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Joy Behar Page
Conrad Murray Trial; Addiction in Hollywood; Interview With Gloria Estefan
Aired September 28, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, on day one of the Conrad Murray trial, jurors heard the disturbing audiotapes of drugged Michael Jackson slurring his words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people leave my show --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today, they heard about the chaos inside the superstar`s bedroom in the minutes leading up to his death. Joy will have the latest.
Then, troubled actor Tom Sizemore knows all about the drug-enabling culture surrounding celebrities. He`ll explain his connection to Michael Jackson`s doctor and how he was able to escape a fate similar to the king of pop.
Plus Gloria Estefan turns up the heat in Joy`s studio.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Stunning revelations today in the second day of the Dr. Conrad Murray trial. He is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson. One shocker: Murray`s strange request for a ride back to the house as Michael lay dead in the hospital.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Do you recall an incident where Dr. Murray approached you and made a request that you found odd?
MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER PERSONAL ASSISTANT: Yes. He asked -- he said that there`s some cream in Michael`s room or house that he wouldn`t want the world to know about. And he requested that I or someone give him a ride back to the house to get it, so the world wouldn`t know about the cream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: This after the prosecution accused Dr. Murray yesterday of gross negligence. The defense countered that Jackson caused his own death by self-administering Propofol.
With me now to talk all about today`s developments are Mark Geragos, defense attorney and former attorney to Michael Jackson in his 2005 child molestation trial; Rikki Klieman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.
Ok. Mark, let`s start with you. Murray wanted to return to Michael Jackson`s house to retrieve some "cream", quote-unquote, as Michael lay dead in the hospital. What do you make of that? What cream?
MARK GERAGOS, FORMER ATTORNEY OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, actually, I don`t want to speculate what the cream was. But actually, I think that that helps Murray`s case that he`s at least concerned about Michael and what may happen to Michael. I don`t know why the prosecution thinks that`s significant or helpful to their case coming right out of the box was one of the first witnesses.
BEHAR: You agree with that, Rikki? It sounds suspicious to me.
RIKKI KLIEMAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s suspicious to me.
BEHAR: Yes.
KLIEMAN: I think where Murray wanted to go back was not to retrieve any cream. Murray wanted to go up -- if you`re the prosecutor, you want to convince the jury he wanted to go back and he wanted to clean up the crime scene. He wanted to get rid of stuff.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s what it sounds like to me, Mark. Sorry.
GERAGOS: You two are so jaded. Just because the guy -- maybe he decided he wanted to go back there because he wanted to help out and didn`t want something to be found that was going to embarrass Michael. I don`t know why you always have to default to the most suspicious thing.
BEHAR: Oh, no, I don`t know.
KLIEMAN: Well, Mark, that`s why you`re a good defense lawyer. The reality is, as it stays out there now.
GERAGOS: I`m not jaded.
KLIEMAN: Well, I think it`s just a bad fact. And it looks like Murray is really looking to see what might be incriminating.
BEHAR: Ok. Now After this request, Michael`s assistant, Amir Williams and his bodyguard put the Jackson`s home in lockdown. Were they - - do you think they were suspicious of Conrad Murray? Why did they put it down in lockdown?
KLIEMAN: I think there`s two reasons they could have put it down in lockdown. The prosecution certainly believes that the reason they put it in lockdown is that Conrad Murray is the last person to be with Michael Jackson who calls up and says, there is a problem here. I have a problem here.
And they want to on the prosecution side really preserve and not let any in there. On the other side, they just don`t want any intruders in there.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Mark, go ahead.
GERAGOS: I think it`s really -- it`s really the latter. I`ve been around them. He`s always had a lot of security. He always had intruders around or looky-loos around. I think that that`s just standard security and lock it down.
BEHAR: All right. Ok. Now, Williams, this Amir Williams, he waited two months to tell the cops this cream story. Mark, why do you think he waited so long?
GERAGOS: I don`t know, maybe he was trying to sell the story first and then couldn`t sell it and told the cops. I have no idea what the motivation was.
BEHAR: And we`re negative.
GERAGOS: What?
BEHAR: And we`re the negative ones, Rikki and I?
GERAGOS: Well, I`m a little jaded about the --
BEHAR: You`re a little jaded?
GERAGOS: -- way the prosecution is already putting on their case. I mean why not just get to the medical issues in this case and be done with what I always characterize as kind of they didn`t act the right evidence. I think that that always is not a good default position for prosecutors to take. Get in -- for jurors especially, why does this case have to be five weeks? This is a case that should be done in five days.
KLIEMAN: Well, they certainly have to set up what happened and show, first of all, how does Conrad Murray get involved with Michael Jackson? Why is he hired? He`s hired to maintain Jackson`s health. He`s hired to make sure that Jackson can go through this concert tour.
BEHAR: Right.
KLIEMAN: And so they have to set up why he`s hired and then, of course, they`re setting up what happened. I mean we have to know what happened before we can go behind it and get to the science.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Yes. But why does that take five weeks? That`s beyond me. Why does it take five weeks?
BEHAR: Well, you tell us. Why? Why?
GERAGOS: Because I think that there`s a tendency in circumstantial evidence cases for prosecutors to over-try the case. I don`t think -- and I`m not saying Dave Walgren is doing that so far but that`s something that I`ve seen a lot out of this prosecutor`s office and out of other prosecutors` offices. I don`t know why this case shouldn`t just be streamlined down.
