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Joy Behar Page
Cindy and George Anthony Speak Out; Kristin Chenoweth: Standing Tall; Interview With Barry Manilow
Aired September 13, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, part one of Dr. Phil`s stunning sit down with George and Cindy Anthony. Joy questions the "Casey had a seizure" theory. And George says Casey is no longer welcome in his home. Meanwhile, Cindy wants Casey to become a mother again.
Joy has all the details.
Then Emmy and Tony winner Kristin Chenoweth tells Joy how she reconciles her strong support of gay rights with her Christianity and how it`s gotten her into hot water.
Plus for the first time on TV, Joy`s pal, Barry Manilow opens up about his chronic heart disease.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: George and Cindy Anthony speak out for the first time since their daughter, Casey, was acquitted of killing their granddaughter. They appeared on the syndicated TV program, "Dr. Phil" and shared their thoughts on whether Casey was involved in Caylee`s death. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": Do you think Casey was involved in Caylee`s death?
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Well, the last one I saw Caylee with was Casey and we didn`t see her all those days, all those weeks. To me in my mind, that one and one adds up to two. She`s responsible for Caylee; that was her daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now to take an in-depth look at this interview are Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt by Associate" and former O.J. Simpson prosecutor; Steve Helling, staff writer for "People" magazine and author of "Outrage, the Casey Anthony Story"; and Brian Russell, forensic psychologist and attorney.
Ok. Steve, George doesn`t come out and say that Casey killed Caylee but based on that clip, doesn`t it sound like George says he believes that she`s responsible?
STEVE HELLING, AUTHOR, "OUTRAGE: THE CASEY ANTHONY STORY": Absolutely. You know, that was the closest to anybody in this interview today really pointing the finger at Casey and saying, hey, maybe she`s responsible for the death of her daughter. That was probably the most true statement we heard today.
BEHAR: Yes. And then they were asked about the odor from Casey, you know, in the car and they believed Caylee was in the trunk. So let`s take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: Do you believe she was in that trunk?
G. ANTHONY: Some parts of me do believe she was possibly back there. I do.
MCGRAW: Do you?
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know. I know she had to be transported to get to the woods. I don`t know if she was transported in Casey`s car or transported some other way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So it looks like George thinks Caylee was in the trunk. And it sounds like the mother is still in denial. Doesn`t that tell us that he thinks she did it? Steve?
HELLING: It certainly seems that way. It seems that, you know, he believes that she was responsible and he believes she was in that trunk. You know, like he said, one and one equals two.
BEHAR: Right. Brian, let me ask you something. They also said that they sprayed Febreze in the trunk to get rid of the odor -- talking to Brian now -- and I`m wondering. He was a cop. Wouldn`t he know that that particular odor coming out of the trunk was a death odor and trying to cover it up with Febreze? What does that say to you?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think at the time, Joy, neither one of them probably wanted to think that their daughter could be capable of a heinous crime like this.
Now in the present as you watch them, Cindy strikes me as a woman who is trying to find a way to think about this that allows her to preserve her relationship with her daughter going forward. George strikes me now as a father who is trying to find a way to accept what the evidence suggests in reflection likely occurred and what it means about his daughter, his parenting, et cetera.
BEHAR: He seems a little cooler about it and not so much in denial or needing the relationship with his daughter as much as she does. Right?
RUSSELL: You know what`s fascinating to me, Joy, since I was on your show last, you`ve gotten married and congratulations, by the way -- it`s fascinating to me to see the extent to which these two appear to have made peace with each other`s divergent views of their daughter. And clinically we see a gender difference often in this regard whereby a woman will want to emphasize relationship preservation after a crisis where a man will want to emphasize like fairness and justice.
We see it sometimes in cheating spouse situations. And I think why more women forgive cheating husbands to preserve the marriage than men forgive cheating wives.
BEHAR: Trying to keep the family together.
RUSSELL: Correct.
BEHAR: But then Marcia, let me ask you something. Would that kind of statement on the stand have swayed the jury if he had said it and, of course, he didn`t?
MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY ASSOCIATION": No, he didn`t. But he did say other things. And I don`t perceive him as making such a big turn. It seems to me that he has always had the ability to make the equation of one plus one -- something that was apparently way above the capabilities of the jury. But he did indicate in his testimony -- sorry. I`m sorry.
BEHAR: It`s true.
CLARCHENOWETH: Higher math for them.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARCHENOWETH: But I really think that it`s clear to me and was clear to me even during his testimony that he had the feeling that she was involved and that she had done something very wrong.
He tried to avoid saying it. I understand. As a father, you don`t want to do any more damage than you absolutely must and still tell the truth.
But there was also Joy, I think you did hear about this. The bodyguard that was staying with Casey Anthony who was employed by the bail bondsman had said in interviews after the trial in the first days that she was there she would hear George Anthony yelling at Casey, tell me where she is, tell me where she is.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARCHENOWETH: You`ve got to tell me. It struck me that all along he was the one that wasn`t buying -- he not drinking the Kool-Aid and Cindy was --
BEHAR: Right.
CLARCHENOWETH: And I think that there`s been no change and it`s still happening.
