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Missing in Aruba; Chaz Bono`s Journey; Guests Discuss Growing up Transgender

Aired August 22, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, while Aruban authorities hold Gary Giordano in the disappearance of Robyn Gardner, an explosive new eyewitness account emerges. One person reportedly saw Giordano walking around with Gardner at the time when they were allegedly snorkeling. Could this be a break in the case?

Plus Chaz Bono discusses his journey from woman to man, his Emmy nomination and the increasing role of transgendered people in America.

That and more starting right now.

DON LEMON, HLN GUEST HOST: Good evening, everybody. I`m Don Lemon sitting in for Joy.

New developments tonight in the disappearance of American woman Robyn Gardner in Aruba; ABC News is reporting a new witness has come forward to dispute the suspect`s claim that Gardner vanished while snorkeling. The witness says he saw the suspect, Gary Giordano, and Gardner on the beach around 4:00 p.m., and they took off in a car.

Meanwhile, a new search for Robyn was launched today. Here with more on this case are Richard Forester, Robyn Gardner`s boyfriend; Susan Filan, legal analyst and former prosecutor.

But first, I want to go to CNN correspondent Martin Savidge; he`s in Aruba. Martin, according to ABC News, yet Another person has come forward disputing Giordano`s claim that they went snorkeling. How important are all this differing accounts to the case?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, very important, Don. Mainly because this really begins to show that the story that Gary Giordano allegedly has told authority doesn`t add up. And of course, that`s the reason he`s being detained. That`s the reason they were also searching today.

As you point out here, we did talk to authorities about that specific report, and they would not comment. They say that this is an important part of their investigation, and if they get news out there about who may or may not have seen anything as a witness, it could harm their ability to question Gary Giordano and try to, in essence, trip him up in the story that he`s told.

We do know that previous witnesses, of which there are several, have never put the couple in the water. They have seen them in the area of the beach. They have seen them dining at the restaurant there, just in front of the beach. But they`ve never actually seen them snorkeling. And that`s apparently what this latest witness also seems to verify in the case.

As to the search that took place today, it lasted for over six hours. It is only the second search to take place since the initial four days of searching was called off. Unfortunately, today despite the fact that they covered a lot of territory -- about five miles -- they did not find anything. Didn`t find any remains of Robyn Gardner, did not find any evidence, did not find anything that would tell them either where she is currently or what may have happened to her.

It`s really something they had been pinning their hopes on. Something that authorities had told us was based upon information they had gleaned from talking to Gary Giordano and maybe also by tracking him in some ways, his movements. But it did not find anything.

LEMON: Martin, where exactly are they searching? Is this a new place that they`re searching now?

SAVIDGE: This was an area called -- well, it`s the southernmost part of the island about I would say maybe a mile or two from Baby Beach, which is the area where they had been snorkeling.

LEMON: Ok.

SAVIDGE: So it was very close to the proximity. But it`s really just a very difficult landscape. I mean you look at what you`re looking at here, it`s beautiful. Over there, it is desert, it is rocky. It is -- well, it`s just a very rugged, difficult terrain to be searched. They went through it under extremely hot conditions. It was a tough day for the searchers.

LEMON: And as you were speaking there, we could see some of the terrain and it looks like there`s lots of brush, as well.

Martin, at this point, how hopeful are investigators that they will find a body?

SAVIDGE: You know, I think that they are increasingly frustrated by the fact that certainly by now they say if it had been in the water, they would have retrieved a body. That they are certain of; I had that conversation again today. They said everybody who has drowned -- and there have been other people who have drowned in the area -- but everybody has, their body, has come to the surface within a matter of days.

It`s been going on now three weeks, and that has not happened which is why they doubt that if she was in the water she was in the water where Giordano led them to. And that`s also why they`re searching on land. But quite frankly, you could tell they were frustrated.

We`ve been down this road before with Natalee Holloway. Despite massive searches, they never found anything there, as well. It`s a small island but still plenty of places if you really wanted to hide someone.

LEMON: It`s amazing, the same area as Natalee Holloway. Thank you very much Martin Savidge.

Now, I want to bring in Richard Forester, Robyn Gardner`s boyfriend, and legal analyst Susan Filan.

Richard, to you first, it has now been just about three weeks since Robyn was last seen. How are you holding up?

