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Joy Behar Page
Jackson Family Friend Speaks; McCartney Marries Again; Interview With Wendy Williams
Aired October 10, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Joy speaks to Dr. Susan Etok, a close friend of Michael Jackson`s who turned down an offer of half a million dollars to take care of the king of pop during his London tour. She`ll tell Joy how she tried to alert Jackson`s staff about the star`s failing health.
Then Joy, will look at how Amanda Knox spent her first week of freedom and what lies ahead as Meredith Kercher`s family sues Knox.
Plus, the lively Wendy Williams is here to dish on some hot topics. That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: It`s pretty clear Michael Jackson had a drug problem, so didn`t anybody intervene? Susan Etok, a long time friend of Michael`s, tried to help. She`s with me now from London. Hello, Susan.
SUSAN ETOK, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FRIEND: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: Now, how did you know Michael?
ETOK: I met Michael back in 1998. I was an extra in a movie in the States and after shooting, I met up with some of the crew and they knew Michael and they knew that he was in Vegas and I just tagged along and got introduced to him.
BEHAR: It just became a friendship from there, that`s nice.
The last time you saw Michael was at his hotel in London in 2009. Tell me about that.
ETOK: Basically, I got a call a couple days beforehand from one of his security. And they asked me to come and meet Michael in his hotel. They picked me up from Paddington Station and they took me to the hotel. And I met up with Michael and we talked.
He wanted to know how I was. We talked a bit about his concerts. And then he made a request to me that kind of shocked me.
BEHAR: What was that?
ETOK: He asked -- well, basically, he was explaining to me that, you know, when he was coming for the concerts that he didn`t want to get in touch with a British doctor, he didn`t want the media to start making up stories about him. And he needed me to help him get him some medication throughout the duration of the concerts. Yes.
BEHAR: What did you do when he asked you that?
ETOK: Sorry?
BEHAR: What did you do?
ETOK: Well, basically -- my family are in the medical field. So I kind of approached my family and I told them what he`d asked for and they told me that these weren`t the type of drugs somebody should have and these are not routine drugs that you just take at home, so that was a no-no. So I refused.
BEHAR: Can you tell me what the drugs were? What were they? What kind of drugs?
ETOK: One of them -- the one that obviously stands out was Diprivan. The rest were anti-depressants, painkillers and obviously, that`s not something that I could ever have done knowing what they were. Never have provided him with any of that.
BEHAR: Now, you later confronted Michael in an e-mail and tried to help him. How did you do that?
ETOK: After he asked me, I told him that I`d get back to him and I did a bit of research and asked my family members what these were. And then when I started to realize that, I got back to him and said, "No, I can`t do this. I can`t get these for you." And I said to him, that if he was sick, he should go and see one of his doctors in the Sates and sort it out. Then from there, I had this suspicion that maybe something was wrong. He needed help.
BEHAR: Right.
ETOK: Maybe there was a dependency.
BEHAR: Right. But did you warn anybody about it? Maybe that you had some concerns -- did you tell anybody?
ETOK: I did. But that was only after I tried to confront him about it. Obviously, we had a bit of an argument and he didn`t appreciate me bringing up that subject with him. So I did try to talk to his security. I did try and talk to people around him. It was kind of brushed off.
And I don`t know whether they were trying to protect him from the media, but I tried as best I could and I couldn`t get through to anybody.
BEHAR: Was there any backlash?
ETOK: No one would take it seriously.
There was.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, go ahead.
ETOK: There was backlash. There were various people that worked for him and some of his inner circle threats and using fans to harass and that kind of thing, so that, you know, it wasn`t a particularly nice time for me.
In some respects, I can understand that Michael has had a real grilling over the years in the media and his fans do want to protect him. So I kind of understood why, they hear this and they get quite upset; but this was for real. There was a problem.
BEHAR: But did you ever give drugs to him -- to Michael? Did you --
ETOK: Sorry? Did I --
BEHAR: Did you ever give him drugs at all? Ever?
ETOK: Not knowingly. There was a time when I was in Egypt, actually, in about 2006. He asked me to send him some -- I think it was Demerol, that was something that you can just get over the counter in Egypt. I sent that to him.
He said it was for one of his drivers that wasn`t very well. I did that. No, I didn`t provide him with any drugs that he shouldn`t have had.
BEHAR: So you didn`t send the Demerol? You did not do it?
ETOK: No.
BEHAR: I mean Demerol for the driver that will put you to sleep. That`s really not a drug to give a driver. Ok.
Now, it sounds like it was very hard to say no to Michael. That sounds like -- everybody seems to have that sort of rap, as I`m watching the trial. Nobody could say no to the guy.
ETOK: Well, I think that those that cared about him could say no because they had his best interests at heart. But I think a lot of people didn`t say no because they had something to gain by giving him whatever he wanted. I think that was more of the case.
It wasn`t that he used any force or he was manipulative, it was none of that. I think it was just people`s selfish interests.
