Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Michael Jackson`s Death Trial; Interview With Lewis Black
Aired October 04, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, prosecutors say Conrad Murray phoned his girlfriends during Michael Jackson`s final hours when Jackson should have been closely monitored. Two of those women testified today including one who allegedly received Murray`s Propofol shipments. Joy wants to know how damaging this is to the defense`s case.
Then Joy will speak to Anna Nicole Smith`s former doctor about prescription drug abuse in Hollywood. Do private doctors get sucked into the fame game instead of focusing on their patients` health?
Plus we`ll find out what`s irking Joy`s pal, Lewis Black.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Three of Conrad Murray`s "lady-friends" took the stand today as the prosecution continues to hammer away at what the doctor was doing during the final hours of Michael Jackson`s life. And it looks like he spent a lot of time on the phone.
Here now to discuss all of today`s developments is Jane Velez-Mitchell host of "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL"; and Thomas Mesereau, defense attorney and partner in Mesereau NDU (ph). Mesereau also defended Michael Jackson in his 2005 child molestation trial.
Jane, let me start with you.
The women in Conrad Murray`s life took center stage today at the trial. Who knew he was such a player? That he was so hot he has all these women in his life? Talk to me.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST, "ISSUES": This is a ladies` man. He is a player for sure. And it was all sort of cleaned up at the trial because they`re talking about how they met him at social clubs and some of these women are actually referring to strip clubs because three out of the four women who came to the stand over the course of two days in a cluster that was clearly designed to send a message to the jury have worked as exotic dancers.
He clearly frequents strip clubs. And that was something that the jury may not know that exactly, but they`re definitely getting the impression that he got around.
BEHAR: So what was the prosecution --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And he`s married.
BEHAR: Yes. He`s married. I know. I found that out just a minute ago. I didn`t even know that. He`s a beauty.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
BEHAR: Tell me what was the prosecution trying to establish with these women? Exactly?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they established a whole bunch of things. For example, they established at the very time that he was supposed to be watching over Michael Jackson, he is on the phone with these women.
BEHAR: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And at one point, he`s talking to one of the women, Sade Anding, a Houston cocktail waitress. And the phone drops, she continues to listen and she`s hearing a commotion. She`s hearing unidentified voices. She`s hearing coughing, and that was at 11:57.
And that`s when the prosecution believes that Dr. Conrad Murray first notices something is radically wrong with his superstar patient.
BEHAR: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the doctor does not call 911, does not order 911 be called. 911 is not called until 12:20, which is about 23 minutes later. That is a huge delay.
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s listen to the account that one of the former girlfriends had of what happened during their conversation. Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADE ANDING, CONRAD MURRAY`S FORMER GIRLFRIEND: I said hello. Hello. And I didn`t hear anything. That`s when I pressed the phone against my ear and I heard mumbling of voices.
DEBORAH BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: Did you recognize the mumbling to be from Conrad Murray`s voice that you recognized or some voice that you did not recognize?
ANDING: I didn`t recognize the voices at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So the prosecution is contending that that`s when Murray noticed Jackson wasn`t breathing, right? At that moment?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. At that moment, and yet he delayed 23 minutes before ordering 911 be called. And when the paramedics arrived, he said to them, according to their testimony, it just happened right before we called you. So that`s a lie.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much, Jane. Good to see you.
Now, I want to bring in Thomas Mesereau. Thomas, all the women testified they received messages or had conversations with Murray while Jackson was said to be under Propofol. How bad does that look for this guy?
THOMAS MESEREAU, FORMER ATTORNEY OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I think it looks real bad. You know, a lot of drama has been made out of the fact he likes young pretty women. It makes for good copy. But the end of the day the fact that he`s a womanizer, I don`t think is going to make a big difference in the jury room.
What will make a difference is what they had to say in conjunction with all the other evidence and it just adds to this image of unprofessionalism, selfishness, narcissism, someone who`s just a mediocre physician and not tending to his patient who could easily die from what he gave them and did die.
BEHAR: Yes. One of the women, Nicole Alvarez, she testified about how he was taking her to meet Jackson and how they were planning on her going on the tour, you know, and sort of like trying to impress her that he was with this superstar. Do you think that he got a little caught up with the glamour there? Just trying to impress her? What do you think about that?
MESEREAU: Well, he certainly got caught up with it. And most people who met Michael Jackson and had any role in his life, they got caught up, too. He was the biggest celebrity on the planet. He was one of the greatest creative geniuses ever to walk the earth.
I mean most people got carried way. But I don`t think that`s the real problem. The problem is his total incompetence, his total lack of professionalism, his total and focus on himself and while his client is either dying or near death, all he`s thinking about is himself. That`s what`s going to hurt him.
BEHAR: Right. Right. Really.
And Alvarez -- this woman also testified that Murray called her on the way to the hospital. Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLE ALVAREZ, CONRAD MURRAY`S GIRLFRIEND: I remember him telling me that he was on the way to the hospital in the ambulance with Mr. Jackson and for me not to be alarmed because he didn`t want me to be worried because he knew that I would learn this through the news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you make of him calling her? I mean --
MESEREAU: It just looks so unprofessional, so mediocre. And you know, Joy, what really confuses me is this. He`s going to be getting $150,000 a month. He`s going to embark on the biggest comeback in the history of the entertainment business. He has all these great advantage, so why doesn`t he have an anesthesiologist and proper equipment and proper personnel with him to make sure that everything works out. That, I can`t figure out.
