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Joy Behar Page
Cindy and George Anthony`s Story; Jackie`s Secret Tapes Revealed
Aired September 14, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, part two of Dr. Phil`s explosive interview with Casey Anthony`s parents. George seems unwilling to forgive his daughter. Cindy appears ready to embrace her. Joy wants to know why the parents are so divided and why Cindy is already entertaining the thought of Casey having another child.
Then Joy digs deep into the surprisingly snarky Jackie Kennedy tapes. Will they tarnish the former first lady`s legacy?
Plus best-selling author Jackie Collins weighs in on the audio tapes and also dishes on Lady Gaga and other trend-setting starlets.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: When part one of George and Cindy Anthony`s interview aired on "Dr. Phil", Cindy said Casey had a grand mal seizure and George admitted he believed Caylee may have been in Casey`s trunk.
So what did they reveal in part two of that interview? Well, for starters, George says what he thinks happened to his granddaughter, Caylee. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: I believe that Casey or someone else that she was with possibly gave too much to Caylee, she fell asleep and didn`t wake up. That`s what I feel.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": Gave too much what?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Possibly some kind of drug or something like that.
MCGRAW: You find that speculation offensive?
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Well, it`s the first time I`ve heard it and we`ve been through this for three years and it`s the first time I`ve heard that out of his mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining us to discuss the interview are Linda Kenny-Baden, former member of Casey Anthony`s defense team and an HLN legal contributor; Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist; and Gary Tuchman, CNN national correspondent.
Ok, Gary, let me start with you. I think this -- what we just heard was the bombshell of the interview because isn`t he basically saying Casey killed Caylee? Isn`t that what he said?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that`s certainly what he`s basically saying. I think what`s really interesting about the interview, though is that Cindy is still saying that she believes that her granddaughter drowned.
And what`s really important to point out, and I sat through this trial, there really was no evidence at all that this child drowned. What Jose Baez said in his opening statements was that she drowned. They showed pictures of the swimming pool, the poor little girl, Caylee, swimming in the pool. But there was no evidence of that --
BEHAR: That`s true.
TUCHMAN: And there was absolutely zero evidence that there was a molestation. That`s a whole other issue. And that was interesting, Joy, in that George said, his quote was, "Attacking me was a factor in her getting off." I thought that was very interesting.
BEHAR: Well, yes. We sort of -- I sort of knew that. Didn`t you? We all sort of got that.
But you know Linda, you`re a former member of Casey`s defense team. What do you think about that, that George saying Caylee was drugged?
LINDA KENNEY-BADEN, HLN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there`s no evidence to that. I mean he talked like no one has -- there`s no evidence that she was drugged at all. I mean everyone wants to believe that this was a premeditated first-degree murder except for the jury and a bunch of us who don`t believe that.
You know what, Joy, you know, he really didn`t -- George did not have the gauntlet thrown at him. He did not have the hard questions asked. What happened at 7:30 in that house on June 16th? What happened at noon? What was that phone call at 5:00 to 3:00?
BEHAR: Well, he wasn`t on trial exactly.
KENNEY-BADEN: Well, no, I disagree with you. The whole case is on trial. We all want to find out what happened. That`s why we`re still riveted by this.
BEHAR: Well then, why doesn`t Casey tell us the truth? She`s the only one who knows what happened.
KENNEY-BADEN: Because Casey -- Casey was the one indicted. Why doesn`t George tell the truth? I mean the jury didn`t believe him. The jury thought it was more. I mean we heard about a voice stress test. Did you ever hear anything in the trial about a voice stress test? I didn`t.
BEHAR: This is all outside of the trial. A lot of this stuff is outside the trial.
KENNEY-BADEN: Let`s go outside again. I`ll cross examine George. If he wants to be crossed, I`ll cross examine George.
BEHAR: George is not on trial for anything.
KENNEY-BADEN: Well, obviously the jury thought there was more. Let`s find out what the more is. What happened in the house for the hours they were alone?
BEHAR: Ask Casey. Ask Casey.
KENNEY-BADEN: Ask George, he was there, too.
BEHAR: Why would you believe Casey and not George?
KENNEY-BADEN: Casey was my client. I had a lot of contact with Casey.
BEHAR: Exactly. Thank you.
KENNEY-BADEN: Why would you believe George?
BEHAR: Ok. Jeff, what do you make of Cindy stating she never heard George say that before, that the girl was drugged?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think there are some serious, serious rifts in that relationship and there has been for quite a long time, I believe even before Caylee was found to be missing and eventually found to be dead. I think it really showed in this interview with Dr. Phil.
They never talked to one another saying, well, George says or Cindy says. They refer to each other as "he" and "she". And I see that when I see that in couples counseling. It tells me that they are really drifting apart.
BEHAR: Trouble in paradise.
GARDERE: Of course. And what couple would not drift apart in something like this --
KENNEY-BADEN: Right.
GARDERE: -- where they have divergent views as to what`s going on? And I find it amazing whether Caylee was drugged or not that he would believe that his flesh and blood daughter would do something like that.