BEHAR: Do you think that the Jackson family knew of his dependency?
ETOK: Obviously, I believe that they did know. I`m not sure that they knew about the severity of Michael`s situation. I do know that they tried to stage an intervention at various points in Michael`s life. I can`t really say how much they did know but I know that -- and I really know that they tried. They tried to help Michael.
BEHAR: Well, was Michael in denial, along with a lot of people around him, was he in denial, do you think?
ETOK: It`s really hard for a me to tell because obviously, when this was happening after March, I didn`t see him again in person. So I don`t know how long this usage of Propofol had gone on for. In speaking with him, when I confronted him, it seemed that he was in some kind of denial.
BEHAR: Yes. What do you think needed to happen for him to be alive today? The poor guy is gone. You were there. What do you think should have happened for him to be here?
ETOK: For him to be here, I really think -- I really, you know, wished that his family were able to infiltrate the inner circle and get Michael out of there. I think if he had been back behind the gates in Encino, he`d been alive today. His family would have been able to help him if people hadn`t tried to keep him away. I think.
BEHAR: Yes, the isolation.
Now, you know, Conrad Murray is on trial for Michael`s death and Latoya Jackson told me that Murray was a fall guy. That he took the rap; that there were many other people contributing to the guy`s demise. What do you think about that?
ETOK: I absolutely agree with her.
BEHAR: You do?
ETOK: I just feel that -- I do. I do agree with her. Dr. Murray was the last man standing. Michael died in his hands. He was the one that gave the lethal dosage to Michael. But I believe this enabling, this giving prescription medication to Michael had gone on for so many years and there`s so many doctors that should be held accountable for Michael`s death.
And unfortunately I just think Dr. Murray will get four years in prison and that will be the end of that. Those others have effectively got away with it.
BEHAR: That`s true. Ok. Thank you, Susan, very much. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, Paul McCartney ties the knot for the third time and without a pre-nup. We`ll have all the latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Paul McCartney got married for the third time over the weekend, this time to New Jersey businesswoman Nancy Shevell. I`m so happy for you both. Paul, let me know if you received the salad shooter.
With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Kara Dioguardi, a songwriter and co-star of Broadway "Chicago", for limited engagement through October 30th, go see her; Frank DeCaro, host of Sirius XM Radio and author of "The Dead Celebrity Cookbook" -- I`m glad I`m not in that one; and Rachel Sklar editor-at-large from Mediaite.com.
Ok, I should put the new teeth and I`ll be fine.
Frank after the nightmare that was Heather Mills.
FRANK DECARO, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Yes.
BEHAR: Will the third time be a charm for Paul?
DECARO: I hope so.
BEHAR: Yes.
DECARO: I don`t understand why people keep doing it. He`s got lots of money.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: So does she Nancy has money.
DECARO: I guess but it just -- would he really be lonely if he doesn`t have a wife at this point? Does he just really believe in love?
BEHAR: Of course.
KARA DIOGUARDI, SONGWRITER: Of course he believes in love. I mean, Paul McCartney, look at all the love songs he wrote.
BEHAR: Silly love songs.
DIOGUARDI: Yes, well still -- they still stand up to the test of time.
DECARO: It`s very disgusting I ask you after that he`s been through.
RACHEL SKLAR, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, MEDIATE.COM: Maybe the point is he has learned. That`s right.
DECARO: Well, he got a rich one this time.
SKLAR: That was good.
DECARO: Yes.
BEHAR: Mills -- the last one, Heather, she got $48.6 million in one of the most expensive divorces ever. Plus, there was a lot of fighting. His children did not like her. You would think he would know by now. And then you know what, wait a second, there`s no pre-nup.
DECARO: I know.
BEHAR: What about that?
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: They both have money. They both have money.
BEHAR: Bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
DIOGUARDI: They both have money. It doesn`t matter. When you have - - when you both have money, what do you need a pre-nup for. She`s as rich -- she has her own money.
BEHAR: Well, I still think you need a pre-nup for various reasons. If your own lawyer will let two adults get married without a pre-nup --
SKLAR: They really love each other.
DIOGUARDI: It`s hard to say no to Mr. McCartney, I think.
BEHAR: Well, I don`t know. I mean, go ahead --
DECARO: When you have two nickels to rub together, you should get a pre-nup. That`s what I think, I just -- it`s crazy.
BEHAR: That`s right.
DECARO: Why would you not get a pre-nup? Doesn`t mean you love them less.
BEHAR: Because he has children, he has children. She doesn`t -- she has a child.
DIOGUARDI: Do you know how much she has and how much money he has?
BEHAR: A lot.
DIOGUARDI: Ok, so they both got a lot of money.
BEHAR: Yes, well.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: And maybe they both got a lot of love.
DIOGUARDI: Yes I -- you know what? Me too; we`re going to be positive.
BEHAR: You are just romantic at heart.
DIOGUARDI: How romantic.
SKLAR: I really just want a rich man to see this and think, I should marry her.
