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Joy Behar Page
Michael Jackson Death Trial; Interview with Jermaine Jackson
Aired September 30, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, did Michael Jackson`s damaged psyche lead to his demise? Joy wants to know what sort of psychological trauma led Jackson to become dependent on powerful sedatives just to fall asleep.
And Michael Jackson`s brother, Jermaine, is here to talk about Michael`s death and tells Joy whether he thinks Conrad Murray is to blame.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: The Conrad Murray trial is continuing in Los Angeles and once again, Michael Jackson`s complicated life is under the microscope.
Here to discuss this are Stacy Brown, author of "Michael Jackson, the Man behind the Mask"; psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall; and Brian Oxman, attorney for the father, Joe Jackson. Welcome to the show everybody.
Bethany, Michael had some strange behavior in his adult life. Do you think that his -- tell me how this childhood determined the behavior of the man?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Look, I do know that Michael was severely and traumatically abused by his father. And often, abuse victims regress in fantasy to being the child they were before the abuse began. So if the abuse began before he was 6 years old, maybe he wanted to be like a beloved 5-year-old.
Michael Jackson organized his whole life around being a little kid, a beloved child to very disastrous results. For instance Propofol and Lorazepam -- those are medications that put you in a sleepy, sleepy state like a little kid at bedtime. He never chose an age mate or sexual partner his own age, who could have built a relationship of trust with him and helped him in his life.
He was selfish. He only wanted what he wanted. He didn`t control himself. If anyone tried to tell him otherwise in terms of what he wanted, it was like off with their heads.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Almost like a child having a tantrum, you mean?
MARSHALL: He was the king of pop, so he was the king. He set up his household like a palace. He was the child king. He had all the power but pathological immaturity. So he just banished people from the kingdom who disagreed with him and that`s why he didn`t get treatment.
BEHAR: Brian, why are you laughing?
BRIAN OXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOE JACKSON: It`s a little over the top Joy. I mean this man was an extraordinary performer. And he`s not some child king. He is probably the most preeminent performer of our times. A smart man who gathered an estate, now that we see is close to worth $3 billion. You can`t characterize this man as that.
Now, yes, in his childhood his father was a severe disciplinarian. But let me tell you something, it was with all the children, not just with Michael. And this trauma, no, no, no, no, no; they put this all behind them a long time ago. They were very, very close-knit.
And if you remember that picture of Michael coming to court in his pajamas, who is standing next to him bike the Rock of Gibraltar, his father, Joe Jackson who got him to court.
BEHAR: Brian, have you ever heard of Sigmund Freud. I mean there are people who say their childhood determines your behavior when you`re older and you`re saying they put this behind them. You can`t put that stuff behind you.
OXMAN: They put this behind them Joy.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: No, you know what --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
MARSHALL: Brian, I`m really glad you brought up the incident when he went to court, the judge ordered him to court. He showed up disheveled in his pajamas claiming he had had a spider bite and what that tells me is that one of the after effects of the abuse, is that whenever Michael Jackson had to step up to the plate, take responsibility for his bad acts, get sober, anything like that, he fell apart or decompensated this is clinical term.
And it could be just before he was about to go out on the road, he fell apart because he couldn`t handle it.
OXMAN: I have to agree with that part. I agree with that part.
BEHAR: Ok, good. Stacy, you`re the biographer. So tell us what you -- respond to that.
STACY BROWN, AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON, THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK": You can`t have it both ways. Michael himself said he was reliving his childhood. And everyone, the family says he`s child-like and the fans says he`s child-like. You can`t have it both ways. You can`t have Brian Oxman saying, well, no he had a billion dollar enterprise and he wasn`t child like. That flies in the face of everything Michael Jackson said.
And you know what, listening to the psychoanalyst, I`m the one who never really believed in so-called shrinks but she`s just convinced me I should believe in them. She makes sense.
BEHAR: That means she`s making sense to you.
BROWN: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Bethany, you scored a point there.
MARSHALL: I`m glad I made a believer out of you.
BEHAR: Ok. Brian, Joe Jackson, he did keep them working constantly. I mean what has he told you about rearing his children, Joe? You`re his lawyer. What has he told you?
OXMAN: It`s so strange, Joy. He has become the rock of this family, in the midst of all this emotion and death of Michael Jackson, how he has really held this family together. And throughout all the childhood he was the man that brought them into the pre-eminence. He made the Jackson family. You have to give this man some credit. He did it.