KENNEY-BADEN: That`s what got the jury so annoyed that he threw her under the bus. You say Cindy defends her. But also what father always throws his daughter under the bus totally? Isn`t there a mix?
I mean I thought it was interesting yesterday when Cindy said that Casey begged that George not come back into the house after there was a gambling problem. Didn`t that strike you as something funny? What daughter begs for that?
BEHAR: Wait a second. Back up a little bit. Why would he not tell the truth now? The girl got off. And he wants to save his reputation --
KENNEY-BADEN: It`s an unsolved case.
BEHAR: She`s accused him of being a child molester. I think that he was very good in this interview, myself.
KENNEY-BADEN: It`s an unsolved case, isn`t it though? Isn`t it.
GARDERE: And they also accused him of a cover-up. But he`s been thrown under the bus. He`s thrown her under the bus. So, again, this speaks to me of some real family dysfunction. There are some real problems going on here. And I don`t know what`s going to end up happening with this family quite honestly.
BEHAR: Yes. I don`t think they`re going to make it, do you?
Ok. Now, the other thing for George, it could have been a cathartic thing for him too, to just get it out finally. You know?
KENNEY-BADEN: Get it out. He was on the stand I don`t know how many times, about 100 times. I mean I`m just joking here. On the stand and he was always throwing his daughter under the bus from day one.
BEHAR: Not like this.
KENNEY-BADEN: I don`t think that was that cathartic.
BEHAR: He didn`t get up there and say I think she drugged the child and then threw her into the woods. I don`t think so.
Let`s take a look -- again another clip of George. And this time he gets emotional. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: It`s this scenario that Casey had told her defense about Caylee drowning. Why go through all this elaborate stuff to tape her up, to put her in a laundry bag, to put her in a trash bag and bury her in the woods? I can`t comprehend a human doing that, especially your daughter, doing that to my granddaughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, George can come off cold and stoic at times. In this interview -- let me ask Gary -- Gary, did his emotions look real to you?
TUCHMAN: Absolutely. George and Cindy are victims in this. I mean the fact is that the jurors were greatly affected. I know this because I interviewed one of them, by the allegation that George molested his daughter. Not only was there no proof of that, it was never brought up in the trial again. And that`s border line unethical.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
TUCHMAN: It may be completely unethical but it`s borderline unethical. Jose Baez never got admonished for that. And he was very lucky he didn`t get admonished for that.
BEHAR: Linda, do you believe that --
KENNEY-BADEN: Wait, wait, when we start talking about unethical that is ridiculous. He has to go by whatever the clienteles or what he thinks he can prove. If the evidence doesn`t tell him that`s a different story. But to argue a lawyer is unethical, everyone is just still upset that Casey was acquitted because the prosecution, no one wants to realize the prosecution went for the death penalty in a case that wasn`t there.
BEHAR: That`s true. I think people do understand that. But it doesn`t bother you at all that Jose Baez throws out this allegation that the guy molested her? I mean thus defaming him for the rest of life if it`s not true. That doesn`t bother you at all?
KENNEY-BADEN: What bothers me is we still don`t know the truth.
GARDERE: It could be that Joe Baez -- Jose Baez --
BEHAR: We call him Joe.
GARDERE: It is Jose. Jose may, in fact, believe what Casey has told him or maybe he`s made this up with her. But I would tend to think let`s give him the benefit of the doubt that he has given her positive -- that he has given her positive unconditional regard as he should as an attorney, as a psychologist does with a patient.
BEHAR: But do you think he was authentic in the tears? Or do you think those are crocodile tears?
GARDERE: I think they were a bit crocodile tears --
BEHAR: Really?
GARDERE: -- I really do because with as much emotion as he was giving, you didn`t see that many tears. But I also do think -- I agree with you, this is a cathartic experience not just for George, but for Cindy, too. What Dr. Phil is actually going is giving them some therapy and hitting them with some very hard questions.
BEHAR: I thought he was very good. Dr. Phil was very good.
KENNEY-BADEN: I thought Dr. Phil was good but he needs to go more.
(CROSSTALK)
GARDERE: I think that they had never talked about that they need to talk about it now. I think he did a great job.
BEHAR: Before we go, I`m running out of time. Let`s show a clip of Cindy talking about justice for Caylee. This is interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: When that verdict came in and Casey was free, I got my answer that it was an accident. And I believe that justice for Caylee was when her mother walked. I believe that in all my heart because I know the love that those two had. And I know Caylee`s soul would never have rested knowing that her mother has been vilified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So, Gary, what she`s saying, Gary, as long as the jury says she`s not guilty then she`s not guilty. So there`s none of these second thoughts about it, maybe the jury -- maybe the prosecution couldn`t prove their case. Nothing like that. According to Cindy, I mean, she`s not guilty because they said she`s not guilty, right?
TUCHMAN: Listen, like I said, these parents are victims. You can never judge how you will react if something happens to your child.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
TUCHMAN: I will tell you this, that quote I just told you before, when George is attacking me, was a factor in her getting off. He is very different than his wife. Also keep in mind, everyone will agree with this, she was found not guilty. That doesn`t mean she`s innocent. That means there wasn`t proof to find her guilty.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you guys, very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Four months after President Kennedy was assassinated Jackie Kennedy made private tape recordings that she wanted to remain sealed for decades.