BEHAR: Well, do you think he`s just too cheap to pay other people. He would have had to take it out of his $150,000?
MESEREAU: I think he`s cheap. I think he`s star struck. And I think he`s basically a very mediocre physician and unfortunately a pretty mediocre human being to behave the way he did.
BEHAR: Yes.
You know, as we just said before, he`s involved with these three women on the stand today and he`s also married. That looks really -- don`t you think the jurors will take that into consideration also and show what a bad character he is. That he`s an adulterer on top of everything else?
MESEREAU: Well, you know, Jurors are under oath and they take their job seriously. They know a life is in their hands. They know what he`s being charged with and what can happen. They`re not going to necessarily like it but I don`t think that`s going to tip the balance. What`s going to tip the balance is this horrendous evidence that keeps coming in against him.
BEHAR: Yes.
MESEREAU: That`s what they`re going to look at. That`s what they`re going to talk about and I think that`s what might ultimately sink him in this case.
BEHAR: So you don`t think any of these character flaws will influence the jury? They usually do, don`t they, in these type of cases?
MESEREAU: You know, they`re not going to help him, that`s for sure, ok? But very often lawyers enter this character evidence hoping it will tip the balance and when you talk to jurors after a trial, it didn`t make that big a difference, even though the lawyers are hoping it will, whether it`s positive character evidence or negative character evidence.
I don`t think having young girlfriends is going to make the difference. How he behaved when Michael was in trouble is what`s going to really make the difference.
BEHAR: Definitely. And you know, what about the fact that this woman Alvarez had all this Propofol at her apartment? What about that?
MESEREAU: It just looks mediocre. It looks sloppy. It looks unprofessional. And it`s hard to even believe that he`s shipping this stuff to his girlfriend`s apartment, stuff that doesn`t belong in the home to begin with. I`ve never heard anything like this and no physician I`ve ever discussed this with has ever heard of a situation like this.
BEHAR: Could she be involved in this now because she was hoarding the Propofol? Is she now under suspicion for something there, too or no?
MESEREAU: Joy, I don`t think so. I think she`s an unwitting observer. No one`s going to look at her and think she`s culpable or did anything wrong. I don`t think so.
BEHAR: Ok. From Michael Jackson to Anna Nicole Smith -- an inside look at celebrities` access to prescription drugs. We`ll be joined by Anna Nicole Smith`s former doctor next.
Thank you Thomas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The trial of Dr. Conrad Murray has raised a lot of questions about the relationship between some celebrities and their doctors.
Joining me now to talk about this and much more are Judge Larry Seidlin, former Florida State Court Judge who presided over the Anna Nicole Smith body custody case; and Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, Anna Nicole Smith`s former doctor who was acquitted on charges of illegally funneling prescription meds to the former "Playboy" model.
Ok let`s start with the judge. Judge Seidlin, do you see any parallels between Michael Jackson and the Anna Nicole Smith cases?
JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, FORMER FLORIDA STATE COURT JUDGE: Yes. There`s a number of parallels. You have Michael Jackson, Anna Nicole fame and fortune. And when you have fame and fortune, you have power. The idea of being a celebrity in and of itself is powerful.
And you had doctors here, our good friend, Dr. Kapoor was a doctor that was asked to help Anna Nicole with her pain and he prescribed certain drugs. Where this case deviates is that in Dr. Murray, he is a physician for Michael Jackson but he`s an employer-employee relationship. And that`s the problem.
He`s making so much money working for Michael Jackson, $150,000 a month, that`s over a million dollars a year. He has a vested interest to keep a relationship strong with Michael Jackson.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEIDLIN: So he`s almost at the will of Michael Jackson. He serves at the pleasure of Michael Jackson.
BEHAR: That`s right.
Well Doctor, what pressures do you think Conrad Murray was under as Michael Jackson`s physician?
DR. SANDEEP KAPOOR, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S FORMER DOCTOR: Well, arguably he came into a situation that was already disastrous. I mean he -- you know, the history of Michael Jackson in pain or untreated pain, we don`t know really much about his medical history, so he comes into a situation that arguably is over his head.
He may have had issues that he`s not sure how to treat; what other physicians, what other medications he was taking, I don`t think he knew. So he comes into a situation that he`s taking this -- these bizarre medications for sleeping which is never used before and he further faces a situation. What does he do? Does he walk away from a difficult situation?
BEHAR: But that didn`t happen overnight.
KAPOOR: It didn`t happen overnight.
BEHAR: No.
KAPOOR: And that`s the point. I mean whatever Michael`s situation was didn`t happen overnight. And there were other physicians and there were other health care systems that failed him along the way.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
KAPOOR: And now you have a physician who walks in, and arguably, yes, $150,000 is -- is more than I make a year as a general practitioner, so per month, that`s even -- you know that`s crazy. It`s crazy money.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s crazy but it`s tempting.
