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Where is Baby Lisa; Lions, Tigers, Bears Set Loose; Interview With Jack Hanna; Lindsay Lohan Back in Court

Aired October 19, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up in THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, cops in the Baby Lisa case got a warrant to search her parents` house. Is this standard protocol or are they acting on new information?

And residents of Ohio are on lockdown after dozens of dangerous wild animals including lions, tigers and cheetahs break out. Cops say the owner committed suicide and left all the cages open. We`ll have the latest on this bizarre story.

Plus is Lindsay Lohan be going back to jail? We`ll have the latest on today`s court appearance.

That and more starting right now.

E.D. HILL, HLN GUEST HOST: Good evening, everyone. I`m E.D. Hill sitting in for Joy.

As the search for Baby Lisa Irwin continues, police got a search warrant and spent the day combing through the house of Lisa`s parents. So what did the investigators hope to find?

Here to discuss the latest in this case: Marcia Clark, author of "Guilt by Association" and former O.J. Simpson prosecutor; also Steve Helling from "People" magazine, "People`s" new issue has a story on Baby Lisa including an interview with the parent; and CNN`s Jim Spellman joins us again from Missouri doing a great job keeping track of all the twists and turns in this case.

Jim, let me start with you. The police get a search warrant for the house. Do you know if they took anything from the house, found anything of interest or even what they were looking for?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN ALL-PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Well, investigators are giving us a firm "no comment" on anything they may have gotten out of the house. This began last night after sundown. They got the search warrant and the first thing they did was send out police cruisers to keep the family out of the house. That was part of the search warrant.

All day today they have been in there with CSI crews in the white moon suits. They`ve been taking ladders in and out of the house. They`ve been digging with shovels and rakes behind the shed in the back of the house; lots of activity here today, E.D. Still unclear on what, if anything, they`ve gotten from their search.

HILL: Well, I had heard the rumor -- and I don`t know if it`s true or not -- that there were bomb units there. Do you know if that`s accurate?

SPELLMAN: Absolutely. The bomb unit is still here. They told us even before that unit arrived that it was not because they found any kind of explosives but that there was some sort of tools that investigators can use that as part of that bomb disposal unit to do their investigation.

We all got a shock here in the middle of the day when we heard a series of small explosions. It was just tree-trimming crew that hit a transformer box; there`s linemen out here repairing. Everybody here are already on edge. Believe me, when those series of explosions rang out, everybody freaked out a little bit but unrelated to the investigation.

HILL: And what are the rules now? You said that you`ve got all these folks going into the house in search for evidence obviously. Are the parents allowed back in? Other family members?

SPELLMAN: The investigation is still going on. It`s unclear when or if they will clear this property and have the family come back in. They`ve obviously been doing intense work. I mean, at the very least, at least a dozen investigators in the house all day in these white suits. We just don`t know when they`re going to wrap up here and when or if they`ll let anybody in.

I mean they`ve already searched this house several times with the consent of the family but not this kind of intense search with the CSI unit and this kind of resources. That`s the first time we`ve seen that here at this house.

HILL: All right, Jim. Thank you.

Marcia, I want to ask you. Don`t you have to have some kind of new information to go back in to get a warrant to search a house that you`ve already searched?

MARCIA CLARK, AUTHOR, "GUILT BY ASSOCIATION": No, you really don`t. All you need for a search warrant is probable cause to believe there`s evidence that would tend to establish that a crime was committed and who committed that crime.

Since the baby was taken from the house, the house was a crime scene. All you have to do is really tell the judge that, this is where the baby was taken. And even if the mother is not the one who committed the crime or the father, whoever came into the house may have left trace evidence of some kind, fingerprints of some kind. There`s a lot to look for there.

HILL: You know, perhaps I watch too much TV. But it seems to me that an argument for whoever was eventually found to have taken this child would be anybody could have gone in there between the time the baby disappeared and now when they sealed it off and they`ve gone in with all these crews. Why wouldn`t they do this right off the bat?

CLARK: Right. Yes, correct. And that is a problem, of course. They`re going to have to rule all the people who have been in and out of that house between the time of the baby`s disappearance and now. Hopefully --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: And if you`re the parents -- if you`re the parents and you`ve done something to this child, you could have spent the last week and a half getting rid of all the evidence. So it sort of seems like you`re closing the door a little too late.

CLARK: You might be. I mean exactly. It`s too bad that they didn`t have the search warrant or do a more thorough search earlier. But it`s better to do it now than not to do it at all.