Why do we have to know frankly why he was hired? He was hired because he was a doctor. Michael wanted a doctor. So what? What does that get to the fundamental point, which is did Dr. Murray cause Michael Jackson`s death? That`s the question. We should move to it.
BEHAR: But he has a lot of things. Why did he wait to call -- he waited. He called Michael`s assistant before he dialed 911. I think that`s suspicious. That doesn`t look right.
KLIEMAN: It certainly doesn`t look right. And I think that although one might call this a circumstantial case, there are all kinds of things that Dr. Conrad Murray allegedly did that would go to this gross negligence, this standard of care that is so beyond the pale.
One of those things is, for heaven`s sake, why wouldn`t you call 911? He didn`t know how to administer CPR correctly. Are you kidding me? He`s a doctor.
BEHAR: Yes. Go ahead, mark.
GERAGOS: Well, I was just going to say though, Rikki, the part about him not knowing how to administer CPR is surprising. That is a bad fact. Not calling 911, but for that -- I mean if you`re a doctor and especially if somebody is in cardiac arrest and you`re supposedly a cardiac specialist, why are you going to call an EMT to come on and attend to somebody who`s in cardiac arrest? I would rather have a doctor.
But I guess the down-side to that or the back-side to that, is here he`s claiming he doesn`t know how to do CPR, which is a little surprising.
BEHAR: That`s unbelievable.
KLIEMAN: Well, it`s unbelievable because citizens know how to do CPR. Cops and the EMT`s know how to do CPR.
BEHAR: Exactly.
KLIEMAN: The idea that he didn`t even get him to a flat surface -- even I know that you have to get someone to a flat surface.
BEHAR: Right. I even know that and I don`t know --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes. Let me go to this one. Another member of Michael Jackson`s security team also testified today. Listen to what he has to say about the scene in the house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAHEEM MUHAMMAD, HEAD OF MICHAEL JACKSON`S SECURITY: Paris was on the ground balled up crying and Prince was standing there and he was just -- you know, he just had a real shock. You know, just slowly crying type of look on his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, so there`s a trauma there, right?
KLIEMAN: Terrible for the children. And Mark knows this family. I mean these poor children to have been in that house when this takes place and then, of course, the body is taken out --
GERAGOS: It`s just awful.
KLIEMAN: -- it`s terrible. Actually my heart goes out to these children, as I`m sure Mark says and all of us here. And the idea that they may be called as a witness I really find disturbing.
BEHAR: And also, Mark, why show this picture of the lifeless body of Michael Jackson? What is the point of that, Mark?
GERAGOS: I don`t know. Look, I lived through the Child Protective Services investigation with these kids and spent an inordinate amount of time with these kids. They are -- I can`t tell you how precocious they are. Paris is the most -- one of the most impressive little girls at the time that I ever would have met. So I don`t think that they`re ever going to call them, although the defense might.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much, guys.
And we`ll have more on the Conrad Murray trial after the break.
Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Actor Tom Sizemore rose to success after appearing in such films as "Natural Born Killers," "Blackhawk Down," "Saving Private Ryan" but while starring in these films he was waging a very public battle addiction including several arrests and multiple trips to rehab.
Here to talk about the drug culture in Hollywood and how he escaped a fate similar to Michael Jackson is Tom Sizemore. Hi Tom. How are you?
TOM SIZEMORE, ACTOR, "HAWAII FIVE-O": Hi, I`m good thanks. How are you?
BEHAR: Ok, so you`re a recovering -- a recovering drug addict yourself, right?
SIZEMORE: Yes, I am.
BEHAR: How many months, years, months, days?
SIZEMORE: I was -- I`m glad it`s years, its two years and 116 days.
BEHAR: Two years and 100 -- yes, good for you. I mean, I remember meeting you over at "The View" when you were there a few years ago, and you -- you seemed nervous and sweaty.
SIZEMORE: I was doing drugs.
BEHAR: You -- you were on something. We all knew it.
SIZEMORE: Really?
BEHAR: Yes, we knew it. We`re not as dumb as we look.
SIZEMORE: You didn`t look dumb either. Everybody knew it.
BEHAR: Yes we knew it.
SIZEMORE: Matt knew it then everybody is --
BEHAR: Matt -- Matt -- who Lauer?
SIZEMORE: Matt Damon.
BEHAR: Oh Matt -- Matt Damon.
SIZEMORE: And then Tom knew it, you know I was confronted about that.
BEHAR: Oh yes, because you were so sweaty and nervous.
SIZEMORE: I was so -- I wasn`t nervous, I was really high on the cocaine.
BEHAR: You were high.
SIZEMORE: Yes.
BEHAR: And yet, you still went on TV, though. Why bother? Why go on television at that point?
SIZEMORE: Because we were scheduled to go on and Steven Spielberg was in charge, what are you going to do?
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: He`s going on there and make a fool of yourself.
BEHAR: But Spielberg didn`t say anything to you? Like hey --
SIZEMORE: Yes.
BEHAR: He did.
SIZEMORE: Yes.
BEHAR: What did he say?
SIZEMORE: What`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wrong with you?
BEHAR: Don`t worry about it. We`ll bleep it. It`s ok.
SIZEMORE: What`s wrong with you? Why would you -- why would you do this?
BEHAR: What`s wrong with you? Yes.
SIZEMORE: Especially with three other cast members.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: And making you know, and I stopped doing it. I wasn`t -- I wasn`t nearly as in deep with the addiction as I later became.