This week 17 years after Jackie`s death, her daughter, Caroline, has made them public.
Here to discuss this, are Sally Quinn, columnist for "Washington Post" and editor-in-chief of "On Faith"; and Laurence Leamer, best-selling author of a trilogy of books on the Kennedy`s including "The Kennedy Women", "The Kennedy Men" and "Sons of Camelot". Thanks for coming on the show guys.
LAWRENCE LEAMER, BESTSELLING KENNEDY BIOGRAPHER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Lawrence, my impression of Jackie and I go back to -- to it also you know and this week has been deja vu all over again -- my impression of Jackie is, is that she was a private person. So I`m surprised how candid is -- how candid she is here. Are you surprised?
LEAMER: Well, she was a very sophisticated complicated woman. And you see what we saw on ABC last night was not history. It was the memoir of a grieving widow. Right after the assassination, those two days, she invented the funeral that we all know, the ride on this horse.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
LEAMER: John -- John Jr. saluting, all of these things. And so -- and that weekend she went to Hyannis Port and she told Teddy White, the journalist, that this was Camelot. So this is the same mythic land they were dealing with four months later. It`s a woman who`s still in a great deal of pain.
BEHAR: In pain and a little bit maybe in denial or was -- because she doesn`t talk about Jack`s extramarital affairs or his secret struggle with Addison`s disease. Was she in denial or was she in, you know rewriting or whitewashing? What do you thing, either one of you, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEAMER: I think -- I think -- I think it was both of these things and I think what she was trying to do is create an image of JFK for her children and for America, that we`d remember that part of him.
BEHAR: Yes so -- you don`t think she left it out on purpose?
LEAMER: Well, she wasn`t going to talk about those things. She was a woman -- she would look another -- she would look another way. She wouldn`t look at these things. And she of course she knew they existed and half the time in the White House she wasn`t even there, she was away.
BEHAR: Yes. Sally, what do you think about that?
SALLY QUINN, COLUMNIST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think that -- I don`t think that -- first of all, it was an interview. So the questions weren`t there to be answered.
BEHAR: Oh. True.
QUINN: And so if she had been asked about those issues, she may well have responded. We don`t know about that.
BEHAR: Right.
QUINN: You know, the interesting -- for me the most stunning thing in the whole book is her remarks about Martin Luther King.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: And that he was a total phony and that --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, let`s listen -- let`s listen to the -- to the tape right now.
QUINN: Right.
BEHAR: Thank you.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACQUELINE KENNEDY, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Then he told me of a tape that the FBI had of Martin Luther King when he was here for the Freedom March. He said this with no bitterness or anything, how he was calling up all these girls and arranging for a party of men and women, I mean sort of an orgy in the hotel and everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Martin Luther King?
KENNEDY: Oh yes. At first he said, "Oh will you know and I said, "Oh but Jack, that`s so terrible". I mean, that man is, you know, such a phony. Bobby told me later, I just can`t see a picture of Martin Luther King without thinking of -- you know that man is terrible.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: She has such a conspiratorial little tone to her voice.
LEAMER: Yes.
BEHAR: It drives me crazy to listen to her. Does anyone else have that reaction? It`s really annoying to me.
QUINN: Well, don`t forget this was a long time ago and -- and people talked like that.
BEHAR: My mother didn`t.
QUINN: No, but there were a lot of people, upper class WASPs who talked that way. And it was not unusual for her. And most of her crowd talked that way, too. She obviously had a more whispery tone to her voice than most people did. But -- but that was a way a lot of sort of prep school WASPy, Vassar girls talked.
BEHAR: Really also Marilyn Monroe.
QUINN: Yes.
BEHAR: Marilyn Monroe talked like that also.
QUINN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: But I mean what I think about the Martin Luther King thing was, I mean, we ask, well, how could she possibly have been so judgmental about him when Jack was having the same issues?
BEHAR: Right.
QUINN: But I think, you know, Lawrence is right that that -- that was something that she kind of knew but compartmentalized. She put it out of the way of her -- her daily life because she couldn`t deal with it and so she entered -- so she didn`t deal with it and she repressed it.
I think with King, he was a priest. He was a minister. He was a pastor. And so he was preaching God and goodness and faith and all that kind of thing. And so I think that when she said "phony", I think she might well have meant hypocrite.
BEHAR: Yes.
Well you know, Caroline did say that -- that JFK and Jackie both admired Martin Luther King`s work a lot. So I just want to make -- put that on the record.
QUINN: Yes.
LEAMER: But listen, this is one of these verboten subjects. Let`s face it. The House assassination -- committee on the assassination in the early `70s has thousands of pages of information about Martin Luther King. There are these tapes. I talked to an FBI agent or heard them. All of these years later this should be opened up and we should have a truthful history of our time.
Martin Luther King will stay a great man. But we shouldn`t have this part of our history closed and Jackie has begun to open it up for us.