HILL: That`s right.

CLARK: It`s one of these things. You know. You hope for the best.

And you`re right. The ideal situation would have been to do a thorough search on the very night the baby disappeared but barring that and what they`ve got now, at least they`re going in now. There may be evidence and very frequently is evidence that people don`t see, are not aware of, having shed, having left in various places.

It`s much -- we have tools and methods of detection now that are so profoundly sensitive that, you know, it`s very, very difficult for a criminal these days to cover up every single bit of his presence at a crime scene. So even if somebody made the effort to clean up, even with bleach, you still find stuff. So it`s certainly worth the effort, no question.

HILL: Now, Steve, of course, the parents are the people that everybody is looking at right now. And "People" magazine got the chance to interview them. What do you make of the story that one was either asleep or passed out and the other was at work and the baby just vanished?

STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE: Well, you know, obviously that`s what they`re saying at this point. You know, there is -- there were a lot of discrepancies in the things that they told police and their story has changed a little bit. But we can`t forget that they`ve gone through this horrible experience and we can`t rush to judgment too quickly.

A few years ago everybody thought when Jessica Lunsford disappeared in Florida that her family had something to do with it. No, it was a psychopath from across the street. So we have to wait to see what else comes out, what other information comes out before we make any real conclusions.

HILL: That`s right. But as I recall, in that case, it was the psychopath across the street whose family covered everything up for him including the presence of that girl and the fact that he was still there when police were out looking for him. So family was involved which again makes letting the family and everybody else, you know, in that house for so long seem kind of strange.

You`ve been on the crime beat a lot. What does your gut tell you?

HELLING: My gut tells me that there`s a lot more to the family`s story than meets the eye. I mean yes, we know that she drank at least five glasses of wine. She herself says that she was drunk. So it makes me wonder if she was really drunk, was she able to hide -- if something happened to the baby? Hide the baby? There would need to be somebody else to help her out if she was as falling down drunk as she seems to say that she was.

HILL: Well, that`s probably one of the first things. You know Marcia, when she claimed I got this box of wine and I drank -- I may have gotten drunk. I may have -- or I did get drunk, I may have passed out, blacked out. My first thought was how much wine was left in the box? That will help you figure out what happened.

CLARK: Right.

HILL: But I`m guessing that that is one of those things that have vanished in the meantime.

CLARK: Unfortunately. I thought the same thing. Funny you should mention it. What I was thinking was did somebody draw her blood to see exactly how out of it she was? How drunk was she? She also apparently was on an anti-anxiety medication. When you combine the two, you can wind up really blacked out. You can certainly wind up losing memory.

But it also means if you`re that drunk, you`re that out of it, it`s difficult to do something to a person, even tiny baby and hide all traces and all evidence of it.

HILL: Right.

CLARK: So I think that if this is true that she did something in that state, her husband would have had to help her hide whatever evidence there was. On the other hand, you have to consider the possibility that if she`s that drunk, that passed out, someone could have entered the house without her knowing it.

HILL: Yes.

CLARK: So a lot of possibilities present themselves here.

HILL: You bet. All scenarios seem possible and that`s what I think has made it so difficult for everyone to kind of, you know, come to terms with all this.

But Marcia, you mentioned the dad and -- by the way family attorney, Joe Tacopina, had brought up that fact. You know, look if she was drunk, you know, she wouldn`t have heard somebody coming in. But as you say, if something happened accidental, on purpose, whatever; the father, if she was drunk, would have had to have helped cover things up or done something.

Steve, as "People" magazine interviewed them, I understand the father has seemed as stoic to you all as he has on TV. What do you make of that?

HELLING: Well, you know, I don`t know if he`s still processing everything that happened or, you know, if he`s hiding something we just don`t know. But one thing that`s interesting is that he`s not very expressive as he talks. He wasn`t the one to give long elaborate interviews. He`s more into just a few word type of answers. So that`s going to make it hard to really get down to the truth.

HILL: Yes. And this is a case that is so difficult because there doesn`t seem to be anything that really makes sense. Hard for a person to get in a window, a small window like that, middle of the night. One parent is supposedly drunk, the other at work. It`s a tough case.

Thank you very much for being with us. Steve appreciate your viewpoint.

Marcia, you stay right there and we`ll talk to you a little bit more. And we`ll continue following this story in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back.