As for their marriage and their ability to resolve their disparate views on the matter. I`m not so sure they have. I think time will tell. Let`s give it another year out living with the dissension among the ranks and see how they do.
BEHAR: Well, they do come together on the fact that they didn`t want their daughter to be electrocuted or to go to jail for life. They sort of played it cool in my observation when they were on the stand, Marcia, didn`t they? I mean they didn`t say anything that would really indict the girl.
CLARCHENOWETH: No, no, no, no. They both -- you`re slightly right.
BEHAR: Right. So on that they agree.
CLARCHENOWETH: You`re absolutely right Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARCHENOWETH: Yes, yes. Absolutely true.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, next is a clip of Cindy suggesting that Casey may have had a grand mal seizure -- watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
C. ANTHONY: She had a grand mal seizure after she came home for the very first time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey, what happened? Come on. Back up.
C. ANTHONY: I don`t know why she`s having a seizure. Does she have a brain tumor where the seizure is caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened. That`s what I want to find out down the road.
I`m not making justifications for that but there`s a cause for this. You don`t just have a grand mal seizure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Steve, was that ever brought during the trial because there is no medical evidence to support it, by the way.
HELLING: No, Joy, it wasn`t brought up on trial. And believe me, if that had been a true statement, Jose Baez threw everything he could against the wall to see what stuck.
BEHAR: Right.
HELLING: Believe me, if she had a seizure when she was out of jail, we would have heard about that in the opening statement. For it to come up now it doesn`t make any sense.
BEHAR: Right. Exactly.
Brian, Cindy says that Casey may have had a brain tumor, seizures and -- listen to this -- post-partum schizophrenia. I`ve never heard of that, have you?
RUSSELL: None of this makes any the sense. Again it sounds like she`s grasping for a way to absolve her daughter of criminal responsibility so she can feel good about trying to salvage the relationship.
The seizure explanation makes no sense and here`s why. If you were watching a child in a swimming pool and you had a seizure and you woke up from the seizure and found the child unresponsive in the pool, all of us would immediately call 911 hoping that they could come and resuscitate the child. We wouldn`t be worried about what would happen to us criminally because it would be truly an accident.
The only time you wouldn`t call 911 immediately, to me, is because you might be more worried that what they would find when they came would cause trouble criminally for you. So as I`ve said from the very beginning, I think that all of the evidence indicates to me that she was doing something heinous at the time of this child`s death that could not have been a pure accident, as I see it.
BEHAR: Right. So Marcia, Cindy is just desperate at this point trying to protect her daughter or protect herself from feeling guilty. Something is going on with Cindy here, right?
CLARCHENOWETH: Absolutely, Joy. You`re absolutely right on the money. You know, and I feel for her. I mean who wouldn`t feel that way? You have a daughter; you want to believe in her. You want to try to preserve your marriage as well as your family. You want to preserve some relationship with her.
But you cannot do that and also admit that she murdered her child, if that`s the case and if that`s what the evidence is adding up to. She has to find a way around all of that to try and believe in the innocence of her daughter still.
I get it, psychologically. But we don`t have to do that. Sitting outside and watching her, it becomes very clear that there`s an awful lot of denial going on. And you know, efforts to excuse and explain behavior that don`t make much sense and, of course, that comes from that point of view.
BEHAR: But it`s just a mother trying to defend her child at this point. I mean it`s kind of sad.
But you know, Dr. Phil asked George, who`s a former cop, as I said why bells didn`t go off in his head when he didn`t see Caylee for 31 days. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: I don`t get how you didn`t have bells going off in your head.
G. ANTHONY: I mean I confronted Casey when things didn`t add up in my mind. But then again, if I would have come across heavy-handedly or coming across trying to interrogate my daughter, I probably would have pushed her further and further away from me. And I was trying to repair that relationship to her that I didn`t have for about -- maybe about a year. So I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
G. ANTHONY: -- was I taken for a fool? Absolutely.
MCGRAW: Were you parenting from guilt?
G. ANTHONY: Possibly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Yes. Parenting from guilt.
Also, Brian, I guess he was frightened that -- that Casey would withdraw the child indefinitely from him, too, right? So they sort of were walking on eggs.
RUSSELL: Yes absolutely. I mean look at the loss they were faced -- they were facing the possibility that perhaps their granddaughter was gone forever, if that was the case, and then they were facing the subsequent possibility that their daughter would be gone forever effectively in prison or possibly even facing the death penalty.
So the hope that a parent would have in the face of that that there was a way to think about it that would make it possible that it could all turn out ok, would be a very powerful force in shaping -- shaping your -- your likelihood of how you would think about it.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks to all of you very much. We`ll have much more on this story after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel, Steve Helling and Marcia Clark, talking about the Anthony`s interview with Dr. Phil. Also joining -- joining us is Tanya Reiman, body language expert and the author of "The Yes Factor."
Tanya, you watched the entire interview today?
TANYA REIMAN, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: What`s your overall impression of the Anthonys?
REIMAN: They`re still holding back so much. I mean, you could see it in their overall body language. They don`t want to give any information. They`re still covering their mouths and avoiding eye contacts, all the signals that would let me know there`s still so much hidden.
BEHAR: So there are specific gestures that you were watching for?
