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Joy Behar Page
Most Obnoxious Hollywood Liberals, Potential Republican Nominees, America`s Liberal Position; Interview With Michael Moore; Conrad Murray`s Trial
Aired September 26, 2011 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: According to a recent poll, I am one of the 10 most obnoxious Hollywood Liberals in the country, which is odd because I don`t live in Hollywood and neither does my first guest who is also on the list.
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER AND AUTHOR: No, you are not obnoxious.
Joining me now, filmmaker and author of "Here Comes Trouble," my fellow obnoxious Liberal, Michael Moore.
MOORE: It`s just because you`ve got the New York accent, that`s the only reason.
BEHAR: I mean really, they called me...
MOORE: But where did we land on the list.
Oh the list, it`s called some list and Sean Penn is No. 1.
MOORE: Sean, that would -- OK, I accept that.
Michael Moore is No. 2.
MOORE: Well, I`m No. 2 -- Well then, if I`m going to be No. 2 -- how did I miss No. 1?
BEHAR: I don`t know. Because he called Bush, Cheney and Condoleezza Rice, "villainous and criminally obscene."
MOORE: I must have said something similar to that.
BEHAR: No, apparently you didn`t. Yours is not quite as bad. You said that the Bush administration was composed of liars and murders.
MOORE: Yeah, I`m a little more subtle than Sean. Where are you at?
BEHAR: And then, I`m No. 9.
MOORE: And who`s in between us?
BEHAR: Danny Glover`s No. 3, Barbra Streisand`s four, Jane Fonda, they`re still dining out on Hanoi Jane, Alec Baldwin`s No. 6, Susan Sarandon No. 7, eight is Janeane Gerofalo, Joy Behar No. 9 and the Sheen`s No. 10.
MOORE: The who?
BEHAR: The Sheen`s.
MOORE: Oh, all the Sheen`s.
BEHAR: Just -- I think it`s just the -- Martin and one of his sons.
MOORE: I see.
BEHAR: Oh no, Charlie Sheen. He was an out-spoken truther, you know, who said that 9/11 was the government.
MOORE: But, the way to look at this is that you are on the same list as Barbra Streisand and -Jane Fonda.
BEHAR: Oh listen, honey, I`ll take it.
MOORE: I mean, in your lifetime...
BEHAR: It`s like being on Nixon`s enemies list.
MOORE: Right.
BEHAR: I`m going to have this framed.
MOORE: No, that`s -- that is great. Sean Penn is the nicest and sweetest and most gentle person.
BEHAR: Didn`t he go to Haiti and was physically moving things and helping them?
MOORE: He didn`t just go down there, he actually, literally was living down there.
BEHAR: I know.
MOORE: And without cameras and without publicists and all that, he was just doing -- and he`s done that in many cases, he does things very quietly. In fact, just this week, he didn`t send out a press release about this, nobody knew about it, but he was instrumental getting those two American hikers released from prison in Iran.
BEHAR: How dare he! How dare the Liberal do such a thing and help people in Haiti. This is where they`re at. They get mad at you for doing good deeds.
MOORE: Well, yes. They`re mad, not just for that, but they`re mad when they perceive you to be effective.
BEHAR: Right.
MOORE: If they perceive that you have an audience of millions. That`s when they[`re really -- they don`t get down on -- they`re not upset at Noam Chomsky.
BEHAR: They`re not too mad at Gore Vidal, either. Not anymore.
MOORE: Not anymore, but they used to.
BEHAR: Yeah, when he was on TV.
MOORE: And they still should because he`s still saying a lot of things that are really important. But, I`m just saying that If they perceive that you have an audience of millions, that`s when they go crazy.
BEHAR: OK. Now, I`m going to talk about your book because there`s a lot about you in here. But, before we get to that, let`s talk about a few things are happening. I mean, Perry or Romney is going to take the nomination, what do you think?
MOORE: Oh, I thought you were asking me out for a double date or something.
BEHAR: No.
MOORE: Who`s going to take it? Perry or Romney?
BEHAR: Yeah, because those are the two that are left.
MOORE: Well, they`re left right now, in September of `11.
BEHAR: Who`s going to come in at this hour?
MOORE: Anything can happen.
BEHAR: Herman Cain. I mean, he won the straw poll in Iowa.
MOORE: Americans do love pizza.
BEHAR: God Father`s pizza.
MOORE: I mean, I doesn`t matter what kind of pizza.
BEHAR: Do you think these people want another black president?
MOORE: It was frozen pizza. He was the frozen pizza king. He can get nominated.
BEHAR: Do you think they want another black president in the White House, these people?
MOORE: Oh, those people. You mean the Republican conservatives?
BEHAR: Whoever is in these -- you know, so against Obama.
MOORE: Well, he got 34 percent of the straw poll in Florida, so I can`t answer that question. I don`t know.
BEHAR: No.
MOORE: But, I think it`s too early to tell. I think that there`s a lot of Republicans -- actually, there`s a lot of conservatives out there who are -- look, I assume everyone out there who`s a Republican or conservative loves this country, is a good American and wants what`s best.
BEHAR: They don`t assume that about you.
MOORE: Well, that isn`t a quid pro quo. They`re full of hate and all this stuff that you mention, but I don`t feel that way toward them. I honestly believe they care deeply about their country. I don`t think what they believe in is the right way to go, but let`s have that debate. Why don`t we just have an honest debate? Let`s just have an honest debate on the issues and then let the people decide which way we`re going to go.