We continue talking about this missing 11-month-old baby, Lisa Irwin. Marcia Clark rejoins us and also Pat Brown is with us. She`s the CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling agency.

And I want to talk to you both about some different scenarios of what could have happened to the baby. Pat, if we take the -- and believe that the parents were not involved in this, then what type of person goes in and steals a baby?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, that is one of the problems E.D., in this particular case because we have a 10-month-old baby, not the choice for a woman who wants to pass off the child as her own. Here I am, I`m pregnant, you know I`m really just a little overweight but I`m telling everybody I`m pregnant and look, a 10-month-old baby just walked out of me. That doesn`t go over real well.

So unless you`re going to leave town or you know return home after being away for two years and then say I had this baby last year, you`re really not going to go after a 10-month-old, you`re going to look for an infant. So that`s not terribly likely.

This is not the type of crime that somebody goes and steals a baby for sexual purposes. They usually just attack a baby or maybe their girlfriend`s baby if they want that. And the only -- and the other thing is maybe revenge, somebody is getting back at them.

And the last where I can possibly think is some teenagers who`re really whacked out of their mind, a couple teenagers. But we don`t see a scene where you have a couple of whacked out teenagers there at all.

HILL: Yes. But this is a very strange and unique family dynamic. Marcia we`ve got -- and folks, you know, try to follow this -- but there is a child, the oldest child, is a child by the father of this baby and another woman. The next child down is the child of the mother of this baby and her husband, who she is getting a divorce from. This infant then is the child from both of them.

And Marcia, you know again, we`re looking at scenarios, nobody seems to have any clue as to what`s going on here. But what happens in those cases where you have siblings involved, not necessarily blood -- pure blood siblings, but you know siblings and jealousy and the changing dynamics and family relationships. Doesn`t that have to be something that`s examined?

CLARK: Well, at least the kids have to be considered witnesses possibly. They were in the house at the time which is a big worry because this is very traumatic thing to be talking to little children about.

HILL: Right.

CLARK: It requires very careful handling. I have to say E.D., it is a very scary thing. When you talk to kids, you have to be so careful not to program their response, not to lead them in your questioning. So let`s say to ask open-ended questions that allow them to express what they saw, remember, heard and not try to suggest anything to them because kids are very suggestible and they will try to accommodate and perform for you.

So I think they need to be considered as witnesses and they need to be treated with very gentle hands and be very careful about the way they`re questioned. But questioned I think they should be because they were there they might have heard or seen something and I hope they will get access to these children.

HILL: Well and Pat they -- the parents are saying, no, you`re not talking to these kids anymore. I`ve got an 8-year-old and I can tell you she`s like a parrot. She can repeat everything she wasn`t supposed to be listening to three weeks ago and she can give it to you verbatim.

So yes, these kids probably could tell them a lot. Why does -- with the parents, if they`re trying to find their baby tell the -- tell the investigators you can`t talk to the kids.

BROWN: Well, let me tell you what`s worse about this E.D., it`s not that the mother has said that the kids can`t talk to the police, that can`t be interviewed again, but the mother herself states the children heard something that night. She doesn`t know if it was before or after they went to sleep.

But she hasn`t questioned them because she doesn`t want to upset them. Ok, wait a minute. Your little sister is missing, you`re parents are in the police station all day long, you think a 10-minute conversation asking them when did you hear that noise is going to upset them more than anything else, and you want to bring your little sister home, you want to bring your daughter home.

HILL: Right.

BROWN: And you won`t even talk to your own children. My concern is that she knows her boys heard something and she knows exactly what they heard and that`s why she doesn`t need to question them or wants the police to question them. It`s one of those things that`s putting up big red flags which is why the police are looking at the parents so -- so hard at this point in time.

HILL: Yes well and the fact that they don`t have any other suspects apparently at this time too. That`s who they`re left with.

Marcia, you know, we -- we have also heard of cases where parents have accidentally injured or even killed their children accidentally and then they tried to cover it up. What is it that you look for when you`re investigating or prosecuting a case to try to point out ok, here`s -- here`s the line that determines accident, intentional.

CLARK: Well, you have to go to the physical evidence. You have to find a body. You`re going to have to show a cause of death that is consistent with some kind of trauma that`s inflicted by some form of gross negligence on the part of the parent.

And if you don`t find the body, you`re going to have a very, very hard time proving that unless you can come up with physical evidence in the house, blood drop, a dent in the -- in the piece of wood or something that indicate a blow was struck in some manner that had to involve the parents` negligent behavior.

