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Dancing Nancy; The Outspoken Susie Essman; Kristin Chenoweth: Standing Tall
Aired September 16, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, HLN`s Nancy Grace tells Joy about her new role on "Dancing with the Stars", and Joy wants to know if we`ll see a different side of the tough-talking host.
Then Joy`s friend Susie Essman dishes on the latest season of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" which some say was its best yet.
Plus Joy digs deep into the surprising Jackie Kennedy tapes. Will they tarnish the former first lady`s legacy?
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: HLN`s very own Nancy Grace is putting on her dancing shoes for the new season of "Dancing with the Stars", and we have a sneak peek of her rehearsal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRISTAN MACMANUS, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": Two, three. Cha, cha, cha. Two, three cha, cha, cha. Two, three, cha, cha, cha. Two, three, cha, cha, cha.
Very good. Yes.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Yes.
MACMANUS: That`s all that it is. That`s good that you got that really quickly, yes. So if you keep thinking that all of the time it`s going to be so much easier to get through this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Nancy Grace is with me now along with her dance partner Tristan MacManus. Nancy, now that you saw that little clip, are you sorry you said yes to this?
GRACE: Well, it`s not really two, three, cha, cha, cha. It`s two, three, chew her out. Two, three, chew her out. That`s the way it really went down.
BEHAR: How`s it going at the rehearsals? How are the rehearsals going, Nancy?
GRACE: Well, I`m an untrained dancer so I don`t really know. I think they`re going great, all right. But apparently, we have to stop about every 45 seconds to start over. Now I don`t know what that means. What does that mean?
MACMANUS: That means, doing it right. That`s why we have to keep stopping and doing it over and over.
GRACE: You know, Joy, I am going to take off my shoe, and you know that all I ever wear are running shoes and cowboy boots, ever. Look at this. It`s brutal. I`m not kidding.
BEHAR: My god, you`re like Big Foot.
GRACE: They`re 3 inches, Joy, 3 inches. I know.
BEHAR: How are the moves, Tristan? Tell me about her moves. Does she have two left feet? And would you tell her that? Let`s say she had two left feet, Tristan, would you tell her?
MACMANUS: Definitely. I definitely would. I`m trying to find that nice balance between telling her what`s right and wrong and trying not hurt her feelings. Yes it`s definitely my job to kind of -- I like to think that it`s constructive criticism.
GRACE: Keep laughing, Joy, maybe next year it`ll be you.
BEHAR: No way.
GRACE: I`m going to be interviewing you.
BEHAR: No way, Jose. I`m not crazy like you, Nancy.
GRACE: Two, three, chew her out.
BEHAR: I mean what did you need this for? You have so many things going on. You`ve got your show. You`ve got the twins. Why did you need this? Why?
GRACE: Well, Joy, I didn`t need it. But it was something I wanted to do because as you know, every dollar that I make on "Dancing with the Stars" is going to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So you know every night on my HLN show, I`m talking about a missing child and unsolved homicide. So now I`m getting a chance to put my money where my mouth is and donate all of it, every penny to help find missing children.
BEHAR: Well, that`s very, very nice of you I think and good of you. But you could have just made a donation. And avoid all of the pain involved here.
GRACE: This is the only -- listen, Joy, Joy, Joy, this is the only way I`m going to get to heaven. Because you know I`m mean, all right? I`m angry. I`m like (INAUDIBLE). So this is my one chance to buy my way into heaven.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Ok now I agree with everything that you have said so far. You`re not mean, you`re just strict. You`re very strict and tough. And so I would be afraid for my life actually if I were either Lynn Goodman or Bruno. What if they say something that you don`t like? Will you smack them? Tell the truth. Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You know what, Joy, everybody keeps asking me that and remember before I got that show a long time ago with Johnnie Cochran, I was in front of judges, pompous judges all day long. And I had to you know bite my tongue and listen to them and go uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. So believe me I`ve got it down well.
The thing about these three judges is, from what I`ve observed, they`re usually correct. So it`s kind of hard to argue with somebody who`s right.
BEHAR: Oh. Oh that is difficult, yes. But I mean are we going to -- are you going to be wearing anything kind of costume? Maybe a tutu or something, what are you going to be wearing? Feather boas?
GRACE: No, no. We`re going to reverse that this year. I`m going to be wearing the suit and he`s going to be wearing the push-up bra and the girdle. Ok that`s the big surprise.
BEHAR: You look pretty hot -- I will tell you in these photos that we`re showing you whatever that is footage, you look very good Nancy.
GRACE: I know can you believe all of that.
BEHAR: Look at you you`re such a hot mama. Wow.
GRACE: Thank you.
BEHAR: You`re welcome.
GRACE: I know.
MACMANUS: It makes my job an awful lot easier.
BEHAR: Isn`t it nice Tristan, to have her as a partner? Don`t you -- aren`t you loving this, Tristan?
GRACE: Isn`t it nice.
MACMANUS: Like seriously, really? No, it is, it`s great. We`re having great fun. I was very lucky to get Nancy this time around so if this was to be my last time doing it, I`m glad I got Nancy.