BEHAR: Aren`t you from Canada?
SKLAR: I am.
BEHAR: That will do it every time.
Now it`s interesting, he married Nancy Shevell in the same place he married his wife, Linda -- that`s interesting -- in 1969. Is he trying to recreate the good karma that he had with Linda, which he did have a lovely marriage with Linda Eastman.
DIOGUARDI: I think so.
BEHAR: You do.
DIOGUARDI: I think, and then he also got married on John Lennon`s birthday.
BEHAR: Yes John Lennon would have been 71 years old. It still hurts my feelings that he`s not here.
DIOGUARDI: It may have been years.
BEHAR: I often think of John Lennon that in these times, these horrifying times that we`re having in this country, he would have been such a voice.
DECARO: Yes, he would have had a great message for now definitely.
BEHAR: Yes, definitely.
Ok, now next up, more anti-gay rhetoric from GOP presidential candidate Rick Santorum who wants to reinstate "don`t ask, don`t tell". Watch what he told "Fox News Sunday" about gay soldiers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The problem is that sexual -- sexual activity with people who are -- you are in close quarters with who happen to be the same sex is different than -- than having a discussion and being open about your sexual activity where there is -- you`re not in that same situation.
They`re in close quarters, they live with people, they -- they obviously shower with people, the whole kinds of --- they -- all the things that -- that are involved in living in a barracks or living out in the field.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Doesn`t he have anything better to do than picture people having sex in a shower?
SKLAR: I think he does that often.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
SKLAR: It seems to be a recurring theme with him.
DIOGUARDI: I wish someone would just like duct tape his mouth shut. Because it`s so I mean, the things -- it`s like he`s inferring that gay soldiers get into the military to like cruise men. Like they can just --
(CROSSTALK)
DECARO: Yes like one big sex club.
DIOGUARDI: They got to go all the way the war. It`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: Yes right.
DECARO: I`m -- but he also -- he`s making the assumption that every gay guy is going to have the hots for every straight guy.
BEHAR: Right.
DECARO: And also -- which is baloney -- and also, gay guys are going to get straight guys to do anything they want to do.
BEHAR: Right.
DECARO: If you don`t want to do it, you`re not going to do it.
BEHAR: And that`s insulting to every soldier to think that one is a predator and the other one can`t resist a predator. That`s what he`s basically saying?
SKLAR: Yes the whole thing is insulting and out-dated.
BEHAR: He sounds -- he sounds -- it`s so out-dated. And hasn`t he ever been in a gym. I mean, you go into the gym and you shower with a lot of guys in these gyms.
DECARO: I know. No but it`s just -- I just -- I mean, the appropriate response if someone is looking at your junk and you don`t want them to, you say, eyes on your own paper?
BEHAR: Right.
DECARO: Ok, you just knock it off.
BEHAR: Is that happening to you a lot now?
DECARO: No I don`t. They squint is what they do, they look. But no, I just -- it`s ridiculous to assume that you know that it`s one big gang- bang waiting to happen. It`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: Maybe he`s trying to get votes though. He`s trying to appeal to his base. It`s insulting to the base, too, I think.
SKLAR: I think the base he`s trying to appeal to would not be insulted. But this sort of level of discourse from a presidential candidate should be obsolete by now. It`s not of course but --
BEHAR: Well, military leaders themselves are saying it`s no problem and yet he goes up against that. Reminds me of Rush Limbaugh who denies climate change, every scientist in the world says we`re in global warming and climate change but not Rush Limbaugh.
DIOGUARDI: I completely think he`s trying to get votes.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: I think, it`s an issue that there are people out there that do agree with him and he`s going out there and saying it.
BEHAR: Right, right.
DECARO: But the soldiers -- the soldiers are the ones who aren`t agreeing with him.
(CROSSTALK)
SKLAR: Right.
BEHAR: And the generals. And the generals.
SKLAR: I think we`re pretty safe that we`re not going to have a President Santorum and he`s not going to be the nominee. But still even the fact that he gets this airtime and he raises this.
DIOGUARDI: And how about just worrying about soldiers being the best soldiers they can be and not their sexuality.
BEHAR: Right.
Ok, let`s talk about something a little more frivolous. Reality star Bethenny Frankel who`s stop -- who`s shopping a talk show pilot to the networks has reportedly been told to hire a personality coach to make her less New Yorkie and nicer. You know, I resent the implication that New Yorkers aren`t nice. I am so pleasant it`s not even funny.
DIOGUARDI: Me, too.
DECARO: Don`t hurt me, Joy. Don`t hurt me, please, don`t hurt me.
BEHAR: No, you know she got rich and famous by being a straight- talking straight-shooting New Yorker. Why would they change her now?
DECARO: It`s clear, I mean, if that`s the person that we all know her as, which it is, yes, the idea is we would want to make her over into a kinder, gentler person. That`s not what you look to her for at all. And also and people have been to -- people adore you in all parts of the country. And you know, no one`s more New York than you are, Joy.