It`s difficult --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Yes.

CLARK: AND if they don`t find a body, I don`t know that they will be able to prove it.

Let me throw out also the possibility, and I do not want to say that I in anyway believe this at this time, but the possibility has also been raised that perhaps the younger siblings themselves were responsible for some accident with the baby and that the mother is protecting them by not letting them be questioned.

So there are -- I think what the bottom line is here is that there are so many possibilities; we can`t possibly choose between them without more evidence before us.

HILL: Yes. Well here is my hope and that is the parents aren`t letting the kids watch any TV or see any newspapers whatsoever. Because you know, innocent -- presumed -- they`re innocent and it would just be horrible if they were having to listen to all of this. And -- but it`s what -- it`s what people are doing because there doesn`t seem to be any rational logical explanation for it.

And you know Marcia you talked about how the new techniques and everything to get evidence and collect things and people may not realize what they left behind. But I`ll tell you what, I love NCIS and CSI and all of that stuff. I`m shocked at how much I`ve learned about covering up crimes. Has it become more difficult to investigate crimes after the success of these shows?

CLARK: Well, sure. And it`s kind of -- this kind of thing where one moves forward and then the other one meets it. You know, the law enforcement moves forward and advances what they know and then the criminals get up to meet them and move out ahead of them. And then you know it keeps going like that.

And there was a time when no one knew about fingerprints so no one bothered to wear gloves.

HILL: Right.

CLARK: And the minute the criminals found out about that they started to wear gloves. So people are now getting more smart about wearing gloves, hair nets, whatever to try and prevent them from using -- from leaving anything at the crime scene as we get more and more sophisticated in our abilities to detect presence at a crime scene.

HILL: Thank you very much ladies. Appreciate your time, Pat and Marcia, thank you.

We will be right back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, an Ohio town is on lockdown after dozens of dangerous exotic animals escaped from a local preserve. We`ll have the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: A frightening story in Ohio today where nearly 50 wild animals were shot and killed after they were released from a private sanctuary.

Joining me now is the director emeritus of the Columbus Zoo, Jack Hanna. Jack, this guy was clearly a nut job who didn`t care about anybody else. He opens the gates, lets these animals out and then kills himself.

You`ve been there since they started investigating this and looking for the animals. Have you figured out what was going on in his mind, why this happened?

JACK HANNA, COLUMBUS ZOO: You know, I listened to the history of this man and I didn`t know this man. I think the man just got out of prison several weeks ago and someone said that`s on firearms charges. Picture a man whose wife had left him, I understand; picture a man who came back probably from prison and saw the filth that my people tell me was abominable up there. Filth and stuff these animals are living in.

All of a sudden you see him depressed. I can see this man going out there cutting the fences about 4:00 or 5:00 yesterday afternoon. Cutting all the fences, opening all the doors and then going down there and laying down and killing himself and saying they`re all free now.

Well, you can see what happened here. What happened here, we avoided a tragedy this morning with human life probably. I mean the sheriff was telling me that -- and I`m getting calls from Europe, Canada, England, all over the place saying that I`m supporting a man who shot these animals. I`m not doing that at all.

I`m saying that his decision last night -- he said Jack going up there and seeing 18 Bengal tigers, lions, leopards, bears, coming all out this way, jumping the fences and getting out here. One bear was gotten right over here next to the interstate right here that I`m pointing to. This animal`s tough, the man`s property is right there. There are homes all throughout here.

Do you know what would have happened this morning if these animals had been out over night? There would have been carnage here that you wouldn`t even want to see. So it`s probably one of the largest animal escapes in the history of our country that took place here. No one lost their lives but now that it`s all over, I`m sitting. I know I`m getting a little bit emotional. But seeing here and watching as my people went up there. 18 Bengal tigers, lions, leopards, all laying out there.

What did this man do as you said? Look what happened here; a tragedy beyond comprehension for the animal world is what happened.

Hill: Yes. And you`re right. I mean the people, the kids they`re so close, they have the schools close today, I understand, because they still had a couple of animals out there. But the first thing that went through my mind and explain to me why this wasn`t practical? I thought why do you have to kill them? Can`t you just shoot them with tranquilizers?

HANNA: No.

HILL: Why not?

HANNA: You can`t do that because -- all right. Let me tell you what happened this afternoon then I`ll go back to last night.

HILL: Sure.