KAPOOR: It is, when you -- and you`re put in a situation where but -- where you have a lot of debt and he was pressed in a situation. But I have no idea why he didn`t sort of bring in other people.
BEHAR: You were Anna Nicole`s physician for three years, right? Did she ask you for prescriptions? Did you just give her prescription, how did that work?
KAPOOR: Well, she -- she was a patient already of the practice. So she comes into the practice and she -- and I bought the practice and she was part of it.
BEHAR: I see.
KAPOOR: So she only was on medications and I just continued basically what the physicians before has been subscribing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But you know, the other day I went to the doctor and I ask -- I had some pain, I need -- I got some cortisone in my knee right and so I needed a Vicodin and he gave me many more than I needed. I mean I don`t use it but should a doctor say, well, I`m only are going to give you one a day?
KAPOOR: Well I think that it`s again, trusting your patient to understand that you know, generally, people just go into the ER even and just get like medication and they get more than they need usually.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
KAPOOR: And just keep it in their cupboard. But if you`re a patient who has issues with addiction --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right. Then you don`t keep it in the cupboard. Then you use it.
(CROSSTALK)
KAPOOR: Then it`s down the hatch.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes.
KAPOOR: I mean, so you have to really -- every patient is different and every patient is going to handle things differently. You may have a bad reaction to it and you don`t give it to them. The important thing is you went in --
BEHAR: Yes.
KAPOOR: -- the point is you went into the doctor in the beginning.
BEHAR: That`s right. Ok, let`s talk about Dr. Murray for a second again.
Now, he bragged to a girlfriend about being Michael Jackson`s doctor. We saw that and even brought her to meet the star.
Now Judge, is that kosher for a -- for a doctor to bring his girlfriend to meet a celebrity and get it all mixed up like that. Is that ok?
SEIDLIN: No, that`s not a kosher hot dog at all. He -- he -- he stepped over the line. He had to maintain a doctor-patient relationship and he didn`t. He became an employee of Michael Jackson, serving at his pleasure, bringing his strippers to meet Michael Jackson. He started to have a vested interest in Michael Jackson liking him and approving of him. And he just gave out drugs to Michael Jackson. He gave an -- he ordered enough drugs for Michael Jackson to light up one of your Christmas trees in Rockefeller Center.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEIDLIN: How much -- four gallons of Propofol. It was an insane amount of drugs. And he was going to bring that to London for Michael Jackson`s 50 concerts which he wasn`t going to be able to perform.
BEHAR: Now not as a friend of you -- but you were photographed with Anna Nicole at a gay pride parade I understand. Now is that professional, is that ok?
KAPOOR: Well, that particular day again was a charity event, it was one day and I don`t think that was ok because I actually wrote it in my diary that night which was part of the trial last year as my own sort of confession. But I believed it was inappropriate.
BEHAR: Yes.
KAPOOR: And you know, we`re human and we make mistakes. That was one day out of three years I treated her that I -- that I actually did socialize with her. So I don`t think it`s ok in certain circumstances to - - to socialize with celebrities.
BEHAR: I mean, to me it`s like -- if you`re friends with your doctor, I don`t really see what`s wrong with that on the face of it. I have doctors and I`d love to be friends with my doctors. You know but -- I`m on television. Does that make it different?
KAPOOR: I think it does. And unfortunately that`s the case. You kind of have this barrier that`s artificial. And, you know, it can be always construed the wrong way it`s always about what kind of venue where you at and you know it --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It doesn`t look good.
KAPOOR: It doesn`t look good generally. But again, it depends on the type -- Anna Nicole Smith unfortunately was known for being kind of a mess. And that`s unfortunately what her persona was and so it`s assumed that everything is kind of -- everyone else around her is --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I think that`s a similar perception of Michael Jackson, I think, when he was alive, that he was a kind of mess, too, right?
KAPOOR: Well, I mean, I think there are definitely issues there. And then, he isolated himself arguably.
BEHAR: Yes.
KAPOOR: But he wasn`t out hanging out at the clubs or doing different things.
BEHAR: No, no.
KAPOOR: But he had a lot of issues that we don`t know a lot about either.
BEHAR: Judge, do you think Conrad Murray is negligent, now that you`ve studied the case a little bit?
SEIDLIN: Yes. What happens here is the prosecutor has to prove gross negligence. Negligence would be a civil lawsuit which I think we`ll see soon. But the -- but was Dr. Murray grossly negligent? I believe so.
Each act that the state attorney, the prosecutor is showing shows gross negligence. He should have had a medical team around him, Dr. Murray. He`s making $150,000 a month. He could have had nurses there. He should have had proper medical --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why do you think he didn`t -- why do you think he didn`t have nurses there?
SEIDLIN: I believe that reflects on the fact of his actions, that if he had professionals around him, they would have -- it would have raised so many red flags. He didn`t have the proper equipment around him.
BEHAR: Right.