REIMAN: Right. One of the main gestures you look for is covering their mouth. Any time you see somebody their mouth or pursing their lips, rolling their lips inward, those are signals that someone doesn`t want to release information.
BEHAR: Right. Right, it`s psychodrama on which I do. They say, what are you trying --
(CROSSTALK)
REIMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: -- to say?
REIMAN: That`s right.
BEHAR: Same idea.
Did he seem cold to you, George or did he seemed in reality or what?
REIMAN: No, he -- he seemed very cold. We saw much more emotion in the trial, which would be expected. But at this point, I -- I really was looking to see a little intimacy between the two of them, a little touching, rubbing of him back.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He was rubbing holding her little hands.
REIMAN: He touched her legs once.
BEHAR: Yes.
REIMAN: And that was really -- I didn`t see much more than that. So I was --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, I -- I give them a pass on that. Because you`re on television with Dr. Phil, he`s interrogating you. So you`re a little bit uptight about doing anything.
REIMAN: Right.
BEHAR: You just, you know, you`re trying to concentrate.
REIMAN: Well, what I saw from her was her leaning into George --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
REIMAN: -- looking for that kind of help me, make me feel better comfort me.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And did he give it?
REIMAN: -- and she didn`t -- she didn`t get much of it? She did get a leg touch, but to me that`s more of a buddy touch. You know compassion is more on the back --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know, he was much stricter.
Marcia, he was much stricter I thought in the interview, you would agree, Tanya.
REIMAN: Right.
BEHAR: With Casey than she was. So maybe he`s a little ticked off with his wife that she was not stricter with the -- with the girl.
CLARK: Right. I really do think that there`s -- there`s friction there because he has one view, she has another.
He`s a different kind of person. He was a cop, don`t forget. He puts the pieces of evidence together, he sees what he sees. There`s a part of him that is dispassionate. He also seems to me to be a less demonstrative person in general.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARK: So he -- he is a more analytical person, I mean, they are just different personalities.
BEHAR: Right.
CLARK: That`s for sure.
BEHAR: Right.
CLARK: But I do see that there is a source of friction here in their different views of what happened with the daughter.
BEHAR: But did they say anything incriminating during the interview, I mean, legally, do you think?
REIMAN: Not really, no.
CLARK: No. They didn`t -- they didn`t get that far, no. I mean, I certainly do agree with the assessment that they we`re holding back. It feels that way to me, just I`m no expert. But listening to what they say and the way they say it, there`s so much left unsaid that you almost hear that louder than what they did say.
But -- but it`s not -- not risen to the point of anything that you could say is incriminating.
BEHAR: Yes.
Steve, you covered this case and the Anthonys for a long time.
HELLING: Right.
BEHAR: Did you see -- they disagree on a lot of things. Isn`t it surprising that they are still together?
HELLING: It is surprising especially because they`ve had marital issues before.
But there`s one thing about the Anthony family, when they feel that they`re being attacked from outside, they kind of circle the wagons and they kind of -- they stick together even if they don`t agree with each other. And we saw that at trial and we saw that today.
I`m not surprised to see it. It`s just I was really hoping for some new revelation that made sense. And it just seemed like more of the same to me.
BEHAR: Well, there`s more coming tomorrow.
HELLING: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean there`s some hints that we`re going -- she`s going to - - we`re going to hear about how Cindy wants her to have another child. So I kind of look forward to hearing what that`s going to be about.
HELLING: Right.
BEHAR: Tanya based on what you saw in this interview and their body language.
REIMAN: Right.
BEHAR: Do you think they are telling the truth?
REIMAN: Telling the truth about --
BEHAR: About what they believe, what they saw? Do they think she`s guilty? All of that stuff?
REIMAN: I think they had moments of honesty and then moments when they were trying to cover things up. And that came from the trial, like the last couple of weeks of the trial, where you suddenly saw that she starts to lie a little bit now and it becomes evident that she`s lying and you see it because she starts doing things that are indicative of lying, like covering her mouth.
BEHAR: Yes.
REIMAN: Blink rate going up, moving in different position.
BEHAR: Yes.
BEHAR: Crouching down and then, even the way you speak, you know, suddenly your voice changes, the pitch goes up, you speak faster.
BEHAR: Yes.
REIMAN: All these signals demonstrated that during the hearing. Now that we`re back in real time, I think that today she was pretty much on the line. She didn`t say what she didn`t want to offer. But what she did say I felt was pretty much honest.
BEHAR: Yes. I wonder if she was lying about whether she thought there was a seizure or this schizophrenia. And all of that.
REIMAN: That`s -- that`s the big deal.
And again, but that could just be a mother trying to cover up, and not even deceptively trying to cover up just not being able to come to terms with what`s going on.
BEHAR: Yes.
Marcia, what do you think? Were they lying?
CLARK: No. You know, I -- that`s really hard to say, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
CLARK: You know it`s clear to me that they`re holding back. I think the mother in particular Cindy is trying not to believe that her daughter was guilty of this and finding every --
BEHAR: So she`s still in denial?
CLARK: I think so. I don`t know that`s she`s necessarily lying outright consciously and George is simply withholding. I think he`s just not saying everything. If you want to call it lying by omission but he`s - - he is not lying -- in a -- in an affirmative way --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No.