BEHAR: I see. Well, we`re watching the Michael Jackson trial right now and his excesses with drugs and using all sorts of different things apparently. And then, you once said, I`m quoting you here, "Temptation is impossible for me to resist. Come on, this is Hollywood, it`s in the job description." Does anyone in that town ever say no to people?
SIZEMORE: Oh I wish -- I wish I hadn`t said that. I said that in jest. And I was saying it in regards -- I did say it, though. And I didn`t know though, a lot of people have a hard time resisting tempted, not resisting temptation -- I mean, that`s everything.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: But resisting things that other people say will make you feel better.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: Or make you better in general terms. Does anybody say no in Hollywood to --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: -- to narcotics? I`m sure there are people that do. My wife who I`m divorced from, never did drugs, and she was offered them plenty of times not by me.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: I -- I said I didn`t do them.
BEHAR: I see but -- yes.
SIZEMORE: So when you`re someone like Michael Jackson, who despite all of his problems --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
SIZEMORE: -- sold out -- sold out all of those tickets out in the afternoon --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: -- for those 15 shows.
BEHAR: Nobody is going to stop him.
SIZEMORE: Nobody is going to tell him to do anything.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: They`re going to give him in the point of the fact, what they`re going to do is because if he doesn`t take the drugs, he can`t operate. I mean, for me, the drugs didn`t do anything for me at the end but get me out of bed. They didn`t even work.
But Mr. Jackson seems to be really deeply addicted to drugs. And if he didn`t have them, he wasn`t able to perform properly.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: So if he has to perform --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: -- to do those shows. So they`re going to give him --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right. There`s a long line of doctors though, in his past that have -- who gave him all these drugs.
SIZEMORE: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean how long did it take you to find a doctor like that?
SIZEMORE: I was never really a pill --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You were not a prescription drugs.
SIZEMORE: -- a pill person. No I was briefly but I wasn`t -- it wasn`t my thing. I liked like the hard core street narcotics, like heroin and cocaine.
BEHAR: Where did you -- how did you get them?
SIZEMORE: From a drug dealer. Who do you think?
BEHAR: I mean, but you know, I mean, if I want to get some heroin, I don`t know who to call.
SIZEMORE: I don`t either anymore thank God.
BEHAR: But you knew then, I mean.
(CROSSTALK)
SIZEMORE: Well, you don`t know initially. You know, you move in New York from Detroit you don`t go, you know, in the Yellow Pages heroin dealers, they`re not listed.
BEHAR: Did anybody help you score the drugs?
SIZEMORE: Well, listen, I -- here`s how you do it, for all your fledgling young drug dealers and drug addicts out there, get in a cab and say you`re doing a documentary on drug addiction and the Western Hemisphere or New York City, I`ve been in Luxembourg, I`ve been all over the world.
I get in a cab and I go on a documentary filmmaker, I do a little bit of disguise. I go on doing on the drug street trade.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: Can you take me where the heroin is? And by the third cab driver if the first one doesn`t do it, they`re going to drive you right there, and he point them out there. He sells it at corner right here. That`s not how I did it here in New York -- how I did it here in New York was -- you know, you know all of this.
Come on it`s all over, it`s just ages ago. I don`t -- but how you find doctors.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, how do you doctors?
SIZEMORE: I know guys that have done this.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: It`s because you`re famous and these doctors, well, Conrad Murray, from what I`ve been -- the reports are, was being paid $200,000 a month. He wasn`t being paid $200,000 a month for any other reason than this, he was breaking the law.
BEHAR: Who are you`re referring to?
SIZEMORE: And he was -- he was -- Dr. Conrad Murray.
BEHAR: Oh yes, he was getting $150,000 a month.
SIZEMORE: He`s being -- whatever he was getting -- that`s a lot of money --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: -- to pay a doctor when you`re not really sick. And he was sick with addiction but he didn`t have cancer.
BEHAR: Right. That`s true.
SIZEMORE: Ok, so he was paying the man an enormous amount of money to break the law is what I think is. That`s how I look at it. He is doing -- he`s using a drug called -- he`s using a drug called Propofol.
BEHAR: Right.
SIZEMORE: Or whatever it`s called. It`s never supposed to leave the hospital. It`s used as an anesthetic for surgeries.
BEHAR: Right.
SIZEMORE: And he`s smuggling it from -- from Las Vegas to Los Angeles and administering it to Mr. Jackson.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: Now, regardless of Mr. Jackson`s desire for it. Conrad Murray`s Hippocratic Oath clearly states --
BEHAR: Do no harm.
SIZEMORE: Exactly.
BEHAR: Do no harm.
SIZEMORE: Do no harm.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: Now, there is no way that this man could have thought that giving this man Propofol on top of the thousands of Oxycontins and Xanax and all of those stuff that the poor was taking --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Demerol --
SIZEMORE: Every -- well the Demerol addiction was -- no, I know that doctor.
BEHAR: Dr. Arnie Klein.
SIZEMORE: Yes, he was my doctor.
BEHAR: Oh.
SIZEMORE: I had this shot of this mark on my face and I ended up not using Dr. Klein and using an associate of his.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: Dr. Charles Rich and I never got a prescription out of their office ever. I didn`t even know they were open. But Dr. Klein and doctor -- and Mr. Jackson were very good friends. Debbie Rowe was Dr. Klein`s nurse who became Michael`s wife. The mother of his kids --
BEHAR: Right. Right. Right.