BEHAR: Right. We give him that.
OXMAN: And every one of these children -- these children give him that credit. They say, yes, he was a disciplinarian. He didn`t want them to die on the streets of Gary, Indiana, being shot. It was the murder capital of the world.
And you know something? He succeeded. As a father, he has to be proud of that.
BEHAR: Bethany, can you respond to that? In other words, the guy is a strict disciplinarian and that kept them safe at home. It`s kind of ironic and an oxy -- sort of moronic statement, isn`t it?
MARSHALL: Well, obviously, he gave them a better life --
OXMAN: I resemble that remark.
MARSHALL: Oh, Brian. He gave them a better life materially but psychically, it was a really tragic situation for Michael. For instance, he fused the idea of being a great performer with the idea of being loved; like the two were one and the same. That`s what we often see with child actors.
So what did he do when he was drugged up and high, we heard the recordings played in court, he said I`m going to be the greatest entertainer of all time. But at the same time he was drugged up and he couldn`t manage his feelings.
BEHAR: Yes. I mean what about, Bethany or anybody really can answer this -- what about the child-like way he spoke. If you listen to the audiotape of him slurring, he has a very deep voice. Which is real voice of Michael Jackson?
BROWN: When I heard that audiotape, immediately for me, I said, that`s Joseph Jackson. He sounds just like -- that`s the real Michael Jackson`s voice. That`s the real Jackson voice.
BEHAR: Oh.
BROWN: This whole idea, you know, we talk about Joe -- I`m not here to vilify Joe -- Brian says district disciplinarian, however, Latoya Jackson wrote a book 15 years ago and said that discipline went beyond that. She claimed molestation from Joe.
BEHAR: She did.
MARSHALL: If I can say something else about the strict discipline, I don`t think Michael Jackson wanted to die but certainly the severe traumatic abuse in combination with the child molestation trial, he certainly wanted to put himself in a coma. By that I mean he wanted to render himself into a state he could not feel anything.
BEHAR: Do you want to respond to what was just said about the molestation charges from Latoya?
OXMAN: I talked to Latoya about this so much. She said, look, you have to read the book. Joe Jackson hit the family members. She says that. She called it a molestation. It was not so much sexual. You have to read that book. And she was not excluded from any of that. She did not call it brutal. She did not call it vile.
She just said this was the discipline her father imposed upon the entire family. He never sent one of them to the hospital and he never scarred a single one of them. He didn`t want these kids dying on the streets of Gary, Indiana.
And you know something; I talked to Michael about it, too. I said, Michael, you wouldn`t rehearse, your father got angry at you. I would have gotten upset at you, too. He said, yes, Brian, I know what you`re talking about. So I find this --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Bethany -- respond, Bethany, yes.
MARSHALL: You know what; one of the definitions of sexual abuse is when you prematurely expose a child to sexuality before they can handle it. And according to some reports, Michael Jackson saw a lot of sexual activity when he was 6 years old and he was on the road, so that constitutes sexual abuse.
And drug addicts notoriously binge the night before they`re supposed to go in rehab or take up some big responsibility which will require sobriety. I think that`s what happened. He binged prior to taking up this tour.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be right back. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Ok, we`re back with the panel talking about Michael Jackson`s death and the Conrad Murray trial. Bethany in the other segment we were talking -- Stacy and I we`re saying, or he said that when Michael was under the sedation of some sort he slurred but he sounded -- the voice was sounding like Joe Jackson.
And what do you make of that statement? Is there anything to that?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well I -- I think it`s really important what Stacy brought up. Because what I think is that for Michael Jackson, being a child, being loved and all of his erotic desires were all fused.
So when he went in front of the camera or he knew people were listening, he adopted the high voice. To him, that was his obsession, was being a little boy. When he was drugged, he dropped the high voice. When you`re in a -- in a high intoxicated state, you drop your persona, right? So his real voice came out.
BEHAR: That was kind of shocking.
BROWN: Well and the other thing about it, too, Joy --
BEHAR: Yes.
BROWN: -- is that people talk about his -- his plastic surgery and his wanting to look like Diana Ross or whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, what about plastic surgery. Right.
BROWN: Which is crazy but it was more -- from all accounts, there was so many account, it was more about not wanting to resemble Joe Jackson than anything else. He -- he had a disgust for his father.
