have to remember that the Republicans once had control of the White House and -- and Congress, and we didn`t address this problem when we had the opportunity. And there were some really good incumbents serving in Congress, you know, shouting from the rooftops, putting out the clarion call saying, guys, we have to address this.
And now we`re finding ourselves, you know, barreling off a cliff and they`re going, you know, it`s your fault, Tea Party. It`s not our fault.
HILL: Right.
O`DONNELL: We`re pointing out that the emperor has no clothes. You guys have been in office a long time. You could have done something then.
HILL: So quickly, are you going to run again?
O`DONNELL: I honestly don`t know. You know, right now --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Are you thinking about it?
O`DONNELL: Well, right now what my priority is -- is we started Christine PAC and -- and during the campaign both the former Delaware Republican establishment and an organization called Crew filed false charges against me that actually led to an FBI investigation that I`ve since been completely cleared of. They saw that it was all politically motivated.
HILL: Sounds like you`re --
O`DONNELL: We`re fighting back now. We`re filing a counterclaim for -- what they did was illegal, knowingly filing a false claim. Right now that`s my battle.
HILL: Busy with that.
All right. Thank you very much.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
HILL: Christine O`Donnell`s new book is called "Troublemaker".
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: We had a great time with illusionist Penn Jillette earlier in the week and so we asked him back for more to talk about his new book. It`s called "God, No: signs you may already be an atheist and other magical tales".
Tell me, why did you write this book? It doesn`t seem to have a real theme that runs through other than you just talk about experiences in your life.
PENN JILLETTE, ILLUSIONIST: Well, you know, there`s -- if -- I`ve been a -- an atheist, an out of the closet atheist as it were since I was child, since I was about 16 or 17. And there are a lot of books. If you want a brilliant book on atheism, you know, Dawkins has all those books. Hitchens has those books, Harris, Dennet; those guys have written wonderful things.
But there isn`t really a book that`s really good natured toward religion. You know, one of the things I fell in love with was proselytizers. I loved Jehovah Witnesses, I love Evangelical Christians because I believed so strongly in the marketplace of ideas. I believed that keeping our opinions to ourselves and just saying you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe is not what the USA is supposed to be about.
HILL: Is that part of what you tried to do with this --
JILLETTE: Absolutely. I just wanted to tell people --
HILL: Convert people to --
JILLETTE: -- what it`s like to live the way I live. I`m very happy with people praying for me and giving me Bibles and doing all that.
HILL: Like your dad?
JILLETTE: You know my dad was convinced that I was a really good Christian who just didn`t happen to believe in God. And my dad would say - - I was very close to my parents, very close, as close as anyone`s ever been. And my dad would say, you know, it`s going to be hard when I get to heaven to convince them to let you and your mother in, but I`m going to do it. And I will tell you if there is a heaven, my dad will do it.
HILL: See, now that is because he loved you so much.
JILLETTE: So much. He never got that memo that dad`s love is supposed to be unconditional -- or is supposed to conditional.
HILL: Unconditional.
JILLETTE: Absolutely.
HILL: And you write about that with your sister also where there`s this unconditional love. And from what I understand, part of the beef you have with people who are religious is that, you know, it`s not -- you can`t see God. You can`t talk to god. You can`t touch God. But it`s the same thing with love. Yet, you believe in love, absolutely.
JILLETTE: Well, Tim Minchin has a wonderful comment on this. He says "love without evidence is stalking". And I believe that that`s --
HILL: Your sister is a stalker?
JILLETTE: That sums up -- no, no, there`s evidence of that. What I`m saying is there`s evidence that I love my sister and she loves me. And you can prove that. You know, the story I tell in the book is a story about -- still makes me cry and my sister died a few years ago.
HILL: Yes.
JILLETTE: She was much older than I, she was 23 years older than me. We were very close. She was more like a secondary parent to me. And we were talking about the Unabomber. And we were talking about what a difficult decision that would be to turn your brother in.