HANNA: This afternoon we had a Bengal tiger. It was -- some were still missing obviously. They searched and there he was down in the grass, all right, over 300 pounds. The veterinarian we have, a lady who`s an excellent shot got within about 20 feet of the animal, shot the animal, hit the animal and was tranquilized, what did the animal do? Comes at the veterinarian. Now, what are we to do?

HILL: Yes.

HANNA: Remember something. I lost a very dear friend of mine in 1978 in Biloxi, Tennessee, Dr. Bill Montgomery. Same thing, media`s all around one tiger escaped from the zoo. They head them all there getting ready to tranquilize it. The tiger takes one leap, right on top of him, gutsy, he`s dead instantaneously, the sharpshooter shot the tiger off.

We would have had that same thing last night. Remember something, you cannot tranquilize an animal in the dark. You might be able to see the animal, you pop the animal. You don`t know where the darts hit, whether the plungers got in with the drug. You can`t tell when in the dark, so what do you do?

Let`s say the animal goes and lays down. Ok, Mr. Veterinarian or Mr. Sheriff, go up there and check the animal. What do you think could happen to that person? They could be killed. You can`t tranquilize in the dark.

What decision would you have done seeing all these animals come down here towards darkness. A decision can`t be made, let`s have a meeting. It had to be done now. That was the decision he made and now all these animals lost their lives.

HILL: You`re the expert so it greatly helps having you here to help us understand why the decisions were made and what`s going on there.

Please stay with us. We`re going to take a quick break. More with Jack Hanna after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: I`m back with Jack Hannah, talking about the exotic animals that were let loose in Zanesville, Ohio, and they had to go out and shoot and kill many of them to protect the people in that area.

Jack, when folks like this guy get into collecting exotic animals, do they really know what it`s going to take? The amount of money, the time, the space?

HANNA: A very good question, it`s the first time I`ve been asked that today. You`re right. It`s not a matter of buying the animal for $500 for $1,000, buy a lion or a tiger. How much money does it take to take care of it? We just built a $21 million habitat for polar bears, maybe three or four later on. A $4 million habitat for grizzlies. A $3 million habitat for Siberian tigers. That`s what we`re talking about here.

Now, how did this man get the animals, that`s probably the question everybody is asking you right now? How did this guy get to collect all these animals? I`m sorry to say that Ohio`s laws are weak. As we speak right now, Governor Kasich is in meetings right now with our people deciding how this bill is supposed to be finalized. They`ve been working on this for about six months right now, and of course it took a tragic thing like this to happen to kind of get this thing pushed forward very quickly.

We have animal auctions here in the state of Ohio where guys can buy cobras, lions, tigers. We`re one of the few states left that does that. Those are going to be shut down immediately. Immediately. Therefore, that the source away, like drugs, that takes the source of the animals away. People like this, they`re not going to take care of them properly. I`m not talking about people who are licensed people, who actually help us or breeding animals in the zoological world. I`m talking about guys like this, who just collect wild animals, like collecting a bunch of loaded guns. Are you kidding me? That`s what happened up here. Those people we have shut down. We are trying to build a repository here, help the state. When we get these animals, we`d put them there so that we can place these animals in proper facilities. So we`re working night and day now since this happened last night to get this thing done immediately.

HILL: You mentioned that Terry Thompson had been in jail recently, I believe it was on gun charges. Do you know who was taking care of the animals while he was in prison? You mentioned the filthy conditions, the horrible conditions these animals were living in?

HANNA: According to my staff here, (inaudible) and people up there who are veterinarians, it was horrid, it was filth. I guess there was a guy taking care of them. I don`t know who the guy is. I saw him walking around here today. He was obviously very critical to tell us the number of animals that were up there. We never knew that until later today. He had 50- something animals loose, how many tigers, we had to know. That`s why the animals had to be kept out there. And by the way, they`ve just been buried on the property right now. They`re burying the animals. There`s no use for anybody to experience, just the family to watch what happened here today.

I will remember this for the rest off my life. This is something that, you know, I just can`t describe what`s happening here. Thank God there is no people that have been harmed or killed. But still, we lost my favorite -- something I dedicate my life to, and that`s the animal world. We`ve lost 18 Bengal tigers, along with everything else up here, and that`s something that to me is -- I will never forget it as long as I live.

HILL: It is sad. Jack, thanks so much for being with us.

HANNA: Thank you.