BEHAR: Ok, it`s true. She also made some catty comments about others. She called Prime Minister, Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi a real prune, a kind of bitter, pushy horrible woman. And his French president Charles De Gaulle she said was a spiteful egomaniac.
You know De Gaulle did march behind the cortege at her husband funeral I`m surprised that she took him on. And she also said that Mrs. Johnson, "Lady Bird", was like a -- a trained hunting dog because she followed LBJ around, taking notes on every little golden word that he said.
Did you expect her to be so snotty? I didn`t.
QUINN: You know Joy, one of the things that -- she wasn`t talking on the record, you have to remember that. I mean, she had no idea or if she did that this would ever be published or if it was published it would be many, many years after Jack`s death and her death.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, it`s --
QUINN: The other thing -- the other thing is, is that you know, people have opinions, just because somebody marches behind a cortege it doesn`t mean that they`re not an egomaniac.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
QUINN: So I think that she was just reflecting her own views on who these people were. The other thing is, that the Kennedys very much like Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, loved gossip. They absolutely loved to gossip.
BEHAR: Well, who doesn`t? We all love it.
QUINN: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: And you know my husband -- I didn`t know Jackie. I met her. But my husband and his wife spent maybe two or three nights a week at the White House and a lot of it was just gossip, this kind of gossipy stuff.
BEHAR: I`ve been to parties at your house and Barbara Walters`. It`s all gossip.
QUINN: But with some serious things.
BEHAR: Ok. Next segment we`re going to find out why Jacqueline Bouvier hated the French. Who knew.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the just released Jackie Kennedy tapes. Jackie blasted the French. Let`s listen to this. It`s interesting.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KENNEDY: I loathe the French. There`s not one French person I can think of except maybe two very simple people. You know, they`re really not very nice. They`re all for themselves.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you make of that, Lawrence?
LEAMER: Well, you know, Oscar Wilde said France is such a wonderful country it`s a pity it was wasted on the French, and he loved France. And Jackie, too.
I love this part of her. Maybe I`m just this trivial petty guy. But she`s so honest and bitchy I just think it`s delightful. We`re not sitting here talking about Pat Nixon.
BEHAR: No. That`s true. But you now, to your point, Sally, I think that she knew exactly what she was doing. This was on the record. Arthur Schlessinger was a very famous historian. She knew exactly -- that`s why she left out her husband`s affairs and all the rest of the negative stuff about him, you know?
QUINN: Yes. But I -- you`re absolutely right. I think she realized that it wasn`t going to -- she would never be reading this. You know, that this would be long after her death.
BEHAR: Yes, right.
QUINN: For me, I agree with Lawrence. I mean I think it shows she has a great sense of humor and that she`s witty and observant --
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: -- and that she`s a lot smarter than most people thought she was. You know, I mean, she talks like an airhead. So when she sort of does this whispery thing, you know, you sort of think, what`s going on in there? And yet clearly there was a lot there. I mean she was a smart woman and a perceptive and an observant woman.
BEHAR: I want to play one more tape. Hold on a second because Jackie also recalled Jack wanted to send her away during the Cuban missile crisis. This is interesting. Watch this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KENNEDY: Please don`t send me away to Camp David, you know, me and the children. Please don`t send me anywhere. If anything happens we`re all going to stay right here with you. And, you know, and I said, even if there`s not room in the bomb shelter in the White House, which I`d seen, I said, please then I just want to be on the lawn when it happens. You know, but I just want to be with you and I want to die with you and the children do, too.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. What does that say about her, Lawrence?
LEAMER: This is why I say it`s a memoir, not history. We have the record of that time, the Cuban missile crisis which was recorded, secretly recorded. The Kennedy men were incredibly cool and analytical. Nobody talked about death. This sounds like Jonestown. The idea that Jack would say, you can`t get in the bomb shelter. This is, again, simply mythology.
BEHAR: It`s kind of creepy that she says the children would like to die with you. There`s something creepy about that particular tape. Sally?
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: Well, you know, the other thing is this is -- her role as a woman was very interesting. The way she talked about herself as a woman. That her job as the first lady was to make the president`s life comfortable and happy. You know, that`s what she saw her role. And she also talked about how she didn`t see women in politicians. I think that she was just basically saying, "I`m a good wife."
It`s like the Indian practice of Suti where you throw your body on your husband`s funeral fire. It`s the good wife.
BEHAR: She really was the original good wife I think.
QUINN: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you, guys, very much for the interesting conversation. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next, Madonna responds to the latest hydrangea hysteria with a video that you definitely won`t want to miss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Remember last week when Madonna was caught on tape bashing a bouquet a fan gave her, saying I absolutely loathe hydrangeas? Well, now she`s made a spoof video about the controversy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Little dramatic? Maybe I`ll do a musical salute to ragweed. OK.
Joining me to talk about Madge`s (ph) hydrangea phobia and other hot topics, are Jackie Collins, author of "Goddess of Vengeance." Nene Leakes, star of "The Real Housewives of Atlanta." And Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent, "Newsweek" and TheDailyBeast.
OK, Jackie, is this funny, sad or desperate?