SIZEMORE: I did not know that Dr. Klein did that. And I`m surprised that he did that.
BEHAR: Are you having trouble staying off the drugs?
SIZEMORE: No.
BEHAR: You`re not?
SIZEMORE: No, I mean, I have to daily -- it`s a daily -- you know, it`s a daily thing I have to do, you know, but I -- I jumped in with both feet this time with Dr. Drew.
BEHAR: How do you see the next ten years ahead of you?
SIZEMORE: How -- how do I see them?
BEHAR: Yes, how do you see -- where do you see yourself?
SIZEMORE: I`m going to raise my kids. I`m going to --
BEHAR: How many kids you got?
SIZEMORE: Two -- two boys. They`re 6-year-old twins.
BEHAR: Are you married too or not?
SIZEMORE: No.
BEHAR: Divorced?
SIZEMORE: Divorced. I see myself making motion pictures and being a good dad and teaching my kids how to play football.
BEHAR: Are you -- are you typecast a lot as a cop or a criminal?
SIZEMORE: I don`t know why.
BEHAR: Is that what they always do --
SIZEMORE: I got to know cops really well, though.
BEHAR: Yes, I bet you did. You have life experience with cops you`d bring at the role.
SIZEMORE: But I was playing cops before that.
BEHAR: Yes.
SIZEMORE: I`ll probably play them now, as well, though.
BEHAR: But you played a soldier in the "Private Ryan" --
(CROSSTALK)
SIZEMORE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- what is it, "Saving Private Ryan", right?
SIZEMORE: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: That was what you were on "The View" for at that time.
SIZEMORE: And I made a fool -- I made fool of myself when nobody asked me any questions.
BEHAR: You didn`t make a fool of yourself. We just knew you were a drug addict.
SIZEMORE: You`re ruthless. Thank God I`m clean.
BEHAR: You are clean. And I --
SIZEMORE: You can tell. You can tell.
BEHAR: I can -- yes, you`re much better. I congratulate you for the journey that you`ve come on.
SIZEMORE: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
BEHAR: You know, because I know it`s not -- I`ve never done drugs. I hate drugs. I hate marijuana --
SIZEMORE: How do you hate them if you`ve never done them?
BEHAR: I don`t like drugs that make you eat more which is what marijuana does. And the rest of the drugs; they`re just like --
(CROSSTALK)
SIZEMORE: You`re lucky.
BEHAR: Like who needs it? You know.
Anyway, thanks for stopping by.
SIZEMORE: Anyway -- yes, thank you.
BEHAR: And sharing your thoughts.
SIZEMORE: You`re very funny. Thank you.
BEHAR: You can see Tom Sizemore in "Hawaii Five-O" which airs Monday nights on CBS and his movie "Slumber Party Slaughter". It just wrapped and it`s coming to theaters near you very soon.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: CNN anchor, Don Lemon has been in the gallery of the Conrad Murray trial the past two days. Here to give us his up close observations on the trial and reactions from the Jackson family, is Don Lemon. Hey Don.
Don, what is the mood like in the courtroom?
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes. Hi.
LEMON: Hey. Well, the mood is a little bit different especially with the family members. The family members seem a bit more relaxed today. They`re smiling. They`re more friendly. They`re kind of touching each other.
I think the family and speaking to sources who are close to the family, they realize that a house divided, Joy, does not stand. So they`re sticking together and they`re watching and surrounding Katherine Jackson like a hawk and protecting her from people who are in the courtroom, from the media and they`re just really supporting her.
So the mood in the courtroom today, more contentious, I think, when it comes to testimony but it`s wider when it comes to the family.
BEHAR: Well, that`s understandable that they would circle the wagons for their family. Very good.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: There were eight Jackson family there yesterday, were they all -- all of them were back today?
LEMON: It was all the same members. There was one of the non-famous Jacksons was there -- I can`t recall her name. Then there was Jermaine Jackson was there, Rebbie Jackson is there, Latoya Jackson is there, of course, Katherine is there, Tito, Janet as well. And usually sitting next to her is one of the daughters who will put their arms around their mother on occasion, rub her shoulder. She was complaining about her shoulder. Latoya sort of mouthed to her, is your shoulder hurting and started to rub it.
And there was an interesting exchange after the break this morning between Janet and her mom and her dad. Janet wanted her mom to sit next to her, and she said come on, mom, come sit over here. They all stood up and mom says, I`m ok, I`m ok.
Joe looked at me, and he goes Don, see what they`re trying to do to me. They don`t want me sitting next to them.
And I said, well, they`re supporting their mom. So it`s all good.
BEHAR: Well, you know, I was wondering, the prosecution showed this sort of ghoulish picture of the lifeless body of Michael Jackson. I mean how did the family react to that?
LEMON: You know, everyone in the court was just stunned by that. And you could hear gasps, people in the courtroom, the observers, jury, not supposed to react. But there were audible gasps.
The family just sort of started looking around at each other like this and searching for tissues to pass it down the row to their mom. And you could see the mom crying and then wiping her tears away and the rest of the family members as well.
And when that audio came up, you know, that recording of his voice, Joy, I mean -- you know, we all have mothers, we all have families. And sitting there being so close to the families -- it`s like church pews, right.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEMON: So I`m sitting right behind Katherine Jackson and Joe Jackson and Janet. And it`s just odd to be there and not want to put your hand on someone`s shoulder because they`re reliving this nightmare all over again. No one wishes that on any family. And that says nothing about the guilt or innocence of Conrad Murray. We`re all human and it`s sad to see that.