HILL: Joining me now is Dr. Bhagavan Antle, the director of the Myrtle Beach Safari wildlife preserve and founder of the Institute of Greatly Endangered and Rare Species. Thanks for being with us. You know, I was just talking to Jack Hanna about whether or not you needed to shoot to kill these animals. What did you think? Did you agree with the decision?

DR. BHAGAVAN ANTLE, DIRECTOR, MYRTLE BEACH SAFARI: I think it`s a very unfortunate circumstance that`s taken place here, but you have got a very strong public safety issue. The gentlemen, I`m sure, don`t want to kill these animals but they certainly don`t want to allow someone to get hurt. So you have to consider the big picture of the animals are out there, there`s no easy way to contain them. I know a lot of people wish that there was that chemical immobilization, the tranquilizer gun that would work like you see it on television, where you could shoot them and they would go to sleep. But it`s very unrealistic. These animals often take 20 minutes to fall asleep after you shoot them with the tranquilizer, and the tranquilizer rifle makes them very wound up. It spooks them and has the tendency to make them run away further. So you`re left with a terrible option of a lethal action.

HILL: You know, help me understand what`s going on in Ohio. Like many states, probably like all states, there are regulations for cats and dogs and you have got to have all sorts of tags and shots. I know that Ohio regulates bears and you have to have some kind of approval for ownership, but not other things like lions and tigers. I`m having trouble making sense of that. Can you help me?

ANGLE: There`s still a handful of states that have not gotten a specific set of rules. For most states it doesn`t matter, because there`s not a native population of exotic animals there. And there are great federal regulations preventing the movement of these animals across state lines for private ownership or pets.

But Ohio sits as a very unique situation. It`s a heavy farming community. It`s always had a great amount of agriculture take place. And many people a few decades ago got into this alternative farming idea. They said let`s try and farm ostrich and bison and unique antelopes, and we will have this alternative to the regular animals that the market isn`t as strong on. And from that, other exotic animal sells and buying actions started taking place and they got out of hand. The population got very large and it became easier and easier.

Parts of it are it`s America, you`re farming, you`re trying to do something. But other parts of it got a little dangerous, how to hold them, the kind of caging they`re in, all got a little sloppy, and this guy became the king of sloppy cages with improper housing.

HILL: I know plenty of people that have exotics, and a lot of folks who raise the emus and the bison and ostrich. I get that, and I actually think it`s pretty cool. However, it`s kind of odd to go for all the lions and tigers and everything else that he was doing. That`s clearly not someone who was thinking of, you know, raising these animals because it`s a healthier meat alternative, or they`re going to sell the eggs or anything else. There doesn`t seem to be any really rational reason for it, is there?

ANTLE: What he`s doing is irrational. It`s a guy that lived by a different idea. This was a guy that was investigated by the ATF, firearms and tobacco guy, he had machine guns, he had weapons. He had been into jail. He had 11 counts against him for animal cruelty charges, and nothing happened.

HILL: All right . Stop there. Stop there. Because that really, really bothers me. I eat meat but I love animals. And I don`t understand how a person charged and I believe convicted of animal cruelty can still be allowed to not only be around animals, but then be around these exotic animals that need extra special care and feeding and containment. How does that happen?

ANTLE: I think that many people dropped the ball. I don`t think that he was watched over carefully enough. I think that people said it`s too big of a problem, I don`t want to be involved. I think that he just went a little too far, a little too often, and he was a guy living on the fringe and people kind of left him alone. And I think that that just changed things.

It`s not that having lions and tigers is bad onto itself. It is the way he took care of them that made it take place. Properly managed wildlife can become a great tool for wildlife education, like this magnificent guy. This is my friend Murtae (ph). This is a beautiful big tiger. He`s one of 67 tigers that live with us at the Myrtle Beach Safari that work and do our wildlife education. We meet millions of people because of having these kind of characters and help shape their ideas about conservation, the choices that they make and how it affects the world.

But it`s a very specific kind of housing, qualified staff. It takes 26 full-time people and millions of dollars to properly do this.

This guy didn`t have those resources and he didn`t seem to care. It seemed like something was wrong and he went postal.

HILL: He must have had some kind of cash, because I know that those animals are expensive, and he had a lot of them. I got a list here. He had 18 Bengal tigers. Three mountain lions, eight female lions, two grizzly bears. Those things don`t come cheap. So where did this guy get his cash, or was he just keeping them on such a bottom of the barrel budget that he was barely able to get by? But still, besides that, you have got to have the cash to buy them. That`s tough.