CLARK: -- of misleading you. He`s just not saying it all.
BEHAR: But he said more than she did in my opinion.
CLARK: Oh he most definitely did.
BEHAR: Steve, he said a lot more than she did. He is the one who basically thinks, I think that he thinks she did it and he`s part of the -- you know, trying to keep her out of jail, out of the -- you know, getting - - you know the electric chair.
I don`t know what they are using lately.
CLARK: Right.
BEHAR: I keep saying the electric chair, what are these -- lethal injection.
REIMAN: Lethal injection now, yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Ok, thank you, everybody very much.
We`ll be right back.
Next, why Kristin Chenoweth says she has no problem being a pro gay Christian.
A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Coming up tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" HLN`s own dancing queen, Nancy Grace revealing to me brand new secrets behind "Dancing with the Stars". You won`t want to miss this at 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific here on HLN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Kristin Chenoweth may only be 4-feet-11 but she seems really much taller when she stands on top of her Tony and Emmy awards. She`s also standing tall in the face of criticism from her fellow Christians for her public support of gay rights. Her new album is "Some Lessons Learned".
So please welcome everybody, Kristin Chenoweth.
KRISTIN CHENOWETH, SINGER: Thank you, guys.
BEHAR: You`re very popular here.
CHENOWETH: I`ve slept with all of them.
BEHAR: Did you really? Yes. I`ve heard that about you.
CHENOWETH: I`m a wild lady. Not.
BEHAR: Now, this album is a country album --
CHENOWETH: Yes.
BEHAR: -- which is new for you, right?
CHENOWETH: Well, you know, people don`t know me as a country artist and I am new to the genre. But that`s how I grew up singing.
BEHAR: Oh, you did.
CHENOWETH: I finally got to do the one -- I mean I`ve done a lot of the ones I want to do. The Christian record, the Christmas record. The first one was `30s and `40s big band orchestra. And I love that. This is getting back to my roots. And not these.
BEHAR: Where was that? Where did you grow up?
CHENOWETH: Oklahoma.
BEHAR: Oklahoma. I guess that`s country music territory.
CHENOWETH: Totally.
BEHAR: Big time right?
CHENOWETH: Yes. Totally.
BEHAR: Ok. So we also -- we have a clip of you performing a song from the album.
CHENOWETH: Fantastic.
BEHAR: Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(KRISTIN CHENOWETH`S MUSIC VIDEO)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Look at you, you sexy little thing, you, lying there all sexy like that.
CHENOWETH: It takes a village.
BEHAR: I`m telling you. What`s this song about I want somebody, bitch about. What`s that mean, bitch about?
CHENOWETH: I want somebody I can bitch about.
BEHAR: Oh, that I can bitch about.
CHENOWETH: Don`t you?
BEHAR: Yes.
CHENOWETH: That`s why you got married.
BEHAR: Well, I have somebody now. Yes.
We also -- you have another song, "What would Dolly Do"?
CHENOWETH: Yes.
BEHAR: It says, "What would Dolly do - WW Double D". I`m assuming that Dolly`s boobs inspired this, Dolly Parton`s boobs? Right?
CHENOWETH: Yes. Because she is my favorite singer. I don`t know how she feels about it. But I kind of approached the record -- this album, what would she do because you know, I was born but not yesterday. I`m not a spring chicken. I`ve lived a little bit more than some of the younger country artists.
But I also had a lot to say. I thought, how would she handle heartbreak, what would Dolly do? Why am I not writing that song, WW Double D?
BEHAR: I see. You could play her, you know, at some point.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: You`d have to get gigantic implants.
CHENOWETH: There would be a couple things I`m missing. I could take care of that.
BEHAR: But you`d tip over. I mean really. It would be scary.
Somebody told me you have some sort of illness that causes vertigo.
CHENOWETH: I`m so glad you`re bringing this up. I want to bring more information and knowledge about this disease. It`s called Meniere`s Disease.
BEHAR: Meniere`s. Yes.
CHENOWETH: You`ve heard of it.
BEHAR: I`ve had Meniere with fillet of sole. I know that. Fillet of Sole au la Meniere. You`ve never had that?
CHENOWETH: I`m going to go tonight. It`s an inner ear infection that causes vertigo. So when I stand -- usually I wake up with it and I have bouts of it. It`s really frustrating to have and it also causes hearing loss which I have a little in my right ear. The next time you see me, I may be wearing a hearing aid. Whatever it takes, it`s frustrating as a singer, as an actor if you go on Broadway and it`s sort of the off kilter.
BEHAR: Well, you have to fight that. And you do very well considering you have this Meniere`s Disease.
CHENOWETH: Dela sole.
BEHAR: Dela sole. Ok.
We`re going to take a break but when we come back, I want to talk to you about being a pro gay Christian and how much trouble that`s causing you.
CHENOWETH: Ok.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with actress Kristin Chenoweth who is up for an Emmy this Sunday for her performance in "Glee" playing an alcoholic floozy, which is not an easy part for a Christian girl.
CHENOWETH: I don`t know why they thought of me, I have no idea.
BEHAR: Are there -- are there rules against playing an alcoholic floozy girl when you`re a Christian girl?