BEHAR: Well, there will be some kind of an honest debate when Obama is running against one of these guys.
MOORE: Well no, there`ll be a debate between a sane guy, that would be Obama and if it`s one of the eight of the nine who are legitimately gone. I mean, when you say that you don`t believe in science. That you don`t -- I was so -- when he asked that question a couple of debates ago, you know, do you believe in science and only one person raised their hand, Jon Huntsman and the rest were like -- they couldn`t raise their hand on science, I mean, I was afraid next question was, you know, do you believe in math, anyone here for math. You see all their (INAUDIBLE), "I think so."
BEHAR: They`re scared to alienate the base. That`s what their problem is.
MOORE: Is the base what doesn`t like science?
BEHAR: The base -- they don`t know what the base really wants from them, I think. They`re scared to say anything that sounds progressive, like they believe in evolution, they believe in climate change, all those things, they`re afraid to say it or they`re mentally ill and should take a test.
MOORE: Well, let me -- can I give them some advice? I don`t know if they watch.
BEHAR: They`re not watching. Well, some people are watching, but I don`t Perry and...
MOORE: No, we must get some of the Nancy Grace audience.
BEHAR: The audience is, yes, but I`m talking about more the guys who are running, they`re not watching.
MOORE: They`re not watching. Well, maybe somebody who`s watching will tell them what I`m going to say.
BEHAR: OK, go ahead, say it.
MOORE: OK. America is not as crazy as you think. I mean, I really believe that the majority of Americans believe in science, they don`t believe Adam and Eve rode on dinosaurs 6,000 years ago. They believe something seems to be wrong with the weather, not quite sure what it is, but something just isn`t right. That`s really where most Americans are at.
BEHAR: Well, President Obama just said about Texas, they`re burning up the state with the heat and yet they don`t believe in global warming or climate change over there. I mean, they`re really going to burn themselves up, over there.
MOORE: Yeah, well, the Rick Perry prayer for rain thing, I guess, didn`t work.
BEHAR: It didn`t work. There was no rain, there was just more heat.
MOORE: Yeah.
BEHAR: Chris Christie, they`re begging him to come in. Do you think he will?
MOORE: I don`t know. I don`t know him personally. Should we call him up?
BEHAR: He keeps saying no.
MOORE: Let`s just call him, right now.
This is a terrible thing to say. Do you think the country will tolerate a fat president?
MOORE: Yes, because most of America looks like me. I mean, the majority of Americans are overweight, two-thirds.
BEHAR: But, don`t you think they want someone who looks healthy?
MOORE: No, I think they like somebody that`s like them. When George Bush said, "I`m a c student" and everyone applauded.
BEHAR: Yeah!
MOORE: You know, it`s because the majority of the country are not A students, the majority are B and C sometimes D students, and so he was not making a mistake when he said that and he thought he would get a good response and he did.
BEHAR: You know, by the way, I wanted to mention to you that recently Bush has been talking about,, you know, his whole term here, and he brought up the reading of "My Pet Goat" that was in your movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11." And he said that the way you presented it in that film was that he was like a deer in the headlights when they gave him the news that we had been attacked. But in fact he says he was just trying to think of what to say to the kids to not make everybody panic. Do you buy that?
MOORE: Really.
BEHAR: That`s what he said.
MOORE: Really. OK, well, then he wasn`t a very good president, the then, was he? If you`re the leader, you[re the commander in chief, is your concern that fact that you`ve been told that America, that`s all of America, is under attack or, no, I must consider the feelings of the children in the room. I mean, that`s such a cop-out and such a lie because it sounds good. I mean, who doesn`t care for someone who`s concerned about the feelings of the children in the room. But, if someone just told you the nation was under attack...
BEHAR: What would you do?
MOORE: You get up immediately. What would his dad do?
BEHAR: I don`t know.
MOORE: What would George Bush the first have done? Oh come on. Do you think George Bush the first would have sat there going -- no, I don`t think so. I don`t think so.
BEHAR: Couldn`t he have just said, "Excuse me children, I have to go to the bathroom, can I get a pass?" And leave?
MOORE: Yes, exactly. If you`re worried about the children, you say what you just said and then you get up and you leave and deal with it, you don`t sit there for another 10 minutes going -- can I give you the theory, actually, of why Bush sat there for 10 minutes or why they let him.
BEHAR: Yeah, go ahead.
MOORE: Because people let him sit there for 10 minutes, because I think everything went crazy in the White House, you know, they lifted Cheney up, they dragged him down to the bunker in the "Situation Room." They`re all down there, they`re trying to figure out, because they`re trying -- we`re under attack, we`ve got to figure out what we can do to protect this country, but if we don`t, they`re -- and then suddenly, about 10 minutes passes, somebody goes, where`s the president? Oh, he`s still in that classroom, somebody call and get him out of there. They completely forgot about him. They completely forgot about him.
BEHAR: You think so?
MOORE: Yes, I do think so, because they ran the country, not him and they were just like -- they were doing what we wanted them to do, which was to get busy and they just completely -- and he`s sitting there like a little boy lost, like, will somebody get me out of here? Where am I? Help.
BEHAR: I think he was scared. I think he was scared.
MOORE: Well, we were all scared. He`s a human being, OK?
BEHAR: I think he was absolutely stunned and scared. He`s like, what am I going to do.