SEIDLIN: I think if the professionals were there, Joy, it would have shown he dropped the ball, that he was grossly negligent. That`s why he started to hide some of the equipment that was around. That`s why he didn`t let the emergency team know that he had given Michael Jackson this Propofol. When he went to the hospital, he doesn`t state it to the doctors there.
BEHAR: Ok. We`re going to take a break. We`ll have some more after that. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later, Hank Williams, Jr. is in hot water after comparing President Obama to none other than Hitler.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. We`re talking about celebrities and their doctors.
Doctor, this guy, Murray, he was on the phone with his girlfriend while Michael was in the next room on Propofol. Don`t you think -- does that sound -- that sounds really bad to me. Here`s the guy inside on medication that really should only be administered in a hospital with a staff around it. The guy is in the room alone on the drug and he`s in the next room talking to his girlfriends. That looks bad.
KAPOOR: In medical terms, the standard of care is what we look at. The thing is there really is no standard of care for administering Propofol in this manner. So whether he was on the phone or in the bathroom, really there was no equipment that would have registered anything that he knew anything was wrong until it was too late.
So the key is that, you know, whether he -- whether he`s on the phone or not, he wouldn`t be able know that something was wrong with him until he wasn`t breathing.
BEHAR: Why would he leave him alone in there when he knew something could go wrong? He knew it.
Judge, what do you think should happen to Dr. Murray? What`s your opinion?
SEIDLIN: He will be wearing a striped suit, I believe. The defense hasn`t presented their case yet. But the damages that are being done to his character, to the way he practices medicine. He strongly deviated from the standard of care that should have been applied to Michael Jackson; there`s just gross negligence in so many scenarios, in so many fact patterns.
If you and I were in a restaurant, in a Chinese restaurant, not a kosher one, we`d have to just pick one column, one column that proves that it`s gross negligence. Did I make you think of food as I`m talking?
BEHAR: You`re funny. Do you think that Murray should go to jail?
KAPOOR: I think Dr. Murray, arguably, if he would have walked in -- if I would have walked into that situation, I would have screamed bloody murder and said "My goodness, we have to get this patient to a hospital." And he should have really tried to do that. And I think he probably wanted to do something to try to help him but he was way over his head. And I think that`s the problem.
And you know, I think that looking at those last 24 hours or 12 hours even, it doesn`t look good, based on what I`m seeing.
BEHAR: Does it make either of you nervous -- not nervous about yourselves -- but maybe celebrities can`t go to the doctors anymore?
KAPOOR: It seems like that. I mean celebrities -- sometimes I feel like in Los Angeles, they get worse care because they`re going to specialists that someone knows somebody and they kind of get cut out of like just general medicine.
BEHAR: You always have -- Judge, you always have the feeling like if you`re a celebrity you`re going to get better care. We`ve seen now that that`s not necessarily true.
SEIDLIN: No. If you`re a celebrity, if you`re famous, you`re going to get worse care. That`s the problem, because unfortunately, the power of what we have causes people to defer to us, to sort of give us what we`re asking for. And that`s unfortunate.
As a footnote, joy, you got legal pundits saying that Dr. Murray should have been charged of murder one. Those lawyers should go above the cleaning store where they came from because that`s not going to be -- be -- there`s no malice here.
BEHAR: No. It was an accident.
SEIDLIN: He was just grossly negligent.
BEHAR: Yes. But he`s going to have to pay for that, I think.
SEIDLIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you guys very much.
We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next, are the "Dancing with the Stars" judges actually afraid to critique Chaz Bono for his dancing or lack thereof?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Remember when President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner shared a friendly game of golf a couple of months ago. Well, Hank Williams, Jr., is in hot water after making some controversial remarks about it on FOX and Friends. Watch.
(VIDEO CLIP)
HANK WILLIAMS, JR.: That was one of the biggest political mistakes ever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why?
WILLIAMS: That turned a lot of people off. Come on. Come on. That`d be like Hitler playing golf with Netanyahu. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
WILLIAMS: Not hardly. You know, they`re the enemy. They`re the enemy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who`s the enemy?
WILLIAMS: Obama and Biden. Are you kidding? The three stooges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s really good in math also. With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Rob Shuter, Naughty But Nice columnist for the Huffington Post, Wendi Mclendon-Covey, actress from Bridesmaids and Rules of Engagement, and Cameron Mathison, host of Ultimate Proposal on Yahoo Screen. OK. You know, they don`t talk this much about Hitler in Germany. Why is Hitler always the topic in this country?
ROB SHUTER, NAUGHTY BUT NICE COLUMNIST, HUFFINGTON POST: It`s so silly. It`s a very, very bad way to start or finish any conversation. You`re never ever going to win if you use the Hitler word.
BEHAR: That`s true, isn`t it. I mean, other people have gotten into trouble for doing it also. Why?
WENDI MCLENDON-COVEY, ACTRESS: It`s a horrible, horrible reference. It takes, I mean -- comparing the -- the person who caused the mass genocide of millions of Jews to ..
BEHAR: Yes, and others.
MCLENDON-COVEY: ..a man who wants health care for all of America`s citizens is like comparing apples to some fruit that sings about football.
BEHAR: But I don`t (INAUDIBLE)
MATHISON: Did he seem drunk to anybody else?
