Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Michael Jackson Death Trial, Jackson Friend Interviewed, Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore Divorce Rumors
Aired October 06, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, prosecutors in the Conrad Murray trial trot out witnesses from the coroner`s office for more explosive testimony after yesterday`s harrowing round of Michael Jackson audiotapes. Joy will have the latest.
Then, Joy speaks to one of Michael`s dear friends about the real life "King of Pop," the man the world didn`t see, and if the star ever let on that he was in so much pain.
Plus, as Sarah Palin says she won`t run for president, Fox News chief, Roger Ailes admits he hired her not for her politics, but because she`s hot.
That and more starting right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOY BEHAR, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Conrad Murray is fighting back. Lawyers for Michael Jackson`s doctor have begun trying to poke holes in the evidence against their client. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Miss Fleak, Would you agree with me that you made substantial number of mistakes in your investigation of this case?
ELISSA FLEAK, INVESTIGATOR: No.
CHERNOFF: You wouldn`t? Well, would you agree with me that if you don`t take notes, you don`t keep your notes, that`s bad investigation, that`s bad investigative work? Wouldn`t you agree?
FLEAK: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: "No." Here with the latest from the trial is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on truTV.
Brian (SIC), "no."
(LAUGHTER)
RYAN SMITH, IN SESSION: No, Joy. I`ll tell you what. Joy, it was beat up on investigators day, today, in court today, I`ll tell you. Right off the bat, that`s what the defense tried to attack, the idea that she didn`t take notes, that she did what`s called "selective photography," taking photographs of certain evidence, but not of other evidence and this is evidence that could possibly exonerate Dr. Conrad Murray, so they really went to town on the coroner`s investigator. But keep in mind, she was there even before it was a crime scene, so, she may not have been looking for all the things that policemen were looking for, but I`ll tell you, they didn`t look good.
BEHAR: So, do you think she did make those mistakes then? Is that what you`re saying? She did, right?
SMITH: You know what? She didn`t note every single thing that was on the scene. She didn`t note every piece of evidence. The prosecution didn`t admit every single photograph, and that`s what the defense was trying to point out that you`re not getting the full picture here, jury. But I do think in some areas she took some notes, and they just didn`t make it to her final report. One of the biggest parts was they found a bottle of saline -- a bag of saline with a bottle of propofol in it, that`s what Alberto Alvarez, his bodyguard, testified about, but she didn`t put that in her notes.
BEHAR: Why not?
SMITH: So, it became -- yeah, that`s the thing. It became one of those things where the defense was able to say, well, did you really see this there, or did you make this up because Alberta Alvarez, you had heard, saw something like this in that area? And she wasn`t really able to give a good answer for that.
BEHAR: It`s unbelievable.
SMITH: So, it didn`t look good for the investigator.
BEHAR: It`s really unbelievable, there she is, she goes to the scene, she has one thing to do: Take notes, look around, put it down, write it, she can`t do it. What is wrong with these people? Why can`t people do their jobs properly? Really, it`s annoying.
SMITH: You know, it`s a great point. You know what else, you look at this, you look at this situation, and you got to say, this is Michael Jackson, so all the more reason to dot the "I`s" and cross the "T`s," make sure you get it right.
BEHAR: You know, it`s unbelievable. Now, OK, late yesterday, the prosecution lined up bottles of medication that were found at Jackson`s house. Now, what kind of medications did they find?
SMITH: Oh, they found everything from lidocaine, propofol, all kinds of drugs that were in there, and all kinds of drugs, of course, that are related to this particular case. They found IVs, they found saline bags. So, all of this stuff was there, and Joy, the prosecution tried to make it look like there was sort of a mini-drugstore, there.
And the other thing that`s real powerful in this case was, there were bottles of propofol lying on the floor. So, imagine you`re a doctor, you`re administering this to Michael Jackson, yet there`s drug bottles all over the floor, his children are in the house, they could have come in there and taken some of that stuff. So, a very scary scene painted of Michael Jackson`s bedroom.
BEHAR: He`s a slob also, Conrad Murray, can`t even clean up the mess. Thanks, Ryan, very much.
Yeah. OK, now I want to bring in my panel, Judge Jackie Glass, former Las Vegas judge, and host of "Swift Justice," and Dr. Cathleen London, assistant professor at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.
Welcome to the show.
Doctor, what assumptions do you make when you see someone with all those medications in their home?
DR CATHLEEN LONDON, NY-PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I definitely worry about what kind of addiction they have. I think what`s more telling to me about this is that they listed all different kinds of benzodiazepines, not just one, along with the propofol. If you`re a physician...
BEHAR: What`s benzodiazepine?
LONDON: So, that`s things like Atavan, Valium, they`re sedatives. So, and there was like every single one, it was like a mini drugstore.