BEHAR: Thanks, that`s so sweet.
DIOGUARDI: And why would you want to take the New York out of you. That`s what makes you different. I`m totally insulted by that.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: And I think that that`s what people liked about her, she was frank, she was feisty, she kind of told it like it is.
BEHAR: Right.
DIOGUARDI: And now she`s going to become more demure and I think they`re trying to make her sweeter. And people will see through it and what they expect from her is for her to be New York.
SKLAR: What sells is authenticity.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
DECARO: Oh yes.
SKLAR: And they should live with that.
BEHAR: Right. And also, you know, I think people do like New York ever since the Seinfeld`s show and all this "Law and Order". People know about New Yorkers and after 9/11 everybody loved New Yorkers.
I want to have much more pop culture on the way so sit tight. We have more. We have two more topics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up, how did Amanda Knox spend her first week of freedom? Joy has the inside scoop.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my lovely panel. Remember way back when Republican Senator Scott Brown posed nude for "Cosmo" to pay for law school. Well, his Democratic rival, Elizabeth Warren, recently said she didn`t have to take her clothes off to pay for college. This is how Scott Brown responded on a Boston radio station. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you officially responded to Elizabeth Warren`s comment about how she didn`t take her clothes off?
SENATOR SCOTT BROWN (R), MASSACHUSETTS: Thank God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what I said. I said, look can you blame a good-looking guy for, you know --
BROWN: Listen, bottom line is, I didn`t go to Harvard. I went to the school of hard knocks. I did whatever I had to do to pay for school.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BEHAR: I will take down his centerfold in my garage. Who`s wrong here, Rachel?
SKLAR: Scott Brown is wrong both just for the general sexist sentiment but also politically, terrible judgment. Like he`s not going to win this one. People like Elizabeth Warren, and maybe, you know, whatever sort of sympathy and understanding and affection they may have had for his youthful vigor in making that decision -- I don`t know why I said vigor --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s a good word.
SKLAR: I don`t remember. But, you know, he comes off as a jerk.
BEHAR: Well, she threw the first barb out.
SKLAR: But he went low blow.
DIOGUARDI: Are we in high school?
DECARO: Yes, we are in high school?
(CROSSTALK)
DIOGUARDI: He could have taken the high road and just left it on her and she would have looked bad. But no, he had to do the dig. And you know, the thing is we talk about kids and bullying and showing, you know, the youth what we should do. And here they are doing it in a public forum.
BEHAR: It was tit-for-tat, right, Frank?
DECARO: Yes.
BEHAR: You laughed at "Thank God".
DECARO: He didn`t say beast, though. I mean that`s good, if you leave that word out. All he said was "thank God". The more I look at it, I think she sort of started it. And you kind of -- if you`re going to play on that --
SKLAR: Sort of legitimate thing to call it.
DECARO: Was she saying it in a classist kind of way. Like I did in - -
BEHAR: No. She was making a joke about that he posed nude and she didn`t. That`s all.
Decaro: I think he shouldn`t apologize for posing naked.
SKLAR: He used that very much to his advantage during the campaign. It was part of the mythology of Scott Brown. It`s like the whole sexy Scott Brown thing.
BEHAR: Nancy Pelosi blasted him. She said he was clueless. Should he apologize?
SKLAR: Yes.
DIOGUARDI: I think so, yes.
BEHAR: You do.
DIOGUARDI: Yes.
SKLAR: Ditto. Smart move all around.
BEHAR: I`m not sure about this. You know, she says something, he says something -- but he went checkmate.
DIOGUARDI: He went further.
BEHAR: Ok. Finally, let`s do this. "Bones" star, David Boreanaz claims cheating on his wife last year with Rachel Uchitel -- remember her - - actually helped his marriage. It didn`t seem to help Tiger Woods` marriage. Can a marriage ever truly be saved by adultery, Kara?
DIOGUARDI: Look, I don`t want to even run that one by my husband. What? What are you talking about?
BEHAR: What do you guys think? I don`t know.
DECARO: Lots of jewelry can make up for any number of indiscretions.
BEHAR: Remember Kobe Bryant?
DECARO: I thought that was fair.
BEHAR: That was a big play?
DECARO: I think it`s good if you pick out a beautiful car or something that you want or a piece of jewelry.
SKLAR: I think she probably trust matters a little bit more. However, if you`re able to re-establish it following the indiscretion and both parties make the decision to really work hard, then presumably you can get past it.
BEHAR: Oh, how young you are.
DIOGUARDI: I think it`s the way he said it. The way he said it, too, it`s like now we`re closer together because of it.
DECARO: If a woman came back and said I never realized you were so prodigiously endowed until I cheated on you, he would love her. It would be like, you`re terrific, thank you, let`s get back together.
BEHAR: I don`t know, unless you get Alzheimer`s after the event, you always remember. Thank you guys very much. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: While Amanda Knox tasted her first weekend of freedom, there are disturbing new claims that Knox was sexually harassed in prison. With me now on the latest is Sunny Hostin, legal contributor for "In Session" on TruTV and a former federal prosecutor.