BEHAR: He might have been drunk.
MATHISON: Was it -- was -- I mean, I, you know, I`m putting that out there but I feel bad for the guy for two reasons: A. If -- if he means what he said -- if he meant that then I have a lot of compassion for the guy to be so completely lost and twisted and if he doesn`t -- if he didn`t mean it, then, I mean, this -- not thinking about what he said, it`s obviously going to affect his career and he`s got to (INAUDIBLE). Either way, he`s going down.
BEHAR: I felt as though -- I talked about it today on The View and I thought he was trying to make a comparison between the fact that they were opposites, Boehner and Obama and he used Hitler and Netanyahu as opposites.
MCLENDON-COVEY: Yes.
BEHAR: So, I`m not sure that he meant to call President Obama Hitler. I`m not sure of it. I`m not sure.
MATHISON: I don`t think it matters -- I don`t think it...
MCLENDON-COVEY: He probably didn`t but he`s ignorant. We don`t need to bring out Hitler`s name every time something comes up.
BEHAR: Exactly.
MCLENDON-COVEY: Let`s put it to bed, let`s put it to rest. We don`t need to talk about him.
BEHAR: This whole topic (INAUDIBLE).
MCLENDON-COVEY: Idi Amin, he doesn`t get any mention.
MATHISON: That`s got to be an indication of how quickly somebody goes to the Hitler reference, how often Hitler is on his mind. You know what I`m trying to say?
BEHAR: That`s a good point, right?
MATHISON: You know, why is he going to that reference so frequently?
BEHAR: Yes, you`re right.
MCLENDON-COVEY: He looks like the Unabomber.
MATHISON: I`m -- I`m pretty convinced he was (INAUDIBLE).
SHUTER: And there are consequences now that his song has been pulled...
BEHAR: He apologized.
SHUTER: ...he has apologized and his song has been pulled from, I think, ESPN.
BEHAR: Was that fair to take the song off?
MCLENDON-COVEY: I think that...
BEHAR: Can`t you separate the man from the stupidity?
MCLENDON-COVEY: (INAUDIBLE) a little football song.
BEHAR: But, can`t you -- can`t you separate the man from the stupidity -- from the artist from the man? (INAUDIBLE).
MATHISON: But, don`t you want people that are involved in your show, whose voice is on your show, I mean, you`ve got your own show, you have two shows, to be sort of like an extension of that show and what you`ve -- I mean, you know...
BEHAR: Yes, you do.
MATHISON: ...I mean, you do, and so, if there`s question there, then, I -- you know, it makes sense. I don`t know it was totally necessary.
SHUTER: I kind of like there being consequences. Quite often there are no consequences so I think it`s -- it`s good to have consequences for the things you say. Maybe we`ll think a little bit more.
BEHAR: OK, all right, let`s do another story. Now, Thomas Jane, who plays a male prostitute on the HBO series Hung -- it`s a good show, revealed to the LA Times that he turned tricks himself when he first moved to Hollywood. This is what he said, quote, "I didn`t have any money and I was living in my car. I was 18, I wasn`t averse to going down to Santa Monica Boulevard and letting a guy buy me a sandwich, you know what I mean?" What does he mean, Rob?
SHUTER: I think he -- (INAUDIBLE) did tricks. I don`t know what he means. What he was trying to do, though, is get himself out of trouble. He said something a days earlier that offended a lot of gay people, saying that he would end the show once he ended up having a you know what in his mouth.
BEHAR: Oral sex, yes, yes, yes.
SHUTER: And, so, gay guys, the gay community got very angry at this so, to prove that he`s part of that community, I think...
BEHAR: He said that he was promiscuous and gay. Well, that is really a crazy way -- that`s a crazy way to get around something, isn`t it?
SHUTER: Yes. (INAUDIBLE).
MATHISON: I mean, I, personally, I don`t really see what`s so wrong about him coming out and saying this. You know, a lot of people kind of get -- I mean, I think it may be therapeutic for him, maybe he needed to put it out there, maybe he had other motives like -- like Rob`s saying.
MCLENDON-COVEY: Yes.
MATHISON: But, I -- I don`t know, I mean, sometimes it`s sort of interesting when you hear somebody`s twisted past and how they got to where they are.
BEHAR: Doesn`t it hurt the actor`s career, though, a little bit, or not?
SHUTER: No, I don`t think so.
MCLENDON-COVEY: I think it would hurt his dating career.
BEHAR: With the women, right?
MCLENDON-COVEY: I`m being serious, yes, I`m being serious. I think it`s OK not to tell every single detail about yourself. I would love to, you know, not hear so much about everybody.
BEHAR: But he said that after this he can`t -- after this there`s no mystery any more. After this period of experimentation he quote "chose to be a heterosexual guy." He`s as bad as these right-wingers who think it`s a choice to be gay. I mean, I -- I just don`t think it`s a choice that you make, like, you know, you didn`t choose to have blue eyes, you just have them, or are those contacts?
MATHISON: See, it is a choice.
MCLENDON-COVEY: I just have them. Yes, but what would Hitler say?