BEHAR: Really?
LONDON: So, I`ll give this court investigator a little credit that she was so overwhelmed by the number of bottles that she couldn`t do it. But it`s that as the physician if you`ve been hired to take care of him, help him sleep, you know, if he indeed was trying to wean him off of things, why were they just left next to the bed? You know? Why were they in his reach? They should have been under the control of the physician, and not been there at all, especially with children in the house.
BEHAR: So, what do you saying to that? Answer the question...
LONDON: That`s 100 percent gross negligence period, all right?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Put it right out there.
LONDON: You know, it`s malpractice, it`s not doing your role as a physician. Your patient entrusted you, you`re not honoring that.
BEHAR: It`s a mess.
Now Judge, the prosecution showed all the medications, was that a smart move for them to do that?
JUDGE JACKIE GLASS, SWIFT JUSTICE: I think it would have to come out sometime Joy, so it`s better when you have that kind of evidence that you bring it out now instead of letting the defense use it and bring it out later. So, I think they had to bring it out, and they had to show all of those medications to the jury, absolutely.
BEHAR: Does that help Conrad? I don`t get who that helps. Tell me who that helps, Judge.
GLASS: I don`t necessarily think it helps anybody, Joy, because I`m with the doctor in this. I agree from the get go, you have a patient, you`re entrusted to take care of this patient, you bring in a hospital grade medication and give it to him in his bedroom? That`s outrageous to me.
So, I think from the get go, that we`re going through this, and everything we`re hearing about is pretty much window dressing and that by Dr. Murray agreeing, and kind of selling his soul to the devil to get that $150,000 payment every single month, and doing whatever Michael Jackson wanted, by bringing that propofol to the house, to me, that`s enough.
BEHAR: That`s the case, right there.
And today they also...
GLASS: I think so.
BEHAR: They also found -- a toxicologist, to day, testified that they found lidocaine and propofol in his stomach. So, what does that tell you?
LONDON: It was a tiny, tiny, tiny amount,, so what I -- it could just -- it`s really kind of, who cares, it`s incidental, this nonsense that that means he took it orally, I don`t agree, it could have just defused in there. It`s too small an amount to really do anything. Propofol doesn`t absorb that fast.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
GLASS: Have we also heard from doctors that even if he -- they never heard of anybody drinking it.
LONDON: Correct.
GLASS: And if couldn`t have worked in the way they think that the defense is trying to tell us that by drinking that propofol that he`s, you know, that Michael Jackson did this to himself. So, I mean, I`ve heard doctors testify about that, or talk about that on different shows, so I don`t think that`s, you know, what did it.
BEHAR: But, you know, maybe I just don`t get it, but it seems like this case is hanging on that point. If he gave himself the propofol, then Conrad Murray is off the hook.
(CROSSTALK)
GLASS: Well, see -- no, Joy, Joy, Joy.
BEHAR: I mean, is it possible to even do that?
GLASS: No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, but who brought -- who is responsible for that propofol being in the house in the first place?
BEHAR: OK, I agree with that part, but that would be like sort of like aiding and abetting or something.
GLASS: No, no, no, because...
BEHAR: It`s not actually injecting the thing into him.
LONDON: First of all, he hung it, he put it in the bag and hung it, he had it there with no...
BEHAR: Murray.
LONDON: Murray did -- with no monitoring equipment, whatsoever.
BEHAR: Yeah, right. Right.
LONDON: And everything -- and left the room?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I know, but...
GLASS: If you`re going to do this, but if you`re going to do this, at least be smart about it. He wasn`t smart about it. You`re in a bedroom, you`re not in a sterile situation, you`ve got a catheter, you`ve got a needle going into his leg, you`ve no monitors, you have no nurse sitting by his bedside to watch his breathing, you`re out of the room, you`re texting and calling and doing who knows what while your patient...
BEHAR: He was calling his girlfriend.
GLASS : Is lying in the bed. That`s right.
BEHAR: So, it`s not the same thing, let`s say, as a person -- I leave a gun in the room, I know you`re suicidal, and I leave a gun by the bed and you kill yourself, I`m not responsible for that, but I left the gun there?
LONDON: This isn`t the same.
BEHAR: It`s not the same thing?
GLASS: This is a different situation.
BEHAR: Well, the defense pokes holes in the investigation, and points out mistakes. Is the defense simply trying to cast doubt here, and will it work -- Judge.
GLASS: The defense`s job is to muck it up. That`s their job. And their job is to poke holes in every little itty-bitty place that they can because they don`t have, I think, a lot to work with, as far as I can see so far, so far. So every little place, through cross-examination, that they can make it look like something was not handled correctly, is a point for them. But is it going to ever be enough to overcome the state`s case? I really don`t think so?