BEHAR: Tell me who do you see, either one of you, who do you see as the main competition? Because you have Chaz Bono there and you have Ricki Lake, Chynna Phillips, Carson Kressley, you have a soccer player, Hope Solo. She was on the view the other day. She seems like she knows how to dance. She`s play -- she can play soccer, that should be an advantage. Who are you afraid of?
GRACE: Really, really, Joy, there -- I can`t really single one out. Because each one of them has something unique. I mean Ricki Lake is a professional dancer. We all saw her in Hairspray. There`s professional athletes.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: Canalis has danced in the past so I really think that there is a lot of stiff competition and although now that I`m out here in L.A. I have been sneaking around and spying on them to steal their moves.
BEHAR: You know something when I got a divorce -- when I got a divorce, all I wanted to do was work out and move my body. Now this girl Canalis, didn`t she just split up with George Clooney? I would watch out for her. All right?
GRACE: I`ll let you weigh in on that one.
MACMANUS: I will be watching her.
BEHAR: I`m sure you will.
MACMANUS: No, she`s -- I think everyone`s here -- everyone`s here to do a job. Everyone seems to be having fun. And I mean getting back to that biggest competition I think everyone has something special themselves. I think that`s the reason they`re here in the first place.
So you never really know until we actually start dancing and see what is going to happen.
BEHAR: Nancy, well me ask you something, you know there`s this controversy around Chaz Bono, because this so-called shrink on Fox News said that you know he wouldn`t want children to be watching Chaz do this sort of thing because it`ll make the kids transgenders or something. Some kind of crazy (INAUDIBLE) story that he came up with. What do you think about that.
GRACE: Well, as long as I can remember there`s been somebody who doesn`t want somebody to dance. As I mentioned the other day I`m a lot less concerned about what Chaz Bono has in his pants as I am concerned about what`s in his shoes.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: I want to find out if he can dance.
BEHAR: Right. Exactly.
MACMANUS: I think everyone just needs to concentrate on equal opportunities a little bit more and maybe you should be teaching their kids to be happy however they are more so than nothing else.
BEHAR: Well said.
MACMANUS: Than telling people what they can or can`t do.
GRACE: Hey wait a minute, you can understand what he said?
MACMANUS: That`s because everyone else listens but you.
BEHAR: Sort of.
GRACE: Because I haven`t understood a word in three weeks.
BEHAR: That`s good.
GRACE: She didn`t understand you. She just said, yes, whatever.
BEHAR: Nancy, listen to this, Nance, Ryan O`Neal was said to appear as part of the cast but he dropped out, supposedly, when he found out that you were in it. Is he afraid of you? What do you know about this?
GRACE: I don`t -- I doubt that. I think that he was under the belief that somehow he or his family had been the subject of one of our shows on HLN. But we, to my knowledge, have never covered Mr. O`Neal or his children. And you know what, Joy, in light of the fact that his son is having to live the rest of his life without a mother, I think everybody should you know give the son a break.
I don`t recall Mr. O`Neal ever being a topic of mine. But I would love to see him compete. I would love to compete against him.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Well, I don`t know, maybe that`s why he`s pissed at you because you don`t mention him. You ignore him. That`s it. You know how actors are. They don`t want to be ignored.
GRACE: Maybe he was just afraid of my dance moves, Joy. Maybe he was afraid of our dance moves. Did you ever think of that?
MACMANUS: Maybe he wanted to dance with me.
BEHAR: I think so. Oh.
GRACE: Maybe he wanted to dance with Tristan. Maybe that was it.
BEHAR: No, no, no. Even I know that he`s a straight guy. How do I know that? I don`t know.
GRACE: No really, Joy, really on Ryan O`Neal a lot of people have asked me that. And the reality is we have never covered him. So I don`t know where he got that -- that impression. But I really do hate that he missed out on "Dancing with the Stars", season 13.
BEHAR: Yes, well I will not lose any sleep over it. Thanks, guys.
Of course you can see Nancy every night on HLN at 8:00. And be sure to watch Nancy and Tristan on the premiere of "Dancing with the Stars" Monday night on ABC.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: When she`s not busy cursing at Larry David on "Curb your Enthusiasm", Susie Essman spends her free time berating audiences in comedy clubs and theaters. This weekend she`ll be at Caroline`s on Broadway right here in New York City.
Hello, my dear.
SUSIE ESSMAN, "CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM": You know that this is the first time I`ve seen you since the nuptials.
BEHAR: Oh yes, I`m going to take these off.
ESSMAN: And I`ve seen you since you were married because I was at the wedding.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: But I haven`t seen you since then.
BEHAR: That`s right.
ESSMAN: And you look exactly the same.
BEHAR: I know. It`s a sin.
Let`s talk about this Caroline`s tonight.
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: You`re going to have some regulars there, you know?
ESSMAN: Ah.
BEHAR: Who is going to be there?
ESSMAN: Joy, every -- and you know that I`m there many times a year.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: Harvey Altman.
BEHAR: Your accountant.
ESSMAN: Your accountant, both our accountants. Isaac Black (ph), Robin Klein, every Tom, Dick and -- and whatever --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And Murray.