MOORE: I just can`t imagine Obama sitting there for another 10 minutes -- and then he continued to read. Can you imagine Obama sitting there, can you imagine anybody that`s been a president in our lifetime, Reagan, Bush the first, any of them sitting there like that? Absolutely not. That explanation is B.S. and you know what, we`d have a lot more empathy for George W. Bush if he just came out what you said, I was scared, I didn`t know what to do, Cheney wasn`t here.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. We`re just getting started with you. So, stay right there, everybody. You stay right here, too.
MOORE: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Tomorrow, talk show titan, Larry King, sits down with Joy and weighs in on the presidential candidates, the Conrad Murray trial and more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Michael Moore.
OK Michael, Let`s talk about President Obama. Would you vote for him in 2012?
MOORE: I`ll make that decision in 2012.
BEHAR: Well, who you going to vote for? Rick Perry?
Well, I`m not voting for -- no, I`m not voting for a Republican.
BEHAR: Well who`s -- oh, so you`ll have a third party spoiler candidate, the way you had Ralph Nader back in the day with Al Gore and George W.
MOORE: No. I think it`s a mistake for President Obama to make the assumption, unfortunately, that he and his people in the White House have made for these first three years that people like me and millions like me are just going go along with anything and everything because we don`t have a choice. That`s so cynical.
BEHAR: I don`t think he`s done that.
Well yes, he has. He`s moved to the center and to the right during these first three years knowing that people on the left have no place else to go because of our two-party system, which is crazy to begin with. No other western democracy has two parties. You know, they have three parties, four parties, five parties, they have a choice.
BEHAR: Well, that`s something else, that`s a systemic problem that we should correct.
That`s another shell.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
We should correct that.
BEHAR: Yeah.
And we should not have the Electoral College and we should be voting on paper ballots, not on computerized things, just like they do in Canada, they still vote on a little piece of paper with a No. 2 pencil, never have any trouble, never have any complaints about it. They`re counted in three hours. The second largest land mass on earth, next to Russia and they`ve got...
BEHAR: Well, they don`t have as many people there.
Well, they have 35 million people, but they`ve got to bring the votes in by dogsled, zamboni, on the backs of baby seals.
(LAUGHTER)
I mean, there`s -- they get it done in three hours. That`s all I`m saying. I`m just saying...
BEHAR: Well, you know, the Republicans are talking about -- this bothers me, you know, I mean, he`s talking now, he`s getting his mojo back, quite a bit. He`s saying, let`s tax the very rich in this country which the Republicans now say is class warfare, which really amuses me, it`s so Orwellian, turn the truth around, now it`s class warfare to tax the rich rather than screw the poor, it`s class warfare. Where do they come up with this stuff?
Well, it`s beyond Orwell, actually, because they`re the ones who`ve attacked the middle class and the working class of this country, now for years that have made life worse for them. No, you can`t ask anybody in the middle class or the working class, hey, how`s your life after all these years since Ronald Reagan? You know, because everyone knows it`s not as good as what their parents had. Nobody -- you know, our parents -- fl. irst of all, you only needed one income for the whole household.
I had a guy at one of my book signings last week say to me that they had -- he went to U.C. Berkeley back in, I don`t know, the `60s and $75 a semester is all he paid. College was free, here in the Suny systems, here in New York. So...
BEHAR: And you got a great -- I went to Queens College, back then, $24 a term and we had the very similar curriculum to Columbia University.
OK, now how were we able to do that? How were we able to educate Joy Behar for $24 a semester and today we have to have our 22-year-olds leave college in hock, in debt up to their necks for the next 20 years?.
BEHAR: I know.
To where they can`t even breathe as a young person.
BEHAR: Well, didn`t Reagan disassemble the whole system in California?
Yes. He did that there as governor and then, as president, things began to change and he started putting the squeeze on working people, eliminating unions, trying to get rid of unions, which were the main engine of not just good wages for union workers, but when wages for union workers went up to be competitive, everybody else had to get paid a semi decent wage to compete. Get rid of unions, they don`t have to compete and you could make people grovel for what little they get.
BEHAR: Well, there`s good and bad with union. Unions get to be over powerful sometimes and they have to be pulled back. You know, there`s a lot of complaints about...
Well, what does that mean? There`s good and bad women, good and bad men.
BEHAR: Well, for example, in the teachers union in New York City, I guess, they`re getting a lot of flak now because of tenure for bad teachers. So, that means the system needs to be investigated, it doesn`t mean eliminate the union.
Right. You`re right. Well first of all, the teachers in New York are great. I`ve met so many of them over the years, here. They`re absolutely great. The head of their teachers` union is another story, Randi Weingarten. I don`t think she`s a force for good and I don`t think - - you know -- but that`s another whole show.
BEHAR: That`s another whole story.
Quit blaming the teachers.
BEHAR: Now you know, the thing about Obama, I have to say that a lot of people on the left are giving him a lot of flak, which goes against the Ronald Reagan edict, thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican, but on the left, we will do it.
Yeah, because we`re not robots. That`s right.
BEHAR: I know that, but I don`t know.
So, that`s good. In democracy, you want people to speak up, you want people say things. Listen, all of us who voted for President Obama, it was one of the most important days of our lives. It was historic.
BEHAR: That`s right.
It was historic and he has done a lot of good, but he has not stood...
BEHAR: I want to tell you what he did. I have a list, here.
Yeah. I`ll just be your straight man.
BEHAR: He did get a health care program in, which means that people....
Not a good one.
BEHAR: Not perfect.
Not perfect, not even here until 2014. If the Republicans take over next year, there won`t be 2014. That was a huge mistake to put that off. Huge mistake to put off...