And my sister sat there, just not understanding. I thought she didn`t understand the news story. I go, he was the Unabomber -- no, no, I know all about that. I just don`t understand why it was a hard decision. And I said, it`s a hard decision because it`s his brother. He doesn`t -- she said, no, no, I would never turn you in. I would never turn against you no matter what.
And my friends started these scenarios of how about if Penn was going to blow up all of Texas and you knew it and the only way to --
HILL: Well, if you`re going to do that, I`m turning you in.
JILLETTE: Absolutely. And she said, no, there is no condition. And I just sat there and cried. That kind of love showered on somebody. I think that`s the way you turn somebody into an atheist is give them so much love in this life that they don`t need anything else.
HILL: I`m not sure that I agree with that. I will agree that your sister sounds amazing. And that`s --
JILLETTE: Oh, she was the greatest person ever.
HILL: That`s one of my favorite parts this book. Penn`s new book is called "God, No".
JILLETTE: Thanks.
HILL: We`ll be right back.
JILLETTE: You`re good with the bag -- good with the bag.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Welcome back. I`m E.D. Hill, filling in for Joy this week. A lot of questions still about the suicide of Russell Armstrong, the husband of "Real Housewives of Beverly Hills" star Taylor Armstrong. One of the biggest questions being asked is whether the pressure of living life in the reality spotlight was just too much for him. Here to talk about the reality show fast lane is a woman who says being part of the "Jersey Shore" cast ruined her life. Angelina Pivarnick. Welcome.
ANGELINA PIVARNICK, FORMER CAST MEMBER, JERSEY SHORE: Hi.
HILL: Your reaction when you heard about this suicide. A lot of folks have said, look, they`re trying to live a life that really wasn`t their life, and it just built up so much that he couldn`t take it anymore. Does that make any sense?
PIVARNICK: I mean, it`s a crazy life to live, you know. And I mean, it`s got its good points, and it`s got its bad points. And I guess he just couldn`t take it anymore, and he decided to kill himself.
HILL: Apparently they were spending money they didn`t have. They were trying to be somebody, something that they weren`t. And according to his attorney, it just drove them into debt. And he was -- he was very stressed out about that. When you`re on a reality show like that, is there a temptation, or are you pushed to sort of do things and say things and be things that you aren`t?
PIVARNICK: Well, you really have to always like look your best, everyone`s taking pictures of you. You`re famous, you know? It`s different from just living that normal life now, you know? And I guess that that`s what they did. They just went out and spent money that they couldn`t spend. And, you know, before they knew it, they were over their heads with things. That`s just sometimes what happens when you`re in this world.
HILL: But it`s a reality show, it`s supposed to show what you really do. Do you think that you were portrayed --
PIVARNICK: I was not portrayed like who I really am. You know, when you put cameras in front of you, sometimes you get a little nervous or you`re not really being your full self. But I know that I was not portrayed the person that I really am.
HILL: So what`s the difference between how people viewed you on reality TV and who you really are?
PIVARNICK: I am a really outgoing, fun girl. I get along with mostly everyone. I really don`t like to fight too much. I mean, if I fight, I fight. But I love to just have a good time, you know. And on the show, I was just portrayed as just the villain and the girl that fought with everyone and the drama queen.
HILL: So what was that?
PIVARNICK: I have no idea, you know, they all ganged up on me, and it just doesn`t make sense to me. There were things they did wrong, and there were things that I did wrong. So I mean, we were both -- both parties were wrong, you know, at some points.
But I`m a human, and we all make mistakes. And they make mistakes. And I was the one that was basically just pushed to the limit, just to -- I don`t know. I guess like I just couldn`t take it anymore, you know. And I just hated the way I was being treated. And, you know, look what Mike did. The Situation. He put a tampon under my pillow. I mean, who does that, you know what I mean? That is a disgrace for females all around the world. You don`t do something like that.
HILL: Do you think that being on that show has made -- if you`re looking for the silver lining in this, has it made you a better person?