ESSMAN: And Murray and Ira, will be there and they`ll see -- it`s mind-boggling to me --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They love you.
ESSMAN: -- that they come over and over and over again.
BEHAR: But you know, people have to understand they`ve seen you probably 200 times?
ESSMAN: I would say Harvey`s seen me 200 times.
BEHAR: 200 times?
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: And they -- it`s like as fresh as a daisy every time for them.
ESSMAN: Get a life. What am I, the court jester?
BEHAR: That`s right. At least give you a discount on his services.
ESSMAN: Yes, really.
BEHAR: All right, now let`s talk about sex --
(CROSSTALK)
ESSMAN: He happens to be an incredible accountant though.
BEHAR: He`s great.
Let`s talk about sex because there was a scene in the new season of "Curb" with you in the car.
ESSMAN: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: With Larry and your seat was bumping up and down and you had a moment.
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s watch it.
ESSMAN: Ok.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, oh, oh, oh no. Oh.
ESSMAN: Oh what the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Larry (EXPLETIVE DELETED). What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) did you do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was hilarious.
ESSMAN: The funniest thing about shooting that thing and you have to realize we shot that scene maybe -- maybe eight, nine times.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: And we`re in a car and there`s a car -- and the camera`s in a car in front of us pulling us along.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: And the funniest I thing was between takes, Larry would tell me how he wanted me to do the orgasm.
BEHAR: Really?
ESSMAN: So he`d be like, that was really good but try it like this. Oo, oo, and he`d be doing the orgasm in Larry voice in the seat next to me. It was hilarious.
BEHAR: Well, you know people now have seen your orgasm face.
ESSMAN: Well, that was my Susie Green orgasm, the direction I got Larry Charles, I said Larry, he was the director of that episode and I was like, what do you want? And he said I don`t know, I guess have an orgasm the way Susie Green would have an orgasm.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So how did you do --
ESSMAN: So my husband claims --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: -- that is a Susie Green orgasm, that`s all I`m saying. That`s all I`m saying.
BEHAR: Ok. All right.
ESSMAN: And you of all people would know, Joy.
BEHAR: Oh, not that old lesbian thing again?
No, can you -- can you repeat an orgasm? I mean you said that you had to do it nine times.
ESSMAN: Yes I lost my voice. I had no voice for a couple of days.
BEHAR: What does your voice have got to do with it?
ESSMAN: Because I was going oh, and you know it`s just, I`m not a trained opera singer that I know to have an orgasm from my diaphragm.
BEHAR: But you know what, but -- but Susie, when we have orgasms --
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: -- not together but separately.
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m -- I`m as quiet as a mouse. I say nothing.
ESSMAN: Well, then you wouldn`t have been very funny in that scene.
BEHAR: Well, I would -- I would have had to channel you.
ESSMAN: Well, it was just -- you know I just kind of was thinking about -- I actually gave it some thought. Ok it`s a Susie Green orgasm.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: So I felt like I don`t think Susie Green likes sex too much or has it too much.
BEHAR: No.
ESSMAN: Not with Jeff (ph), please. So I -- I kind of -- and I had to come up with like it was almost a shock to her.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: You know the whole orgasm was almost a shock to her and it was a very guttural kind of a --
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
ESSMAN: You know, I gave it some thought.
BEHAR: You did?
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now you know there is no evolutionary reason for the female orgasm. I know they`re --
(CROSSTALK)
ESSMAN: They don`t know that.
BEHAR: They don`t know what the purpose of it is. I guess the purpose of it is, we`re not going to do it anymore and that would be the end of the species.
ESSMAN: Right, I would think --
BEHAR: Right, that would be it.
ESSMAN: -- I would think the purpose is enjoyment of sex, therefore you`re going to have it to procreate.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: Right.
If you don`t have an orgasm, why do you want some fat guy on top of you for?
BEHAR: I know, plenty of women have had children without having an orgasm. Probably our mothers.
ESSMAN: My grandma -- my grandmother for sure.
BEHAR: Yes. No, not my grandmother. My grandmother, please, she was a ho.
ESSMAN: Can I tell you something. Can I -- can we have time for one quick story?
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: My mother visited my new house a couple of weeks ago and she hands me a box and I said, what is this, ma? Grandma.
BEHAR: Oh, no, she still has Grandma.
ESSMAN: Yes, she still had Grandma. And she`s just -- I know, Jews are not supposed to cremate but we did and she -- and she just handed me Grandma and she said I want you to have Grandma because you loved her the most.
Well, all hell breaks loose, then, my sister says what do you mean she loved her the most. I loved Grandma. There was a fight over the box you know. It was a fight of -- so now I have grandma sitting on my sundeck and I don`t know what to do with it.
BEHAR: Well, let`s hope for another hurricane.
Now you had said in your book.
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: "Ask Susie" --
(CROSSTALK)
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: -- that sex gets better as you get older?
ESSMAN: Yes it does.
BEHAR: But only to a point because then menopause sets in.
ESSMAN: And then too hot, yes. Why do you think I cut my hair, Joy?
BEHAR: Is that why you cut your hair?