BEHAR: Yes. I know and it`s such a hard profile case and people have to be subjected to this type of, you know, exposure. It`s kind of -- it`s very, very sad.
But anyway, thank you, Don, very much.
LEMON: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok.
LEMON: All righty.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next, some voters are saying New Jersey Governor Chris Christie is too fat to be elected president. But should his weight really be an issue?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Amid speculation that New Jersey Governor Chris Christie will run for president in 2012, some comedians, like me and David Letterman, are taking the opportunity to make some fat jokes. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It might be fun to have a fat president, you know. I mean, no more vetoes, only Cheetos, yay!
DAVID LETTERMAN: But they`re having trouble luring Governor Christie into the presidential race. They`ve tried everything. They have had phone calls. People have called, Republicans tried to get him, please, and I thought, have you tried pie?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now, we`re comedians. Now, let`s watch MSNBC host Martin Bashir.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIN BASHIR, MSNBC: The real, will he or won`t he fervor is around the massively popular New Jersey governor, Chris Christie. While Christie has said he won`t run, he hasn`t exactly pushed away from the table and left the room. But if it`s such a piece of cake to walk into the White House next to you, why doesn`t he do it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: The guy is a journalist. I pray I never see Wolf Blitzer doing a set at the Ha-Ha House. With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news, are Judy Gold, comedian and star of "The Judy Show: My Life Is a Sitcom." Jeremy Kyle, host of the nationally syndicated "Jeremy Kyle Show," and the lovely Sarah Bernard, host of The Thread on yahoo!
So, Judith, so let`s start with you or Jeremy. The guy is a journalist. Let`s start with the man. The guy is a journalist. Don`t you think it`s a little sneaky to put those little fat jokes in there? At least the comedians come right out and say it?
JEREMY KYLE, HOST, JEREMY KYLE SHOW: Absolutely. I don`t know, maybe I`m saying the wrong thing here, but I would hope that people would vote for him because he`s good enough to run rather than the size of his gut.
(CROSSTALK)
JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: Did you know that? He had like an asthma attack.
KYLE: He was hospitalized twice, wasn`t he?
GOLD: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s not being fat, that`s asthma. That`s different.
KYLE: No, but it`s not being helped by the fact that he eats a lot.
GOLD: The Republicans, their view has always been let them eat cake and you know, here we go.
SARAH BERNARD, HOST OF THE THREAD ON YAHOO!: I think actually -- when I first heard Martin`s delivery, I thought that he didn`t get the joke himself. But then I watched it again, and I thought actually he`s brilliant. Right? Because it fooled everybody. It just kind of slipped by. You guys are more obvious. But you know what, it is probably inappropriate for him to take such a stance on it.
But I agree. I don`t think that you can seriously be a public figure, talk about the obesity epidemic we have in the country. You know, maybe you want to do some legislation about school lunches or something, you can`t do that and look so unhealthy.
GOLD: Why? Bush talked about education and he looked like the biggest idiot in the world.
KYLE: But hold on a second, where do you draw the line there? If you get to run for president, you have got to be skinny, you`ve got to be fit? You`ve got to be what?
BEHAR: You have to be smart.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: Well, we had a really dumb president. We had a promiscuous president, we have a black president. Now we`ll maybe have an obese president. Maybe the next president will have a vagina. That would be good. Don`t you think?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know, the question really, serious question is, could we have made those jokes about a female?
GOLD: Oh, that would have been, I think, off-limits, don`t you think?
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: But Palin, when she was on that cover of you know, the magazine, they said, oh, she looks like a witch or you know, she`s crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: It wouldn`t have worked on a woman, but a woman`s appearance is picked apart completely, their hair, their clothes, everything.
GOLD: I don`t think men are picked apart as much as women.
KYLE: As the only man here, hold on a second, is that absolutely altogether fair? You are saying it`s OK to call a bloke fat, and you`re not good enough to be president, but if you said that about a woman, that would be unfair.
GOLD: No, we didn`t say -- he needed to be smart.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: No, men`s bodies are not as criticized as female bodies.
(CROSSTALK)
KYLE: So you wouldn`t mind a female president that was fat, but a male fat president, that wouldn`t work?
BEHAR: It`s up for grabs is the point.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: A lesbian actress, watch this carefully and listen carefully, Judy. A lesbian actress -- because it wasn`t you -- Alicia Haley (ph) claims she was kicked off a Southwest Airlines flight for sharing, quote/unquote, "one modest kiss" with her female partner. Who fools around in front of other people on a plane? Do it under a blanket like the rest of us.
(CROSSTALK)
KYLE: What do you think of the name there? Lezzie -- you said that--
GOLD: Lezzie faire. That is the most hilarious thing, I love that.
BEHAR: She`s a very attractive girl.
GOLD: But I thought all gays actually make out in first class. That is what was so odd about it.
BEHAR: But I mean, the airline is saying they were making out, they got complaints. And when they went to the two women who were kissing or whatever they were doing, they got ticked off at them and that`s why they kicked them off the plane.
BERNARD: They were saying it wasn`t the fact that they were kissing, it was their response to it, that they were vulgar and they were just obviously extremely angry. But this cracks me up, because Southwest Airlines, this is like the third incident in the last couple of months, right? There was--
BEHAR: Kevin Smith.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: So Chris Christie is not going to fly.