JACKIE COLLINS, AUTHOR: Well, I think what she should have done when she did the video and she`s got "The Godfather" music playing, she should have taken the hydrangeas and stuffed them in a dead horse`s mouth. That would have been effective. That would have, you know.
BEHAR: And then cut the horse`s head off and put it on a bed.
COLLINS: Exactly. That would have been perfect.
BEHAR: The whole thing. Is it the -- do you think there`s an undertone of, like, threats because she`s playing the Godfather music or no?
NENE LEAKS, REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ATLANTA: I don`t think so. You know what, I can really relate to Madonna in this situation whereas she had her mike on and the fans or whoever heard her saying what she said. That actually happened to me. You say things you don`t actually want anybody else to hear them. So I can totally relate to what happened to her. But I think she`s gone too far. Like, she`s in the press like crazy right now. I don`t know what Madonna`s problem is. I used to be a fan of hers.
COLLINS: Her problem might be Lady Gaga.
(CROSSTALK)
LEAKES: That may be true.
BEHAR: What about you, Rebecca? She also -- there is another little thing going on. Apparently her reps deny this, but I`m putting it out here. Her bodyguards say they told volunteers at the Toronto Film Festival to face the wall whenever she goes by. That she doesn`t want you looking at her. I heard this about Martin Scorsese and other people, that they don`t want you to make eye contact with them. Do you think--
COLLINS: Maybe she just wants to look at a parade of asses.
BEHAR: That`s easy enough. You know, I mean -- would you put it past her, Rebecca, to do something like that? Do you think it`s made up?
REBECCA DANA, NEWSWEEK: I think at this point I wouldn`t put anything past Madonna. Her whole personality has defined the one thing you wouldn`t put past her and actually demand it. Now is not a great time for her. This movie is not supposed to be so good. Her mike is on, she is caught. She made a web video to respond to it.
BEHAR: Why doesn`t she make a tape where at the end of it, she sort of trashes it again, instead of being nice? Why not try to repair the damage?
DANA: I don`t know. Or why not just say I`m sorry and move on at this point.
LEAKES: Because if she really believes it, then why say sorry?
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Who is she apologizing to anyway? The hydrangeas?
BEHAR: Well, her fans.
(LAUGHTER)
DANA: The hydrangea lobby is on fire.
BEHAR: I`ll tell you, Jackie, don`t you admire the fact that her new boyfriend is half her age? He`s half her age.
COLLINS: Oh, yes. I mean, whatever turns you on. I think he`s a quarter of her age, actually.
BEHAR: A quarter? She`s like 50 something and he`s, like, in his 20s.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She met him at Chuck E. Cheese. You know, it`s like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I think that it`s a very good thing that women are going out with younger men. My husband, the first time I`ve ever said that word on television.
Oh my God I am having vertigo! He is seven years younger than me.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know, but I like that. I think the man should be younger, because women die later. This way you both die at the same time.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s a death plan. OK, Jackie?
Now, remember White House party crashers the Salahis? Well, Tarek told TMZ, Tarek Salahi, that he believes his wife Michaele was kidnapped in Virginia yesterday, and the police aren`t taking it seriously. In fact, I`ve been told -- I`ve been tweeted by Tarek`s manager to retweet TMZ`s allegation that she was kidnapped. They`re telling me to do this. And people are tweeting about this. Do you think this is a stunt or not?
LEAKES: She`s probably trying to get away from him.
BEHAR: But I mean, why would he ever say that she was kidnapped as a stunt? That is crazy.
COLLINS: And why would he go straight to TMZ? I mean, isn`t that the first place you go if your partner is kidnapped?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, yes. And (inaudible), go to the--
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: There`s never any question that these people`s heads aren`t maybe screwed on exactly right. I think we should be careful because anything is possible, right? Here`s a public figure and won`t we all feel horrible if something terrible has happened to her. But these people broke into the White House. Is there anything --
BEHAR: They deny that, by the way. They deny it. They say they were on the list.
DANA: They can deny whatever they want.
BEHAR: But nobody believes it. You know? But they also have a winery opening up this week or something. So maybe it`s a little bit of a- -
DANA: Tarek was at the winery while she was kidnapped.
BEHAR: Exactly. I mean, you know--
DANA: Maybe she`s hiding among the wines.
COLLINS: I would think they`d eventually give her back because -- it`s not a pretty situation.
BEHAR: See, now, what if it`s true and she`s been kidnapped and something terrible happens?
DANA: Exactly. You can`t laugh too much.
BEHAR: Yes, we can. We don`t know if it`s true. When we find out it`s true, we`ll be sad.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean, why -- do we have to be sad now? No. We`ll be sad later. But is it possible that they feel a little jealous that the Beverly Hills Housewives have this publicity around -- this is sick, but the suicide is giving them a bump over there. They need to, like, come up with something.
DANA: Nene should be able to speak to this.
LEAKES: No, Nene should not be able to speak to that, because "The Housewives of Atlanta" is doing very well, Joy. We don`t have any suicides. Nobody is missing.