BRIAN OXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR JOE JACKSON: Not exactly Stacy.
BEHAR: Brian, did he hate his father? Did he hate his father?
OXMAN: That`s -- that`s -- no.
BEHAR: No.
OXMAN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
BROWN: But he told Oprah Winfrey in a television you know, 50 million people watched as he sold Oprah Winfrey how he felt about his father. He never made that --
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: He was -- he was upset. Stacy there`s no question he was upset.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Look, if he was upset with his father, then, why was his father prohibited from being around his children? He did not want his father to have control.
OXMAN: Oh but that`s not true, that`s not either.
BEHAR: That`s not true, I believe --
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: He didn`t want anyone -- he didn`t want anyone to have control over his children, he was so protective of them.
You know, people say, how is it that these kids have turned out so good --
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: But you know Brian, you know that`s not what I`m talking about. You know that`s not what I`m talking about. What I`m talking about is Joe could have no parental rights over the children. And if grandma was going to raise the children, grandpa was not supposed to be around.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Bethany what do you --
MARSHALL: So that to me --
BEHAR: Ok.
OXMAN: There is nothing in that will which says any such thing. There is nothing in any of Michael`s writings everywhere, which says any such things.
He was really very close to his dad. He helped support his dad. He took care of him. And when Michael needed something, when Michael was in trouble, guess who he turned to, his dad.
BROWN: Well, he did turn to his dad toward the end of his life.
BEHAR: Why?
BROWN: Brian is absolutely right about that.
BROWN: But I don`t think he mentioned though that --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why did he turn to his dad?
BROWN: Well, a protector, Joe was the big bad man. He could protect them from anything. And remember, before Michael died, just before he died, he was very paranoid. He thought -- and -- and he -- whether or not it`s true or not, he thought someone was out to kill him. And he told his family that.
BEHAR: Who did he think was trying to kill him?
BROWN: That is a mystery to me. Maybe Brian knows.
OXMAN: Well, there`s a little bit, a little bit. Ever since he bought the Beatles catalogue, Joy, he thought that people were out to try and do him in. It`s kind of like it was this golden glow which everybody wanted and he was afraid that people wanted it and they try to get it from him. He felt that all the charges which were brought against him were efforts to try and get that Beatles catalogue. It was really something which preoccupied him.
MARSHALL: But you know Brian. You have to factor in the drug abuse. Because when people have opiate addiction, they become very paranoid and they become preoccupied with things, like maybe this was why he was preoccupied with being killed. Maybe this was why he was preoccupied with his nose.
I mean maybe he was trying to eradicate the image of his father. Maybe he -- maybe if his nose was all he could see and control so he became preoccupied with it. Maybe he had body dysmorphia but most certainly the paranoia that`s a part of drug abuse got incorporated into all of his decision making.
And also -- a sign of his weakening --
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: Bethany, you have -- you have a good point. But --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
OXMAN: You have a good point. But here is the thing. The bottom line of Michael Jackson`s life is that these drugs did him in. It`s the cause of his death.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Let me ask you something Brian.
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: And -- and -- it`s just -- it`s not something which anyone ever wanted here.
BEHAR: Yes. Of course. But you know, here, we have a guy who was on drugs, a guy who did chisel his nose down. A lot of other bizarre behavior -- hanging the kid over the balcony to name but one thing, the sleepovers with kids is not exactly kosher in a lot of circles.
Does Joe Jackson see any connection between Michael`s bizarre behavior and the way he was brought up or does he just deny any responsibility for the behavior?
OXMAN: Oh I think Joe wants to take the credit for Michael`s life and Michael`s success.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh, the credit?
OXMAN: And Michael`s behavior. You bet you. Because Joe is someone who said I`m going to help make this man who he is. And he worked his entire life to help his family. There is no family in America that can boast this kind of success. They are the first family of American music. Janet is -- is just about the greatest performer you ever want to see. Latoya is exquisite and Jermaine, gosh, I got to hand it to Jermaine, he is really, really good and all the kids are good.
BEHAR: Right.
OXMAN: And I give credit to Joe.
BEHAR: Ok, Stacy.
BROWN: Well, first of all, I disagree, I think Rebbie Jackson is the best performer outside of Michael and that family.
BEHAR: Ok.