BERNARD: No, Chris Christie can`t fly--
BEHAR: Billy Joe Armstrong.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: -- had low riding pants and the stewardess tried to tell him to pull it up, and he said, don`t you have anything better to worry about? And then they kicked him off.
KYLE: If you`re fat, your trousers are low, your pants as you call them out here, or you`re gay, you can`t travel on Southwest Airlines?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The airline -- listen to this. Southwest says it`s the official airline of GLAAD, which is the gay organization. Doesn`t that sort of forgive them for everything?
KYLE: Not Really.
BERNARD: I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: Now, all these people are taking to Twitter, Kelly Osbourne, Sandra Bernhardt, are going on and saying I am never going to fly this airline again.
BEHAR: But do you think they wouldn`t have interfered with the kissing if it was a man and a woman?
GOLD: I have seen men and women practically doing it on a plane and no one says anything to them.
BEHAR: Really?
GOLD: Yes.
KYLE: In England, (inaudible), if they were on (ph) a bus (ph)? Nobody would say a word. And then when they have a cigarette when they`re finished, somebody would say, this is a non-smoking compartment. That`s what they do in England.
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: Doesn`t it seem like the stewardesses and the whole flight crew are -- they are like wannabe boarding school headmistresses, or something -- like pull up your pants, you can`t do this, you can`t do that.
BEHAR: They`re strict.
BERNARD: They are very strict.
BEHAR: OK. Moving on. Nancy Grace is now saying her wardrobe malfunction on "Dancing with the Stars" the other night wasn`t a nip slip at all. It was just her pasty that was exposed. To me, it looked like a Frisbee. Did you see that?
GOLD: I would believe that if one of her twins wasn`t attached to it. She`s denying it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Put the camera on me for a second. I want to show you something. This is called a sassy nip. Look at that.
You put this in there to like cover the nip. And so it might have been something like that that you saw rather than the areola.
BERNARD: That was the real thing. If you slow it down, you can really see, it was real.
GOLD: I think it was the real thing too. I know a lot about nipples.
BERNARD: Are you going to show it? You can`t show it.
BEHAR: What?
KYLE: Can we show it?
BERNARD: Are you showing it? We did already. OK.
GOLD: Why? Do you want to see it again?
BERNARD: No, no, I`m fine. I`m fine.
GOLD: Do you want to talk (ph) after the show?
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: I don`t understand why she doesn`t just admit it? I mean, didn`t we learn from the whole Janet Jackson thing that it`s better to just say, I`m so sorry, I`m so embarrassed, and move on.
BEHAR: I agree with that.
BERNARD: It`s like Khloe Kardashian, it happened to her a couple of weeks ago on Fox, and they tried to make a big deal of it. And she said, you know what, that`s what happened, I`m really embarrassed, sorry. And it ended.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Are you saying she should milk it?
(LAUGHTER)
KYLE: She should have been thrown off an airline for getting her nipple out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But I mean, a nip-slip is the reason people watch that show, either that or someone faints. Something--
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: And then with Chaz Bono, you never know what`s going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, now finally, remember this guy who harassed Bristol Palin after she rode the mechanical bull at an L.A. bar last week? Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ride Levi like that? Your mother`s a whore. Your mother is a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) devil, dude. Yes, she`s the devil. She lives, she breathes.
BRISTOL PALIN: You want her dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, but you know what? If there was a hell, which I don`t believe there is one, she will be there.
PALIN: OK, why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s evil. She`s evil. She--
PALIN: All right. Is it because you`re a homosexual?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretty much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Now the guy is apologizing, saying quote, "I allowed my emotions to get the better of me." Still, if I were him on Halloween, I wouldn`t dress up like a moose. OK. It could be very dangerous.
Now, why do you think he`s changing his tune, Jeremy?
KYLE: Probably because he made a mistake. I said earlier when we were talking outside, I think there are -- if your parents are in the public eye and you keep your head down, then you have every reason to be upset if somebody attacks you. I`m not condoning in any way what was said to her, but if she wants to be out of the public eye, why would she sign up for "Dancing With the Stars" then?
BEHAR: She doesn`t want to be out of the public eye.
(CROSSTALK)
KYLE: Then is she fair game? Not the actual stuff that was said, but is she -- I don`t know.
GOLD: She is -- this is a reality show. She wants this kind of thing. Her mother made her who she is.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: But also, what kind of comeback line is, is this because you`re a homosexual?
BEHAR: It was a bar in West Hollywood, so, duh.
GOLD: Who else is going to (inaudible) riding a mechanical bull.
BEHAR: It`s not in Branson.
BERNARD: I think it`s kind of unbelievable, though, because this whole scenario, if you watch it again, she looks like calm and collected, and he looks crazy. So the whole thing just makes her look like she`s actually kind of sensible. She`s not screaming.
BEHAR: But don`t you think that`s a setup?
BERNARD: That`s exactly what I mean. Obviously, it has got to be a setup. Because if that happened really, she would be furious, don`t you think? Plus I can`t even look at her. She doesn`t even look like Bristol anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who, Bristol doesn`t look like herself.
BERNARD: She has a completely new face.
BEHAR: Yeah, what happened to her.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: This is the kind of behavior you want in a first family, you really do.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thank you guys very much. Check your local listings to see "The Jeremy Kyle Show" on weekdays. And you can catch Judy in "The Judy Show" in New York. It was just extended through November 22nd.
GOLD: That`s my girl.