RICHARD FORESTER, ROBYN GARDNER`S BOYFRIEND: I`m just doing the best I can. I have my moments, but I`m just trying to stay strong, stay focused, and keep the word out there that, you know, she`s missing, we need to find her and bring her home.

LEMON: You`ve been in touch with her family. How are they doing?

FORESTER: You know, we are in touch; we`re all very supportive. Obviously, we`re all very sad. But, you know, we keep in touch and try to support each other with everything.

LEMON: And Susan, you know, I mentioned earlier a new witness who says that Gardner and Giordano did not go snorkeling. What else did this guy say that was important to you?

SUSAN FILAN, LEGAL ANALYST: Well, other media sources have reported that a fisherman was out fishing in the water, and he looked back on land, and he saw this couple. And at no time did he ever see them enter the water.

He also reports that two of them got back into a car, which may be why the search is taking place where Martin Savidge said, just a mile away, and not really so much on the beaches as if she had washed up on the shore. I think that`s pretty important information because what it does is it corroborates a suspicion that Giordano is not telling the truth.

LEMON: But you know, people come forward all the time. And you know, we talk about the credibility of a witness. How do you know that this witness is telling the truth? How do they know?

FILAN: Yes. That`s a great question. How do you know anybody`s telling the truth?

LEMON: Right.

FILAN: But you have to look at all the facts and circumstances. What motive does he have to lie? What motive does Giordano have to lie? Giordano has a great motive to lie. He wants to basically make it seem like he`s telling the truth and he`s done nothing wrong. He wants to exculpate himself.

This fisherman allegedly doesn`t have any axe to grind -- not a part of the case -- I mean essentially --

LEMON: Why would he --

FILAN: What does he care? What`s in it for him if he lies?

LEMON: Yes. There`s no reward or that kind of thing unless he has information that finds her alive. That makes a difference.

So Richard, listen, does this guy`s account confirm the belief that you have held all along that Robyn never went snorkeling?

FORESTER: Well, again you know, if it`s credible and, you know, and it`s truth, of course. I from day one have said that she didn`t go snorkeling. I know in my heart she didn`t go snorkeling. And it`s nice to hear somebody else, you know, corroborate that and hopefully it`s another step closer to finding her.

LEMON: Robyn, police launched another search, you and I talked about it a little bit, we talked about it with Martin Savidge. But is it important -- do they have to find a body to charge him?

FILAN: No, no, they don`t. I mean there are plenty of cases where you have a murder charge and no body ever found. What you have to do is you have to look at all the circumstantial evidence.

And what Aruban authorities have said -- and I think it`s a good point -- if she were alive she would certainly have made herself known. She would certainly have come forward. Certainly to her boyfriend because I read another report that they were in communication with each other right before she disappeared essentially promising each other that they would stay in touch. So if she were alive, he would have heard from her.

LEMON: And they`re not necessarily -- they are looking for a body, but they`re looking for other evidence, as well, to pin on this guy.

FILAN: That`s right. They`re trying to find some trace of what happened to her. And I think the disappearance without a trace is evidence in and of itself. Just disappearing like that.

Another point I wanted to make -- and I read this also. She had very, very expensive hair extensions. About $1,000 each time and she got them done twice a year. Women with those kind of hair extensions don`t swim.

LEMON: Don`t swim. Don`t get in the water. As sisters -- as a man with sisters who have hair extensions, they do not like to get them wet because they`re very, very expensive.

FILAN: Right.

LEMON: Richard, you know, there were reports that last week that the suspect had explicit photos of Robyn on his camera. Do you think that she would willingly pose for these kinds of picture?

FORESTER: No, I don`t. I don`t think she would consent to it whatsoever. It was not part of our relationship, and I certainly don`t see her doing that. That`s just not her, her personality, not her MO. If those pictures were taken, they were certainly done without her knowledge.

LEMON: Go ahead.

FILAN: Allegedly, another person came forward, a mother and daughter. And allegedly Giordano had asked the mother and daughter to go on this same trip to Aruba, the tickets that Robyn had with him and when it came -- because he was going to make her a teen model. And when the mother found out that he wanted them all to sleep in the same bed together, the mother said, huh-uh, no, and backed out.

LEMON: That`s not going to happen.

FILAN: So it may have been part of Giordano`s plan all along to do something with explicit photos and he really didn`t know who or cared who, but just wanted somebody in that role.

LEMON: So there are things in this guy`s history that lead you to believe -- that`s circumstantial. Is that enough?