CHENOWETH: You know, I played a prostitute, an alcoholic floozy, a terrible waitress -- that I am -- lots of different characters. But you know, I`m an actor.
BEHAR: You`re an actor. That`s right. But you don`t get any flak for any of that. The Christian community gets it, that it`s an acting job, right?
CHENOWETH: Not always.
BEHAR: They don`t?
CHENOWETH: Not always. I mean, what`s that parent television, I`m against all the bad shows?
BEHAR: Parents Television Council?
CHENOWETH: Them. They hate -- they don`t hate -- they had a lot of hard times with "Glee" and you know, the gay characters and stuff.
BEHAR: What do you want to tell them? Tell them now.
CHENOWETH: I just want to say, that if Jesus were alive, what would he be doing? Well, he would probably be accepting and loving people how they`re made. And I always say this and it`s really the truth. If being 4`11 was a sin, what would I do? Well, I could wear heels and I could add a wig.
BEHAR: You mean being short.
CHENOWETH: Yes. I`m 4`11. What would I do if that was a sin? I couldn`t do anything about it because that`s the way God made me. And I do -- make no mistake, I am a Christian and I believe in God, and I don`t believe he makes mistakes. So I don`t believe that being gay is not a sin, and in fact it`s how you`re made.
BEHAR: Well, isn`t the rap that they`re not committing a sin as long as they don`t do anything about it?
CHENOWETH: It`s like not doing anything about being short. What would I do, hide?
BEHAR: Yeah. So you`re gay but you`re not supposed to have any kind of sexual behavior in your life, and yet you can`t even masturbate. What are you supposed to do? Put a gun to your head? What are the alternatives?
CHENOWETH: The thing is that I am a very spiritual person. But I also am -- you know, I`m a sexual being. That`s the way God put us together. I`m not promiscuous. I think that`s a different topic, if that`s what they`re talking about, that is a different topic.
BEHAR: That is a different topic. Again, what is wrong with promiscuity?
CHENOWETH: You tell me, Joy, you tell me.
BEHAR: Well, I just got married so I`m a good Christian girl, too, now.
CHENOWETH: I`m so happy that you`ve come to my way.
BEHAR: I`ve come your way. You know, I grew up Catholic, did you know that?
CHENOWETH: I did know that about you.
BEHAR: Yes. I was confirmed, I`ve been baptized, the whole nine yards. I was smacked around by a nun, I`ve done it all.
CHENOWETH: That had to hurt, man.
BEHAR: Yes. But now, you grew up in Oklahoma`s Bible Belt, which is really interesting. What would your grandma -- there`s a story I heard, what would your grandmother say when you would ask her, why does the Bible hate gays, what would she tell you?
CHENOWETH: Well, I would say to her, my best friend Danny, why, how could he be going to hell? Like how is that possible? He`s a great guy.
BEHAR: Your friend.
CHENOWETH: He, too, was a Christian. And how could that be? And she said, I just eat the Bible -- eat the Bible -- I read the Bible like I eat fish. I take the meat that serves me well, but I don`t choke on a bone.
BEHAR: What the hell does that mean?
CHENOWETH: It`s (inaudible). No. I take the meat that serves me well, but I don`t choke on a bone. In other words, take what you can and learn --
BEHAR: From the Bible.
CHENOWETH: Yes. And you know, also, the Old Testament, a lot of things were like, hey, stone your neighbor if you looked at him with a cross-eye.
BEHAR: Exactly.
CHENOWETH: You just can`t -- you can`t go there. And I know a lot of Christian people would be listening to me right now and have a problem with what I`m saying. And that`s OK, too. I don`t judge them for what they believe, so I don`t want to be judged for what I believe.
BEHAR: Right. They don`t believe every single thing in the Bible, I mean Noah and all those animals on the boat, I don`t think so.
CHENOWETH: Do you think Moses literally went, hey, cockroaches. Come on. And snakes, you come too. I always thought, why did he bring you know, coyotes? Think about this.
BEHAR: Yeah, why did God make--
CHENOWETH: Why did Moses say, hey, cockroaches, hey?
BEHAR: I didn`t know Moses said that. He said that? I think he said part the sea. You mean Noah. Oh, Noah.
CHENOWETH: Well, I need some sleep, Joy. I need some sleep.
BEHAR: I`m wondering why would Moses have roaches in Mount Sinai or wherever he was? Those are usually restricted to Manhattan. But you`re talking about Noah now. Did Noah have roaches on the boat, too?
CHENOWETH: That`s what I`m saying, I mean, do you really think he invited all the animals? Thank you. That`s my point.
BEHAR: Yeah. I know. Who did the pooper scooping, that`s what I want to know about that story.
CHENOWETH: You know, his wives did it.
BEHAR: The wives, Noah`s wives. Probably.
All right, what do you say--
CHENOWETH: So what? Who cares.
BEHAR: Who cares, that`s right. What about these politicians who use Christianity to make their point. That bothers me.
CHENOWETH: You know, there is a reason.
BEHAR: Any religion. Any religion.
CHENOWETH: I agree.
BEHAR: It doesn`t have to be just Christianity. I mean, you can talk about these terrorists who used Islam to kill 3,000 people on 9/11, it`s the same syndrome.