BEHAR: OK and one more question before we go. You heard the tape of him slurring, was he on propofol to -- or was there something else?
LONDON: OK, so there`s a few things. Yes, it could be the other drugs he was on. Propofol doesn`t stay in your system, but propofol also, especially when you use it over time, has an effect called metabolic acidosis and that`s a metabolic condition that will make you slur, will make you sound out of it.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
LONDON: And his thinking was clear, and I`m wondering if that was what it was and she should have done a blood gas to look for it.
BEHAR: But he didn`t.
LONDON: He didn`t.
BEHAR: OK, thanks ladies, very much. We`ll have more on the Conrad Murray trial after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: A lot of people have a lot of opinions about Michael Jackson. Joining me now is someone who knew him very well, his good friend, filmmaker and author, Gotham Chopra.
Welcome to the so, Gotham. Now -- oh, you look just like your dad. You met Michael when you were 15 and he was 32, right?
GOTHAM CHOPRA, FILMMAKER, AUTHOR: Yeah, that sounds about right, yeah. It was a long time ago.
BEHAR: How did you meet?
CHOPRA: You know, Elizabeth Taylor had actually introduced my father to Michael, to teach him how to meditate and to relax and all the stuff and I remember it was the summer of probably my freshman year of high school, that my dad said, "Yeah, I`m going to go to Neverland and visit Michael Jackson, would you like to come?" Of course, I very excitedly agreed to go, and the rest is it history.
BEHAR: But you became friends with him, it`s kind of odd for a 15- year-old kid to be friends with a guy in his 30s. Were other friends of yours hanging out with older guys like that or did it seem normal to you?
CHOPRA: It seemed normal. I mean, of course, you know, I`m not unaware of the scandals that came through the years and kind of how it sounds, but at the time, you know, this was prior to all the scandals and all of that, and it seemed pretty normal. And Michael was very, you know, beyond just the extraordinary excitement of meeting somebody, who of course, I had idolized growing up. He was a really relatable guy, and we sort of became friends very quickly, and I think Michael related to me, in some ways, immediately, and we built a friendship, from there.
BEHAR: You know, your father wrote that Michael was surrounded by enablers and when you went out on tour with Michael, in the early `90s, did you witness something like that?
CHOPRA: Yeah, I think -- I mean, you couldn`t be around him and not see that there were enablers or just a sort of entourage, but it wasn`t terribly abnormal. I mean, at the time it was the greatest rock tour of all times. And one thing I can tell you, and- that was, you know, in the `90s, the early `90s or mid `90s. You know, Michael was incredibly disciplined when he was out on o the road, when he was giving shows, he would go out at night, he didn`t smoke, he didn`t drink, he didn`t party, didn`t do any of that stuff. Later in life, you know, maybe more of that, but at that time, I mean, he was a pretty amazingly focused performer.
BEHAR: So, you didn`t notice that he was on drugs or that he was addicted to anything then, I take it?
CHOPRA: No, and you know, to be honest, I was 18 years old, and I was on a rock tour, and I was having too much fun to notice if anybody was abusing stuff. That`s probably me.
BEHAR: Really? Oh, this is a good interesting conversation we`re having now all of a sudden, Gotham.
CHOPRA: Yeah.
BEHAR: Well, you know what, we heard a tape of Michael played at the trial today, or yesterday and he had a very -- we`ve heard a couple of them, at this point and it struck me the deep voice he had, because the way we remember Michael, he had this rather child-like voice. Was the child like voice for real, in your opinion, or was it an affectation or was it something that kept him feeling safe? What was that?
CHOPRA: You know, I wouldn`t be the right person to psychoanalyze it too much, but I think I do know Michael was an incredible performer, he was acutely aware, at all times, especially when he was performing, he was an actor, mischievous. And I haven`t heard that audio, and I purposely kind of avoided a lot of the stuff around the case, but it wouldn`t surprise me, to be honest, if Michael was a guy -- he was almost like a ventriloquist, he used to crank call me all the time and pretend to be -- voice -- and a lot of times I had no idea. I mean, he was really good at it.
But there`s also no denying that Michael obviously had gotten himself into, you know, a lot of trouble with a lot of these prescription pills and stuff like that and so obviously those have an effect, as well.
BEHAR: Yeah. In one of the tapes that was played, he said that, basically, he said he was denied a childhood. Did you hear those kinds of complaints from him?
CHOPRA: Endlessly. I mean...
BEHAR: Oh, yeah?
CHOPRA: And then I don`t think it was just his interpretation, I mean, it was a literal fact that he was on the stage from the age of five years old, he was performing, he was both being pushed, but also pushing himself and he never had those experiences -- not even, you know, even his brothers, with whom he was very close and he performed, you know, he was isolated within even that, sort of, family group and dynamic. You know, while they all had lives and girlfriends and played basketball, he used to talk about that a lot, he never had that experience and obviously that had a huge effect, in terms of the person and the adult he was to become.