FILAN: One thing isn`t enough. You never have one thing for a case. You have many, many, many, many things, and you put the whole thing like a mosaic. Like building a puzzle, you put the whole piece together. If you have pretty much all the pieces of the puzzle, and you can see it`s a dog but you`re missing the nose or you`re missing the ear, do you then say it`s not a dog?

LEMON: No.

FILAN: Do you need every piece? No.

LEMON: All right. Well, Richard, there`s a tip line for people who have information. What is it?

FORESTER: It`s for the Natalee Holloway Resource Center; it was set up specifically for Robyn. It`s 407 -- pardon, me -- 407-237-2295. There`s also an e-mail, which is nhrc@crimemuseum.com. All of these are anonymous.

They filter them straight through to the FBI. And just, for the record here, you know, the whole mission here is -- is to find Robyn. You know, she`s been missing for nearly three weeks. She`s -- she`s terribly, terribly missed.

And we need to find her. And I keep faith. I keep my optimism open that, you know, that we find her alive, you know. I remain realistic, but you know, until I have some proof of anything just like everything else that`s coming out, there`s nothing I can really speculate on.

So I -- I hope for the best here. And that she`s brought back home to me.

LEMON: I think everyone`s hoping for the same thing. Thank you very much, Richard and thank you, Susan, as well.

FORESTER: Thank you.

LEMON: We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You know, it`s been two years since Chaz Bono started the transition to become a man and only a few months since the release of his book and the premiere of his documentary, "Becoming Chaz". Now since then it seems the country has taken notice of Chaz Bono`s struggle of being a man inside a woman`s body.

And joining me now is Chaz Bono, the author of "Transition", it`s a great book, "The Story of How I Became a Man." Hey, congratulations Chaz on your documentary being nominated for three Emmys. That`s -- that`s wonderful.

CHAZ BONO, AUTHOR, "BECOMING CHAZ": Thank you very much.

LEMON: Yes, you`re welcome. Listen --

(CROSSTALK)

BONO: Thank you, I appreciate it.

LEMON: Do you feel that the documentary and the book that you have shined light on the transgender community?

BONO: I think just starting to, you know, just -- just starting to shine a light on it, yes.

LEMON: Are you a transgender role model do you think?

BONO: I don`t think about that, to be honest. That`s something that other people seem to think about. I just -- I`m just trying to put my experience out there and hope that it resonates with people or enlightens people, and that`s kind of it.

LEMON: All right. Great. Listen, we`re going to talk much more about that. We`re going to go in depth on that subject, as a matter of fact.

But I have to ask you this -- I look at you, I see you on television, you`re a dude now. You have facial hair and everything to go along with it. I mean, do you -- do you like that? Is it cool?

BONO: Of course, I mean, I -- you know, I -- I did this because I felt male inside, and -- and I -- I didn`t look, you know, outwardly how I felt inwardly. And now I do. So life is -- is just so much easier to navigate through.

LEMON: Is that something that you have to get used to, though? Do you have to get used to shaving because you didn`t have to shave before, then all of a sudden you`re a grown man.

BONO: No.

LEMON: And then, you have to shave.

BONO: No. You -- you -- no, it`s pretty easy to pick up, actually.

LEMON: All right. It`s not like learning to drive or anything. Listen --

BONO: Yes.

LEMON: I have to ask you -- you said you were always attracted to facial hair and -- and you adored your mom`s boyfriends who had facial hair.

BONO: Actually, you know that was a -- I got misquoted. It was my grandmother`s boyfriend.

LEMON: Oh, it wasn`t Greg Aleman or anything then?

BONO: No, no, no, no, it was not. It was my -- it was my grandmother`s boyfriend that I was talking about. So --

LEMON: Yes. Look, can we talk about your girlfriend? Because I -- like I said, I see you all over. I saw you on TMZ. And they were actually having a good time with you, and it`s all in good fun saying, "My gosh, Chaz`s girlfriend is hot". And you talked to -- talk to me about Jenny because you`re talking about changing yourself because of the testosterone injections.

So how have you changed since the transition, and how is Jenny coping, dealing with all of that?

BONO: How have I changed emotionally or physical?

LEMON: How have you changed both -- physically and emotionally? We`ll talk about all of it.