CHENOWETH: I just feel like there is a reason they should be separate. I heard my whole life, separation of church and state.
BEHAR: Right. There`s a lot of mixing of that right now going on I think.
CHENOWETH: It`s a little frightening to me.
BEHAR: It is a little frightening. And you know, you`ve done some anti-gay bullying, some PSAs on that, which I think is very good. Do you think that gay kids are bullied more than straight kids as a rule? Or is it just the usual?
CHENOWETH: I know for a fact, I mean -- I love where I`m from. I just want everyone to know that. I think it`s one of the best states in the union. And there are the best people in--
BEHAR: Which state is it?
CHENOWETH: Oklahoma.
BEHAR: Oklahoma. Yes.
CHENOWETH: But bullying is everywhere. And I grew up seeing kids get bullied. And my friends get bullied for being different, aka gay or whatever it was. Yes. A lot of kids are bullied because of their sexuality, and that breaks my heart, because they`re going to have to -- high school`s hard enough to overcome. Middle school is hard enough to overcome when we get out of it. They say life is what you spend your time getting over because of high school, you know what I mean?
BEHAR: Yes.
CHENOWETH: And I just want everyone to understand that when you`re a kid and you`re out there with, you know, your other peers, how important, how any time you tease someone or say something negative, how that can go to a kid`s heart, and they can take it beyond any -- I have a pretty tough skin. But some people don`t.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s right.
CHENOWETH: And it kills me that someone would -- a child would take their life because of their --
BEHAR: That just happened, I was reading about a whole slew of kids who just committed suicide in Minnesota.
CHENOWETH: Are you serious?
BEHAR: Yes. I`m not saying that she had anything to do with it. It happens to be in Michele Bachmann`s district.
CHENOWETH: Are you kidding?
BEHAR: And they`re very anti-gay in that community there.
CHENOWETH: Haven`t we learned, though, anything, Joy?
BEHAR: I don`t know. The Christian groups over there, the conservative Christian groups say it`s not OK to be gay. So if you`re not OK to be gay, there was something wrong. I mean, I was bullied, but for a different reason. I was nerdy, I realize now -- I didn`t even know it at the time. But you don`t really feel that bad about yourself as somebody saying it`s not OK to be something that you know you are.
CHENOWETH: That you are. And that`s what kills me. You know, it doesn`t matter, like you said, whatever faith you are, we have these rules of how you have to be. And if you`re born a certain way, it`s the truth.
BEHAR: But what about Chaz Bono now? He`s on "Dancing With the Stars," and I understand he`s getting all this hate mail and all these people are furious -- and this guy, Keith Ablow, who is a shrink was on Fox, I was reading this, and he was saying that the children who are watching see -- watch a transgender dance, that they are going to think that they can be transgenders. That is quite a leap.
CHENOWETH: OK. First of all, why are we still having the conversation? That would be -- can you imagine feeling like you`re born in the wrong body?
BEHAR: It can be -- I know that`s got to be very difficult.
CHENOWETH: That has to be very hard in and of itself. Why do we have to persecute and talk badly about, why can`t we just say, OK, this is a person, a man now that has changed into what he feels like he was supposed to be. I can`t imagine how hard that is on his family, on him alone. Why do then we all have to judge it? And he shouldn`t be on "Dancing With the Stars," and that is going to affect my niece or my nephew or my neighbor. No, it`s not. Kids are way more accepting than adults.
BEHAR: Let`s just see if he can dip a girl.
CHENOWETH: You know what, if he doesn`t drop anybody on its head, then he`s a hero.
BEHAR: There you go. But you know, before I go, I don`t have too much time, you have this new sitcom, "Good Christian Belles." Tell me about that.
CHENOWETH: It`s about a group of five women who grew up in the Bible Belt in Dallas, Texas. And it does deal with spirituality and it deals with how they deal with each other, their Christianity, their demons, all the things that go on as human. It shows the human side of Christianity and it does it with a lot of humor. And I am very proud of it.
BEHAR: And it sounds like it`s edgy.
CHENOWETH: It`s very edgy.
BEHAR: Love that.
CHENOWETH: I love it.
BEHAR: Where is it going to -- where are we going to see it?
CHENOWETH: It will be on this fall more than likely. It`s ABC show mid-season, so we`re waiting on our air date. But we`re in the middle of shooting right now. And I`m so excited for the world to see it.
BEHAR: You`re shooting in New York?
CHENOWETH: Shooting in L.A.
BEHAR: Oh, in L.A.
CHENOWETH: Yeah.
BEHAR: Oh, thank you for coming on.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s great to see you, you`re adorable.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: We love you here. Right? Kristin`s new album is called "Some Lessons Learned." And we`ll be right back. Here it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The fabulous Barry Manilow is known for his beautiful songs about matters of the heart. But for more than 15 years, he`s been quietly dealing with matters of his own heart. And today, he`ll be talking about it all for the first time ever on the show.
So please welcome Barry Manilow. I know that you have an issue with the heart. But before we get to the medical part of the conversation, I want to talk to you about a couple of things.
First of all, the national anthem was flubbed yet again by Cindy Lauper. It was previously flubbed by Christina Aguilera. We all remember the debacle of the Roseanne Barr day. What is it about the national anthem? It`s very hard to sing.