BEHAR: Is that because he was the most talented one, at the time? Is that why, because his father pushed him the more? Because he was the moneymaker, really right?
CHOPRA: He was the moneymaker, and a star. I mean, he was, you know, not unlike a lot childhood stars and probably the most iconic of all times. I mean, he was gifted and I think that came with great privileges, but it also, obviously, came with a great price.
BEHAR: Yeah, well, but -- I mean, you can understand the poor kid, you know, being driven to work, work, work and it reminds me of the Judy Garland, the Judy Garland story and probably other child actors who resented -- they resented, deeply, that they didn`t get to play like other children and it takes its toll, I think.
Now, I know that you`re not watching the trial, but he`s not really being shown in a good light, Michael. I mean, will this -- do you think this is going to ruin his legacy at all, or will he overcome it?
CHOPRA: No, I think he`ll over -- I mean, look, I think Michael`s a deeply complex character, he was when he was alive, and he is in death and I think, you know, it would be wrong, also, just to celebrate the sort of rock star image of him. You know, his life was one of amazing triumph, but of also terrible tragedy. And I don`t think, you know, it needs to be either/or. I mean, sadly, you know, a lot of this tortured part of his life was a big part of it, and I`m sure that will be part of the memory, but there`s no forgetting what an incredibly historic transformative rock star he was. And look, that`s just me sort of analyzing it somewhat objectively, too. I, fortunately, you know, had the subjective experience of getting to know him and I remember him as a great friend. I mean, the reason I`m doing this interview and frankly, turned down a lot (ph), because my mother told me to. She said, somebody has to go on and talk about, you know, what an amazing person he was, forget all the rock star stuff. He was a good friend to me and that`s kind of how I remember him.
BEHAR: I think others have said that. I think Elizabeth Taylor felt that way, Brooke Shields felt that way, and many others. And I thank you for coming on and sharing your story with us. OK? Thanks very much, Gotham. And say hi to your dad.
CHOPRA: Thanks. I will.
BEHAR: OK, we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The ugly divorce rumors continue to swirl around Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore. Photos have surfaced of what appear to be Ashton surrounded by blondes in a hotel room and no, it`s not the Gabor sisters.
(LAUGHTER)
With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Rob Shuter, "Naughty but Nice" columnist for the "Huffington Post." The lovely Jane Pratt, founder and editor of xoJane.com, and Paul Scheer, comedian and star of FX`s "The League."
OK, Rob, this isn`t the first time that the marriage -- the rumors have been swirling, but this time they seem to be sticking. What`s up?
ROB SHUTER, HUFFINGTON POST: Yeah, what happened the first time is there were rumors that this couple were in trouble. Legal letters were sent out and immediately this was shut down. That has not happened this time and that`s made everybody really wonder, is this true?
PAUL SCHEER, COMEDIAN: Do you think it`s because he`s on "Two and a Half Men," Demi is like, I just don`t like this show, I have to get out of this.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Well, it could be that his career is on the increase. I don`t know if hers is.
SHUTER: Maybe, because what`s happened though is that this girl does have photographs of the night in a hotel room. We don`t know how many photographs she`s got, but she has now hired a lawyer to negotiate a big deal where I`m assuming she wants to get paid.
BEHAR: Which girl is that?
SHUTER: The girl, Sara, who he allegedly spent the night with.
BEHAR: is this the one in the hot tub, too?
SHUTER: Yes.
BEHAR: Oh, because he was in some kind of a hot tub thing.
SHUTER: There were three girls that went upstairs, allegedly, to his hotel room, he was staying in the penthouse in San Diego, three girls were invited upstairs for a party and of the three girls, one ended up, allegedly, spending the night, there.
BEHAR: I see.
JANE PRATT, XOJANE.COM: Well, OK, two things about this. OK, I have the exact same birthday as Demi Moore, not the same number of wrinkles.
(LAUGHTER)
Life is not fair, I guess. Right? But I`m all for the younger men thing. I`ve only ever gone with guys at least a decade younger than me, I think it`s the way to go.
BEHAR: Yeah, I agree with that. Right.
PRATT: But, I don`t think you expect to marry them, make a life -- you know, they have a sell by date, I think, right?
BEHAR: A shelf life.
PRATT: Shelf life. That`s what you say. That`s what you say. And then -- but then second, I also think that -- I don`t think that people culturally, we don`t want celebrity marriages to work, and especially an older woman and a younger man.
BEHAR: Why not?