BROWN: But anyway --
OXMAN: Good -- good point, Stacy. Good point, good point.
BROWN: But -- but you know, he mentioned Joe pushing them and Joe, he -- he beat Joe -- I mean, Joe beat Michael because he wanted Michael to work hard. Joe Jackson told me himself that the reason why Michael stopped performing with his brothers is because his brothers refused to work nearly as hard as Michael Jackson did. And that`s -- that`s what separated Michael Jackson.
Michael worked hard and he insulated himself because he wanted, again, like Bethany says, to get away from that Joe Jackson influence.
BEHAR: Well, there`s no denying that he was a huge talent, I mean, one of the biggest stars of the 20th century in pop music.
BROWN: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: I mean, you can`t deny that.
BROWN: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Whether Joe Jackson pushed him or not, I think he still would have been a huge star because he had the talent.
Bethany, what about these sleepovers that we hear about of all the time? I mean, he was absolved or you know there was no proof that anything went on in those cases.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: You know, I don`t --
BEHAR: But he did have these parties and Jermaine told me that that was part of his upbringing too, that they would always have sleepovers and a lot of kids over. What do you make of all that?
MARSHALL: I don`t think that`s because it was part of his upbringing. I think that that`s because where his interests lie. And one of the things that we know about adults, who are preoccupied with children, is that when they act inappropriately with the child, they see their own face in the face of the child and they give the child the love they imagine that they never had.
So in other words, it`s a disorder of identification, they see their own face in the face of the child. So -- so Michael Jackson`s feeling of himself being a child and then his preoccupation with children, it was like him falling in love with himself, going back to that earliest developmental stage.
(CROSSTALK)
OXMAN: Bethany, I -- I`ve got to disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: He glorifies a bit and making it more than it really was.
BEHAR: Ok, I`ve got to --
OXMAN: I have to disagree -- I have to disagree with that.
BEHAR: All right. Last word and then I have to go. Brian, go ahead. That`s it? Ok.
OXMAN: I think that -- I think Michael really liked to portray children as the heroes of the world. I think that`s what he wanted to do.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, you can agree to disagree. And we had a very interesting conversation.
Thank you everyone, very much.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: CNN anchor, Don Lemon, has been in the gallery of the Conrad Murray trial for the past two days. Here to give us his up close observations on the trial and reactions from the Jackson family is Don Lemon. Hey, Don.
Don, what is the mood like in the courtroom?
LEMON: Hi Joy.
BEHAR: Yes, hi.
LEMON: Well, the mood today is a little bit different especially with the family members. The family members seem a bit more relaxed today. They`re smiling. They`re more friendly. They`re kind of touching each other.
I think the family -- and speaking to sources who are close to the family -- they realize that a house divided, Joy, does not stand. So they`re sticking together and they`re watching and surrounding Katherine Jackson like a hawk and protecting her from people who are in the courtroom, from the media and they`re just really supporting her.
So the mood in the courtroom today more contentious, I think, when it comes to testimony but it`s wider when it comes to the family.
BEHAR: Well, that`s understandable that they would circle the wagons for their family. Very good. There were eight Jackson family there yesterday. Were they all -- all of them were back today?
LEMON: It was all the same members. There was one -- one of the non- famous Jacksons who was there -- I can`t recall her name. Then there was Jermaine Jackson was there, Rebbie Jackson is there, Latoya Jackson is there. Of course, Katherine is there, Tito, Janet as well. And usually sitting next to her is one of the daughters who will put their arms around their mother on occasion, to rub her shoulders, complaining about her shoulder today. Latoya sort of mouthed to her like, is your shoulder hurting then she started to rub it.
And there was an interesting exchange after the break this morning between Janet and her mom and her dad. Janet wanted her mom to sit next to her and said, come on, mom, come sit over here and they all stood up. And then the mom says I`m ok, I`m ok. And then Joe looked at me and he goes, "Don, see what they`re trying to do to me? They don`t want me sitting next to them." And I said, well, they`re supporting their mom so it was all good.
BEHAR: Well, you know, I was wondering, the prosecution showed this sort of ghoulish picture of the lifeless body of Michael Jackson. I mean how did the family react to that?
LEMON: You know, everyone in the court was just stunned by that. You could hear gasps, people in the courtroom, the observers and the jury, they`re not supposed to react. But there were audible gasps. The family just sort of started looking around at each other like this, and searching for tissues to pass it down the row to their mom. And you could see the mom crying and wiping her tears away and the rest of the family members as well.