BEHAR: He`d say, I love those blue eyes. Last night on Dancing With The Stars, J.R. Martinez`s dance was very moving, Nancy Grace -- Nancy Grace gave him two nipples up. Chaz Bono struggled through his rumba. Watch.
(VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But you definitely seemed not quite focused into the dance. I know, it`s killing me to say this but I have to say -- so, and I also just felt like you didn`t dance enough in this -- in this rumba and it`s breaking my heart to say this because I just find you to be such an inspiration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Cameron, why is she so nice to him? I mean, and I like Chaz, he`s a great guy at this point, you know, he`s a nice person, I`ve met him a couple of times, but his dancing last night sucked, OK? And why -- why does she have to be so nice? There`s something about him.
MATHISON: First of all, I would never want her -- I would never want to have that job because, you know, she -- here she is, she`s trying to support him, she believes in his message and his cause and, yet, you know, she doesn`t believe in the dance that he -- that he just did and I -- I thought she sort of walked the line a little bit. She was able to get the point across that it was not his best dance without kind of like...
BEHAR: Yes.
MATHISON: ...throwing him under the bus.
BEHAR: Well, you were on Dancing With The Stars.
MATHISON: I was, and they weren`t so nice to me.
BEHAR: (INAUDIBLE). Now, why not?
MATHISON: Well, you know.
BEHAR: They figured you could take it? Do they feel that he`s too fragile or something?
SHUTER: You`re getting to something. I think that what we`re trying to say here is that maybe because he had a sex change they`ve gone a little easy on him. I`m not sure. However, what I am sure about is that Cher is the smartest person in the world. Last night, she Tweeted while the voting was going on, if Chaz survives I will be in the ballroom next week.
BEHAR: Oh, so good publicity for her...
SHUTER: And they`re all going to vote because they want to see Cher next week.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
MCLENDON-COVEY: Oh, that`s -- that is brilliant.
BEHAR: Yes, but, wasn`t that song performed by Sonny Bono?
MCLENDON-COVEY: So, it`s like, you -- you got a sex change, you`re dancing to your dead dad`s song, I wouldn`t say anything bad. Do the boys usually dance a lot during the rumba?
MATHISON: I didn`t think it was that bad to begin with, I don`t know, maybe...
MCLENDON-COVEY: I didn`t think it was terrible.
MATHISON: ...I don`t think so either.
BEHAR: Oh, come on.
MATHISON: Really?
BEHAR: What? Am I the only one who was watching it?
(CROSS-TALK)
BEHAR: But he was avoiding landmines. This is not the rumba. I`m sorry. I`ve seen the way the rumba looks like, OK?
(CROSS-TALK)
MCLENDON-COVEY: (INAUDIBLE) awful, I don`t know. And don`t people just -- don`t -- doesn`t everybody just sort of, you know, in the beginning stages of this show, it`s not really about the talent, I mean, until -- until the final three.
BEHAR: Now it is, OK? Now I want to see some...
(CROSS-TALK)
MATHISON: (INAUDIBLE) my boy J.R., you know.
MCLENDON-COVEY: (INAUDIBLE) the full splits next week.
BEHAR: J.R. can dance. I like him a lot.
MATHISON: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: Now, what about the fact that Rob Kardasian, who`s another person on Dancing With The Stars, he`s put out this word that -- that people were having affairs, like, with the celebrities, like, the dancers and they`re married and this and that and then he said he was just kidding. Was he kidding?
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you think so?
SHUTER: I think so. I hope so.
BEHAR: Well, you were there. Were they doing something when you were there?
MATHISON: Well, first of all, no, I have no idea.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSS-TALK)
MATHISON: You`re talking to a guy who made a living for 14 years rolled around with women in lingerie making out for a living, that was my job on All My Children. So, what`s the big deal about doing a little dancing with somebody? For me, this is so ridiculous starting these rumors because they`re spending a few hours rehearsing together, you know.
BEHAR: Well, they`re awfully -- they snuggle up to each other, they - - they`re all like in these interpretive moves, like (INAUDIBLE).
(LAUGHTER)
MATHISON: These people are entertainers. They`ve done far more risque things. I don`t know.
MCLENDON-COVEY: Yes, I`m sure.
MATHISON: You know, if they are maybe it`s a good thing where I was putting it out there and I took (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: OK.
MCLENDON-COVEY: I`m more offended by the fact that Rob Kardasian is a lesser Kardasian and we were told we were only get A-listers on this and that is not A-list.
BEHAR: Thank you guys, you heard it here. You can catch Wendi, who does (INAUDIBLE) in Bridesmaids which is out now on DVD and then Rules of Engagement which premieres Saturday at 8 and see the lovely Cameron Mathison`s Ultimate Proposal on Yahoo Screen, back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Thousands of neurotic people pay hundreds of dollars an hour to vent their anger but Lewis Black comes here instead and does it for free. Here to vent on politics and anything else that`s annoying him is Lewis Black. His new CD is Lewis Black. What a title. The Prophet. Lewis, lovely to have you here.
LEWIS BLACK, COMEDIAN: Good to be here.