PRATT: Well, I think we are taught -- OK, so this is the feminist me talking, right? But I think we are taught that youth and beauty equal success. So, if you see this older -- it`s not that old, but older woman ensnare this younger hot guy, people don`t want to see that work -- they want to see her fade off and they want to see him...
BEHAR: But if it`s an old guy with a young girl?
(CROSSTALK)
PRATT: That`s acceptable, then, right?.
BEHAR: That acceptable, Paul?
SCHEER: I mean, I guess it`s acceptable. The thing that`s unacceptable to me is, stop with the cell phone pictures. If you`re going to have a tryst, put the cameras away. I mean, haven`t we learned at this point? You`re cheating on your wife, no texting, you know, again, let`s do this the right way.
SHUTER: That`s what makes the story so complicated. In that suite there was a party going on, so there were many, many people upstairs, so this wasn`t a little secret sneakoff affair, this happened in front of a lot of people. So, there`s a lot of sources out there who can either confirm this or deny this, and at the moment they`re all saying it`s true.
BEHAR: OK, you know what? We have so much more pop culture and after this quick break, we will continue with this, so don`t go anywhere.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Fox News chief, Roger Ailes, admits he hired Sarah Palin because she`s hot, that and more when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my lovely panel. Now, Sarah Palin finally made the announcement that many people have been praying for. No, she`s not moving to Europe. But she`s not going to run for president. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORMER GOV. SARAH PALIN (R), ALASKA: After prayerful consideration and a lot of discussion with the family, I concluded that I believe I can be an effective voice and a real decisive role in helping get true public servants elected to office. You don`t need a title to make a difference in this country. I think that I`m proof of that. And we together united can surely help as a team get this country back on the right track.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK. Paul, as a comedian, are you disappointed?
SCHEER: I know, yes, we`re running out of material, but I`m actually very excited about some of the Republican candidates coming up.
BEHAR: Really? Like who?
SCHEER: I forget.
BEHAR: Perry?
SCHEER: What`s his name--
BEHAR: Huntsman?
SCHEER: No, the guy from Florida. Who am I forgetting? Herman Cain.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: Yes, he`s full of material.
BEHAR: On "The View" today we talked about this, and when we said Sarah was not running, a cheer erupted in the audience. What do you make of that besides the fact that we may have a very liberal audience over there?
SHUTER: I don`t know if you have a liberal audience, but the panel is pretty diverse.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: I think that people are done with Sarah. I think Sarah has not lived up to people`s expectations, and whatever credibility she did have for a while, I think she blew that, and I think now we know she`s in it for the money.
PRATT: Exactly. And the statement that she made about, I can be more effective -- those are the exact same words she used when she declined to run for gubernatorial -- you know--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- governor of Alaska, that`s right.
PRATT: When she stepped down or whatever.
BEHAR: That`s right.
PRATT: OK, she needs a bigger vocabulary.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: She doesn`t need a title because no one will elect her to give her a title. I mean, basically, she can`t go anywhere.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who is this going to help now? Romney, it will help Romney, she`s out. Who else, there`s Rick Perry.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She might help Rick Perry.
SHUTER: Michele Bachmann -- it will help her--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Michele Bachmann has like a 2 percent approval rating in the Republican Party right now. No, she won`t. But Perry.
SHUTER: Perry is probably the one that it will help the most, but he seems to be the Tea Party candidate that they`re supporting. I`m not really sure it`s going to help Mitt Romney, whose supporters seem to be a little bit more moderate.
BEHAR: OK. Now, in another Sarah Palin piece of news, Fox News chief Roger Ales told the AP that he hired her as a contributor, not because of her credentials, but because she was quote, "hot" and "got ratings."
That explains how that sex machine Mike Huckabee kept his job.
Now, Jane, are you surprised that he would admit something like that? Anybody, really?
PRATT: I`m actually really -- I`m pleased that he backed up what we already know, which is that Fox News is not credible at all. We knew that, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m surprised he admitted it, though.
SHUTER: I`m shocked. I can`t believe he said that. I don`t know what came over him for a minute. But he could finally pull back the curtain in "The Wizard of Oz"--
SCHEER: He`s going after the Wolf Blitzer approach. You know, it`s like you have to have somebody really sexy giving out the news--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You`re a feminist, Jane. Isn`t it kind of sexist--
PRATT: Of course it is.
BEHAR: -- to say something like that?
PRATT: He would never say that about a male commentator, ever, ever.
BEHAR: Bill O`Reilly is hot? And that`s why we hired Bill O`Reilly.
PRATT: I`m the last person to want to ever defend Sarah Palin, but in this case, you don`t say that about anyone. I mean, you just don`t say it.
BEHAR: And do you think that -- just to be on Sarah Palin`s page for a second, do you think she appreciated that?
SHUTER: No, she must be furious.