BARRY MANILOW, SINGER: There`s a high note in that thing. There`s a high note.
BEHAR (singing national anthem)
MANILOW: That`s the one. Why don`t you do it? No, there`s a high note in there. That`s the only part that I found difficult to hit. I used to sing it in school, we all sang it in school. I don`t think I flubbed it, but I got to tell you a secret. They made me lip sync it.
BEHAR: They did? Is that why you never messed it up at halftime?
MANILOW: Maybe. I might have screwed it up --
BEHAR: A confession.
MANILOW: I know, you know, they -- you know, I was prepared to do it live, you know, I was ready, but they said something about they couldn`t get the mike working at all, and they said I had to pre-record it, and that everybody was doing it those years. Diana Ross had done it, and I can`t remember, there was somebody else. And so I lip synced mine, and so I didn`t flub it.
BEHAR: Maybe they should have told this little secret to Cindy Lauper and Christina Aguilera.
MANILOW: I thought they always -- that`s what they told me, that I had to lip sync it.
BEHAR: Christina was singing her little heart out too.
MANILOW: And then what did she do? What, she just blew the words?
BEHAR: She messed up the lyrics, which is also complicated, lyrics.
MANILOW: Well, it is.
BEHAR: Bombs bursting in air is a little bit violent. Isn`t it?
MANILOW: You know, you`re right. I think the national anthem should be "God Bless America."
BEHAR: Yes. Or "My Country Tis of Thee."
MANILOW: That`s pretty wonderful too. But "God Bless America," Irwin Berlin, "God Bless America" is simple and everybody knows it. I think we ought to write a letter to somebody.
BEHAR: I think that people have thought of it and it never catches on. So now your album is called "15 Minutes."
MANILOW: That was mainly one of the reasons because you gave me an opportunity to sing one of the songs there. And the whole thing went -- it really -- it entered at No. 7., no. 1 on the indy chart -- I`m an indy rocker. Watch out!
BEHAR: Look out.
MANILOW: Look out, man. And it just came back on the chart too.
BEHAR: I`m so happy for you.
MANILOW: I`m so thrilled to be able to do an album that is so different than I`ve ever done, and everybody really is loving it. It`s been a great experience. And thanks for the opportunity.
BEHAR: And it has a sort of a theme about 15 minutes of fame and everything.
MANILOW: Of fame.
BEHAR: And you know, I was thinking of that today when they said -- when I was thinking about you coming on the show, and I was thinking about Amy Winehouse, who passed away since we talked about it last time. She -- something happened, they`re not sure exactly what happened. There were no toxicology reports that indicated poison or anything.
MANILOW: That was one everybody thought it had to be drugs, but it wasn`t. Because she was very troubled with this drug thing, and so it made sense that it must have been, but it wasn`t.
BEHAR: But why was she so self-destructive, this girl, not that you know the answer to that?
MANILOW: Do I know?
BEHAR: Of course not.
MANILOW: But I can tell you my experience, is that you know, when fame hit me, I was older than Amy. I was in my -- like 29. When "Mandy" came out, I was 29, 30. And so I was solid. I was a music director before that. I conducted for people. And even when "Mandy" came out, they threw stuff at me. I could have gotten anything I wanted. But I was pretty solid by then. I was not the kind of person that --
BEHAR: The drugs were available.
MANILOW: The drugs were available, anything. Everybody was going out and getting stoned. And all -- I was as square as -- you come from Brooklyn. You know, but I could have done it if I hadn`t been that. So I know what she was being offered. And if you`re, you know--
BEHAR: She comes from a nice Jewish family. Lady Gaga, nice Italian family. She seems better. So I think that it may not have anything to do with the families, it may have to do with the temptations of the industry.
MANILOW: I think so. And you know, Gaga is one of the most talented people I have ever met, and really -- and she just keeps getting more and more talented. Same thing with Amy. Have you seen this duet she was doing, she did with Tony Bennett?
BEHAR: No.
MANILOW: They have a video of--
BEHAR: Amy Winehouse and Tony Bennett?
MANILOW: They did a duet for his duets album, and she`s Billie Holiday.
BEHAR: I left my drugs in San Francisco?
MANILOW: OK.
BEHAR: That`s so wrong of me.
MANILOW: That`s so terrible.
BEHAR: That`s a terrible thing. Anyway, you know what, Elton John has said that as long as an artist puts on a good live show, he`ll always have a great career.
MANILOW: Maybe.
BEHAR: That`s you and Elton.
MANILOW: That could be true. That could be true. You know, when Clive Davis discovered me, I think he said he discovered me because of the performance, not so much of the voice or the piano playing or the writing. He thought -- and I didn`t agree, and frankly, I didn`t even know what I was doing up there. I really didn`t know I was any good. But he spotted that in me. And he`s so brilliant, that he was right.
BEHAR: He was right.
MANILOW: I seem to know how to connect with an audience.
BEHAR: Oh, it`s incredible. You have the best show in Las Vegas.
MANILOW: Thanks.
BEHAR: I mean that. I`ve seen many shows in Las Vegas, except for the Thunder Down Under, those --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Those hunks from Australia. OK.