BONO: Well, I mean, I think physically it`s fairly apparent. And emotionally, I -- I don`t know. I mean, I just -- I`m probably slightly more confident or -- and a little bit more aggressive. You know, just kind of the -- some of the typical qualities that we espouse to being male. You know, I -- kind of apply to me more now.

LEMON: What do you mean typical qualities? Like you feel more like a guy? Like you -- you want to go out and fix things, you want to watch a ballgame? What do you -- what do you mean by that?

BONO: Well, no, no. I think, again, like I think I`m -- my temper`s a little bit shorter now. I have to -- I have to be really aware of that. I`m not as talkative as I used to be. I`m probably more solution-oriented. You know, though I always was, I`m kind of more -- I`m more -- you know, I`m just more of those thing that I -- that I was.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So you understand now when guys say, honey, I just don`t want to talk about that, why do we have to talk about everything? So, now as a guy, you get it, don`t you?

BONO: I -- I understand a lot, yes. I mean, I think that -- that I understand probably more than most people how certain characteristics that we may espouse to growing kind of cultural is actually more hormonal than we realize.

LEMON: Yes. So has that put a strain on your relationship with Jenny?

BONO: No not at all, not now. I mean, it was an adjustment. And we went through some stuff that -- that I was -- that was difficult for us, and that -- how do I put it? That my reactions changed, the way I would have reacted to the same thing before changed and I think that was sometimes difficult for Jenny.

But now we`re really -- you know, and I`ve been like this for a long time. We`re pretty used to everything.

LEMON: Yes I want to talk about another relationship because you are very close with your mom. How are things between you and Cher?

BONO: You know, fine.

LEMON: Yes?

I -- I -- the reason I ask -- because I`ve -- I`ve watched this -- you a lot throughout the last couple years, as you have been doing the documentary and making this transition and your book and all of that. And I`ve been paying close attention to you. And I notice that Cher is never at a loss for words. She hasn`t been that -- we`ve seen her, but she really hasn`t been that outspoken about this. Why is that?

BONO: I have no idea. That`s something you have to ask her.

LEMON: I mean, could -- you are her -- was her daughter, now her son. I mean, you wouldn`t know why she would not speak so much about it? Usually Cher comes out and talk -- I mean, she calls in to C-Span for God`s sakes. I would just think that she would be more vocal on this issue.

BONO: Again, I don`t -- you know, I don`t know what`s in the woman`s brain. I -- you`d have to really ask her.

LEMON: Yes. Do you guys still talk, though?

BONO: Yes.

LEMON: Yes, ok. All right. But she`s comfortable with all of this?

BONO: I think it`s a process that -- that takes, you know, parents a long time to get comfortable with.

LEMON: Ok. Chaz, we`re going to talk now a little bit about the process of becoming a man. We`re going to do that after the break. More with Chaz Bono in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. I`m back now with Chaz Bono. And we`re talking about his transition to becoming a man. So Chaz, sometimes I know that these things are uncomfortable but you have been pretty straightforward about them. You had surgery to remove your breasts. Any plans to have the other surgery?

BONO: To have bottom surgery.

LEMON: Yes.

BONO: You know, probably, it`s something I`d like to do at some point. But it`s a significant surgery. And so it`s not something that I`m going to rush into lightly.

LEMON: So legally then, are -- you are a man? Are you a man?

BONO: Yes, I`m legally a male.

LEMON: On your driver`s license it says that you`re a male, right?

BONO: Yes, uh-huh.

LEMON: When were you defined as a man?

BONO: I -- after I had my surgery, I had to, you know, do paperwork and go have a hearing with a judge and have an attorney do all that. And then I was able to legally change my name and my gender.

LEMON: So that`s what I think many people don`t understand since you haven`t had what you call the bottom surgery, that you`ve just had your breasts removed --

BONO: Right.

LEMON: People don`t understand, then how is she now a he? How is he legally a man?

BONO: Well, that`s -- that`s what the law is. It`s -- that`s how it`s written. So it`s different state to state, but, you know, if you have an irreversible surgery that, you know, dealing with sexual characteristics, you can legally change your gender.

LEMON: So if you and Jenny want to get married in California, can you?

BONO: Of course.

LEMON: You can? All right. All right. So listen, you`ve had the surgery, the hormone injection, all of that stuff. And people -- transgender people struggle with being accepted. What can you tell our viewers about that? Because a lot of people don`t understand -- I know that a lot of people who are making the transition from male to female will get injections and those sorts of things. Talk to us about the struggle to deal with that and how tough it is.