BEHAR: I mean, that really minimizes her intellect.
SHUTER: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Whatever there is of it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And her ability to convey her ideas to the American people.
PRATT: She`s (inaudible) to being hot, though.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: She was a model, right? She would like to go back to that.
(CROSSTALK)
PRATT: She pushes up the boots, you know, she does it.
BEHAR: Yes, she works it. So do you think that Fox has less credibility because of this or more credibility?
PRATT: I think that they`ve been more up front now about what they`re actually doing, right?
SCHEER: They just put a name on it, they`ve been doing it for years. You know, now they just called it out. But I guess there has to be a reason you would hire Sarah Palin as a news correspondent on a news channel. Oh, because she`s hot. Well, at least they have one reason.
BEHAR: Yes, he denied that he hired her for her conservative views. So why not hire a hot liberal, like moi?
All right, let`s do another story. Remember earlier this week on "Fox and Friends" when Hank Williams Jr. seemed to compare President Obama to Hitler? Remember this? OK, well, today the analogy cost him his gig. ESPN has removed his song from "Monday Night Football." It`s been the theme for 22 years. Jane, he already apologized for his comments. Is this fair?
PRATT: I don`t know about fair, and I`m not like a sports person, but I will say that he`s coming out now and he is claiming his First Amendment right. But I think he needs to go back and restudy the First Amendment, because there`s nothing in the First Amendment that says you can say whatever crap you want at work and not get fired for it.
BEHAR: That`s true.
PRATT: He is misusing that.
BEHAR: That`s true. You can say whatever you want, but the employer has the right to fire you if they want.
PRATT: Of course.
BEHAR: The sponsors can pull out, whatever.
PRATT: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: I think they`re going to replace him with Mel Gibson, so they will have no problems.
BEHAR: You`re a big football fan, I take it?
SCHEER: I like football, I love that song. It`s the best song of all time. Everybody knows the song. It`s like, are you ready for some football? He`s going in there with his big beard and his guitar. But yeah, I would think a guy that wrote that song would probably have those opinions.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: -- kind of a gap now for you guys, isn`t there?
SCHEER: We need a new person to come in. Maybe Justin Timberlake can come in and kind of--
BEHAR: You have something to say?
SHUTER: What`s really going to hurt him here is the amount of money that he made from that song is staggering. The sort of royalties he made every time that song was played was a fortune, so this is really going to hurt him financially.
BEHAR: You know, isn`t it interesting that when you use the word, the name of Hitler you get into trouble? What if you said Mussolini or Pol Pot or Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun? You never get into trouble. They killed just as many people. What if he compared him to Stalin? Nobody cares. The minute you say Hitler, you`re off the air.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I don`t understand that. OK, we have one more story we have time for. This is weird -- Bethenny Frankel`s estranged mom and strange mom I might add is throwing her daughter under the bus, saying that the girl is a narcissist, that her marriage won`t last and that she doesn`t spend enough time with her little baby girl. Is this a case of skinny girl versus bitchy mom?
I mean, these two are in--
SHUTER: Bethenny has been saying awful things about her mother for a good five years.
BEHAR: On the air.
SHUTER: On the air. Whenever she`s had a chance to say something terrible about her upbringing, Bethenny certainly has exploited that. So I think this is a little bit of karma here, that after trashing her mom for five, six years, the mom`s fighting back.
BEHAR: What do you say, Jane?
PRATT: I think -- does the mom just want the publicity?
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: I think she`s so angry--
BEHAR: She claims, the mother claims that she developed the skinny margarita thing.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: Oh, she was into agave?
SHUTER: Tequila?
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: The cancer causing skinny girl margarita, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: No, they`re saying it`s not organic.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They didn`t say anything about cancer.
SCHEER: All that it says I think this is -- I smell a great spin-off, put Bethenny and her mom together. That`s a reality show I would want to watch.
BEHAR: Would you think they would do it? These two would never do it . Bethenny makes so much money, she doesn`t need the old bag.
SCHEER: This is better than Ryan and (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean, airing the dirty laundry in public like that, how obscene.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHEER: How does someone who`s 10 years estranged from their daughter know that they don`t spend enough time with their own children?
BEHAR: That`s a good point. OK, thank you guys very much.
And be sure to watch Paul Scheer tonight in the season finale of "NTSF SD SUV" -- I`d like to buy a vowel -- and it`s on something called "Adult Swim." We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: According to "Newsweek," there`s a sharp rise in free artificial insemination as many men are taking the donation process into their own hands. Here to discuss this is Tony Dokoupil, staff writer for "Newsweek." Beth Gardner, the founder of the Free Sperm Registry. And prolific sperm donor Trent Arsenault. Hello, guys.
All right.
TONY DOKOUPIL, NEWSWEEK: Thanks for having us.