And when that audio came up, when, you know, that recording of his voice, Joy, I mean, you know, we all have mothers, we all have families. And sitting there being so close to the family, it`s like church pews, right -- I`m sitting right behind Katherine Jackson and Joe Jackson and Janet and it`s just odd to be there and not want to put your hand on someone`s shoulder because they`re reliving this nightmare all over again.
No one wishes that on any family. And that says nothing about the guilt or innocence on Conrad Murray. We`re all human and it`s sad to see that.
BEHAR: I know and it`s such a high-profile case and people have to be subjected to this type of exposure. It`s very, very sad.
But anyway, thank you, Don, very much.
LEMON: Yes. All righty.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Michael Jackson was known by almost everyone in the world but one person who really knew him the best and the longest was his older brother, Jermaine. In his new book, "You Are Not Alone: Through a brother`s eyes", Jermaine Jackson gives an inside look into Michael`s life, death and all the controversy surrounding him.
So welcome to the show Jermaine.
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Thank you.
BEHAR: We saw each other earlier today. I feel like I know you now.
You know, the Conrad Murray trial is going to start very soon. Do you think we`ll find out what happened to Michael in that trial?
JACKSON: I really don`t know. That`s why it was important to write the book because I wanted to sort of give the facts and explain how things happened.
BEHAR: Well, reportedly, the doctor gave Michael this drug Propofol, which caused his death. So ipso facto, that would make him culpable. Is he?
JACKSON: Is he meaning what?
BEHAR: He gave it to him. So does that make him guilty?
JACKSON: That makes the doctor -- he was the one that administered it to him outside of the hospital setting, which was wrong, because you need the proper people. He took an oath to take care of his client, not to kill him.
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: At the same time, you have to be licensed to inject Propofol into anyone. You have to be an anesthesiologist. He`s a cardiologist, he knew not what he was doing.
BEHAR: Right. Propofol is the drug that they give people who are going under in a hospital setting. And you know, somebody told me in another interview I did that when you take Propofol, you do not even dream, that`s how deep in a sleep you become. Why do you think Michael had to be so deep in a sleep?
JACKSON: Michael had problems sleeping because of coming offstage and all the excitement. And whether or not he asked for it, the fact that it should have been in a proper setting, should have been administered with the proper person. And it wasn`t. He had a job to keep Michael -- keep Michael healthy, keep him alive.
BEHAR: Yes. But he was taking this Propofol quite regularly.
JACKSON: I really don`t know. Even if he was, the --
BEHAR: The doctor should have known better.
JACKSON: Yes. He should have known better because you have to -- you have to have the right medical equipment to administer this stuff. It wasn`t in a hospital setting. We don`t know how much he was giving him. That`s why we`re hoping we get answers from the trial.
BEHAR: Did you know he was doing this Propofol? Did the family know?
JACKSON: We knew he had problems with sleeping. We knew there was a thing that he was taking Demerol for pain. But none of this had --
BEHAR: What was the pain from?
JACKSON: The pain was from the Pepsi burn and the pain was also for when he --
BEHAR: Pepsi burn -- when he did the commercial?
JACKSON: Yes. Also when he performed in Munich and he fell. He fell on his back because the hydraulics gave way. But the symptoms I write about in the book, the symptoms we never heard he`s never experienced before in his entire life of being on stage. That adds up to what were they doing? How much were they giving him? And it was in an improper setting.
BEHAR: But there was no intervention by the family or anybody else. Did they not know about it? Were they afraid to do something?
JACKSON: The family? There was supposed to have been an intervention in 2001, but there wasn`t because there was not one. But when you have these symptoms that we`ve never heard or he has never experienced before, that`s what brings questions to our minds as to what was the doctor doing? What was his intentions? We would never know if he acted alone because a lot of the surveillance tapes were erased from the house.
BEHAR: That`s funny. A lot of people, they think they can tell the doctor. I know somebody years ago, a friend of the family and she -- her appendix was rupturing, she wouldn`t go to the hospital and the doctor said, well, she doesn`t want to go, and she died.
JACKSON: Wow.
BEHAR: You know, I mean a lot of times the patient and the doctor are in some kind of co-dependency. Do you think that might have had something to do with this?