ESSMAN: Yes, I couldn`t stand it on my neck anymore.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: It`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: Yes.
ESSMAN: But I do. And -- that doesn`t make sense evolutionary either. Why women -- it`s better at 35 doesn`t make sense in terms of evolution. Really.
BEHAR: Well, why? Because those are your wonder years when you are still fertile. You still have eggs.
ESSMAN: But you`re not that fertile after 35 -- but sex gets better for women at like 35 and up.
BEHAR: That`s true.
ESSMAN: In their 20s not so much and that`s when you`re really fertile. So that doesn`t -- you know what, maybe evolution is an --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No because the boys love sex at 18 and the women love it at 40.
ESSMAN: At 18. Yes that`s -- that`s God`s little trick on us isn`t it?
BEHAR: So unless -- so unless you`re Madonna, where are you going?
ESSMAN: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, so and now the kids --
ESSMAN: Yes. I`m an empty nest.
BEHAR: Oh I have to wrap, I have, too an empty nest. They`re all gone.
ESSMAN: Yippee.
BEHAR: Four of them gone and it`s just you and Jimmy. Jimmy in the morning. Jimmy at night.
ESSMAN: Jimmy at night. I feel like we`re on vacation. I feel like we`re on vacation.
BEHAR: I know it`s great.
ESSMAN: It`s fantastic.
BEHAR: I`m going on a honeymoon in October.
ESSMAN: Really? Where?
BEHAR: I`m not telling you.
ESSMAN: I know where.
BEHAR: Here`s a hint -- when the moon hits you like a big pizza pie -- you can see Susie at Caroline`s in New York tonight and at the Ridgefield Playhouse in Connecticut on Saturday. And go to her Website for more information on her Florida show with --
ESSMAN: With Richard Lewis.
BEHAR: With Richard Lewis.
ESSMAN: Talk about orgasms.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Kristin Chenoweth may only be 4-feet-11 but she seems really much taller when she stands on top of her Tony and Emmy awards. She`s also standing tall in the face of criticism from her fellow Christians for her public support of gay rights. Her new album is "Some Lessons Learned".
So please welcome everybody, Kristin Chenoweth.
KRISTIN CHENOWETH, SINGER: Thank you, guys.
BEHAR: You`re very popular here.
CHENOWETH: I`ve slept with all of them.
BEHAR: Did you really? Yes. I`ve heard that about you.
CHENOWETH: I`m a wild lady. Not.
BEHAR: Now, this album is a country album --
CHENOWETH: Yes.
BEHAR: -- which is new for you, right?
CHENOWETH: Well, you know, people don`t know me as a country artist and I am new to the genre. But that`s how I grew up singing.
BEHAR: Oh, you did.
CHENOWETH: I finally got to do the one -- I mean I`ve done a lot of the ones I want to do. The Christian record, the Christmas record. The first one was `30s and `40s big band orchestra and I love that.
BEHAR: Oh. Yes.
CHENOWETH: This is getting back to my roots. And not these.
BEHAR: Where was that? Where did you grow up?
CHENOWETH: Oklahoma.
BEHAR: Oklahoma. I guess that`s country music territory.
CHENOWETH: Totally.
BEHAR: Big time right?
CHENOWETH: Yes. Totally. Totally.
BEHAR: Ok. So we also -- we have a clip of you performing a song from the album.
CHENOWETH: Fantastic.
BEHAR: Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(KRISTIN CHENOWETH`S MUSIC VIDEO)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Look at you, you sexy little thing, you; lying there all sexy like that.
CHENOWETH: It takes a village.
BEHAR: I`m telling you. What`s this song about -- what`s this song, "I Want Somebody, Bitch About". What`s that mean, bitch about?
CHENOWETH: I want somebody I can bitch about.
BEHAR: Oh, that I can bitch about.
CHENOWETH: Don`t you?
BEHAR: Yes.
CHENOWETH: That`s why you got married.
BEHAR: Well, I have somebody now. Yes.
We also -- you have another song, "What would Dolly Do"?
CHENOWETH: Yes.
BEHAR: It says, "What Would Dolly Do - WW Double D". I`m assuming that Dolly`s boobs inspired this, Dolly Parton`s boobs? Right?
CHENOWETH: Yes. Because she is my favorite singer. I don`t know how she feels about it. But I kind of approached the record -- this album, what would she do because you know, I was born but not yesterday. I`m not a spring chicken. I`ve lived a little bit more than some of the younger country artists.
But I also had a lot to say. I thought, how would she handle heartbreak, what would Dolly do? Why am I not writing that song, WW Double D?
BEHAR: I see. You could play her, you know, at some point.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: You`d have to get gigantic implants.
CHENOWETH: There would be a couple things I`m missing. I could take care of that.
BEHAR: But you`d tip over. I mean really. It would be scary.
Somebody told me you have some sort of illness that causes vertigo.
CHENOWETH: I`m so glad you`re bringing this up. I want to bring more information and knowledge about this disease. It`s called Meniere`s Disease.
BEHAR: Meniere`s. Yes.
CHENOWETH: You`ve heard of it.