BEHAR: What about people who had pre-existing conditions, they can now get health care.
Good, that`s what I`m saying. He`s done many good things, yes. And children.
BEHAR: He god rid of "Don`t Ask, Don`t Tell," which was a cancer on the system, in my opinion.
Absolutely.
BEHAR: Saved GM, thousands of jobs been saved, they paid the money back, a few of the banks have paid back, right?
But it`s also...
BEHAR: He saved the economy and he caught Osama bin Laden. Why aren`t those things being put out there by the left?
No, why aren`t -- well, first, why doesn`t his own people fashion a message that would convince most Americans to vote for him again? That`s not really my responsibility or anybody else`s responsibility. My responsibility is to say, OK, yes, you`ve done something great here by saving these jobs at General Motor, but president Obama, you are in charge essentially of a transportation company. This is the time to take those factories and start doing the conversion that we`re going to need in this century to have fast trains, to have light rail, to have..
BEHAR: But they won`t give him the money, Michael. Where`s he going to...
No, they don`t need the -- tis will support itself by the fact that - - you have to, first of all, stop these wars. This is $2 billion a week.
BEHAR: Doesn`t he have to get the cooperation of Congress to do everything? They don`t seem to be it to him.
He had both houses of Congress and he -- that was just fettered away and he didn`t -- he didn`t -- I mean, we lost a couple of years, there. Now in the fourth quarter...
BEHAR: Is it too late?
It`s not too late. He can come in, in the fourth quarter, like he`s doing this week, and start saying, damn it, this is the way it`s going to be, the rich are going to pay their taxes and we`re not touching Social Security and that`s that.
BEHAR: OK. Next, I`m going to ask Michael Moore about Morgan Freeman`s comment about the Tea Party being racist. That was something new. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The Conrad Murray trial is going to be interesting because it involves Michale Jackson. That alone is compelling to watch. We want to hear some of the ins and outs of Michael`s life. There`s a lot of stuff that`s going to come out and I personally am looking forward to learning some of that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Oscar winner, Michael Moore. His new book is called "Here Comes Trouble."
OK, Michael, I want to show you a moment from the GOP debate, last week. Let`s watch.
MOORE: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 2010 when I was deployed to Iraq, I had to lie about who I was because I`m a gay soldier and I didn`t want to lose my job. My question is, under one of your presidencies, do you intend to circumvent the progress that`s been made for gay and lesbian soldiers in the military?
CROWD: (BOOING)
SEN RICK SANTORUM (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Yeah, I would say any type of sexual activity has absolutely no place in the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, Santorum just stood there like a big mo-mo, speak up and say, you know, I don`t agree with the booing. They said nothing.
MOORE: Right. Yeah, actually I said on "Bill Maher," the other night, they may not have been booing because that soldier looked pretty buff and I think that audience of Republicans was oohing,.
BEHAR: You think so?
MOORE: That`s just possible. I don`t know.
BEHAR: I don`t think so.
MOORE: Take a look at that soldier, though, you know, a lot of, you know, what I`m saying. But, especially some senators, you know, Republican senators are, you know, are Liberal in that way. But what, I think the funnier part is really is, Santorum saying that there`s no place for sex or sexual activity in the military. It`s like, boy, put that on the recruitment poster, it would be the end of war.
(LAUGHTER)
No guys would join.
BEHAR: I know, it`s true. And they also booed an uninsured patient at previous debates. I mean, there seems to be a lot of hatred at these debates?
MOORE: Wow. Yeah, that`s amazing, isn`t it? The other side. You know, the people that don`t want to keep the children`s health care program going.
BEHAR: But it`s so obvious for us that Americans should not be voting for these people. They will take away all the safety net.
MOORE: They didn`t. They didn`t before.
BEHAR: They don`t care if you`re dying on a gurney, if you`re not insured, it`s like die, dog.
MOORE: Just remember -- remember, Joy, yes, that`s the way they`re loud, but they`re not the majority. OK? We`ve had now three elections, 2000, 2004, 2008, by the popular vote, the majority of Americans have wanted the Liberal guy, not the conservative guy. Three in two of the three elections. In 2000 and...
BEHAR: I know, but the polls are scary. I mean, Sarah Palin is only five points behind Obama if he were running against her now.
MOORE: No, no. Well, McCain got 47 percent of the vote. I mean, yeah, no, they`re large, it`s large, but they`re not the majority. The majority of Americans, if you want to site the polls again, last month said 54 percent of the American public now supports gay marriage across the country.
BEHAR: Right. they finally came around on that.
MOORE: But no, but most Americans do come around to the Liberal position, 70 percent were in favor of the war, now 70 percent are against the war. I mean, you go down, the majority of Americans believe women should be paid the same as men, they want strong environmental laws...
BEHAR: But, I always feel that the Liberal position benefits the middle class and the working class in this country.
MOORE: Well, it does, that`s why the Liberals usually win...
BEHAR: But in that book, "What`s the Matter with Kansas," that tells that these -- that people like that, who would normally benefit from the Liberal policies, go against their own instincts and vote for the other side. I never understand why they would do that.
MOORE: That`s because they`re manipulated with fear and blaming the wrong person, blaming some group of people, blaming the other. And historically, that`s not just in America, that has been, that has worked for hundreds and hundreds of years. And so it`s really been our job to just put the truth out there, put the information out there and then let people make up their minds.
BEHAR: Well, we really -- I mean, I grew up in a working class family. My father was a truck driver, my mother was a sewing machine operator. We really relied on the unemployment insurance, she was like seasonal, my poor mother. You know? I mean, we care about that because it benefits people like my family and maybe yours.