BONO: To deal with getting hormone injections?

LEMON: Getting the hormone injections and all of those things, yes.

BONO: Well, I mean, you know, it can be difficult, A, because unfortunately insurance doesn`t -- still doesn`t cover -- very few policies cover anything for transgender care. And some people, you know, are living in areas where they don`t have access to doctors who -- who, you know, who know how to treat transgender patient. So it can be still quite difficult.

LEMON: Uh-huh. And do you have -- I know that in the documentary your mom says that she has trouble with pronouns sometimes. And I have to say even I do as a gay man, I have trouble sometime when I talk to -- when I talk about you or just to people I know who -- who are making the transition, I get the hes and the shes mixed up. Is that a big deal for people who are in transition?

BONO: Yes, of course it is. I mean I think that it can be -- you know, especially -- it can be unsafe in certain settings, too, you know. So it`s an important thing try to get correct. I mean, obviously it takes time. But -- yes, I think that`s something that`s very important to us.

LEMON: Is there a wedding in your future?

BONO: You know, at some point probably but nothing that I`m ready to talk about.

LEMON: All right. Maybe I`ll push you on it a little bit later in the show. We can talk a little bit more about it, Chaz.

Stick around. When we come right back, we`re going to be joined by a few other trailblazers in the transgender community. Don`t go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: As Chaz Bono helps bring transgendered people into the mainstream, more people are asking what is life like for this often overlooked parts of the LGBT community? So with me is Chaz Bono, author of "Transition -- the story of how I became a man." And joining us are other trailblazers in the transgender community, Isis King, fashion model and the first transgender contestant in "America`s Next Top Model," Harmony Santana, a transgender actress in the new movie "Gun Hill Road," and Laverne Cox, transgender actress and producer who starred in her own TV show, VH-1`s "Transform Me." I feel like I`m introducing people as parts of a beauty -- joining me now is Harmony Santana.

I want to speak with Chaz. Chaz, we spoke about your story about accept tan. What has been the most difficult part of the transition for you?

CHAZ BONO, "TRANSITION -- THE STORY OF HOW I BECAME A MAN": Of transitioning?

LEMON: Yes.

BONO: You know, I thought we were here to talk about trans-people in Hollywood. We have three unbelievably beautiful women up there. And we`re talking about transgender 101.

LEMON: People want to know about transgender 101. Not everybody is as informed as the people on this panel. That`s with we have you here. I want to know what`s been the most difficult part of transitioning for you, Chaz?

BONO: There hasn`t been anything difficult about it. For me, the difficult part came before I transitioned, before I had the courage to transition. And once I finally got that strength, you know, my life has just been a tremendous blessing.

LEMON: Yes. OK, so Laverne, you said that you were never a typical boy growing up Alabama. What do you mean by that?

LAVERNE COX, TRANSGENDER ACTRESS/PRODUCER: Gosh, we have really specific rules in society about boys are supposed to act this way and girls are supposed to act a certain way. I never acted the way people thought that boys should act. When I was in third grade, my third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway, called my mom and said that we need to get your son into therapy right away or he`ll end up in New Orleans wearing a dress.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: And you said that that wasn`t -- you probably thought that wasn`t such a bad thing, right?

COX: At the time I thought it would be the worst thing ever for me to end up in New Orleans wearing a dress because I had -- I had learned from the society around me and from my mother and from the therapists and my teachers that being trans was awful and terrible. I internalized a lot of trans-phobia.

And I went to the therapist, and I remember the therapist asking if I knew the difference between a boy and girl. In my infinite wisdom as an eight-year-old, I said, I don`t think there is a difference. Up until that time, everyone of telling me I was a boy, but I always felt like I was a girl inside.

LEMON: You felt like you were a girl inside. A lot of trans-people say that they used to -- when they were a child, they would try to hide it. They felt uncomfortable since they can remember. Harmony, tell me about your story. You said that you felt different since you can remember, as well.

HARMONY SANTANA, TRANSGENDER ACTRESS: Right. Well, for me, when I was little, I didn`t know much about the transgender community. I didn`t know what that was. All I knew is I was gay and that`s wrong. And -- but I always wanted to feel pretty, and I looked up to my older sister because she`s so beautiful to me. And she would go shopping, and I would if with her. And, I don`t know. I always wanted to be pretty.