BEHAR: I`ve had Meniere with fillet of sole. I know that. Fillet of Sole au la Meniere. You`ve never had that?
CHENOWETH: I`m going to go tonight.
It`s an inner ear infection that causes vertigo. So when I stand -- usually I wake up with it and I have bouts of it. It`s really frustrating to have and it also causes hearing loss which I have a little in my right ear. So the next time you see me, I may be wearing a hearing aid.
Whatever it takes, it`s frustrating as a singer, as an actor if you go on Broadway and it`s sort of be off kilter.
BEHAR: Well, you have to fight that. And you do very well considering you have this Meniere`s Disease.
CHENOWETH: Dela sole.
BEHAR: Dela sole. Ok.
We`re going to take a break but when we come back, I want to talk to you about being a pro gay Christian and how much trouble that`s causing you.
CHENOWETH: Ok.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with actress Kristin Chenoweth who is up for an Emmy this Sunday for her performance in "Glee" playing an alcoholic floozy, which is not an easy part for a Christian girl.
CHENOWETH: I don`t know why they thought of me, I have no idea.
BEHAR: Are there -- are there rules against playing an alcoholic floozy girl when you`re a Christian girl?
CHENOWETH: You know, I played a prostitute, an alcoholic floozy, a terrible waitress -- that I am -- lots of different characters. But you know, I`m an actor.
BEHAR: You`re an actor. That`s right. But you don`t get any flak for any of that. The Christian community gets it, that it`s an acting job, right?
CHENOWETH: Not always.
BEHAR: They don`t?
CHENOWETH: Not always. I mean, what`s that parent television, I`m against all the bad shows?
BEHAR: Parents Television Council?
CHENOWETH: Them. They hate -- they don`t hate -- they had a lot of hard times with "Glee" and you know, the gay characters and stuff.
BEHAR: What do you want to tell them? Tell them now.
CHENOWETH: I just want to say, that if Jesus were alive, what would he be doing? Well, he would probably be accepting and loving people how they`re made. And I always say this and it`s really the truth. If being 4`11 was a sin, what would I do? Well, I could wear heels and I could add a wig.
BEHAR: You mean being short.
CHENOWETH: Yes. I`m 4`11. What would I do if that was a sin? I couldn`t do anything about it because that`s the way God made me. And I do -- make no mistake, I am a Christian and I believe in God, and I don`t believe he makes mistakes. So I don`t believe that being gay is not a sin, and in fact it`s how you`re made.
BEHAR: Well, isn`t the rap that they`re not committing a sin as long as they don`t do anything about it?
CHENOWETH: It`s like not doing anything about being short. What would I do, hide?
BEHAR: Yeah. So you`re gay but you`re not supposed to have any kind of sexual behavior in your life, and yet you can`t even masturbate. What are you supposed to do? Put a gun to your head? What are the alternatives?
CHENOWETH: The thing is that I am a very spiritual person. But I also am -- you know, I`m a sexual being. That`s the way God put us together. I`m not promiscuous. I think that`s a different topic, if that`s what they`re talking about, that is a different topic.
BEHAR: That is a different topic. Again, what is wrong with promiscuity?
CHENOWETH: You tell me, Joy, you tell me.
BEHAR: Well, I just got married so I`m a good Christian girl, too, now.
CHENOWETH: I`m so happy that you`ve come to my way.
BEHAR: I`ve come your way. You know, I grew up Catholic, did you know that?
CHENOWETH: I did know that about you.
BEHAR: Yes. I was confirmed, I`ve been baptized, the whole nine yards. I was smacked around by a nun, I`ve done it all.
CHENOWETH: That had to hurt, man.
BEHAR: Yes. But now, you grew up in Oklahoma`s Bible Belt, which is really interesting. What would your grandma -- there`s a story I heard, what would your grandmother say when you would ask her, why does the Bible hate gays, what would she tell you?
CHENOWETH: Well, I would say to her, my best friend Danny, why, how could he be going to hell? Like how is that possible? He`s a great guy.
BEHAR: Your friend.
CHENOWETH: He, too, was a Christian. And how could that be? And she said, I just eat the Bible -- eat the Bible -- I read the Bible like I eat fish. I take the meat that serves me well, but I don`t choke on a bone.
BEHAR: What the hell does that mean?
CHENOWETH: It`s (inaudible). No. I take the meat that serves me well, but I don`t choke on a bone. In other words, take what you can and learn --
BEHAR: From the Bible.
CHENOWETH: Yes. And you know, also, the Old Testament, a lot of things were like, hey, stone your neighbor if you looked at him with a cross-eye.
BEHAR: Exactly.
CHENOWETH: You just can`t -- you can`t go there. And I know a lot of Christian people would be listening to me right now and have a problem with what I`m saying. And that`s OK, too. I don`t judge them for what they believe, so I don`t want to be judged for what I believe.
BEHAR: Right. They don`t believe every single thing in the Bible, I mean Noah and all those animals on the boat, I don`t think so.
CHENOWETH: Do you think Moses literally went, hey, cockroaches. Come on. And snakes, you come too. I always thought, why did he bring you know, coyotes? Think about this.