BEHAR: Of course. You did this whole report, Tony.
DOKOUPIL: I did.
BEHAR: OK, so let`s just cut to the chase. If I`m a person who can`t -- doesn`t have a man, and I want to have a baby, what do I do? What did you find out?
DOKOUPIL: You have got the traditional option, which is a sperm bank. And you go in, you flip through like a yearbook, essentially, except no pictures, just bios. And you make a choice.
BEHAR: No pictures?
DOKOUPIL: No pictures. You never meet the person. Your children never meet the person. You make a choice, doctor inseminates you, you get pregnant, way to go, congratulations. It`s expensive.
BEHAR: They`ve been checked out thoroughly? Vetted thoroughly?
DOKOUPIL: Right. The FDA has a series of tests that these sperm banks have to do. So you know, there are tests. But it`s pricy, the testing`s not perfect, and you never get to meet the donor. And your children generally don`t get to meet the donor either.
The alternative, which is what you`re talking about here, is the free sperm donor method, which is you go to a site like Beth Gardner`s site, you pick a donor, you meet with this person, you have coffee with them or you have lunch with them. It`s like a job interview, you know, it`s like a date. You look them in the eye--
BEHAR: Kind of like a date, yes.
DOKOUPIL: You can evaluate him.
BEHAR: Where did he come from?
DOKOUPIL: Where did Trent come from?
BEHAR: Where did the donor come from?
DOKOUPIL: Well, the donor came out of the woodwork. I mean, the donor is interested in -- you know, motivations vary. So many donors just want to help women conceive.
BEHAR: And so they don`t get any money for it?
DOKOUPIL: No, zero money.
BEHAR: No money.
DOKOUPIL: They may be reimbursed for travel expenses. So -- and they`re going to show that they`re clean, they`re going to show STD tests. And you know, women will have questionnaires that they want to -- they have various processes for vetting their donor. But it`s basically a gut reaction. It`s like dating, you pick the person.
BEHAR: So you go and you meet the person, and they -- so the good news is, no money is exchanged and you get to see the person. So you can decide if you like his looks also?
DOKOUPIL: There`s a reason why we tend to look at the people who we end up reproducing with. That`s how we`ve evolved to be pretty good at that. So I think women who are interested in this method like to save money, but they also like using their gut feeling.
BEHAR: That`s interesting, because I always thought that sperm banks -- the fact that you couldn`t see the person is a negative.
DOKOUPIL: Totally.
BEHAR: Yes. OK. Now, Beth, what led you to start searching for a free sperm donor yourself?
BETH GARDNER, HAS SOUGHT SPERM DONORS ONLINE: Sure. Well, when my wife and I were looking for options, we considered the sperm banks like most people do. That was our first thing. We also considered a family member, but we both want to carry, so that wouldn`t work, obviously. And we met a couple -- we met several other couples who had chosen this path. That`s how we first heard about it, some other people told us. And we couldn`t really find anything online about it. There wasn`t a site that had just information like how to do this, and -- what is it about?
So we just had to really do a lot of research ourselves. And what it came down to basically, we had some ethical issues with the anonymity of sperm banks. And for non-anonymous sperm, it was going to cost us around $700 to $1,500 per month. And while we could have afforded that, we felt that -- we felt strongly that that money was better put towards raising our children.
BEHAR: I see. So you didn`t want to spend the money, and you had a problem with the fact that you couldn`t see the guy, yes? Is that what I heard you say?
GARDNER: Right. Right. Not so much that we couldn`t see him, but we feel very strongly that it`s our children have a right to know their biological history if they want to. And we really wanted to be able to answer those questions for our children.
BEHAR: OK. OK, now, Trent. You are a sperm donor, you are -- what do you call yourself?
TRENT ARSENAULT, TRENTDONOR.ORG: Free sperm donor. A known donor.
BEHAR: And you`re 36 years old, I understand, and you`re a virgin? You`ve never actually had sex with another human being? True?
ARSENAULT: I describe it as donor sexual.
BEHAR: Donor sexual, that`s the word. OK. What is the -- first of all, how is it that you`ve never -- this is a personal question, you don`t have to answer it. How come you`ve never had sex with a woman or a man before?
ARSENAULT: Various reasons. I say a lot of it is for health reasons.
BEHAR: Health reasons? OK. You afraid of diseases or something like that?
ARSENAULT: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. So what`s your motivation to donate sperm for free? You could make $12,000 a year from sperm banks if you wanted to.
ARSENAULT: That`s what I don`t want to do, because I mean, who wants to grow up knowing their biological father`s motivation was $12,000 from a sperm bank. My motivation is more of a community service type motivation.
BEHAR: Do you get any kind of sexual satisfaction out of doing this at all? Or is it strictly altruistic on your part?