LEMON: That`s something that we`re going to talk about more because you said that you -- you felt gay or that you were gay?

SANTANA: All I knew was I liked boys, and that was wrong. And I liked heels, and I played around about a t-shirt on my head acting like it was long hair.

LEMON: Not all trans-people identify as gay. We`ll talk about that more. I want to find out about Isis. When you said you felt you were born in the wrong body.

ISIS KING, TRANSGENDER MODEL: Yes. I`ve always felt like she said. I had the t-shirt on my head also. I always played in my mother`s clothes. And I just knew that I was different from everyone else that I had seen in school. And I would at times be jealous when I couldn`t play or do the things with the girls that they were able to do with each other. And I had to be pushed to this image of what a guy should be, and I never felt like that.

LEMON: Hey, Chaz, I want to get back to you and talk about this, because Harmony mentioned, she thought that she was gay. Many trans-people will identify as gay initially, I guess, because they feel that they have to identify as something. But then they don`t really identify as gay once they realize what it is. And you don`t -- you don`t identify as gay, do you, even though initially you said you were a lesbian?

BONO: No, of course not. No. But it`s very easy to confuse when you`re growing up sexual orientation with gender identity. And especially, you know, for people that were older and still there`s so little information that it`s easy. It`s like, you know, puberty hits, and at least for me it was -- I knew I liked women. I had always felt like a boy, but I figured, well, I`m a lesbian, and I guess that`s how lesbians feel.

LEMON: Isis, in high school --

BONO: It took --

LEMON: Go ahead, Chaz. Finish.

BONO: No, I said, it took time to kind of unravel that and understand that they`re two separate issues.

LEMON: OK. Isis, in high school you said you identified as gay. Why?

KING: I lived a life as a -- I guess as a, quote, "gay male" because at that point, I didn`t have any role models as trans. I didn`t even think it would be possible for me to make a big step like that. So living in Maryland where I lived where there were only maybe one or two gay people in school, how could I come out as being trans on top of that when that was such a minority group? So I lived that life, and when I felt comfortable enough and did my research enough, I went and made it happen.

LEMON: Laverne, did you ever identify as gay?

COX: You know, I did think I was. The interesting thing was -- I was thinking about this today -- a lot of the bullying that kids experience as kids really has to do with gender, with people not conforming to a gender role. And we say that it`s gay. Historically we`ve often confused gender identity and sexual orientation. They`re very different things.

So how do we gun really educate people to think of gender in a different way that has nothing to do with what you`re attracted to. Someone recently -- I read someone said being gay is about who you want to go to bed with and being trans is about who you want to go to bed as.

LEMON: And who you want to wake up as.

COX: Exactly. So they`re very different things. In the homophobic and trans-phobic imagination, historically we`ve conflated those things.

LEMON: I want to have an in-depth conversation about that because there is some discussion in the gay community about who should belong in the community, gay, lesbian --

COX: Trans folks have that discussion, too.

LEMON: Let`s talk about your personal story now, Laverne. Once -- once your teacher, your third grade teacher said, oh, your son needs therapy, he`s going to end up in a dress in New Orleans. You thought it was bad then. Now, not so much. What about the acceptance among your family? What happened from them?

COX: The interesting thing is I do want to say that I internalize so much trans-phobia because of that, because of my experiences growing up in Alabama. It wasn`t until I moved to New York and met actual trans people and said, my god, all the misconceptions I had about transgender people were erroneous. I think that`s the journey for people out there who might have confusion about trans folks and getting to know someone.

LEMON: Chaz, talk to us about growing up as a child and knowing that you`re different and sort of how you internalized it. That must be very difficult as a person that feels that they were born to the wrong body.

BONO: It is. It`s incredibly difficult. I mean, it makes kind of every aspects of life difficult. And, you know, I felt -- I didn`t realize how it affected so many things. But I was always uncomfortable until I transitioned.

LEMON: Yes. Did you ever share that -- when I said you came out as lesbian first, but you never shared that with your family, did you, that you thought that you might be born the wrong sex? Or did you just say, "I think that I`m gay"?

BONO: No, I never said that. I mean, I -- you know, I thought that there was something wrong with me. I grew up, I knew about gay and lesbian people, but I didn`t know anything about, you know, transgender people. And so I thought there must be something wrong with me. And it seemed like something I couldn`t talk about at all.