BEHAR: And why are you the prophet?
BLACK: I`m not, and that`s kind of a tongue-in-cheek, ironic, good luck, yeah, I`m the prophet.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: Some guy who`s half nuts wandering around the United States, bellowing like a lunatic.
BEHAR: I know, on the bus. But, you know, what do you think about -- let`s talk about politics because, you know, I know that`s your favorite subject.
BLACK: Oh, I love it.
BEHAR: Yes, did you -- have you been -- have you been watching the Republican debates? What do you think about the Republican candidates?
BLACK: I think it`s the -- I think what the Republicans have done is their response to the ineffectual -- the Democrats ineffectuality is to move toward ignorance in kind of a counterbalance. We`ve never really -- I did not think we could go beyond stupid. They tried stupid, we tried it for a long time, and they said let`s see if we just totally bereft of any intelligence we were given by God...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...and let`s go -- let`s not even take science -- let`s dismiss science completely, let`s, you know, but what did we study it for? What -- did those guys ever study it? Did they ever...
BEHAR: Rick Perry, you mean, people like him. I don`t think he believes in evolution, he doesn`t believe in climate change.
BLACK: No, the climate change -- there`s no global warming or as my friend, John Bowman the comic says, you know, he`s standing there -- we`re watching CNN, he`s standing there, the fires are licking...
BEHAR: In Texas.
BLACK: ...behind him, it`s 50 days over 100 degrees, well, there`s no such thing as climate change. Are you nuts? Oh no, you`re just standing in hell. That`s where you are.
BEHAR: Well, maybe that`s what he thinks is happening to him. The Apocalypse.
BLACK: Well, if it`s the Apocalypse, I am -- you know, people are -- what do you think about that? Well, for me as a Jew, it`s great because I get beachfront property.
BEHAR: Why, what`s going to happen to you?
BLACK: Well, they all go away. Everybody leaves. It`s (INAUDIBLE) here too.
BEHAR: Only the Jews are left.
BLACK: No the Jews -- you`re a Catholic, you`re screwed.
BEHAR: So, I don`t understand. What`s going to happen?
BLACK: They leave. They go.
BEHAR: Who`s they? Who leaves?
BLACK: The -- the ones who believe, the ones who believe in Jesus. I`m sure I`ve screwed this up because I really didn`t study this but -- but from what I`ve gathered on my -- my travels...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...and the people, you know, occasionally sitting next to a born again Christian on the plane telling me that I`ll be frying in hell I`ve -- I`ve garnered that they leave. You know, Jesus comes...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...I`m sure there`s more to the story, and he gathers everybody. They don`t go by bus, they kind of whip the souls, they go woo, they`re gone. I don`t know where they go but we`re here and it`s supposed to be kind of terrible but I can`t imagine it if they`re gone.
BEHAR: I say. OK. Well, that`s something to look forward to.
BLACK: I think so, well, that`s why whenever they say, you know, oh, it`s coming, it`s coming, I go, good, fine. Let`s -- let`s get there. Let`s move on.
BEHAR: OK, what about -- what about ...
BLACK: One less commercial to deal with, huh?
BEHAR: .. what about the fact that -- that -- did you read the whole thing this week about the hunting lodge that the -- that Perry`s family was still using and it had the N word in it?
BLACK: Yes, the N (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: What about that?
BLACK: Well, that`s -- that was the first time that they thought maybe he shouldn`t run? That was the big bring-down? Woo. That his family went to that hunting lodge as opposed to the fact that the man jogs with a gun strapped to his side? That -- that was a tip off to a little kind of marginal problem?
BEHAR: Maybe he needs to jog with a gun.
BLACK: Who needs to jog with a gun? You could lose your whole, you know, your pecker.
BEHAR: You could shoot your...
BLACK: It could be gone -- it could be gone.
BEHAR: ...what about the fact that Herman Cain says he`s not a racist, though. He says he`s not a racist.
BLACK: Well, fine then. You know, Herman...
BEHAR: I mean, they`re in cahoots, those two, about this.
BLACK: ...well, they like each -- everybody there likes each other...
BEHAR: Not really.
BLACK: ...well, they do because they basically the average I.Q., I think, is 85.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: So, it`s kind of a nice grouping.
BEHAR: Well, you know, Perry and Romney and also Huntsman are very good looking men, I think.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: They`re all handsome. They have a hairdo and a look.
BLACK: Huntsman gets lost. Huntsman, actually, I think, has a fairly decent working intelligence and he`s just lost and he`s like, well, boy, what he -- he believes in some stuff, he believes in evolution? Please.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: You know, they marginalize. I mean, what -- what kind of a party have they become and -- and let`s just get this straight, America. You know, don`t put me on the Obama train either. You know, what he gave us was what I expected was someone who speaks in paragraphs. Woohoo.
BEHAR: Who, Obama?
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: But he does.
BLACK: Well, that`s what he -- that`s all I thought I`d get from him and I did.
BEHAR: Right.
BLACK: Everybody else thought oh, it`s going to be change, change, change. I thought paragraphs. That`s what we got and, woohoo, and then they yell at him for giving us paragraphs. I think that`s the most you can hope for at this point. We`re not even getting it from those -- the Republicans.