MOORE: Right, and if you were raised, I don`t know if you were -- I was raised Catholic but, you know...
BEHAR: I was raised Catholic, also. When we come back, America`s favorite whistle-blower, we`ll talk about when he first started blowing whistles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Michael Moore. You know, I interviewed Levi Jonston the other day, and he told me that he is the most hated man in Alaska. But you are the most hated man in America.
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: And Hawaii.
BEHAR: According to -- well, you`re the second most hatred.
MOORE: I`m sorry. After Sean Penn.
BEHAR: Sean Penn is more hated.
MOORE: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: And you say that you`re hated, I believe, in parts of your book.
MOORE: No, after my Oscar speech back in 2003, which was during the first week of the war and after I made "Fahrenheit 9/11" I was crucified by a certain news channel and other people on hate radio and it was difficult to just walk around.
BEHAR: You were threatened, I`m sure.
MOORE: Oh, yeah, more than that. Now, it`s not that way anymore. I mean the country has changed and things are different. But seven years ago, that wasn`t the case.
BEHAR: Taking an unpopular position, it`s very tricky.
MOORE: Well, I think it`s what makes a lot of people afraid to take a position and take a stand.
BEHAR: Of course.
MOORE: Because you do have to stick your neck out there a bit.
BEHAR: And physically -- you are afraid physically, I mean it`s not just that people are going to write things about you. Because who cares about that.
MOORE: Right.
BEHAR: You know, they`re going to come and firebomb your house. Well, no, you`d better be quiet. And that`s how it works.
MOORE: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I`ve just got to trust most Americans are again, not of that ilk.
BEHAR: Of course not, most Americans are nice people.
MOORE: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: Now, let`s listen to what Morgan Freeman said.
MOORE: OK. Sure.
BEHAR: He said that Tea Party, quote "... believes" -- this is what the quote is "screw the country, we`re going to do whatever we do to get this black man out of here. He`s saying that they`re racist in the Tea Party. And that`s his -- do you think that that`s hyperbolic or overzealous on his point?
MOORE: No, I think there`s -- I think there`s some truth in it. Absolutely. Yes. I mean all you have to do is look at the signs at the demonstrations, and it`s a little scary in terms of their attitudes about race and what`s motivating them. Only they know that, only they have to speak to their own conscience and to their god about how they feel about President Obama on a racial level. But I wouldn`t disagree with what Morgan Freeman said.
BEHAR: Do you think -- I think that there are some racists who voted for him or were on his side. I bit there are racists that voted for him.
MOORE: I think it`s very possible that a lot of white Americans, not a lot, but a certain number of them had to push through their own personal racism to fix the country ...
BEHAR: Right.
MOORE: Because they knew that was the right thing to do.
BEHAR: And you know. They did it.
MOORE: ... and they had suffered through George W. Bush and they did it, they put aside maybe years of prejudice that they`ve been holding on to do the right thing. So, that was a good thing.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s talk about your book. Now, you`re trying to be a priest ...
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: But you got kicked out of the seminary? What did you do?
MOORE: Well, actually, I went into -- resigned. I went -- I mean when I was a freshman in high school and by the end of freshman year, the hormones had kicked in and I read the rules, and certain things you can`t do. And so ...
BEHAR: You were raised catholic, though?
MOORE: Oh yes, sure, yes. I was raised catholic, yes.
BEHAR: Aren`t you disappointed in the way that whole priest scandal (inaudible)?
MOORE: Well, I`m very -- I`m hugely disappointed in this institution ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: ... not in Catholics, so -- or people -- Catholic Church, which was made of the people.
BEHAR: They do a lot of good deeds.
MOORE: Oh, my god.
BEHAR: A lot of good things.
MOORE: Of course. I mean this is -- I still go to mass. I`m, you know, I`m somewhat practicing, somewhat recovering catholic. But the institution, yes, I mean there was -- crimes were committed and the priests who committed the crimes maybe need help, but the people who covered it up, the bishops.
BEHAR: Those are the real gangsters.
MOORE: Those are the real -- I`m sorry. You`re right.
BEHAR: Those are the thugs.
MOORE: Well, that is true. I don`t understand. Believe me, if they were Kiwanis, they would have all been in jail by now, if they were heads of the Kiwanis Club here and the Kiwanis Club there, they wouldn`t -- and they had done this to kids, I mean that would have been the end of it, because of bishops, they got away with it.
BEHAR: Yeah.
MOORE: You know.
BEHAR: Who do you think is better recovering up things, the church or the government?
MOORE: Wall Street. I think Wall Street and corporate America number one. There`s a huge protest going on down there, on Wall Street, that`s been going on now for about ten days. And it`s growing. And I think people -- you`re going to see this happen all over the country, because eventually peoples have had their homes foreclosed, people lost their health insurance, they lost their jobs. They`re going to rise up and they`re going to say, I`ve had it. I`m going to take a stand, I`m an American, this is a democracy and I`m not going to sit on the couch anymore and take it.
BEHAR: What does it take to get people to take to the streets? In my day, we were all over the streets, we were marching on Washington. That`s because there was a draft and there was Vietnam. I mean you don`t have a draft now, you have to -- people are slowly dying here, it seems financially.
MOORE: It is starting, but it`s finally -- it is starting and you`re going to see more of it and the first spark of it is happening right now down near Wall Street. And you`re going to see more of it. So there you go.