BEHAR: Yeah, why did God make--
CHENOWETH: Why did Moses say, hey, cockroaches, hey?
BEHAR: I didn`t know Moses said that. He said that? I think he said part the sea. You mean Noah. Oh, Noah.
CHENOWETH: Well, I need some sleep, Joy. I need some sleep.
BEHAR: I`m wondering why would Moses have roaches in Mount Sinai or wherever he was? Those are usually restricted to Manhattan. But you`re talking about Noah now. Did Noah have roaches on the boat, too?
CHENOWETH: That`s what I`m saying, I mean, do you really think he invited all the animals? Thank you. That`s my point.
BEHAR: Yeah. I know. Who did the pooper scooping, that`s what I want to know about that story.
CHENOWETH: You know, his wives did it.
BEHAR: The wives, Noah`s wives. Probably.
All right, what do you say--
CHENOWETH: So what? Who cares.
BEHAR: Who cares, that`s right. What about these politicians who use Christianity to make their point. That bothers me.
CHENOWETH: You know, there is a reason.
BEHAR: Any religion. Any religion.
CHENOWETH: I agree.
BEHAR: It doesn`t have to be just Christianity. I mean, you can talk about these terrorists who used Islam to kill 3,000 people on 9/11, it`s the same syndrome.
CHENOWETH: I just feel like there is a reason they should be separate. I heard my whole life, separation of church and state.
BEHAR: Right. There`s a lot of mixing of that right now going on I think.
CHENOWETH: It`s a little frightening to me.
BEHAR: It is a little frightening. And you know, you`ve done some anti-gay bullying, some PSAs on that, which I think is very good. Do you think that gay kids are bullied more than straight kids as a rule? Or is it just the usual?
CHENOWETH: I know for a fact, I mean -- I love where I`m from. I just want everyone to know that. I think it`s one of the best states in the union. And there are the best people in--
BEHAR: Which state is it?
CHENOWETH: Oklahoma.
BEHAR: Oklahoma. Yes.
CHENOWETH: But bullying is everywhere. And I grew up seeing kids get bullied. And my friends get bullied for being different, aka gay or whatever it was. Yes. A lot of kids are bullied because of their sexuality, and that breaks my heart, because they`re going to have to -- high school`s hard enough to overcome. Middle school is hard enough to overcome when we get out of it. They say life is what you spend your time getting over because of high school, you know what I mean?
BEHAR: Yes.
CHENOWETH: And I just want everyone to understand that when you`re a kid and you`re out there with, you know, your other peers, how important, how any time you tease someone or say something negative, how that can go to a kid`s heart, and they can take it beyond any -- I have a pretty tough skin. But some people don`t.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s right.
CHENOWETH: And it kills me that someone would -- a child would take their life because of their --
BEHAR: That just happened, I was reading about a whole slew of kids who just committed suicide in Minnesota.
CHENOWETH: Are you serious?
BEHAR: Yes. I`m not saying that she had anything to do with it. It happens to be in Michele Bachmann`s district.
CHENOWETH: Are you kidding?
BEHAR: And they`re very anti-gay in that community there.
CHENOWETH: Haven`t we learned, though, anything, Joy?
BEHAR: I don`t know. The Christian groups over there, the conservative Christian groups say it`s not OK to be gay. So if you`re not OK to be gay, there was something wrong. I mean, I was bullied, but for a different reason. I was nerdy, I realize now -- I didn`t even know it at the time. But you don`t really feel that bad about yourself as somebody saying it`s not OK to be something that you know you are.
CHENOWETH: That you are. And that`s what kills me. You know, it doesn`t matter, like you said, whatever faith you are, we have these rules of how you have to be. And if you`re born a certain way, it`s the truth.
BEHAR: But what about Chaz Bono now? He`s on "Dancing With the Stars," and I understand he`s getting all this hate mail and all these people are furious -- and this guy, Keith Ablow, who is a shrink was on Fox, I was reading this, and he was saying that the children who are watching see -- watch a transgender dance, that they are going to think that they can be transgenders. That is quite a leap.
CHENOWETH: OK. First of all, why are we still having the conversation? That would be -- can you imagine feeling like you`re born in the wrong body?
BEHAR: It can be -- I know that`s got to be very difficult.
CHENOWETH: That has to be very hard in and of itself. Why do we have to persecute and talk badly about, why can`t we just say, OK, this is a person, a man now that has changed into what he feels like he was supposed to be. I can`t imagine how hard that is on his family, on him alone. Why do then we all have to judge it? And he shouldn`t be on "Dancing With the Stars," and that is going to affect my niece or my nephew or my neighbor. No, it`s not. Kids are way more accepting than adults.
BEHAR: Let`s just see if he can dip a girl.
CHENOWETH: You know what, if he doesn`t drop anybody on its head, then he`s a hero.
BEHAR: There you go. But you know, before I go, I don`t have too much time, you have this new sitcom, "Good Christian Belles." Tell me about that.
CHENOWETH: It`s about a group of five women who grew up in the Bible Belt in Dallas, Texas. And it does deal with spirituality and it deals with how they deal with each other, their Christianity, their demons, all the things that go on as human. It shows the human side of Christianity and it does it with a lot of humor. And I am very proud of it.