ANTLE: Well, he started out with those few thousands of dollars to acquire those animals. It`s not hundreds of thousands. But then once he got them, he never put in proper housing. He had substandard cages that you wouldn`t want to keep your dog in. He had animals dying, he was feeding old carcasses to animals. The place was operating in a bad way.

And then the man himself obviously was in a bad way. He went postal like what happens at great institutions in America. What went wrong with the guy is that he went postal around exotic animals. His breakdown is really the issue that happened where he went so far and allowed everything to go to pieces within his own mind. And someone dropped the ball by not watching over that guy right.

And he had a lot of people complain. People from our organization, the Feline Conservation Federation, were at that facility. They counted it as the worst place they had ever seen, that it was just completely an abomination, and still OK that local law enforcement didn`t force the issue. Maybe they can`t regulate the animals, but you would have hoped someone would have regulated the public safety concept that he was not doing it by any means the right way.

HILL: Well, and an appropriate condition to keep animals. You certainly can get into that. Bhagavan, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

ANTLE: Thank you. Have a good evening.

HILL: Love that cat. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Explosive courtroom drama for Lindsay Lohan today. The troubled actress was handcuffed and taken into custody after the judge revoked probation after she failed to comply with her community service requirements. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE STEPHANIE SAUTNER: What we`re left with is Ms. Lohan`s actions deliberately made it impossible for her to perform her sentence at the Downtown Women`s Center. Probation, as you know, as the prosecutor knows, and has always been my view, is a gift. There`s something called looking a gift horse in the mouth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: That`s what she thought she was doing. Joining me again to talk about the latest developments, Marcia Clark, former O.J. Simpson prosecutor and author of "Guilt by Association," and Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of "Issues With Jane Velez-Mitchell" right here on HLN.

By the way, great show today, Jane. Let me start with you. You know, Lohan gets kicked out of the place where she`s supposed to be doing her community service after being a no-show nine times. Did she expect anything else?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Listen, I think she regards all this court stuff as just another appointment, like when she gets a manicure and has FU painted on her fingernails. This doesn`t phase her in the least. This is a woman who has been to rehab numerous times, I think it`s something like five times, she`s been in front of a slew of judges, and she feels she is special and the rules do not apply to her.

And that is a very common attitude. It`s even called terminally unique because it often results in termination of important things like sometimes your life. This is a very dangerous attitude. Unfortunately, the court system reinforces it, because no matter how much they scream and yell at her and cuff her, she always seems to saunter out. Right now, she`s already out. Where`s the penalty here? Judgment day never seems to arrive, E.D.

HILL: And, Marcia, you know that as well as anybody. The judge was even alluding to this. You can sentence people, but they frequently aren`t going to serve even close to the time of jail that you sentence them to, even -- even if they even go to jail, especially in California.

About this case, though. There did seem to be -- her lawyer was doing a valiant job attempting to show that Lindsay Lohan was being treated in a different way, that she was actually being treated harsher than anybody else who was not named Lindsay Lohan. Was that accurate?

MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It might be, to tell you the truth. It`s very true that we have a very serious overcrowding problem in the jails, and that they`re actually having to put felons in the kind of custody you would ordinarily only put misdemeanor offenders in, because there just isn`t room. They don`t have the beds. They can`t really provide. And when you have these low level crimes -- and let`s face it, I mean, Lindsay Lohan, the girlfriend has issues. And she definitely has -- she`s in trouble for a lot of good reasons, but none of the reasons involved violent conduct yet. There is one pending allegation regarding an assault on a Betty Ford worker. We`ll see what happens with that.

But right now, she`s not somebody who ranks in the level of felony offenders normally sent to state prison. As a result, they will not waste a bed on her. So a judge knows that no matter what they sentence her to, they are only allowed a certain amount given the crime that she`s on -- she`s got pending right now, they are going to kick her, they are going to turn her right out again. So why bother.

What the judge is smart in doing is putting in new restrictions, new standards, new demands for her to meet in terms of what the probation might be. Having her go to work at the morgue struck me as a great one, and that`s the latest that the judge mentioned.

HILL: That was a very interesting one. Jane, she did -- Lindsay did go on and complete some of the community service, but the judge apparently is not going to give her any credit for that. Did that surprise you?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what, I have to respectfully disagree with my dear friend, Marcia, because I think it is serious what she did. It was two DUIs and reckless driving and possession of cocaine, and I remember very, very vividly that she was involved in a high-speed chase down Pacific Coast Highway, chasing after some relative of a former assistant who was so terrified that she called 911 and actually drove -- Lindsay followed her into a police station. That`s how terrified the woman was, and then she tried to blame it on one of the kids who was in the car.