(CROSSTALK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Over the last three decades, Gloria Estefan has been giving us some of the hottest dance songs of all time. And with the release of her new album, "Miss Little Havana," it looks like she`s at it again. Watch.
(MUSIC
BEHAR: It`s not going to be easy. This might not be pretty. So here with me now is the one and only Gloria Maria Milagrosa Fajardo Garcia de Estefan.
GLORIA ESTEFAN, MUSICIAN: Yes. All right.
BEHAR: From Miami, Gloria Estefan. Pretty good, right? Seven years of Spanish, thank you very much.
ESTEFAN: Yeah, baby. Although I lost the Milagrosa, because that means the miraculous one, because it was the day the virgin that -- the day I was born. And I told my mother, that`s too much pressure.
BEHAR: Right. The virgin birth.
ESTEFAN: It was like the miracle worker or something, Milagrosa.
BEHAR: I see, Milagrosa.
ESTEFAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: I like Spanish, it`s a beautiful language.
ESTEFAN: I love it too.
BEHAR: It`s bouncy and yet it has guts.
ESTEFAN: You can`t be too sweet in Spanish. Like they say -- you sing a love song in English, they go, no, that`s too sweet. It`s impossible in Spanish, you can never be passionate enough or sweet enough.
BEHAR: Yeah. So does the stereotype really hold about Latins, that they`re just fiery, is it true?
ESTEFAN: Well, if you count my family, I`d say definitely. Yeah. My mom especially, who -- she`s the diva in the family. Yes. She had won a contest to be Shirley Temple`s double back in this day. She was going to do her songs in Spanish. She had the curls, she sang, she danced. I was shy. I was like, don`t want to be the center of attention. I was like my dad, but I sang since I talked. So music was my escape.
BEHAR: But you`re not shy anymore.
ESTEFAN: No, no, no. And I was very shy and I wondered why I just don`t like being the center of attention. I had to get used to that. It wasn`t easy.
BEHAR: Right.
ESTEFAN: Wrong career to pick.
BEHAR: Yeah, in showbiz, you become the center of attention whether you like it or not. And some people, they would like to be, but they don`t know how to get it.
ESTEFAN: And comedians, I heard also, a lot of shy people there in comedy.
BEHAR: We`re scared a little bit underneath. That`s why we`re funny. It`s a defense, you know.
ESTEFAN: I love that, though. You got to be funny.
BEHAR: You got to be funny. It`s the only thing to be.
ESTEFAN: You got to laugh at everything.
BEHAR: Everything is so tragic and weird.
ESTEFAN: Exactly.
BEHAR: Just the fact that we`re going to die makes me laugh.
ESTEFAN: Yeah, doesn`t it? Well, I thought about that. Doesn`t make me laugh, but you know, no matter how long we live, we will be dead soon. So we better enjoy it.
BEHAR: That`s true. Now, you know, we`re covering this Conrad Murray trial, and I found a picture of you with Michael Jackson. So let`s show that. I want to show that picture. Look at the three of you. Michael looks so handsome there.
ESTEFAN: The `80s.
BEHAR: There`s Emilio with you looking very gorgeous.
ESTEFAN: Lots of hair, no gray hair.
BEHAR: No, not yet. So tell me about your relationship with him. I didn`t really know that you were that friendly.
ESTEFAN: Well, I mean, we weren`t close friends by any means, but we had many times through the years that we were together. We were label mates. First of all, he was a huge influence growing up musically to me. I used to sing "Ben" on my guitar and "One Day in Your Life," which is one of my favorite tunes of all time that he put out. And I was just always listening to when is the next Michael Jackson record going to come out. I was listening for how amazingly -- you know, not just the artistry, but the technical side of it. He was always on the cutting edge. And when Quincy Jones did his record -- well, his records that blew up. No one will ever do that again.
He was a very sweet guy, but when I looked at Michael, I always see a little boy. I didn`t see a 50-year-old man. Even one to one, when we were together, he was just fascinated by everything. He never had a childhood, and that really hurt him a lot.
BEHAR: I think so, too. That`s why Neverland was really trying to recreate that, I think. But you know, there`s a lot of pressure on him. As you`re watching this trial unfold, you see, he says things, like I have to please my fans, I want them to be -- I want them to love this show more than any show. Do you feel that kind of pressure, too?
ESTEFAN: Of course you do.
BEHAR: You do?
ESTEFAN: Any time you put anything out, you have got your hard-core following. And Michael, I mean, imagine, there is nobody that will ever be as huge as Michael Jackson was. So his pressure is multiplied by anything we can feel.
But you want your fans to like what you do, because it`s coming from your heart and soul. You write it, you produce this thing. It`s like your baby. And you want people to love your baby, to think it`s pretty, to think it`s cute, especially for him, who he kept raising the bar and raising the bar. And he, you know, as a spectacle, his shows were phenomenal. So there was a lot of pressure on him for these shows. And I hate to say it, but I told my kids, I had the feeling he wasn`t going to make it to 50.
BEHAR: Really?
ESTEFAN: Yes. Always, because I just thought that all that pressure was going to cave in on him, and ultimately, that`s what happened, I think.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about politics a minute. I know you`re a very political girl.
ESTEFAN: Life is politics, Joy.
BEHAR: That`s right. It`s personal.
ESTEFAN: You know, I don`t enjoy the machine of politics. But I`ve lived a very political life because of what we lived through in Cuba. And you know, it`s always tough.