PIVARNICK: I think it`s made me a better person because I actually -- I know who I am. And if people hate on me, I am still living my life, and I`m having a fun time doing it. I`m not going to let anybody get me down.
HILL: When we take a look at the other cast members on "Jersey Shore," are they really like that or are they coming across as perhaps nicer than they are?
PIVARNICK: I think -- it`s funny that you asked that. It`s weird. It`s like some of them are portrayed the way that they are, and most of them are just being fake on camera.
HILL: Like who? Who`s fake? You`re not on there anymore, you couldn`t care less.
PIVARNICK: Mike is fake. He`s fake. You know, he`s just a fake person. And a couple of the other ones are fake, too. I don`t even -- listen, my life with that is kind of like -- it`s done. And I want to be the better person and not really talk about them like that, because I`m better than that.
HILL: You`re moving on now. You got a record out.
PIVARNICK: I do. I have a record out, yes.
HILL: What`s it called?
PIVARNICK: It`s called "Gotta Go Out." I`m really excited about it. It`s amazing.
HILL: So you still like the party lifestyle?
PIVARNICK: I do. I mean, I`m a young girl, I`m 25 years old. And I like to go out. And this song is definitely about my life. And it`s basically for females out there, for guys out there that just like to party and have a good time. And like, you just want to go out and just let loose for the night.
HILL: Let me just ask you about something I know is probably painful for you. But I want to ask about it because it goes to the reality show and the pressures and everything else. You have announced that you were pregnant.
PIVARNICK: Yes.
HILL: And you lost the child.
PIVARNICK: Uh-huh.
HILL: Do you think it was that stress of the public spotlight?
PIVARNICK: Yes. I -- I admitted that it was, because, you know, it`s like pressure. It`s very hard to -- like people think it`s all beautiful and it`s all like, you know, like roses and everything, and it`s great. But at the same time, like I said, it has its great times, and it has its downfalls, you know. And I just kept hearing like the media was talking so much negative about me and this and that. And I was just like, I can`t take it. I was very stressed out. And it just happened the way it happened. And I can`t -- I can`t stop what God intended, you know.
HILL: Did the whole way you were portrayed upset your family?
PIVARNICK: It did, actually, you know what, my mom cries all the time when she sees -- because the reruns play now.
HILL: Yes.
PIVARNICK: Because the new season just came out. And she goes, I can`t even watch it anymore, she goes, I have to turn it off. I cry all the time. My sisters cry. It`s ridiculous, because I`m not that person. I`m not that person. I`m a fun girl. I mean, you know, I just -- I can`t even believe it. When I watch it watch myself, I`m like, that`s not me, you know?
HILL: Do you think that the producers -- you know, a villain is always a good thing to have on a show. Do you think that there was perhaps something behind the scenes where they said, OK, you know, why don`t you guys go after this or --
PIVARNICK: You know, I still -- to me, I don`t know. I --
HILL: You question it, I can tell.
PIVARNICK: I question it. I question it. I swear to God I question it, because I don`t know -- it was like I killed one of their family members, the way that they were treating me. It was crazy, you know. And I -- I`ve had the same friends for years, and they look at me and they are like, Ange, you are not like that, you are not like that. You are a fun girl. I`m the life of the party. And I`m just -- I am a sweet girl. I`m a very good friend, too, and I don`t understand why I was portrayed that way.
HILL: Is there anything that you did during the show that you wish you hadn`t?
PIVARNICK: I --
HILL: A situation that you could take back or something you said --
PIVARNICK: I would say that the Sammy and Ronny letter, I really would say that, because I don`t think I should have told Jay Wow and Snooki that I would have -- that I was going to do it with them, because I actually didn`t. If you watched the show, I didn`t have anything to do with the letter personally. But they swear to this day like that I did, which is funny because they wrote it themselves and you could see clearly they were typing it, just those two. And I should have never got involved with that, basically, because it put me in a bad spot and made them all turn on me.
HILL: Do you watch the show yourself? You said your mother doesn`t watch the reruns.
PIVARNICK: No.