BEHAR: And it sounds like it`s edgy.
CHENOWETH: It`s very edgy.
BEHAR: Love that.
CHENOWETH: I love it.
BEHAR: Where is it going to -- where are we going to see it?
CHENOWETH: It will be on this fall more than likely. It`s ABC show mid-season, so we`re waiting on our air date. But we`re in the middle of shooting right now. And I`m so excited for the world to see it.
BEHAR: You`re shooting in New York?
CHENOWETH: Shooting in L.A.
BEHAR: Oh, in L.A.
CHENOWETH: Yeah.
BEHAR: Oh, thank you for coming on.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s great to see you, you`re adorable.
CHENOWETH: Thank you.
BEHAR: We love you here. Right? Kristin`s new album is called "Some Lessons Learned." And we`ll be right back. Here it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Four months after President Kennedy was assassinated Jackie Kennedy made private tape recordings that she wanted to remain sealed for decades.
This week 17 years after Jackie`s death, her daughter, Caroline, has made them public.
Here to discuss this, are Sally Quinn, columnist for "Washington Post" and editor-in-chief of "On Faith"; and Laurence Leamer, best-selling author of a trilogy of books on the Kennedy`s including "The Kennedy Women", "The Kennedy Men" and "Sons of Camelot". Thanks for coming on the show guys.
LAWRENCE LEAMER, BESTSELLING KENNEDY BIOGRAPHER: Thank you.
BEHAR: Lawrence, my impression of Jackie and I go back to -- to it also you know and this week has been deja vu all over again -- my impression of Jackie is, is that she was a private person. So I`m surprised how candid is -- how candid she is here. Are you surprised?
LEAMER: Well, she was a very sophisticated, complicated woman. And you see what we saw on ABC last night was not history. It was the memoir of a grieving widow. Right after the assassination, those two days, she invented the funeral that we all know, the riderless horse.
BEHAR: Right.
LEAMER: John -- John Jr. saluting, all of these things. And so -- and that weekend she went to Hyannisport and she told Teddy White, the journalist, that this was Camelot. So this is the same mythic land they were dealing with four months later. It`s a woman who`s still in a great deal of pain.
BEHAR: In pain and a little bit maybe in denial or was -- because she doesn`t talk about Jack`s extramarital affairs or his secret struggle with Addison`s disease. Was she in denial or was she in, you know, rewriting or whitewashing? What do you think, either one of you, yes?
LEAMER: I think -- I think -- I think it was both of these things and I think what she was trying to do is create an image of JFK for her children and for America, that we`d remember that part of him.
BEHAR: Yes so -- you don`t think she left it out on purpose?
LEAMER: Well, she wasn`t going to talk about those things. She was a woman -- she would look another -- she would look another way. She wouldn`t look at these things. And she of course, she knew they existed, and half the time in the White House she wasn`t even there, she was away.
BEHAR: Yes. Sally, what do you think about that?
SALLY QUINN, COLUMNIST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": First of all, it was an interview. So the questions weren`t there to be answered.
BEHAR: Oh. True.
QUINN: And so if she had been asked about those issues, she may well have responded. We don`t know about that.
BEHAR: Right.
QUINN: You know, the interesting -- for me the most stunning thing in the whole book is her remarks about Martin Luther King.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: And that he was a total phony and that --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, let`s listen -- let`s listen to the -- to the tape right now.
QUINN: Right.
BEHAR: Thank you.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JACQUELINE KENNEDY, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Then he told me of a tape that the FBI had of Martin Luther King when he was here for the Freedom March. He said this with no bitterness or anything, how he was calling up all these girls and arranging for a party of men and women, I mean sort of an orgy in the hotel and everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Martin Luther King?
KENNEDY: Oh, yes. At first he said, "Oh well, you know and I said, "Oh but Jack, that`s so terrible". I mean, that man is, you know, such a phony. Bobby told me later, I just can`t see a picture of Martin Luther King without thinking of -- you know, that man is terrible.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: She has such a conspiratorial little tone to her voice.
LEAMER: Yes.
BEHAR: It drives me crazy to listen to her. Does anyone else have that reaction? It`s really annoying to me.
QUINN: Well, don`t forget, this was a long time ago and -- and people talked like that.
BEHAR: My mother didn`t.
QUINN: No, but there were a lot of people, upper class WASPs who talked that way. And it was not unusual for her. And most of her crowd talked that way, too. She obviously had a more whispery tone to her voice than most people did. But -- but that was a way a lot of sort of prep school WASPy, Vassar girls talked.
BEHAR: Really? Also Marilyn Monroe.
QUINN: Yes.
BEHAR: Marilyn Monroe talked like that also.
QUINN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: But I mean, what I think about the Martin Luther King thing was, I mean, we ask, well, how could she possibly have been so judgmental about him when Jack was having the same issues?
BEHAR: Right.
QUINN: But I think, you know, Lawrence is right, that that -- that was something that she kind of knew but compartmentalized. She put it out of the way of her -- her daily life because she couldn`t deal with it, and so she entered -- so she didn`t deal with it and she repressed it.