BEHAR: No, they don`t speak in paragraphs, no.
BLACK: No, they (INAUDIBLE) and then they get a chewy stick and run around in circles and pee.
BEHAR: And Herman Cain had lunch with Donald Trump this week.
BLACK: They all do, they come in...
BEHAR: Why do they all want to have lunch with Donald Trump?
BLACK: ...I don`t know because he`s a -- I don`t know -- I don`t know -- I almost said it. I did. I say it on stage in my act.
BEHAR: Don`t say it here.
BLACK: I won`t say it because I don`t need him calling me.
BEHAR: Exactly.
BLACK: And you don`t either.
BEHAR: And I don`t either. But, I mean, why do they go to him? He`s like the Oracle of Delphi.
BLACK: Well, because I think he-- you know, he was the first one to throw his hair into the ring. And boom, boom, boom, and how good was that joke? He was the first one, he was, and the thing about Donald Trump to me is that he says he`s a self-made man and his father owned a ton of real estate in New York, which means what? Which means his father could have raised a chimpanzee and the chimpanzee would have been a self-made chimp.
BEHAR: What about Christie? He`s not -- he`s not running as of today.
BLACK: Well, that`s the -- you know, and why would he run?
BEHAR: You think it`s legit to make fat jokes about him?
BLACK: I -- I thought it was the -- the approach should have been that if Obama, who`s like the, you know, if you went to Wal-Mart and you had these -- and let`s say there were products...
BEHAR: Right.
BLACK: ...you know, and Obama was over here and that was the size and you paid, let`s say $300 for that product, but, for $325 you get Christie, who`s massive...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...then I would go for Christie because it`s like three Obamas for the price of one.
BEHAR: Oh, I see, so it`s quantity rather than quality.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: I see. OK, we`re going to take a break. We`ll have more with Lewis Black after a very quick break. Stay there, OK?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with comedian Lewis Black. His new CD is called The Prophet. Now, when you`re not on the road, what do you do with your time? Would you like to be on a show like Dancing With The Stars, for example?
BLACK: What do you think? They asked me to be on it.
BEHAR: They did?
BLACK: Yes, and I said I would rather spend the time doing as the kids who are kindly mildly neurotic, cutting myself. And the show -- the show would be called Lew Black Cuts Himself and then each week I would think about something or bring -- watch a video of like Dancing With The Stars and just go on scratching myself -- not deeply, not deeply, and I don`t mean to make jokes about it so shut up and don`t send a letter.
BEHAR: Nobody said a word.
BLACK: But they will. They will. There`ll be like 20,000 Tweets, oh crap, he`s talking about cutting and he did and it shows no sensitivity to the children out there.
BEHAR: I think that when you`re a comedian sensitivity is the last thing on your list. Let`s watch a -- let`s watch a video from Dancing With The Stars last night of Chaz Bono.
BLACK: Oh, I was hoping...
(VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What do you think?
BLACK: Looked like Christie.
BEHAR: That was...
BLACK: Isn`t it?
BEHAR: No, that was Sonny`s -- Sonny`s boy.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: Chaz Bono. And -- and it seems to me and we were talking about it earlier, that the judges don`t want to say anything bad to him.
BLACK: Well, you know.
BEHAR: Because he can`t dance. Obviously, and not in that -- not in that video.
BLACK: No, in most of them he really can`t dance and why are we watching it? Why -- why would a country that can`t dance watch people dance?
BEHAR: Maybe that`s why they watch people who they think can dance because they can`t dance.
BLACK: No, that`s insane, isn`t it? You should have an interest in it, shouldn`t you, Joy?
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: Shouldn`t it be something that you kind of do? And you think, ooh, now I`ll watch people who really do it well as opposed to I`m sitting here and get me another big giant pizza and let`s watch some dance. Do you want to dance? No. I`m going to go take a potty, OK?
BEHAR: So, in other words, in Russia, where they really know how to dance the ballet, they would go to the ballet because...
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: ...most people, those alcoholics in Russia, know how to do the ballet? I don`t think so.
BLACK: Well, no, they don`t...
BEHAR: I don`t know what you`re talking about.
BLACK: ...but there`s a big difference between ballet, which is art, and a waltz or a cha cha cha.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: Or a tango or even chiapanecas, a piano song. I thought it was the dance that went that -- did you, when you were a kid, did you ever think a cotillion or dance when you were like ...
BEHAR: No, I -- I grew up in a ghetto. I grew up in a ghetto.
BLACK: I know you grew up -- I know your parents -- I know your chains....
BEHAR: We couldn`t afford a cotillion.
BLACK: ...I know, your chains on your legs, they wouldn`t let you out to dance.
BEHAR: All right, we`re going to -- oh, and I`m done with you.
BLACK: Oh, you can`t be done with me.
BEHAR: Yes, I`m done with you for now. Lewis Black`s new CD is called The Prophet. Be sure to stay tuned for Showbiz Tonight, A.J. Hammer will have a look at Amanda Knox`s return to the States. Thank you for watching. Good night everybody.
END