BEHAR: What do you think about the Beverly Hills Housewives, though?
LEAKES: I like them. I hang out with a couple of those girls. I think they`re very nice girls.
BEHAR: Not them. I mean the whole way they`re doing this now. They`re taking all of his part out, they`re promoting it anyway. Maybe they should have canceled --
LEAKES: Do you know that to be true? I don`t know that to be true.
BEHAR: Which?
LEAKES: That they`re taking some of his filming out to whatever.
BEHAR: They are. They took him out of it.
LEAKES: Oh.
BEHAR: They took him out of it and they took out a scene where she`s looking for sexy lingerie or something.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: They printed the pictures today of her with a horrendous black eye and a beaten up face.
LEAKES: That`s really, really sad. But I don`t know. All I can say is that I am a reality star. And "Housewives of Atlanta" is doing very well.
BEHAR: We heard that already.
COLLINS: When is it coming back? When is it coming back?
LEAKES: Very soon.
COLLINS: Good. We don`t have a date, right?
LEAKES: We just wrapped.
DANA: These Real Housewives franchises are -- it is an entire media empire now. There`s a criminal enterprise contained within it.
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: They`re taking over the world, I think.
LEAKES: Are you talking about the Housewives franchise?
DANA: Not you, honey. I think you`re fantastic.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Let`s talk about this new study about the new study comes out of the Philippines that shows that a man`s testosterone levels take a dive after he becomes a parent, and drop even further the more he gets involved in caring for his children.
COLLINS: Because when he`s caring for the children, the wife cuts off his cojones.
BEHAR: No, that`s not it. They say that he has a physiological hormonal change when the wife has a baby, and then the hormones, the estrogen increases, the testosterone drops when he`s nurturing. It`s like I don`t understand, it`s like if I went bowling yesterday, am I going to grow testicles? It doesn`t make -- I don`t get it. They`re saying that the behavior of the opposite sex is causing some kind of hormonal change.
DANA: It`s actually a really nice thing, I think.
BEHAR: You know what I`m saying?
DANA: Yes. The findings suggest actually that there`s an essential biological function to fatherhood, so a woman`s hormones change when she gives birth and raises the child. And so do a man`s. So all these arguments about how men are unimportant, men are inessential, they`re not true. Men do -- who said a ton of testosterone is a great thing anyway? I think it`s a lovely thing that men change like women.
BEHAR: Don`t you wish you had a little more testosterone? I`d like a little more testosterone.
LEAKES: I`d like a little more, too.
BEHAR: What would you do with it?
COLLINS: Let me ask you this -- does this lack of --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Excuse me, the show`s over here.
COLLINS: Just chat amongst yourselves.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: Does it mean they cannot get it up anymore? Is that what it means?
BEHAR: The man can`t get it up? No, no, no. It just means -- I don`t know exactly --
COLLINS: Of course it means that. That`s what it means.
BEHAR: I`m not really sure.
COLLINS: Yes. Because if he has got a low testosterone --
BEHAR: But it doesn`t lower his libido, it just changes his estrogen --
COLLINS: But they go together. They go together.
BEHAR: Well, that`s why--
DANA: We should really get a scientist on the program to enlighten us a little more.
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: I don`t think testosterone is only responsible for the elevation and lowering of the penis.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: So he can`t get it up.
DANA: I`m speaking the opposite point.
COLLINS: Oh.
DANA: But you`re welcome.
BEHAR: We need a scientist. This study needs a scientist.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Well, thank you, guys. Jackie, you stay right there because I want to get your take on a very revealing Jackie Kennedy tapes. You must discuss that off the air with me, girls. We`ll be right back. What do you think of that?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Jackie Collins has just released her 28th novel. It`s called "Goddess of Vengeance." And can I just say I`m very flattered she took the time to write about me.
Joining me now is bestselling author, Hollywood insider, and inveterate gossip, Jackie Collins. Welcome, Jackie.
COLLINS: Of course it`s about you, Joy. Your name in another life is Lucky Santangelo, isn`t it? I know that.
BEHAR: Every time I hear the word goddess, I think of moi.
COLLINS: Yes, of course. What about vengeance? How do you feel about that?
BEHAR: I`m big on vengeance.
COLLINS: Yes, I`m big on vengeance.
BEHAR: I don`t forgive, I don`t forget.
COLLINS: Nor do I.
BEHAR: I`m totally Sicilian on this one.
COLLINS: I like that. I like that in a woman, yes.
BEHAR: So we`ll get to the book in a moment.
COLLINS: OK.
BEHAR: We`re going to talk about Lucky later. But you are the Hollywood girl. Now you`re in New York for a week. Do you miss Hollywood? How are you liking it here?
COLLINS: I`m having such a good time here. Everywhere I go, I bump into a star.
BEHAR: Who did you run into?
COLLINS: I ran into Pierce Brosnan at breakfast.
BEHAR: Pierce Brosnan. He`s hot.
COLLINS: He`s very, very hot. Then I ran into him again with Greg Kinnear, the premier of their new movie.
BEHAR: Also fab, yes.