I think with King, he was a priest. He was a minister. He was a pastor. And so he was preaching God and goodness and faith and all that kind of thing. And so I think that when she said "phony," I think she might well have meant hypocrite.
BEHAR: Yes. Well you know, Caroline did say that -- that JFK and Jackie both did admire Martin Luther King`s work a lot. So I just want to make -- put that on the record.
QUINN: Yes.
LEAMER: But listen, this is one of these verboten subjects. Let`s face it. The House assassination -- committee on the assassination in the early `70s has thousands of pages of information about Martin Luther King. There are these tapes. I talked to an FBI agent who heard them. All of these years later, this should be opened up and we should have a truthful history of our time.
Martin Luther King will stay a great man, but we shouldn`t have this part of our history closed, and Jackie has begun to open it up for us.
BEHAR: OK, it`s true. She also made some catty comments about others. She called Prime Minister, Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi a real prune, a kind of bitter, pushy, horrible woman. And French president Charles De Gaulle she said was a spiteful egomaniac.
You know, De Gaulle did march behind the cortege at her husband funeral. I`m surprised that she took him on. And she also said that Mrs. Johnson, Lady Bird, was like a -- a trained hunting dog because she followed LBJ around, taking notes on every little golden word that he said.
Did you expect her to be so snotty? I didn`t.
QUINN: You know, Joy, one of the things that -- she wasn`t talking on the record, you have to remember that. I mean, she had no idea or if she did that this would ever be published or if it was published it would be many, many years after Jack`s death and her death.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, it`s true.
QUINN: The other thing -- the other thing is, is that you know, people have opinions. Just because somebody marches behind a cortege it doesn`t mean that they`re not an egomaniac.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
QUINN: So I think that she was just reflecting her own views on who these people were. The other thing is, that the Kennedys, very much like Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, loved gossip. They absolutely loved to gossip.
BEHAR: Well, who doesn`t? We all love it. Let`s face it.
QUINN: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: And you know my husband -- I didn`t know Jackie. I met her. But my husband and his wife spent maybe two or three nights a week at the White House, and a lot of it was just gossip, this kind of gossipy stuff.
BEHAR: I`ve been to parties at your house and Barbara Walters`. It`s all gossip.
QUINN: But with some serious things.
BEHAR: OK. Next segment we`re going to find out why Jacqueline Bouvier hated the French. Who knew.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the just released Jackie Kennedy tapes. What do you -- Jackie blasted the French. Let`s listen to this. It`s interesting.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KENNEDY: I loathe the French. There`s not one French person I can think of except maybe two very simple people. You know, they`re really not very nice. They`re all for themselves.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you make of that, Lawrence?
LEAMER: Well, you know, Oscar Wilde said France is such a wonderful country, it`s a pity it was wasted on the French. And he loved France. And Jackie, too.
I love this part of her. Maybe I`m just this trivial petty guy. But she`s so honest and bitchy, I just think it`s delightful. We`re not sitting here talking about Pat Nixon.
BEHAR: No. That`s true. But you know, to your point, Sally, I think that she knew exactly what she was doing. This was on the record. Arthur Schlessinger was a very famous historian. She knew exactly -- that`s why she left out her husband`s affairs and all the rest of the negative stuff about him, you know?
QUINN: Yes. But I -- you`re absolutely right. I think she realized that it wasn`t going to -- she would never be reading this. You know, that this would be long after her death.
BEHAR: Yes, right.
QUINN: For me, I agree with Lawrence. I mean, I think it shows she has a great sense of humor and that she`s witty and observant --
BEHAR: Yes.
QUINN: -- and that she`s a lot smarter than most people thought she was. You know, I mean, she talks like an airhead. So when she sort of does this whispery thing, you know, you sort of think, what`s going on in there? And yet clearly there was a lot there. I mean, she was a smart woman and a perceptive and an observant woman.
BEHAR: I want to play one more tape. Hold on a second, because Jackie also recalled Jack wanted to send her away during the Cuban missile crisis. This is interesting. Watch this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KENNEDY: Please don`t send me away to Camp David, you know, me and the children. Please don`t send me anywhere. If anything happens, we`re all going to stay right here with you. And, you know, and I said, even if there`s not room in the bomb shelter in the White House, which I`d seen, I said, please, then I just want to be on the lawn when it happens. You know, but I just want to be with you and I want to die with you and the children do, too.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. What does that say about her, Lawrence?
LEAMER: This is why I say it`s a memoir, not history. We have the record of that time, the Cuban missile crisis which was recorded, secretly recorded. The Kennedy men were incredibly cool and analytical. Nobody talked about death. This sounds like Jonestown. The idea that Jack would say, you can`t get in the bomb shelter. This is, again, just simply mythology.
BEHAR: It`s kind of creepy that she says the children would like to die with you. There`s something creepy about that particular tape.
QUINN: I think that she was just basically saying, "I`m a good wife." It`s like the Indian practice of Suti, where you throw your body on your husband`s funeral fire. It`s the good wife.
BEHAR: She really was the original good wife, I think.
QUINN: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, guys, very much for the interesting conversation.
Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