LEMON: Yes. This must be some sort of, as I said, record to have, you know, four transgender people on and a gay man talking on national television about this issue. We must be making history in some way by doing this. Isis, talk to me, seriously though, about being a child, because the trauma of growing up and knowing that you`re different can have repercussions on the rest of your life.

KING: OK. Honestly, I grew up with a strong mother who dealt with a lot of things on her own. She had me when she was 17, so we have a really close bond. That was something that I pretty much kept to myself, kept inward. And I live my life. I think I had a pretty normal childhood. I kept most of those things behind closed doors to myself when everyone was gone. And pretty much I got a full scholarship to college, went away, and that`s why I really started to make decisions for my future and set thing up for how they would be.

LEMON: Uh-huh. And it`s not easy living as a transgender person in America even in 2011 when we think we`re so far advanced because many people, many trans people live in fear of their lives. Also you live in a shelter.

SANTANA: I do. I live in green chimneys, which is a runaway and homeless youth program. I have lived there for about a year and a half now. I became homeless after high school --

LEMON: Which many transgender people become homeless because their families -- their families put them out. They don`t want to accept --

SANTANA: I left on my own sort of thing because I went through so much with my mom`s boyfriend. I was 18, turning 19.

LEMON: On your own, on the street as a trans-woman.

SANTANA: Yes. And I went from friend`s house to friend`s house. And after a while I stayed with my best friend for like about six months. And then he had to move to Florida. So he referred me to the Covenant House, which is a shelter downtown. I stayed there and they referred me to green chimney where I`ve been able to grow as myself, Harmony.

LEMON: How long have you been away from your family?

SANTANA: Since 2009.

LEMON: 2009. OK. We`re going to talk more about the hardships of being a trans-person in America. And also we`re going to talk about this controversy even in the gay community among LGBT community, do transgender people really belong in that community? We`re going to talk about that after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We`re back talking about transgendered people in today`s America with Chaz Bono, the author of "Transition -- the story of how a became a man," transgender fashion model Isis King - you going to give us a pose? There you go. And transgender actress Harmony Santana and actress Ann Laverne Cox. You guys have major movie roles. You`re getting rave reviews for your movie, "Gun Hill Road," right? You were on "America`s next top model"?

KING: And I act too.

LEMON: You act, as well. And you`re the first African-American trans to have her own television show, right?

COX: Yes.

LEMON: You`re getting all of these roles now -- I shouldn`t say that. It`s not like the roles are jumping out of the pot at you. You have to put it in perspective. Do you think that Chaz`s documentary in any way has helped with the roles becoming normal? Will.

KING: I think any time we see transgender people represented in humanized, diverse ways in the media it helps. I worked for "Diddy" three years ago and Chaz`s book came out this year. I know as an doomt when I saw "Becoming Chaz" at Sundance, I was inspired. I. Like something was changing and shifting in society. I know that people out there watching who may be trans or maybe don`t understand what it means to be trans, when they see us on television and see us on films, it makes a difference.

LEMON: Do you -- what do you think -- your movie role is pretty close to who you are, harmony. It`s your life almost, isn`t it?

SANTANA: As far as me not having relationship with my father, which I don`t have for like about six years I haven`t spoken to him, it`s pretty much on point except all the physical stuff that my character goes through, I went through mentally. But I do have a good relationship with my mom.

LEMON: Here`s the interesting thing. You think you`re getting these critical reviews and the film festivals, everyone`s going, oh, my gosh, this Harmony Santana`s great, that you would be living this young, starlet lifestyle. But you`re living in a shelter.

SANTANA: Right.

LEMON: Interesting. And you said you, as well. When you were on "America`s Next Top Model," you were living in a shelter?

KING: They found me in the background of the photo shoot as a homeless -- I was homeless at the time. And yes, I lived in Alley Forney foundation for a year. And it was a great program for me. I got to save a lot of money. It wasn`t like living on the street. And it really helped me to develop -- I got a chance to develop who I was.

LEMON: Yes.

KING: Yes, I was definitely around the time.

LEMON: Chaz, I know that you saw that you don`t think of yourself as a transgender role model. But it has to give you some degree of pride and pleasure to see these young women up here who are succeeding and then some of it coming on the heels of what you`ve done.