BEHAR: So you had Obama at your house, President Obama at your house?
ESTEFAN: I did.
BEHAR: What did you talk about?
ESTEFAN: I wanted President Obama at my house because right at that moment there was something going on in Cuba, and now it`s even getting worse. Les damas e blanco (ph), these ladies in white that were marching every Sunday to try to counteract these 75 people that were put in jail for no reason, journalists, psychologists, and what not, and get them out. They walked silently or whatever, and they were getting beat up. And as a matter of fact, this last week, they didn`t even let them leave the house. So I wanted to show him pictures.
BEHAR: Where was that happening?
ESTEFAN: In Cuba.
BEHAR: In Havana.
ESTEFAN: Yes, in Havana, and these ladies are really brave. You know, the women are getting out there, they are really pushing the envelope down there. And I wanted to hand him the letters, read him the letter from the dissident`s mother. One of them died, Orlando Zapata de Mario (ph), had already died, he was a martyr, and Guillermo Farinas (ph) was on a hunger strike. So I wanted to make sure it got into his hands and he saw these pictures. And ultimately he made some very strong pronouncements against what was going on.
BEHAR: Did he do something?
ESTEFAN: He did, he came out and he spoke against what was going on there, and ultimately they released a lot of those -- they sent them out to Spain and made them leave the country.
BEHAR: Isn`t that something.
ESTEFAN: But they released them, because too much world attention.
BEHAR: Look at what you did there.
ESTEFAN: Listen--
BEHAR: It`s phenomenal.
ESTEFAN: We did a march for them in Florida, in Miami, in Gayocho (ph). And there were between 100 and 200,000 people at that march, to show solidarity.
BEHAR: Great. It`s nice that you have influence, isn`t it?
ESTEFAN: That`s the only way to use it, as far as I`m concerned.
BEHAR: That`s great.
OK, we`re going to take a break. We`ll have more with Gloria Estefan after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, look, look, look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Eat your heart out, Nancy Grace. (laughter).
That was hot. But that was the other day on "The View" with all of us, including myself.
ESTEFAN: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: We`re dancing to Gloria`s new single. "Wepa."
ESTEFAN: Wow!
BEHAR: I love that. That is a catchy little -- all your music makes everybody want to get up. I mean that`s the idea. I was dancing, I felt it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
ESTEFAN: To entertain you, make you forget about all the craziness happening in the world for a little bit at least, you know. Have a great time.
BEHAR: Now, this new CD ...
ESTEFAN: Yes. It`s the one that we`re doing here. Mr. Havana," which everyone calls little Miss Havana ...
BEHAR: Miss Havana ...
ESTEFAN: ... because apparently I`m quite small and that`s the first thing that comes into their mind. Either way it`s like a Estefan -- Estefan.
BEHAR: How tall are you actually?
ESTEFAN: I was 5`2" before my accident.
BEHAR: Oh.
ESTEFAN: And then I lost two and some inches from the fusion.
BEHAR: Yeah. Well.
ESTEFAN: I could have used those two inches.
BEHAR: And we know, as you get older, you shrink a little even more.
ESTEFAN: Put them in my shoes. I don`t shrink anymore.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- like three feet tall.
ESTEFAN: No. Because I know. I will not be shrinking anymore because there`s rods. They don`t let me shrink anymore.
BEHAR: Ah.
ESTEFAN: I just went in one -- one quick moment there.
BEHAR: Oh, maybe all of us should just get rods.
ESTEFAN: I wouldn`t recommend it just for that. You know what, buy some heels. That`s what you got to do.
BEHAR: OK. So, anyway, it`s available at Target. Target, I like to call it "Target."
ESTEFAN: Target--
BEHAR: And you have some kind of controversy with Target. What was that about?
ESTEFAN: I didn`t have the controversy. They apparently had the controversy about a year ago, because they gave money to a political organization that then in turn gave money to a bunch of candidates and one of them have a strong anti-gay marriage stance--
BEHAR: Oh.
ESTEFAN: So, they were boycotted and what not. But you know what -- I really think that the LGBT community had an amazing win here because not only did they get half a million bucks that they wouldn`t have gotten when they gave the other guy 150,000, but they established a political committee to watch every donation they make to make sure that it doesn`t happen again. They give a lot of benefits to gay partners of people that work at Target, they`re very diversified. And I think that they showed all the other corporations their clout. And that`s what lobbying is for. I think it worked. And it was great.
BEHAR: That`s great. Yes. It was so good, very good.
ESTEFAN: It was good.
BEHAR: And Emilio is here with you.
ESTEFAN: He is my baby.
BEHAR: And you`ve been together 31 -- he`s your only ...
ESTEFAN: No, 33 married, 35 together, baby. That`s a long time.
BEHAR: Oh, you were living in sin for a while?
ESTEFAN: No, I mean together like boyfriend and girlfriend. We didn`t live together. I`m a Cuban girl. My mom would have killed me. Yes.
BEHAR: I would have a delay (ph) in those days --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Now, I`m a slut, but in those days -- well, I want to thank you for coming by. I`m a big, huge fan of your--
ESTEFAN: Me, too. I`m a big fan of yours. I watch you all the time.
BEHAR: That`s so nice. Thank you. And her new album "Miss Little Havana" is out now exclusively at Target and on iTunes. Be sure to watch "Showbiz Tonight." Next they`ll have the latest on the Conrad Murray trial of course. Good night, everybody.
END