I have lived in California, where I see poor minority kids put down on the ground spread eagle for having an open beer can. There is a two-tiered system of justice in this country, and one for the rich and famous and powerful and the other for those who are not. And I do feel she has been given special treatment.

I know of people who have done time in jail for not paying their parking tickets. I know of people who have been handcuffed for outstanding parking tickets. And I just think that she is getting off easy, but I say that respectfully because I`m a big admirer of Marcia Clark as well.

Ed: Well, I`ll--

CLARK: Can I just say -- can I just correct the record real quick? I agree with Jane. I don`t think we do disagree. Her conduct was serious. But when you compare her to a murderer, when you compare her to the kinds of people that you know, the carjacker and the robbers and the rapists, it doesn`t stack up the same. And a judge looks at that and says, look, given the crime I have and the available sentencing options I have, the prison is not going to allow her a bed, they are going to turn her right around.

So it`s a pragmatic thing. I`m not at all saying, Jane, that this is not serious conduct, I agree that it is. And I agree actually that there is a two-tiered system of justice here, where celebrities like her get slaps on the wrist. I`m not so sure she is not being made an example of in addition to all that, but I think she deserves whatever the judge can throw at her. Because she`s thumbing her nose.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You look at that video of her, though, and I just keep thinking back to that cute little kid on "Parent Trap." And you go, where did that little, adorable child go? Clearly gone. She is a mess, and we`re going to talk about that in just a minute. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Well, I`m back with my panel talking about Lindsay Lohan, who was hauled off in handcuffs today after a judge revoked her probation. And this judge, I think rightly so, had her panties in a bunch. And you got a taste of it in a couple of things that she said. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAUTNER: You know, if jail meant something in the state of California now, maybe I`d put her in jail. But come on, you know. Is anybody doing any time on their jail sentences? Sheriffs?

OK. Now all of our parolees are down here and now you know, even some of the famous cases that are going on in LA face only county jail time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: You could tell that she was frustrated. And this is what you were just talking about, both Marcia and Jane. You can sentence somebody and that really doesn`t mean a thing in California, let alone Los Angeles. Marcia, it`s got to be difficult for the judges and the prosecutors.

CLARK: Yeah, exactly. Their hands are tied. They know that no matter what they do, it`s like spitting into the wind. I am going to say I am going to sentence you to a year in county jail, which is what her violation probably would get her, and it means nothing, because the sheriff then say, look, we don`t have bed space for somebody like you and turn her right around.

So the judge is better off if she really wants to exact her pound of flesh from Lindsay Lohan, then impose conditions of probation that require her to actually perform and perform some really gnarly duties, like the morgue, I mean, which is a great one. Go in and do this stuff. And I have to say, Lindsay Lohan has shown herself really willing to thumb her nose at everybody. It doesn`t matter how many conditions are imposed.

I don`t know what it takes to get this girl`s attention, because it seems that the 11th hour is the only time she even starts to try and comply. And, eventually, she`s going to wind up in prison because she just keeps reoffending. And something really bad is going to happen as Jane has already told you about, described that flight down PCH. She kills somebody, it`s over. And God forbid it gets that far.

HILL: The judge did get to do a little flipping of her own. She made a bit of a dig at Lohan`s career. And, Jane, I want you to listen to this and tell me what your reaction action was. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAUTNER: What I said, and I was really clear, is that she needed to get off the stick, start doing that community service, because I wasn`t going to hear one year from April 22nd that she had no time because of work. That if she got on a movie -- she is supposed to be an actress, from what I hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Oh, what did you make of that, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ouch. Well, I mean, she`s sarcastic and telling it like it is. She`s supposed to do this Gotti movie. Whatever happened to that? I think that`s on hold. For all the flying she`s doing hither and yon across the pond, we`re not seeing a lot of the product. And it`s a tragedy. Listen, I`m a recovering alcoholic with 16 years of sobriety. I want to see her succeed. This is not the way. The only thing that`s going to work with her is tough love.

HILL: Yeah, well, maybe that is finally coming to her. She certainly needs help, that I think we can all agree on. Jane, Marcia, thank you very much and thank you for watching. For more on the Lindsay Lohan case, stick around. "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" is next. I`m E.D. Hill. Good night.

END