BEHAR: OK. Now, you say that there was a turning point in your life at graduation night. Do you remember what you wrote?
MOORE: Oh, yes. Yeah. The assistant principal, every boy was supposed to be wearing a tie. And the boy in front of me had on a string tie.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And the assistant principal said, that`s not a tie, even though it is a tie, and it was kind of a poor kid, he just yanked him out of the line and kicked him out of graduation and didn`t even let him go on the stage, because he didn`t have a tie. And I had just been elected to the school board the previous Monday. I was the first 18-year-old to be elected right after 18 year-olds got the right to vote. And I just stood there and I didn`t say anything. And here I was on the--
BEHAR: Why didn`t you say anything?
MOORE: Maybe I was afraid. I don`t -- I didn`t want to get thrown out, too, my parents were out there, I was going to go -- I mean for all the reasons everybody watching is afraid to say or do anything. Because you don`t want to upset the apple cart, because you might lose your job, because somebody might be upset at you, because I might get kicked out of graduation. But the next day, his mother called crying telling me what she found him in the back seat of their car, all curled up in a ball, bawling his eyes out for two hours, because he worked for 12 years going to school and now he couldn`t graduate because of a tie. And it was just -- it was just one of these little things, you know, it`s always a little thing sometimes in your life.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And I just decided that day, that`s the last time I`m going to be silent.
BEHAR: I`m not keeping my mouth shut.
MOORE: I`m not keeping my mouth shut anymore, I`m going to stand up for the person who`s getting kicked out, a person who doesn`t have something.
BEHAR: You know, children are not taught to speak up. You know, I was never told to shut-up, I often say this on television. No one in my family ever said, shut-up, Joy, seriously. And when I tell that, a lot of women are like really? Oh, my God! I was always told, be quiet, go inside.
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: Not me.
MOORE: Now, my wife and I when our daughter was little, we always -- we encouraged -- we allowed her to say no a certain amount of the time.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And we taught her that no was a good word.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And we thought that would -- that would serve her well growing up.
BEHAR: Well, you agree with Nancy Reagan on that one.
MOORE: So ...
BEHAR: Now, you know what -- tell me about Beeper, because you went - - people don`t remember, Ronald Reagan back in the day went to Bitburg (ph) ...
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: ... to basically ...
MOORE: ... lay a wreath ...
BEHAR: Lay a wreath ...
MOORE: at the graves of -- at Nazi SS soldiers.
BEHAR: They were not just foot soldiers.
MOORE: No, no. SS. They were SS.
BEHAR:: Which was the most horrifying group ...
MOORE: Correct. Yes.
BEHAR: Really rounding up the Jews and everything else they did that was bad ...
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: And yet he wanted to lay a wreath ...
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: And that was a big controversy at the time.
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: You were there?
MOORE: I was there, well, I was sitting in flint with my friend eating some godfather`s pizza -- and no -- and my friend, Gary, who`s -- both of his parents were survivors of Auschwitz.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And he was very upset. And I said, why don`t we just get on a plane and fly over there?
BEHAR: Wow, that was good.
MOORE: And we did, we just like -- out of the blue, I don`t know, we were 20 something years old ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: We just got on a plane and went over there. And we brought a bed sheet and we`d written on the bed sheet, that it came from Michigan to remind -- we came from Michigan to remind you, they murdered my family, meaning Gary`s family. And Reagan -- it`s just -- we got inside, we had to sneak in past all these Germans, and it`s a much longer story in the book. But basically, Pierre Salinger, who was with ABC at the time helped us and basically prevented us from getting clubbed, because we`d said to him, look, you know, we`re here to do this action but we`re afraid that German cops are going to hurt us. And he said, that`s OK, I`ll be right there with my camera. Because, you know, the last thing the Germans want today is footage going out of them beating a Jew in the Bitburg cemetery. So -- so when Reagan`s limo pulls up, and we whipped out this bed sheet, and, you know, Reagan was all confused, but Nancy knew exactly what we were doing, you know.
BEHAR: She--
MOORE: She gave us the laser eyes.
BEHAR: Yeah. Do you think Reagan had the beginning of Alzheimer`s at that time, that`s what his son says?
MOORE: You know, all through his presidency, there -- I mean the man was there and not there. Who knows? And I am not a doctor, but I would trust his son to know that.
BEHAR: I mean really, a lot of those SS guys were still alive, they might have been around there, you know, walking around that cemetery. Not all of them were dead.
MOORE: As soon as Reagan and all the press left the cemetery, a whole bunch of Germans poured in and held their own ceremony. They were so upset, and they just brought flowers, and more wreaths and everything, laying them on the SS graves. So -- but that`s -- it`s just yeah, that`s just something, it`s one of the -- one of these weird experiences I`ve had in my life before I was a filmmaker.
BEHAR: Yeah. I mean you also met Robert Kennedy as a kid?
MOORE: Yes. I was 11 years old. Yes.
BEHAR: And tell me that story.
MOORE: I was lost -- I was lost in the Capitol building and accidentally walked into the Senate elevator. I was separated from my parents and I was crying. And he put the paper down, and it was Bobby Kennedy. I knew who it was. Bobby Kennedy. And he took me to help find my mom and stayed with me until they -- until they found her.
BEHAR: Oh, isn`t that sweet?
MOORE: To comfort me. That was really ...
BEHAR: But you were scared probably, you lost your mommy?
MOORE: Yes. You know I was scared, yeah, plus I was around all those senators and congressmen.
BEHAR: I know. And you were a cute little boy.