JACKSON: No, no, no, no. The doctor has given an oath, all doctors do. Their oath is to do their job, according to their law, the medical laws. And Dr. Murray`s job was to keep Michael healthy, to keep him alive. And the fact that he went from being healthy beyond mid-June for this tour and then all of a sudden these things happened, the symptoms.
BEHAR: So you blame the doctor?
JACKSON: I blame the doctor because of his negligence. I blame the doctor because of just irresponsible -- the sad whole situation.
BEHAR: You also write in the book that there was a conspiracy to -- that Michael thought there was a conspiracy to finish him off, to kill him, basically. He wore bullet proof vests. Do you believe that?
JACKSON: Yes, he wore a bullet proof vest here in New York. He was always threatened. We were threatened quite a bit on the "Victory Tour" when we were going to the concerts.
BEHAR: Who threatened him?
JACKSON: There were people -- there were just series of random threats from sick people.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, that happens to a lot of celebrities, I think. It`s not really serious, people say things.
JACKSON: Yes. But you take all threats seriously because you never know. See Michael was such a great star, there was like so much coming at him, and he didn`t trust. Later, he did not trust.
BEHAR: Yes. Who do you think wanted to kill him specifically? I mean do you believe that this Propofol death was deliberate or premeditated in some way or an accident?
JACKSON: If you`re a doctor, I can`t say whether it was an accident because he should have known, whether he should have been putting this in him or not even if Michael asked for it.
BEHAR: I know that part. But I`m saying -- you don`t think it`s deliberate, do you?
JACKSON: What I put in the book, read the book. And what I did is even before the Propofol, I gave you all the events and all the things that took place even from when he put out "Thriller" and was a major success and all of a sudden he`d become all these crazy names and all this stuff, all the way to the point of his death.
I want them to read it to examine for themselves what happened to Michael Jackson. And they need to know especially on Chapter 17 all these false allegations from day one. Michael says in there, to walk in my shoes, to walk in his moccasins, then you can judge him as to who he really was.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, we`ll get to all of that. I want to get to everything in this interview. But I`m still working on this part about, you know, what happened to him.
Your sister, Latoya told me on this show, like call warned her, he said, "I`m going to be murdered for my music publishing." She also said this.
Let`s watch the tape of Latoya.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LATOYA JACKSON, SISTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I think it was a conspiracy, because the way my brother laid it out to me, everything happened exactly the way he said it would happen. I think that there are very many people involved. This was premeditated. It was pre-planned. I think Dr. Murray just happened to be the fall guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She says it was premeditated. Do you think it was premeditated?
JACKSON: I don`t know.
BEHAR: She seems to.
JACKSON: That`s why the trial is so important because there again, I wanted to not yell this or not yell -- we are family members but still we have our own opinion as to what happened.
BEHAR: Right. So you don`t agree with her?
JACKSON: I`m not saying I don`t agree with her. The bottom line is I do agree to the fact that he is not here and it was by the hands of the doctor as well as whoever else was coming in the house that we will never know because the tapes were erased. I`m saying the doctors should have known better. Should have known better.
BEHAR: Yes. Before his death, Michael was rehearsing for a series of 50 concerts. How was his health during that time?
JACKSON: Michael`s health was incredible. He was in shape.
BEHAR: So he was in good shape to do 50 concerts?
JACKSON: He was in very good shape. It started out with 10. He was in very good health. He was dancing four hours a day with Lovell Smith. He was cut, he was ripped, he excited about just all the creative aspects of the show and what he wanted to do when he got there to make changes. Not only that, he was looking forward to doing that and going beyond that by putting a down payment on a home that he wanted in Vegas and he had plans. He had plans to move on beyond "This Is It".
BEHAR: I wonder if there`s any side effects to Propofol. I mean the next day, you don`t have a hangover; you don`t feel -- I mean --
JACKSON: But see, even if he had had Propofol in the past, it had to be with the right anesthesiologist who was licensed and there were never these type of symptoms that --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, apparently he did not know better to ask for an anesthesiologist either.
JACKSON: No.
BEHAR: Michael didn`t.
JACKSON: It`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: -- to administer Propofol, you have to have one.
BEHAR: Right. Well, we reached out to the AEG people, the promoters but they did not return our calls because we were going to ask them about, you know, maybe pushing him too hard.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: But you say no.