BONO: Well, actually, most of these women actually -- you know, came before I did. And yes, it -- you know, I wish that when I was a kid when we were all on TV and in films, you know, then it would have made my life so much easier. And so I`m really proud to be out here so that kids who are realizing that they`re transgender have people to look at and say, OK, you know, maybe I`m going to be OK. Maybe this isn`t the worst thing. Maybe I can have a happy, successful, joyous life.

LEMON: There were three "uh-huhs" as you were saying these women came before me. They were like, yes, we were here.

(LAUGHTER)

Seriously, though. Let`s be honest. Do you feel in some way you were like, hey, we`ve been here. Here comes Chaz, great for Chaz. But we`re here, as well.

COX: The reality, if we`re ever going to have a real revolution in terms of gender, which I love to imagine a gender revolution in this country, it`s not just going to be one or two people. It`s got to be a lot of folks. It`s got to be our whole culture thinking differently about gender, thinking differently about what it means to be a man or woman and defining that for ourselves. And it`s about mass education, it`s about visibility.

I just want to say a little about whether you`re an actor, you`re very lucky to work. It doesn`t necessarily mean that because you`re on TV you`re making all this money.

LEMON: No matter who you are, male, female, trans, gay, straight --

COX: It doesn`t mean you`re making all this money. I`m about to start my fourth movie this year, but it doesn`t mean I`m rich and I`m making all this money.

LEMON: Let`s talk about this whole thing about the LGBT and Q community.

KING: Yes.

LEMON: And there are people -- even you said even transgender people are wondering if they should be at least considered part of the gay community. And there are people in the gay community say, wait a minute, not all identify as gay, why are they part of the community.

KING: It`s not the same thing. In a way, in actuality, we shouldn`t be. However, historically we`re linked and politically we`re linked. Being transgender is about gender identity. Being gay and lesbian is about sexual orientation. Those are two very different things.

But historically, as I`ve stated before, in the trans-phobic and homophobic imagination historically, we can conflate the two. If a man wanted to sleep with another man that made him less of a man. That was that made him a woman somehow. Obviously that`s ridiculous. We know that gay men are super macho now, or can be. So we have to really begin to unlearn all that.

LEMON: We`re going to talk more about that. And also, what do you want the people at home to know about being transgender? Our panel continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back talking about transgender people in today`s America.

OK, so we were talking before about this whole issue of being part of the gay community. And you know the gay -- there`s talk in the gay community about, wait a minute, why are transgender people part of the gay community when many don`t identify as gay? That`s where the focus and the money is. Go ahead, Chaz.

BONO: Let me say, I think there`s a few reasons why, you know, even though there are certain differences of course between -- there`s a huge difference between sexual orientation and gender identity, but, number one and Laverne touched on this earlier, we`re all kind of discriminated against more based on inappropriate gender expression more than actual sexual orientation.

And the other thing is a lot of us spent time in the gay or lesbian community at one time on our road to discovering, you know, that we were transgender. And also, I don`t think a lot of people know this but trans- women were instrumental in the Stonewall riots, which is the birth of the modern gay movement and then kind of got pushed aside.

LEMON: Chaz, you`re right. It was trans-women. It was also drag queens, as we say. It was cross dressers, a whole number of people.

So I want to ask the panel here. You can understand then if you identified as gay or lesbian before you became transgender and then all of a sudden you don`t identify -- you can understand someone in the community going wait a minute, then what`s going on here? Why are you part of our community then this

KING: Lots of folks didn`t identify as gay-lesbian. Everyone`s different.

LEMON: I think that`s a legitimate question, don`t you?

COX: I`ve lived my life this way. But I was never a gay male. I never lived my life as -- I lived that life, but did I ever identify as a gay male? No, because I knew from a little kid that I was different from everyone else. You have to learn about it and find out. It was different when they can look at us on TV and say oh, that`s me versus when we`re little and you don`t see that on TV at all.

LEMON: Well, Chaz, Laverne, Harmony, Isis, thank you all. What a great conversation this was. And congratulations to Chaz, again, on the Emmy nomination. That is great, great news.

BONO: Thank you very much.

LEMON: And I also want to tell you that you can see Harmony in "Gun Hill Road." It`s playing in select cities. And Laverne is appearing in the upcoming films "Carla," "Musical Chairs," and "Grand Street." Wow, busy actress.

Also you can see Isis on "America`s Next Top Model", the all-stars edition. It`s premiering in September on the CW. And again, thanks to everybody for watching. Have a good night.

END