COLLINS: Also fab. And then I ran into Kristin Chenoweth this morning at Fox News. She was darting in and I was darting out. And--
BEHAR: You could lift her. She`s so small.
COLLINS: I know. She`s an adorable girl.
BEHAR: She was here yesterday. I`d like to pick her up.
COLLINS: She was?
BEHAR: I`d like to pick her up and--
COLLINS: Take her home to your new husband?
BEHAR: Yes. Well, no.
COLLINS: Oh, no. OK. Sorry. All right. Leave that one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who else? Drop another name. I love names.
COLLINS: Drop another name. Oh, oh, the lovely Tavis Smiley.
BEHAR: Tavis Smiley, yes.
COLLINS: He was with that wonderful man whose name escapes me for a moment -- Cornel West, I think.
BEHAR: Cornel West, yes.
COLLINS: Who said to me, you`re a sister, I love you, you`re a sister. I was so flattered by that, it was so great.
BEHAR: He didn`t say you`re a mother, did he?
COLLINS: No. He -- very good, Joy. Because you know, I write about black families a lot and I have a huge black audience. That was great.
BEHAR: That`s great. So he reads your books. Aren`t you flattered?
COLLINS: I know.
BEHAR: He`s a big intellectual.
COLLINS: It was so great. I was sitting in this like crummy little restaurant. I`d been to some event, and they came up to my table and knew who I was. And I was like, oh. Wow.
BEHAR: But everybody knows who you are. But you know, you never know what people do or watch. Like, Anderson Cooper was here the other night. He`s a big "Jersey Shore" fan. And I understand that you are a very big reality TV fan. Which one is your fave?
COLLINS: I am a TV junkie, actually. I have two DVRs and two TiVos in my bedroom, four.
BEHAR: Why do you need all those DVRs?
COLLINS: Because there are so many shows. Have you seen what`s coming on? Have you seen the new season?
BEHAR: I know, but each thing?
COLLINS: It sounds fantastic.
BEHAR: Doesn`t it--
COLLINS: Yes, it TiVos twice. You have no idea. My life is writing and catching up on TiVo. And I love every second of it.
BEHAR: No man in your life these days?
COLLINS: Oh, yes, I have a man for every occasion.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: When do you see him?
COLLINS: I keep those to the side. Yes. Reality. I love reality.
BEHAR: Reality shows.
COLLINS: My favorite at the moment is the Kardashians, because I think they`re so outrageous and they are so fun because they say whatever is on their mind and they have no filter.
BEHAR: No filter at all.
COLLINS: No.
BEHAR: And they are also, they`re not touchy, I noticed. Like the one will say, oh, this one has got fake boobs or this one has got -- and they don`t get mad at each other. I like that.
COLLINS: I like the relationship between the three sisters. I think it`s very warm. I`m losing my voice at the point of sisters, yes. No, I like them a lot. And the "Housewives of New Jersey," I`m crazy about them.
BEHAR: Oh, really? Why them and not the Beverly Hills and the other ones?
COLLINS: Well, the Beverly Hills are not really Beverly Hills. I mean, I-- and I also feel --
BEHAR: What do you mean they`re not really Beverly Hills?
COLLINS: Well, because to me, well, I wrote "Hollywood Wives," and Hollywood wives are married to a producer, a director, they`re a movie star or they are married to a movie star or they have, you know, they own a studio. And I`m looking at the women on that and I am thinking, they`re all very well and everything, but I don`t think they`re representative of Beverly Hills. And also I feel that the show is not going to be as funny as it was. It was quite funny, I must say.
BEHAR: Well, now that there was a suicide, it`s really -- it might have jumped the shark.
COLLINS: I think it jumped the shark. But the other shows are great. I love Andy Cohen (ph). I think he does an amazing job.
BEHAR: And the "Jersey Shore," you watch that too?
COLLINS: I do watch that, yes. Because I mean, it`s just like -- it`s completely out of line. You know, you go, what? What are they doing next? I mean, and then you see these shots of them making out under the sheets and you`re like, is this entertainment? I don`t know.
BEHAR: They`re ridiculous.
COLLINS: You`ve watched one, you`ve seen them all.
BEHAR: You know, Jackie Kennedy tapes are out this week.
COLLINS: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: And so there were some interesting revelations there. And I know you were around when they were around, like I was.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: She says that women should never be in politics. She says, we`re just not suited to it. Well, you know what, why does she talk like that? It`s like a phone sex operator.
COLLINS: Because he screwed Marilyn Monroe and she wanted to catch up. She talks like Marilyn Monroe. She had that very breathy voice, you know?
BEHAR: Breathy.
COLLINS: Mr. President, shall we go to bed now?
BEHAR: But I think she was before Marilyn, so Marilyn might have copied her, no?
COLLINS: No, I don`t know, Joy. Shall we sing "Happy Birthday Mr. President" together?
BEHAR: Happy birthday--
COLLINS: No, no, I don`t want to do it to--
BEHAR: Mr. President. OK. But anyway, she doesn`t really turn in the husband about his infidelities at all on these tapes. What do you make of that?