HILL: Do you watch the show?
PIVARNICK: No, my mom doesn`t even watch anything. None of my family watch the show anymore. Because we just don`t want to deal with it, you know? And I don`t watch it.
HILL: Do you think there`s a difference in the way they portray the women and the men? Because when I watch one of these clips, the girls are going at it and the guys are just watching it like it`s a ping-pong match. Sitting back and letting them look stupid.
PIVARNICK: It really -- I don`t know. It`s just crazy. The show`s just crazy drama now. And I`m happy I`m not a part of it anymore. I`m doing my own thing now. I moved on. I`m happy with my life. And --
HILL: So would you do a reality show ever again?
PIVARNICK: Yes, actually I`m in the works of that right now.
HILL: You are? What are you doing?
PIVARNICK: My own show. It`s in the works. It`s in development stage right now. I`m really excited about that.
HILL: Is it going to follow you around or --
PIVARNICK: I can`t really discuss that yet, but it`s definitely going to be sexy and drama-filled and -- just -- an amazing type of show that everybody`s going to want to watch.
HILL: And in terms of your personal life, do you -- you still want a baby?
PIVARNICK: Of course. I would be lying if I said I didn`t, you know. I definitely want a kid one day, a baby. That would be great. A husband, like a family, that`s what I want. And, you know, obviously it wasn`t my time yet. And one day hopefully I`ll be blessed with it again. And we`ll move on from there.
HILL: Sounds like you`ve taken a lot of very valuable lessons from --
PIVARNICK: Yes.
HILL: What turned out to be a difficult situation.
PIVARNICK: Definitely difficult. It`s very difficult to be somebody in the reality world. It`s good and bad, you know?
HILL: Angelina, thanks so much for being with us.
PIVARNICK: Thank you.
HILL: Appreciate it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Do mean girls grow up to be mean women? Well, if you watch just about any reality TV show, you`d probably say yes based on how the women go after each other. Now watch, for an example, "The Real Housewives of New Jersey."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously there has to be something else. It`s just not name change and arrested. There has to be something else. Are you stripping?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was arrested --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stripping, prostitution (EXPLETIVE DELETED) 19 times? (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you stupid (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: So the girls that tease, the nasty ones in high school end up being women like that they flip the tables and all that? And here to discuss are Dr. Jill Murray, psychotherapist; and Jill Zarin, co-star of "The Real Housewives of New York City"; and Kate White, author of book, "The Sixes," and editor-in-chief of "Cosmopolitan". Welcome all.
So Jill, I thought you would be taking this in stride. And you`re watching that clip and started going -- ahh.
JILL ZARIN, "THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF NEW YORK CITY": I -- I -- it`s -- it`s embarrassing. I know that`s Teresa, that`s not a proud moment for her. I mean if you ask her, that would not be a proud moment for her.
HILL: Ok, let me ask you about this because that`s sort of the premise of a lot of these shows --
(CROSSTALK)
ZARIN: It is.
HILL: Being mean to each other. So is it -- if it`s embarrassing then why do we do it?
ZARIN: You know, you`d have to ask her why she did that. The emotions get to you. It does. The emotions get to you when -- when you`re in one of those scenes.
But a lot of these things on these reality shows, they`re not staged, but -- like I wouldn`t be friends with some of the girls on my show had I not been cast on a -- on a reality show and we have to sort of travel together or be together. And what really happens between us is real but you know, mean girls -- I mean, I just wouldn`t be friends with them.
So there wouldn`t be any meanness. It`s just sort of when you`re thrown together these things happened.
HILL: So Dr. Jill, is there something about the situation you`re in where these sort of things just kind of build on -- on themselves?
DR. JILL MURRAY, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I just don`t think that there is a situation in the world where women need to be mean to other women. I think that just with any situation in any relationship, it`s not ok to say "she made me do it," "he made me do it," it`s just not acceptable. There`s other alternatives.