Sunny, what`s this I read about Knox being sexually harassed while in prison? Is that true or is this for a book deal?
SUNNY HOSTIN, IN SESSION: It appears to be true. I mean, her father is discussing it, and she claims that she was sexually harassed by a prison official, sort of a higher-up, that he would go into her cell and take her into his office late at night and say very inappropriate things to her. There are also reports she was sexually harassed by female inmates, she was sexually harassed by a prison guard. So my understanding is this is an experience that she said happened over and over again during her four years incarcerated.
I`m not surprised by this, Joy, because let`s face it, the entire first trial was about her promiscuity. She was painted out to be Foxy Knoxy. So apparently that theme continued while she was in prison. And remember, she was in a cell for 22 hours a day, and so she certainly was a sitting duck for anyone that would want to sexually harass her.
BEHAR: Well, what is she going to do now? Do you know?
HOSTIN: Well, her father says that she is going to, in perhaps a few years or maybe shorter, sort of devote her life to helping those that were wrongfully convicted. And so there is no question about it that this has changed the course of her life and she wants to do something to help others.
BEHAR: Well, once you make a statement like that, people will be watching to see if you do it. Remember when O.J. Simpson said he was going to spend his time looking for the real killer?
HOSTIN: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. We`ll be watching, Amanda. Now, the victim`s family is suing Amanda Knox for millions. Tell me about that.
HOSTIN: Well, that`s my understanding. I haven`t seen the lawsuit. But there are some reports out there, Joy, saying she -- the family is going to sue for up to $12 million. And there`s a different standard in a civil suit, it`s much lower than in a criminal suit. But we`ll see. I mean, they`re still reeling from this verdict. Meredith Kercher`s brother talked to many reporters and said that they`re really just trying to get their brains wrapped around this acquittal. They feel like they`re back to square one. So will the lawsuit actually be filed? I haven`t seen it, I don`t know. But certainly, Meredith`s family is just reeling from this acquittal.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s jump over to Casey Anthony for a second. She was deposed in the Zenaida Gonzalez civil suit Saturday. Tell me what happened there?
HOSTIN: Well, she didn`t really say much. You know, a deposition is supposed to be Q&A. She`s supposed to be asked a lot of questions and she`s supposed to give a lot of answers. But through her attorney, she pled the Fifth, Joy, over and over and over again. So there wasn`t a lot of answer giving over the weekend, just a lot of I plead the Fifth, I plead the Fifth, I plead the Fifth.
BEHAR: So she didn`t answer any questions?
HOSTIN: Well, she answered about two questions. My understanding is that, one, she said she was aware of the civil suit against her, and two, she said that she hasn`t spoken to her parents since October 2008. I got to tell you, I was surprised. Are you surprised by that? I was shocked that she hasn`t spoken to at least her mom. It`s been three years. That was really, really a shocker for many people.
BEHAR: You know what, Sunny, there was no love lost between that trio for quite a while.
HOSTIN: That`s true. That`s true. There`s something amiss in that family. I mean, I guess when she writes her book, we`ll find out.
BEHAR: What about the disguise? Who did she go as? Amanda Knox?
HOSTIN: She went as herself during the trial, apparently. She had a Phillies hat on, she had really, really big sunglasses, and what appeared to be a wig. Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez`s attorneys say that they were really taken aback by it, and apparently she seemed very annoyed at having to have to be there.
BEHAR: Well, Jose Baez, he told TMZ reportedly that Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox are just a pair of all-American girls. What do you think about that?
HOSTIN: You know, I know Jose Baez, I`ve been to lunch with him. I happen to like him, so I know I`m going to get all the hate mail now, but I think he is likable and he certainly is a true believer in Casey Anthony. And he believes but for her all-American looks, her good looks, if she were Latino or African-American, we wouldn`t have known her name. And so that`s been his opinion for quite some time, so I`m not surprised that he said that.
BEHAR: I see, that`s what he meant. OK, thanks very much, Sunny, for the update.
HOSTIN: All right, thank you.
BEHAR: All right. Well, thank God Wendy Williams is a talk show host, because she`d be a terrible politician. She has this awful habit of saying what`s on her mind and telling the truth. Joining me, my fellow talk show host, Wendy Williams. Hello, Wendy.
WENDY WILLIAMS, TALK SHOW HOST: Hello, Joy.
BEHAR: So, what -- she was -- Sunny was mentioning, and Angela Peyser (ph) today in the New York Post said that they got off, the two of them, Casey and Amanda, because they are pretty. If they were ugly girls, they would be in jail. That`s basically what the sentiment is? What do you think of that?
WILLIAMS: Perhaps. People, pretty people do seem to get away with a lot. Murder? I don`t know. But perhaps. I mean, I don`t think of either of them as being particularly beautiful, but I guess nobody would be if you spent that much time in jail and trying to fight for your life on trial. However, I was recently asked on who I think should play Amanda Knox in the movie.