JACKSON: Well, pushing him, they were pushing him. They were -- I state in the book, there was one time he didn`t show up for one of the rehearsals at a certain time and they -- from our eyes and ears that were at the rehearsals, they tore into him, they went to his house and they read him the riot act. And it was very tough, it was very tough for him.
BEHAR: Ok and we`re going to take a break and we`ll have much more with Jermaine Jackson all the way. So stay right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up later, Joy dishes the dirt with celebrity chef, Rachael Ray.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And we`re back talking to Jermaine Jackson about the turbulent life and death of his brother, Michael, which was revealed -- which is revealed in -- in Jermaine`s new book, "You are not Alone." Ok.
There`s a lot of family love in the book, right? You had -- you were a loving family in many ways. What kind of boy was Michael as he -- when he was a child?
JACKSON: Michael was a lot of fun. What I put in the book was pretty much the brotherhood, and the love we had for one another when we were growing up. And so many wonderful moments -- wonderful meaning funny times of us just acting like the three stooges and having fun. Food fights on tour.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Food fights.
JACKSON: The Jackson 5 days, of just putting pranks and -- and because at the end of the day, this is to show the human side as well as to address all the things that has -- that has happened. That there`s a beautiful story here because Michael comes from a family we were raised to respect people, to respect one another, to have love for life and love for God`s creations. And he never lost that all through his life.
BEHAR: Yes. Your -- your father, you father Joe, admitted to Oprah that he did whip you kids.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: And you write that Michael would have to pick the branch that Joe would whip him with and he -- and he beat -- he beat up Marlon and Michael the most. Would you say that`s a sadistic behavior?
JACKSON: No. No. He didn`t beat them -- this is -- this is amazing because --back in the day, we were raised a little different from anyone else. We -- we -- we got spankings for things that we were told not to do. We were kids but it -- it wasn`t beatings, it wasn`t abuse and we were raised like any other kids on the block.
BEHAR: So then -- so then why did you write that Michael would have to pick the branch that Joe would whip him with?
JACKSON: We all had to pick a branch which was just a little thing like this and you would just get --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That hurts.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: That hurts, that leaves marks.
JACKSON: But -- but about -- no, no. There were no whips, there were no marks, nothing. The bottom line, is there was so much going on around us, growing up, in a neighborhood that was just infested with gangs and drugs.
BEHAR: Where was this?
JACKSON: In Gary, Indiana.
BEHAR: Gary, Indiana.
JACKSON: And having to duck because -- and turn the lights out and hit the floor because they are shooting and they are fighting right around you. My father did not want us to get involved with that. At the same time, all our friends are either on drugs or dead or -- or just tragic endings.
So he was very careful not to let us get involved in those types of things that were all around us all the time.
BEHAR: I understand that.
JACKSON: But there was nothing about abuse, Michael being younger, he was frightened because anybody young who`s going to get a spanking, they run --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: How old was he when he got spanked?
JACKSON: We were -- we were all like -- he was -- I`m four years older, so if I was 10, he was 6, and it`s just that that`s the way the families were raised in the neighborhood.
BEHAR: Yes.
Well, you know, I understand, you know, why your father and your mother would want you to stay out of gangs and all of those of drugs and other bad behaviors but that`s -- I mean -- so -- so you discipline your children so harshly to keep them away --
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: No, it wasn`t harshly, it wasn`t harshly.
BEHAR: It wasn`t?
JACKSON: No it was not harshly.
BEHAR: All right. Ok. If you say so, it sounded to me like it because I`m totally against spanking.
JACKSON: But I think I was -- yes. But -- but you got to realize the things they call Columbine, kids come to school and he just shoots up his friends and the whole school.
BEHAR: Right.
JACKSON: That comes from nobody not caring for them, disciplining them at the right time, knowing their whereabouts and what`s going on.
BEHAR: Well, I guess.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: No, really. Really.
BEHAR: But that -- Jermaine, there are other ways to discipline children besides corporal punishment, that`s all I`m saying?
JACKSON: No, no it wasn`t that type of punishment. My father didn`t do anything else. He raised the family during a time there was so much going on to come between family. He brought us from Indiana to California drug-free and without getting involved with gangs and we were all loving each other.
BEHAR: Well, ok maybe it didn`t affect you as much but it might have affected Michael --
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: No --
BEHAR: -- because when he asked you if you would cry if your father died and he said that he didn`t think he would. Why not?