ZARIN: Well, I don`t know if you`re a mother or not, but my daughter`s mean to me. I mean what can I tell you? And I`ve got a teenage daughter who is mean to me all the time. What kind of -- I mean that`s the reality of life. I mean it would be nice for me to say nobody should be mean to each other but --
HILL: But moms -- moms and daughters I think we all --
KATE WHITE, AUTHOR, "THE SIXES": That`s reality.
HILL: If you`ve got a teenage daughter, you`ve got a fight with her.
WHITE: Right but --
ZARIN: So I mean, but to make a statement -- I mean, with all due respect to Dr. Jill, but to make a statement that, you know, it shouldn`t happen -- that`s life.
HILL: Kate, you understand this stuff. I mean, you just wrote a great book, "The Sixes", about mean girls.
WHITE: Yes.
HOLMES: And you`re editor-in-chief of a women`s magazine. Do you think this is a new phenomenon or is this just something that we`re focusing on now?
WHITE: When I set out to do this thriller, I just pulled an idea from the air on mean girls to make it provocative. But as I looked into it, I found that there is a prevalence with this. In fact, when I asked "Cosmo" readers in a poll do you think women have gotten meaner, 82 percent said they have.
And I think that in an age of empowerment, when we`ve encouraged women to have their own voices --
(CROSSTALK)
MURRAY: Yes.
WHITE: -- it`s been misinterpreted at times to mean you can screech, you can scream, you can flip a table, you can bitch- slap someone verbally. And I don`t think that`s the most effective way to get what you want.
HILL: Dr. Jill --
(CROSSTALK)
ZARIN: I agree with you. I agree with you.
HILL: Dr. Jill, just let me say -- just something that I sort of observed. I get uncomfortable watching these shows because -- I always think, you know, guys don`t -- they don`t have shows about guys going after themselves like this.
MURRAY: Yes.
HILL: I feel like there`s a bit of sexism here.
MURRAY: Well, "Jersey Shore" -- "Jersey Shore," the guys go after each other.
HILL: Yes but Dr. Jill, is there something about girls --
(CROSSTALK)
MURRAY: Yes.
HILL: -- going after each other that in a sense -- I kind of feel like we`re sort of being used.
MURRAY: I think so, too. It embarrasses me as a woman to watch other women behave this way. I -- I`m hoping that in real life, you know, Kate and Jill don`t have friends that treat them this way.
ZARIN: I know.
MURRAY: It`s horrifying.
WHITE: I really don`t.
MURRAY: Right and so I think that there is this -- this whole genre of women being mean to other women, and it being exciting to watch. I think that there is this whole media perception.
For example, ok, I`m sure Joy Behar gets questions all the time when she`s on "The View". You guys can`t really like each other, right, yes.
I mean when there`s -- these shows where lots of women are on them, there`s always these questions that, oh, I bet you guys don`t really like each other. There`s this idea that women can`t be friendly with each other; that there should always be this meanness, this threatening behavior, that we should be threatened by each other and that we can`t be friends. I think it`s horrible.
WHITE: You know with -- with men -- men don`t make it personal. They don`t attack each other`s kids and their parents.
HILL: That`s such a good point. And they don`t.
WHITE: And often -- and often when guys go at it, the end is a win- win situation. And so often with women, somebody`s got to end up feeling like a stripped car in the end.
ZARIN: Well, "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus", and it couldn`t be a better book to explain that. I mean, you`re right. My husband would never say or act or do things that maybe I would or have and that`s what makes us different.
We are vocal. And we say -- we are opinionated, women in general. We say what we`re thinking. And with the empowerment now which is causing -- you know, your magazine encourages women to voice what they have to say --
HILL: Is it empowering or, as my father would say, verbal diarrhea?
(CROSSTALK)
WHITE: I think empowerment run amok is what it is. Because I think at some point you have to realize it`s one thing to be heard and another thing to be heard effectively. And if you want to take charge and take control of situations and -- and have success career-wise, you don`t have to act that way. You really don`t.
ZARIN: Well, TV is sensationalism. Nobody wants to watch you getting a manicure and being polite. Let`s be honest.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: That`s true and it`s entertainment.