So now, let`s move on to something you`ve never spoke about in public, which I didn`t know this about you, that you suffer from a chronic heart disease called a-fib.
MANILOW: Right. It`s called atrial fibrillation. I`ve had it for 15 years. And I was told this last couple of months that 2.5 million people have this thing. And when they told me that a lot of these people don`t take care of it, I said, whoa, how can I help? So that`s why I`m here.
It`s -- I`ll tell you in my own terms, it`s -- it feels like your heart is skipping a beat, which seems pretty innocent, you know, your heart skips a beat now and again.
BEHAR: How do you know you`re not in love?
MANILOW: You`re in love or like I`m going to play Carnegie Hall or do an album.
BEHAR: You`re anxious.
MANILOW: Yes. But this thing, your heart starts to go faster and faster and faster and goes way out of rhythm, and then you know it`s not just your heart skipping a beat, something`s screwy.
BEHAR: And you feel it.
MANILOW: Oh, yes, you feel it. Sometimes I look down and I see it. I see this thing going like this.
BEHAR: That`s because you`re too thin, Barry.
MANILOW: Yes, but that`s true, too. That`s true, too. But still, you feel like there`s a fish flopping around in your heart. That is really -- and it`s scary. So what I did, like anybody you think, I went to the doctor, and he puts you on medication, it calms you down. And by the way, it doesn`t end right there, but that`s how it starts.
But what I was nervous about and what I was shocked about is that there`s a lot of people out there that have this thing and they don`t go to the doctor and they don`t take care of it. And if you play around with this thing, you`re playing with fire, because it goes to heart disease, it goes to heart attack, it goes to stroke.
So I`m here to tell you --
BEHAR: Is there a test for it or something?
MANILOW: Yes. Well, these days we`ve got a getbackinrhythm.com. Really, there`s a little Web site--
BEHAR: Getbackinrhythm?
MANILOW: Yes. And there`s a little test on it. And it -- you check out the things on it.
BEHAR: That`s good to know, getbackinrhythm.com.
MANILOW: Because it`s all about your heart not being in rhythm. It`s all over the place. It`s really kind of scary.
BEHAR: OK. When we come back with you, we`re going to talk to your doctor. Who -- he`ll talk more about a-fib when we come back. OK. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANILOW: Hi, I`m Barry Manilow. Rhythm is at the heart of all my songs, but sometimes my heart goes out of rhythm. I have a type of irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, and I thought I knew everything I needed to know about a-fib but I didn`t, like it could cause permanent heart damage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. That was a look at Barry Manilow in a PSA called get back in rhythm. And Barry is still here with me. And we are joined by Dr. Marcus Wharton from Medical University of South Carolina. Hello, Doctor.
DR. MARCUS WHARTON: Hi, Joy, good to be here.
BEHAR: So you know, we didn`t talk about how you stop it. What happens when this thing starts to flutter like that? What do you do?
WHARTON: Several things happen. When it starts going into atrial fibrillation, the upper chamber is rapidly activating, and it causes the lower chambers of the heart to go rapidly, and that`s what causes the symptoms of palpitations. And the things we try to do is slow down the heart rate and then get it back into normal rhythm. And we can use drugs sometimes to get it back into normal rhythm, and if that doesn`t work, then we can correct (ph) it with the paddles.
BEHAR: The paddles, like they see on those medical shows where they--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I thought that was only like when you were dead.
MANILOW: Well, I guess, you know --
WHARTON: That, too.
MANILOW: But for this, they`ve got to stop your heart from going crazy. And for me, I mean, I`ve had this done -- they call it cardioverting (ph).
BEHAR: How many times?
MANILOW: I can`t count how many times this has happened to me.
BEHAR: Where? Do you have to go to the hospital every time?
MANILOW: Any hospital, yes.
BEHAR: What if you`re on the road and what if it happens on stage?
MANILOW: Well, I`ll tell you something, I was doing a big show for the July 4th thing with the Boston Pops, you know that big thing they televised to millions of people. And I woke up that morning and I felt this thing starting, and I called my doctor and he said, OK, just ride it out. And it wouldn`t go away. And he said there`s a really great hospital in Boston that takes care of this, you have to go there right now. Because it was just all over the place. So I went there, and they sedate you so it`s not like you know, you -- and they clear, bang. And they stop it. And then you know, they said goodbye and I kind of staggered out, and I did my show afterwards.
BEHAR: Boy, what a trooper.
(CROSSTALK)
MANILOW: And I opened with "It`s a Miracle."
(LAUGTHER)
BEHAR: How is Barry now?
WHARTON: Well, I`m not involved with Barry`s care.
MANILOW: Well, I`m great -- nobody should worry about me. I`m worried about you, I`m worried about everybody else going through this, going through this, and not taking care of it. It`s really -- you don`t want to -- this is playing with fire. If you feel these things starting like that, you have to go see your doctor.
BEHAR: It`s a serious thing. OK, I really appreciate you two coming on and discussing this, giving this information to people out there, and you guys out there can log on to getbackinrhythm.com to learn more about the risks of a-fib. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody. And thank you, sweetheart.
MANILOW: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: Doctor, thank you.
WHARTON: Thank you.
BEHAR: What about panic attacks?
END