MOORE: I don`t know about that. Vulnerable.
BEHAR: You know, you know, you`re calling for a boycott of Georgia, I understand, because and you want to pull your book after the execution of Troy Davis?
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: That was kind of unbelievable, I went to bed, the guy was alive, people protesting, there wasn`t enough evidence to put the guy to death and the next day I wake up, the Supreme Court says, kill him.
MOORE: Yes.
BEHAR: I couldn`t believe it.
MOORE: Yeah. Yeah. I was -- neither could I. And it was -- even death penalty advocate, pro-death penalty people like Bob Barr ...
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: A congressman from Georgia said, don`t kill him.
BEHAR: Why would they ....
MOORE: This is because we`re going to lose the death penalty if we start executing innocent people, don`t kill this kid.
BEHAR: Yes.
MOORE: And they did.
BEHAR: Couldn`t they stretch it out a little longer?
MOORE: And maybe a day --give it a day or two.
BEHAR: I mean why did they rush to that?
MOORE: Yeah. Now, because that`s who they are, that`s what they`re about. The next morning I asked my publisher to pull all my books from Georgia bookstores. I didn`t want -- I don`t want any commerce in my name being done. They said it was impossible for them to do that, that was already shipped and out there. And -- so then I`ve just said, well, then I`m donating my royalties whatever`s sold there in Georgia to the Innocence Project and to a voter registration drive in Georgia, because 600,000 African-Americans in Georgia in the last election were not registered. 600,000. So I`m going to do my part to help that voter registration drive and get these people out of office that support the death penalty.
BEHAR: You know, what, Michael, I`m very glad that you`re out there. Aren`t we glad? This audience is glad.
MOORE: Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you.
BEHAR: We`re glad that you`re out there, and just doing what you do.
MOORE: Well, that`s -- well, thank you. That`s very kind of you.
BEHAR: And we love what you do, the way you do it. His new book is called "Here Comes Trouble." You`d better believe it. We`ll be right back.
MOORE: You just got in trouble for saying all that. Thank you. Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up next, a preview of what to expect in the trial of Michael Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The jury has been selected and opening arguments begin tomorrow in the trial of Conrad Murray, the doctor charged with involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson over two years ago. Here to talk about what we can expect in what should be one of the most publicized trials ever, Jane Velez Mitchell, host of HLN`s "Issues With Jane Velez- Mitchell. And Leslie Crocker Snyder, former New York state and supreme court justice and former prosecutor. Jane, what do we know about the makeup of this jury? I was reading some of the -- some of it. It`s interesting group. Tell me.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Yeah, it`s a very interesting group, but one headline, there`s only one African- American on the panel, which I personally don`t think is that big an issue, because race is not a factor in this case. Both the defendant and the victim are black males, so I think it kind of becomes a non-issue. Far more interesting to me is the fact that at least half a dozen of them, , half the jury describes themselves as Michael Jackson fans. That in my opinion is a huge win for the prosecution for obvious reasons, they`re fans of Michael Jackson and likely to be upset about somebody who did something allegedly untoward to him. So, of all the things, I think that is the biggest, biggest, biggest news.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that, Leslie?
LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think that many of us are Michael Jackson fans. But if you`re a Michael Jackson fan, you also know about a lot of the issues in his life and those issues don`t necessarily help the prosecution, I.e. o. his drug addiction, all his drug problems. You like him, but jurors are very conscientious, I think they`re going to focus on the evidence.
BEHAR: OK. Well, that`s a positive spin on jurors. Jane, the jurors were sworn in after just one day of questioning. What`s the rush? Where are they going?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah. Where`s the fire?
BEHAR: Yeah.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If that -- one of the defense attorneys called it speed dating ...
BEHAR: No, no, no.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what it was like to pick this jury.
BEHAR: And it was really ...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I know. I mean it is very fast. Let me tell you something. I was talking to a Michael Jackson fan out here. And it took me 20 minutes before I figured out that she thinks Michael Jackson is still alive, OK? So, you want to be able to really question these jurors to see whether or not they have any weird conspiracy theories.
BEHAR: Maybe the judge has a share in the Bahamas, you never know.
SNYDER: Now, I see this judge as a very strong controlling judge who`s going to run a tight courtroom, which I approve of and isn`t going to let a lot of garbage go on. So, this really isn`t that quick a jury selection. Because they had a huge pool, they had to screen the pool ...
BEHAR: Yeah.
SNYDER: They agreed on getting rid of people, and they had a jury questionnaire. We don`t have jury questionnaires in a lot of cases. So, these lawyers knew a lot about each juror. So, it really isn`t speed jury selection, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, I don`t think ...
(CROSSTALK)
SNYDER: Absolutely.
BEHAR: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I was quoting the defense attorney, but I have to say that all this is going down at the very same courthouse as the O.J. Simpson case in the mid-90s. And we all remember how Judge Lance Ito let things get out of hand really became ridiculed for it. So I agree with you that this judge wants to make sure that he imposes discipline.
BEHAR: But, you know, they were asked if they followed the O.J. Simpson case or Casey Anthony. And why is that an important thing? What`s the difference?
SNYDER: Well, O.J. so long ago, and only two of them, I think it was said they followed it. I don`t think that really matters.
BEHAR: Right. Right.
SNYDER: ... to anybody. Casey Anthony, such a different kind of case. But I think an awful lot of people in the country feel that justice wasn`t done. Now, you know, we may all disagree or agree. But I think that--
BEHAR: They may feel that way about him, too, because they`re such fans of Michael Jackson.