JACKSON: Because he was the youngest. He didn`t understand, but he wouldn`t say that today, when they were giving him trouble at the final rehearsals. He -- when he was trying to get people to listen to him at these last days of his rehearsals, he said I bet you if my father come down here you all would listen to me. He loved his father, he respected his father. And he respected his father.
People gave my father a bad rap because he did not kiss butt. When you were wrong, you were wrong. And he did not walk into Hollywood and smile on your face and talk about you behind your back. If he liked you, he liked you, if he didn`t like you, he didn`t like you.
BEHAR: Ok. Back with Jermaine Jackson after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with Jermaine Jackson. You know, Jermaine, there`s all this conversation that we`ve had over the years about Michael sharing his bed with children, ok. What?
JACKSON: Go ahead.
BEHAR: Why did he do that?
JACKSON: Talking about the first case, Michael took care of the family. It was the mother, the kid, the sister, they all have gifts.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Maybe that`s why -- that`s maybe why they didn`t complain.
JACKSON: No. But no one ever said that Michael was seducing the mother. The mother was there all the time with the kids.
BEHAR: Well, maybe he wasn`t interested in the mother.
JACKSON: No. You can`t say that. Have you ever called my brother a pedophile before?
BEHAR: No.
JACKSON: You haven`t?
BEHAR: No. I don`t know. I wasn`t there.
JACKSON: Listen, that first case, the system knew, the media knew -- they knew the extortion attempt the father wanted to do.
BEHAR: Why would he do it? It bothers me that he would think it was ok for people to look at that and say, ok, he`s a 40-year-old guy with little kids --
JACKSON: Because -- because I`ll explained to you why. Michael grew up -- we grew up in a room with bunk beds and all the brothers. Psychologically that never left him, the children together.
BEHAR: I know but you grew up that way, too, and you didn`t do that.
JACKSON: No. I`m still around kids all the time.
BEHAR: You have them in your bedroom?
JACKSON: Absolutely. There`s nothing wrong with that. If I`m responsible for kids and their parents leave them with me, what`s wrong with it? Because that`s never going to cross my mind of doing anything like that. You see, the world today is so demented and so sick that they look at these things the wrong way.
My brother never touched anyone and they knew this and the media knew this too. But they figure, oh, let`s say Michael did this. Why? Because it`s going to create ratings. It`s going to create newspapers. They knew the difference. They knew the truth.
In the book, I speak about all of this. Because when you talk about him, you`re talking about all of us.
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: We`re family, we`re the Jacksons. He`s carrying my name, I`m carrying his.
BEHAR: Well, just -- I think it just has that appearance, you know. And after the molestation charges, he continued to do it. Why do it?
JACKSON: Because he did nothing wrong. He has a wonderful love for children. What you have to realize is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And didn`t you want to have -- yes.
BEHAR: -- Michael is a kid himself. You`re looking at Michael through grown-up eyes.
BEHAR: A little bit of an arrested development, would you say?
JACKSON: He`s looking at kids through child`s eyes because he didn`t have a childhood. There was never -- none of that.
BEHAR: And didn`t you want to whisk him away to Bahrain if those charges held up and he went to jail?
JACKSON: No. That`s not true. Because you have to be --
BEHAR: Well, tell me what it was. Straighten me out.
JACKSON: You have to -- why do they do this?
BEHAR: It`s in the book.
JACKSON: For me to be here, you can rest assured I have researched and made sure everything in this book is true.
BEHAR: Ok. So it`s not true that you were going to escape with him, take him out of the country?
JACKSON: Let me tell you. Let me explain to you.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
JACKSON: Watching my brother being handcuffed for no reason, nine counts of what? What? At the same time, child services, even before these counts, cleared him, investigated him, there`s nothing that he did.
And he knew this, too. At the same time, all this is going on, I`m watching this --
BEHAR: You were worried.
JACKSON: Worried?
BEHAR: You were worried maybe he would not get off -- the charges would not be dropped.
JACKSON: He would not get a fair trial. After hearing the judge say when he had fallen, he went to the hospital and came back, the judge said, if he`s not back in 45 minutes, we`re sending him to jail. This is what they wanted to do.
BEHAR: All right, Jermaine. Thank you very much for this. OK.
His book is called "You Are Not Alone."
Good night, everybody.
END