COLLINS: No. I make of it that she didn`t want to accept it, that it was going on. Some women push it to the side. There was this very famous Hollywood actor, and he used to hit on everything that moved. And his wife chose to ignore it until the girl came to their door one day, and she said I`m pregnant. And so she made the woman get rid of the baby, and then she took him, she said you need a checkup. She took him to the doctor and they got to the doctor, and the doctor gave him a vasectomy. He had no choice. Famous Hollywood story.
BEHAR: Who was it?
COLLINS: I`ll tell you after.
BEHAR: Oh, come on!
COLLINS: I`m not telling you on the show.
BEHAR: Are they alive, are the people still alive?
COLLINS: Yes, they are.
BEHAR: What do you know about Hollywood about people who are dead? Like, who was gay that we didn`t know about? A lot of people say Cary Grant was gay. Was he gay?
COLLINS: You know, unless I`m in the room, I don`t want to say it, because I never believe -- I mean, they say it about every actor, and every gay man goes, I know that he`s gay. You know, they say it about everybody. So --
BEHAR: I think you`re right.
COLLINS: A friend of mine says, well, they`re all straight. It`s like spaghetti until it hits hot water.
BEHAR: That`s a good one. I love that. We have another segment. Lucky us. More Jackie Collins in just uno momento. So stay there. OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with author Jackie Collins. Her new book is her eighth Lucky Santangelo novel, "Goddess of Vengeance." So Lucky is a very popular character. Lucky Santangelo.
COLLINS: She really is, Joy. And you know why? I think she does all the things we would really like to do and says all the things we would really like to say, and she gets up and she kicks ass. She knows how to do it.
BEHAR: So it`s your fantasy alter ego. Isn`t it?
COLLINS: It`s everybody`s fantasy. You know, women on Twitter, they come to me all the time. I`m JackieJCollins on Twitter, and they go, Lucky is back, we can`t wait. You know, I broke up with my boyfriend and I was lying on the floor and I thought, what would Lucky do? She`d get up and she`d get out there, because she`s a great character.
BEHAR: I think that`s why it`s popular, because women like strong women in books.
COLLINS: They do. You know, they are fed up with these little heroines who stand there and go, you`re going to marry me? That`s so wonderful.
BEHAR: Nobody wants to see that anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: We`re so tired of it.
COLLINS: You`re just (inaudible), didn`t you? Congratulations.
BEHAR: You mean I`m the married lady?
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: Yeah, whatever.
COLLINS: It`s great.
BEHAR: People are more interested in it than I am in a certain way, because I did it and it`s done. And that`s it.
COLLINS: That`s good. It`s great.
BEHAR: I know.
COLLINS: Yes.
BEHAR: So you have a character in this book in bed with a woman who you write is punishing her with his penis. I understand that, because I once browbeat a man with my boobs. How do you punish a woman with your penis?
COLLINS: Well, depending on the man, depending on the size--
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
COLLINS: Think about it.
BEHAR: So it`s a brutalization of sex.
COLLINS: Yes. Exactly. Actually, I made up this fictitious Arab country and he`s a Middle Eastern man, and he has no respect for women, and he hates women, and he goes in to buy Lucky`s hotel, and she tells him to get out, that she`s not selling. And he`s so furious by this that he can only sleep with hookers, and it`s the worst villain I`d ever written. And I don`t know how I channeled him, because the things he does are so disgusting.
BEHAR: You have an imagination.
COLLINS: Oh, yes. I do.
BEHAR: You do. Men who only sleep with hookers. We have plenty of those here.
COLLINS: I know we have plenty of those. We have a few in Hollywood too.
BEHAR: Indeed.
COLLINS: Because they like it, because they think they can do anything they want to do, and they don`t have to take them to the Emmys, they don`t have to take them to an award show--
BEHAR: They don`t have to buy them anything.
COLLINS: They don`t have to be photographed with them. They can just pay them and off they go home.
BEHAR: And they don`t need any of that annoying boring afterglow, you know what I mean?
COLLINS: I know, how boring is that?
BEHAR: The cuddling afterwards, and I love you darling. They`re sick of that. They don`t want to do it.
COLLINS: I know. Lucky doesn`t want that either. She has tantric sex with Lenny in the book, which is great, because I do believe in great--
BEHAR: What is tantric sex? Explain to my audience. My audience, they are very virginal out there. What is this?
COLLINS: Sure they are. That`s why they watch you because they`re so virginal.
BEHAR: They`re virginal.
COLLINS: Tantric sex is you just take a very, very, very, very long time.
BEHAR: Oh.
COLLINS: Yes. So I believe in role playing. Don`t you believe in role playing?
BEHAR: Only in psychodrama group. But I mean, it takes a very long time. So it`s like that song "I Want a Man With a Slow Hand." Same idea.
COLLINS: Exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: You`ve got man with a slow hand now.
BEHAR: My man.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He has a slow hand, he has a slow leg, he`s got a slow back.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Her new book is called "The Goddess of Vengeance," a great read. Thank you for watching. Thank you for coming.
COLLINS: Thank you.
BEHAR: Good night, everybody. Thank you so much.
END