SNYDER: That`s possible.
BEHAR: So -- and Jane, this jury isn`t even going to be sequestered, I found that hard to believe. This is going to be a media circus.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And that`s why it`s significant that they followed O.J. and they followed Casey Anthony, because if they`re media buffs, it might take a lot of willpower for them to stay away from the media. And not check things. So, there are people including a jury consultant I talked to who said I`m predicting a mistrial. That`s what this jury consultant said, because Michael Jackson is everywhere. And if they are people who are media buffs and they like to kind of check the Internet and also there`s this question of -- they`re going to go home at night and ignorant people who don`t know the laws they`re going to maybe go up to them, having figured out that they are jurors and express their opinion to them.
BEHAR: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it`s very dangerous not to have these sequestered.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you think?
SNYDER: Well, first of all, juries are almost never sequestered now, I mean it`s so expensive. And it used to be that they always were and now it`s that they almost always are not. And judges are under pressure not to. And I think -- in except in high profile cases, most jurors are going to focus on what the evidence is.
BEHAR: I don`t see why they can`t spend the money on sequestered jurors. And how many of these cases are going to come up?
SNYDER: They`re very, very expensive. I`ll tell you that.
BEHAR: I know, but there are so few of them.
SNYDER: There is that pressure. And we`ll just have to see what happens. But, you know, a judge in New York just last week or a week or two ago made jurors sign an oath that they would not read or listen to or go to any of the social media during the trial. And it`s the first time anyone has ever done anything like that. But it`s pretty hard to stop human beings from being human beings.
BEHAR: Do you think he can get a fair trial, Conrad Murray?
SNYDER: I think he probably will get a fair trial, because this is a good judge and he is going to keep things under control and he`s going to keep things very tight and he`s going to keep reminding the jury that they have to make their verdict based upon the law and the evidence.
BEHAR: They say, you know, the judge will not allow other doctors to talk about his drug history, Michael`s drug history.
SNYDER: He`s going to allow -- he`s going to allow in some medical records. But what he`s trying to do, and I think he`s absolutely right in those. As he keep it focused on the time frame around Michael Jackson`s death, because he`s saying what happened four months before or what happened two years before is not really relevant. And legally he`s absolutely right.
BEHAR: OK. Jane, thanks for your inside, and we`ll be checking in with you on the weeks to come. More with Leslie, when we come back. Bye, Jane.
I`m back with my Leslie Crocker Snyder talking about the Conrad Murray trial. OK, now, the kids, Michael Jackson`s kids may be called to testify. What do you think about that? What are they going to say?
SNYDER: Well, the prosecution may be interested in calling the older son who, Prince, because he was called into the room at the time of the terrible event.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s true.
SNYDER: So, but if they don`t really need him, they`d only be calling him for emotional support. They might need him if they feel that the bodyguard Alvarez wasn`t really credible about what was going on in the room. But otherwise I think it would be strictly an emotional ploy.
BEHAR: I see. OK, now. Do you think that Conrad Murray will take the stand? Because remember that Casey Anthony did not take the stand.
SNYDER: Well, no lawyer is ever going to make that decision, as you know, until they see how the evidence goes in. If the evidence goes in strongly against Conrad Murray, then they may have him take the witness stand because they`d be there, that they feel they have nothing to lose, their case is very strong.
But it`s not a decision any competent lawyer will make until the very last minute. And then, technically it`s absolutely up to the defendant, although a good defense lawyer controls the defendant.
BEHAR: Let me ask you something. A lot of times you`ll hear of cases where a doctor is sued for malpractice, because the patient died due to negligence. Usually they don`t -- they`re not brought up on criminal charges. In this case he is going to -- he could go to jail. What is the difference between this case and a typical doctor who loses a patient?
SNYDER: Well, this is without any question, a civil malpractice case, if this were brought as a simple malpractice case, I don`t see any way out for this doctor.
BEHAR: Right.
SNYDER: But this is an extreme malpractice case that went so far. There was such gross negligence the prosecution alleges that there was a foreseeable risk of death or serious bodily injury. And that is a step further than malpractice. Now, can they prove that? Remember, the burden of proof, obviously, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: In a criminal case ...
SNYDER: Right.
BEHAR: Yes.
SNYDER: So that they have a higher burden of proof, the prosecution and they feel that this was a lot more than malpractice.
That it went beyond that into the criminal arena.
BEHAR: And do you agree with that?
SNYDER: Well, from what I know of the evidence, it was certainly tenable that it did. But until we hear all the evidence, it`s very hard to know.
BEHAR: Wouldn`t they have to prove that it was deliberate and premeditated?
SNYDER: No, this is not an intentional murder. This is ...
BEHAR: Accidental.
SNYDER: Gross negligence, no. Foreseeable negligence, foreseeable -- bodily, serious bodily injury or death. Not an intentional murder.
BEHAR: Do you think that any of Michael Jackson`s siblings will have to go on the stand?
SNYDER: Only frankly if they have something to contribute and from what I`ve heard about the case, I don`t know what that would be from an evidentiary point of view right now.
BEHAR: Well, there`s all sorts of feelings on the family that he was murdered and that that was a conspiracy.
SNYDER: Right, but their feelings are not going to come in.
BEHAR: Feelings are not facts.
SNYDER: Especially with this judge. He`s not going to make this a circus. He seems to be very much in control.
BEHAR: OK. Thanks very much, Leslie.
SNYDER: It`s good to see you.
BEHAR: And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