DOKOUPIL: Well, there is an orgasm involved. He can`t donate without it.
BEHAR: There is an orgasm involved, so it`s not -- it`s not all altruism.
DOKOUPIL: Not for that nano second, I guess.
BEHAR: For that nano second?
DOKOUPIL: Yes, not for that--
BEHAR: Really? That`s a pretty short time.
DOKOUPIL: Well, he`s practiced.
BEHAR: Yes, tell me -- tell me about some of the donors. I`ve read some of them. One guy wanted a girl to scream "make me pregnant."
DOKOUPIL: Yes, so let me speak up for Trent for a minute and then I`ll go into the general population of donors. I mean, Trent would make most sperm banks drool. He works for a great Fortune 500 tech company. He`s had other great job experiences. He went into the Naval Academy. He went to a prestigious private academy for high school. So you know, he has the qualifications for this kind of work. Other donors are educated, but then there`s this other subset that are kind of like cave men. They really like the idea of having a lot of children out there. They`re excited by the notion of spreading their seed. And that`s where the ego gratification plus the sexual satisfaction comes into it.
BEHAR: Do you think that`s weird?
DOKOUPIL: Do I personally think that`s weird?
BEHAR: Those guys?
DOKOUPIL: You know, it`s not totally alien to normal thinking. I mean, a man`s sexual equipment is like this thing they`ve had in a box for 20 years, and then 30 years, and then they finally get to take it out and see if it works. They just want to make it work.
BEHAR: OK, we`re going to continue this interesting discussion in just a minute, so don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guests, Beth Gardner, Trent Arsenault, and Tony Dokoupil.
All right, Beth, talk to me about your experience with meeting these donors. I understand that one of them was at Starbucks. Was that you or somebody else?
GARDNER: That was me. Our first donor lived two hours away, so we had to drive up there, and Mother Nature doesn`t always conveniently decide to come on the weekend. So there were a couple of times when it was in the middle of the week, and we had to drive two hours after work and meet our donor, and then drive back the same night so that we could be to work the next day. So we didn`t have time for something more comfortable.
BEHAR: That`s a little weird.
DOKOUPIL: It`s not that unusual, though. You have to coordinate an ovulation calendar, three people`s work schedules, logistics, so Starbucks is actually a fairly common location for this kind of thing.
BEHAR: So it`s a cup of latte and a cup of sperm.
(LAUGHTER)
DOKOUPIL: I am pretty sure in Beth`s case, the donor and Beth`s wife, they shared a cup of coffee while nature took its course.
BEHAR: I see. OK. According to the FDA, Trent, it`s illegal for you to masturbate. Do you know that? I mean, I`m sure you do. They have made it illegal for you to masturbate. Who exactly is monitoring that?
ARSENAULT: Well, there is regulations that were set up several years ago, and currently my status is that they issued a cease manufacturing (ph) order, and right now it`s pending a decision from the agency.
BEHAR: That sounds a little off the wall.
DOKOUPIL: They basically said -- they came to Trent`s house and they said, look, you`re not properly testing your sperm, you`re a one-man sperm bank, in essence, and what you`re doing is not safe. You`re a threat to public health. He`s appealing the decision on the grounds that what he`s doing is no different from sex, traditional sex. You know, it`s fresh sperm, whether you get it in a cup or through a more traditional method. It`s still fresh sperm.
BEHAR: Well, that`s a good point. I mean, Beth, what do you say to that? I mean, are you worried about health issues at all?
GARDNER: Sure, those are things -- those are risks that have to be mitigated. There are risks that have to be mitigated if you`re married to somebody and you`re having a child with your partner. How many heterosexual couples have the father genetically tested before they decide to have children? Not very many. So, in many ways, a private sperm donor is even more careful and more safe, because you`re doing the kind of screening on this person you don`t generally do with the people that you date or the person that you`re married to.
BEHAR: That is an interesting point. It`s just that when you are marrying somebody, you get to know them over a period of time. Supposedly there is a trust built. This is just, you know, slam, bang, and we`re in Starbucks.
DOKOUPIL: But you can`t compare it to marriage, you`ve got to compare it to a traditional sperm bank.
BEHAR: I`m comparing it to a one-night stand, really.
DOKOUPIL: OK, that`s --
BEHAR: Because I`m meeting you at the -- face to face, and then we just get it on later, except it`s in the bathroom.
OK, well, you know what, I understand that it`s done in other countries and it`s done successfully. So maybe--
DOKOUPIL: It`s a very big deal in other countries.
BEHAR: Maybe it`s the future. Thank you, everybody. And be sure to stick around for "Showbiz Tonight." They`ll have a look at how some celebrities are reacting to the death of Steve Jobs. Thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