ZARIN: And if you want to watch shows like that, then watch "National Geographic" and "Pawn Stars."
WHITE: But Jill, do the producers encourage that sort of thing?
ZARIN: Well, I think a show to the extreme would be like "The Bad Girls Club."
HILL: Yes.
ZARIN: And that is -- I mean, even I was horrified by that -- even "Jersey Shore". I mean, there are shows that you say there`s no way anybody is going to watch this, it`s so horrible, and then, they get an 8.2 rating, and it`s the number one show and the cast is making a $1 million an episode.
HILL: So that`s right and we`re going to take a quick break. And I want to --
(CROSSTALK)
ZARIN: You bet it does, you bet it does.
HILL: -- I want to ask you what they tell you that we don`t see. What we don`t hear.
ZARIN: Behind the scenes.
HILL: Stay right there. We`ll continue in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: Welcome back. We are rejoined by the panel. Talking about girls and what better example of that than the girls on "Jersey Shore", those mean girls. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re the biggest (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here, and I`m staying whether you like it or not.
SNOOKI, JERSEY SHORE: You are (EXPLETIVE DELETED) slutty (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. I`m not --
SNOOKI: You don`t care about anyone else but yourself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew coming into this house that there was unfinished drama between Sammy and the girls.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I don`t understand how you even have friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: First off, if I`m their mother, they are getting their mouths washed out so fast, I can`t even tell you. That`s the number-one thing.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: My goodness, it just drives me -- the hair on my arms --
ZARIN: I would kill my daughter. I would pull her by her hair. I would kill my daughter. I mean she just would never would -- it would never happen.
HILL: We`re rejoined Jill Zarin and also Dr. Jill Murray is joining us. She has been talking about mean girls. And you were mentioning that you think -- we saw it in that clip -- that girls act this way.
The guys, you see them just sitting there like it`s a tennis match going back and forth. It looks like they`re just enjoying this. Kind of sick, isn`t it?
MURRAY: Guys are digging this. It`s like throwing a couple of girls in wet T-shirts in a mud pit and asking them to wrestle, you know. They`re loving this.
(CROSSTALK)
MURRAY: Right. But they`re also horrified by it. There`s a real difference between being assertive, which I think what Kate`s magazine is promoting for women, and being aggressive. Aggressive is -- is horrible behavior. And when we show teenage girls and girls in their 20s this kind of drama, this kind of stuff as being glamorous and being acceptable, they grow up to be mean women.
ZARIN: I want to add also there`s alcohol involved here. Has anyone noticed the trend -- whether it`s "Jersey Shore", "Bad Girls", even "The Housewives", when alcohol is involved, a lot of their behavior changes.
MURRAY: It really does.
ZARIN: More binge drinking.
HILL: Kate. Let me ask you about that. In Cosmo, what do you -- is this something that is really the norm, the new norm? Or is it something that`s always been there?
WHITE: I think unfortunately our readers watch shows like this because it`s the train wreck aspects of it. They don`t emulate it, but they watch, it drives the ratings and it creates this vicious cycle.
You know, what we encourage our readers to do is be assertive but know you judge situations and sometimes you use what Elizabeth Dole used to call sugar lips because it`s far more effective to getting the job done.
HILL: OK. Jill -- I want to ask you, do the producers ever tell you not mean enough, be meaner?
ZARIN: Never. Absolutely not.
HILL: In the back of your mind, though, when you`re thinking the meaner I am, the nastier this gets, the higher the ratings will go, do you think --
ZARIN: No, I could say at the reunion there were certain things that I did that I knew would get effect. When I rubbed Kelly`s feet, for example, and I was simulating what Ramona had done in a scene. When I had an own moment, I knew that would get something. But it was never -- it`s never mean.
HILL: All right. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me. Appreciate it.
You can see Jill Zarin in Atlanta on October 15th as part of the "Housewives" tour. Tickets go on sale on Friday.
And thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