BEHAR: Who do you think?
WILLIAMS: Christine Stewart from "Twilight." She`s not a beauty. She`s just a girl with a great career. I`m not saying she`s not attractive. I`m just saying--
BEHAR: She`ll be happy to hear that, I know.
WILLIAMS: Well--
BEHAR: Christine, you`re no beauty.
WILLIAMS: Well, she`ll make a good Amanda Knox.
BEHAR: What about Casey, who should play Casey?
WILLIAMS: I don`t know. I`ll tell you what, Amanda Knox the reality show, as she gets her life back together.
BEHAR: Is that what you would do with her if you were her manager? Put her in a reality show?
WILLIAMS: Wouldn`t you want to -- don`t you want to see more, how she acclimates back into society?
BEHAR: I do. I`m interested in her now.
So let`s talk about the Conrad Murray trial for a second, have you been watching it?
WILLIAMS: In and out.
BEHAR: You`re in and out of it.
WILLIAMS: It`s very sad.
BEHAR: For who?
WILLIAMS: It`s very sad for Michael`s kids. You know, I think those kids are now exposed to everything. It`s kind of interesting seeing them out. Did you see them, they were at the concert in --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: There was some controversy about them, whether they should go or not. What do you think about that? I don`t see why not?
WILLIAMS: I mean, you know, why hold them back at this particular point? Paris seems to be well-adjusted so far, the daughter, gorgeous, tall, well-adjusted. The other son seems to be well-adjusted. I`m a little nervous for the smallest one, though, Blanket. He never smiles, never looks like he`s present in the moment.
BEHAR: Well, they`re not going to get off scot-free, these kids, emotionally. They need therapy to get through whatever it is they`ve been through, don`t you think? All right now, I know you are -- by the way, the family is divided about the concert`s timing. That`s what the controversy is about, whatever.
I know you were on "Dancing With the Stars."
WILLIAMS: Yep.
BEHAR: They threw you off, what, after two sessions?
WILLIAMS: After two sessions. And I danced better than a lot of people that you see on "Dancing With the Stars."
BEHAR: Really? Like who? Name names.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I dance better than Nancy Grace. And I like Nancy Grace, but Nancy Grace is not a good dancer.
BEHAR: You don`t think so?
WILLIAMS: No.
BEHAR: I think she`s -- not because she`s on this network.
WILLIAMS: I was good, too.
BEHAR: I like to watch her. She bounces and she`s got rhythm.
WILLIAMS: Here it is. I -- people expected me to have more for a black girl. And I know that`s what it is. Nobody wants to talk about the dark horse in the room, but it`s because I`m black, and because I`m black and I`m sassy, so everybody is expecting me to just do it as if, you know, all black people are born with this ability to dance. Which -- if I could dance the way I dance in the club, Joy, then you know, I would have been a contender. But to do ballroom dancing with a man who`s -- you know -- it`s not -- I mean, Tony`s a great guy, but Tony did not have the wherewithal to lead me and catch me. Do you -- would you trust anybody but Steve to dip you and catch you?
BEHAR: Only Steve can dip me.
WILLIAMS: This is what I`m saying. So I had -- and this is not Tony`s fault. This is me being paranoid, like I don`t want to flip over your back, you`re not going to slide me across the floor, I`m not going to do this, I`m not going to do that, because you`re not here to, like, catch me. Anyway--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s tough. Nancy did the passa doble, didn`t she, I believe?
WILLIAMS: I don`t know.
BEHAR: I don`t know, but anyway. What about Chaz Bono?
WILLIAMS: I like Chaz. Chaz is not much of a dancer, but you have to understand the inner workings of reality shows like "Dancing With the Stars," you know, what Chaz has to offer is the possibility that Cher will go on not once but many times. And Chaz won`t win "Dancing with the Stars," but certainly Chaz is a fan favorite, which has nothing to do with how you dance. Chaz is also coming along with a superstar mom, of which my mom is just Shirley from New Jersey. And so that means absolutely nothing.
But I like Chaz. It`s interesting to see him dance.
BEHAR: I don`t think he`s a good dancer.
WILLIAMS: No. He`s a horrible dancer.
BEHAR: Not a good--
WILLIAMS: Terrible. I`m a better dancer than Chaz.
BEHAR: Yeah. OK, get comfortable because I`m just getting started with Wendy Williams. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with tell it like it is talk show host, Wendy Williams. And now let`s get to some more hot topics because that`s your thing.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, Paul McCartney, he just got married to a lovely person, Nancy Shevell, who happens to be a second cousin to Barbara Walters. And it really looks like this one is going to stick. I think the family likes her. Because the last one, they did not like the Heather.
WILLIAMS: But it was interesting, that one leg.
BEHAR: Why?
WILLIAMS: That was -- it added an interesting twist.
BEHAR: That she had one leg?
WILLIAMS: Yes. And she did "Dancing with the Stars."
BEHAR: Well, what kind of interesting twist does it add? To the marriage?
WILLIAMS: It made you pay attention -- no, to her as a pop culture figure at that particular time, and then you know, made you pay attention to her a little bit more and a little bit more, and then finally they got divorced.
BEHAR: She danced also.
WILLIAMS: On "Dancing with the Stars."
BEHAR: Was she a good dancer with one leg?
WILLIAMS: Better than me.
BEHAR: See?
WILLIAMS: This is what I`m saying. A fan favorite because you know what you wanted to see.
BEHAR: Well, so -- don`t be bitter.
WILLIAMS: I`m not. I`m just saying!
BEHAR: They just kicked off a girl who I thought was a good dancer. I don`t know, who, I can`t remember her name--
WILLIAMS: The lady from "The Hills?"
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: She was too pretty.
BEHAR: Too pretty for what?
WILLIAMS: Too pretty.
BEHAR: They`re either too pretty or not pretty enough. We never talk about men this way, it`s only women.
WILLIAMS: Only.
BEHAR: But Kim Kardashian and Sherri Shepherd both got married on television. A big to-do about it. Do you think that that is something that people say, oh, well, it`s a private matter, you should do it privately? I`m not judging, I think it`s fine.
WILLIAMS: I think it`s the kiss of death for reality TV. I mean, as a fan, I love -- look, you know, I love to watch the weddings. I`m not even a wedding person. We got married at the justice of peace. I don`t even go for weddings. My mother and father weren`t even at our wedding and we`ve been married for 13 years. I don`t go for them.
BEHAR: I got married just recently, and my mother and father weren`t there either. They`re dead, that`s why.
WILLIAMS: But you know what? You did it casually, Joy, after having a life of love with Steve.
BEHAR: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: You did it casually, and I think that you and I might be more in line with each other when it comes to weddings. And it`s not to say that, you know, I`m judging women who want to get that big stupid white dress, that poofy dopey cake, but it`s just not for me. However, I do like to see that on TV. Tea and Tamara (ph), they get married on TV. I saw Sheri get married.
BEHAR: And "Bridezilla" is such a fascinating--
WILLIAMS: It`s my favorite show! Are you kidding me, on Sunday night.
BEHAR: Who is the worst bridezilla you`ve ever seen?
WILLIAMS: The girl with the black hair from -- the white girl with the black hair and the blue eyes from Staten Island. I don`t know her name, but her hair was everything, just thick and gorgeous and she had the attitude. I don`t know women like that in real life, because I`m older and none of my friends are --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Either they`re already married or they`re spinsters.
BEHAR: Spinsters.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BEHAR: What about -- I think spinster is kind of a throwback.
WILLIAMS: Isn`t it?
BEHAR: Nobody is a spinster anymore. They just choose not to get married because they just want to slut around.
WILLIAMS: That`s what they say, until you get them alone with the pinot grosio (ph), and then they talk to you and they tell you. But you know what, two weeks ago, listen -- marriage is not for everybody. I was wondering why Paul McCartney felt as though he had to get married to the lovely Mrs. Shevell.
BEHAR: Nancy Shevell.
WILLIAMS: Nancy Shevell. However--
BEHAR: Why did he feel that way? I always thought that about Johnny Carson. He had so much money. They took him for all he was worth, just like Heather. She took a lot of money from Paul, and yet they want to get married again. Why is that?
WILLIAMS: I don`t know. But you know, what I do love about his love with her is that they`re age appropriate.
BEHAR: Well, he`s 19 or so years older than her.
WILLIAMS: Well, she`s still a grown, fully formed woman.
BEHAR: She`s over 50.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: Right. But you know, she has a lot of money, too.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: so they don`t have a prenup. What about that?
WILLIAMS: Fabulous.
BEHAR: Who gets married without a prenup today? Everybody has a prenup.
WILLIAMS: Well, everybody does, I guess. But, you know, you know, she has her money, he has his money.
BEHAR: They don`t have to worry.
WILLIAMS: The glow of love is a powerful thing.
BEHAR: OK. Now, Bethenny Frankel, one of the housewives --
WILLIAMS: Of New York. But, no, no. She`s not there anymore. She and Jason Hoppy (ph) and Bren Hoppy (ph), the baby, they live in Manhattan. They`ve got Bethenny ever after. I`m a fan.
BEHAR: She shot a pilot, and now the network is trying to change her image. They are saying that she`s too bawdy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And so is that possible to do?
WILLIAMS: I don`t think for girls like me and you. See, we don`t see that.
BEHAR: It`s too late for us.
WILLIAMS: No, I just think, you know what I think it is? We`re northeast girls.
BEHAR: So is she?
WILLIAMS: Well, I was reading that in the newspaper, too. She did a pilot for a talk show and they were saying that like the Midwest might not understand the whole Bethenny thing, you know, in your face. Go figure. I wish her well. She`s number 3 on the "Forbes" list.
BEHAR: You know, that whole business of the Midwest not liking a New York girl is a bunch of baloney. I`m from New York, and I`ve been on the air for 15 years. I`ve done just fine, thank you, and so have you, so has my friend, Susy Essman (ph). She does great. A lot of people are doing just fine. I mean, it really sort of says something negative about the Midwest that I don`t think is called for.
One of the best standup sets I ever had was in Lima, Ohio, the Midwest, the breadbasket. So you know what I mean?
WILLIAMS: I went on a tour this past summer. We covered -- in 30 days we went to 17 cities -- me and my heels and my wigs and my Jerseyness. And I had the best time. And I was at malls. I judged pulled pork barbecues. I didn`t alter myself and I don`t expect people to alter themselves.
BEHAR: Because you`re real, you`re for real.
WILLIAMS: And I just think people are people and -- you know --
BEHAR: Right.
Now, Ms. Rosie O`Donnell has a new show on the Oprah Winfrey network, which premiered tonight.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: I haven`t seen it, I am going to -- I TiVo`d it. How do you think she`s going to be?
WILLIAMS: It`s supposed to be like a variety show type thing. I thought Rosie was good when she was on TV. I used to like when she would tell stories of watching plays with her family and eating lemon drops. And shooting -- I don`t know, I don`t know how Rosie is going to come back. Is she going to be happy-go-lucky Rosie? Is she going to be a little bit in- between? Or are there going to be games?
BEHAR: I think there`s quiz shows and all sorts of things within the show, variety, quiz, talk, a lot of things in the show.
WILLIAMS: I like Rosie. I never met her before. I never met her, I feel like I know her. You know, she`s like one of those friends in my head. We`re from the same age and same era, and a lot of --
BEHAR: She has a lot to her. I mean, she wants to be the queen of nice again maybe, but she also is very political, she has got strong opinions about what`s going on in the country, so I don`t know that she can put those two together.
WILLIAMS: Well, there`s nothing wrong with Rosie being reinvented.
BEHAR: OK. I wish her all the best.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, let`s talk about your show. But we`ll do that when we come back in just a minute.
WILLIAMS: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with Wendy Williams. How does that raise money for cancer exactly?
WILLIAMS: Well, what they do is the gentlemen have all -- have women in their lives who`ve been affected by breast cancer or they passed away because of breast cancer. And so a couple of gals from North Carolina came up with that pole idea. And we saw it on the Internet.
The guys raise money with the people that they know. You know, do you want to see me dance? And then they send the money in to the breast cancer awareness.
But what I`m doing later on this month, Joy, on October 20th, I`m going to be out at the Tanger outlet in Deer Park out on Long Island. And if you spend $25 or more at Tanger outlet, you`ll get a free pashmina. Here`s yours.
BEHAR: Thank you.
WILLIAMS: It`s raising money and awareness again for breast cancer awareness. You can never do enough. It shouldn`t just be one months, but such is life. So that`s going to be fun. I`m going to be out there as well.
BEHAR: Tanger outlet in Deer Park?
WILLIAMS: Deer Park, Long Island, October 20th. Give me a moment to get out there through the traffic and everything. We`ll probably arrive some time in the early evening.
BEHAR: Very good. So in the time we have left, I do want to ask you about your show, because I think it`s a terrific show. I was just on it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you.
BEHAR: And somebody told me -- I don`t watch it every day, because it`s conflicting with my show -- but a lot of crying goes on over there. Natalie Cole, Dolly Parton, Whoopi, Aretha, what`s up? Do you need a mood elevator? What`s up with that?
WILLIAMS: Here`s the thing. All right, so we`re in the third season on the show, and I feel almost embarrassingly comfortable in front of my audience. And it`s not something really that I had to grow -- I just feel comfortable in front of people.
BEHAR: You look comfortable.
WILLIAMS: And the other day, I was crying horribly. I think that was the day. It was the first day of my period. Well, you know, I didn`t say that, but I do this on the aftershow. You know, when I finish the show, I go upstairs and I take off my makeup and I sit in my office and I tell you about what I thought of the show and why I acted this way or whatever. It was the first day of my period. They have just gotten more brutal as I`ve gotten older. I just can`t wait to do away with them. I`m so not scared of menopause.
But I don`t mind crying. I don`t mind tilting a wig. I don`t mind letting my comfortable freak flag fly, so to speak. We`re on our third season. You know, our guests come and they seem to feel comfortable. We`ve had--
BEHAR: Did Charlie Sheen cry when he was on?
WILLIAMS: No, he didn`t cry, but he let his freak flag fly, as usual. Simon Cowell will be on this week. I`ll talk to Jane Lynch. Reverend Al is coming on tomorrow. We play games. We have fun. It`s -- the show is a lot of fun.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you so much for stopping by, Wendy. Always entertaining to have you.
WILLIAMS: Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: Check your local listings to see when the Wendy Williams Show airs on weekdays.
"Showbiz Tonight" is up next and it has the latest on Amanda Knox`s new life back here in the U.S. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
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