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Latest on Casey Anthony; Where is Baby Lisa?

Aired October 20, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Casey Anthony`s "E! True Hollywood" story airs and Casey Anthony Halloween costumes fly off the shelves. So how long until she starts collecting royalties from all this?

Then, with leads running dry in the search for Baby Lisa, did cops find anything when they searched the parents` house? We`ll have the latest.

Plus Lindsay Lohan`s probation was revoked, that means more jail time is looming. We`ll look at what`s in store for the troubled starlet.

That and more starting right now.

E.D. HILL, GUEST HOST: Good evening. Welcome to the show. I`m E.D. Hill, sitting in for Joy this week.

Casey Anthony has been out of sight since she was acquitted of murdering her daughter back in July. And her lawyers are now fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way. Today attorneys for Anthony and Zenaida Gonzalez were in court arguing over Anthony`s recent video deposition and whether it should be made public.

Here now to discuss the deposition and the latest in the Casey Anthony case: Gloria Allred, victims` rights attorney and host of "We, the People with Gloria Allred"; Diane Fanning, author of "Mommy`s Little Girl", a book about the Casey Anthony case; and Linda Kenney-Baden, former member of the Casey Anthony defense team.

Thank you, all, very much for being with us.

Gloria, let me start with you. Why does the attorney want to have this deposition released?

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, apparently or reportedly, according to the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez, the deposition should be released because the court needs to rule on whether or not Casey Anthony did have a right to invoke her privilege against self-incrimination or fifth amendment privilege.

In other words, during the deposition she refused to answer certain questions because she claimed her 5th amendment privilege against self- incrimination. So the attorney is trying to have the court determine did she have the right to invoke that privilege or not? And the only way to find that out is to have the deposition as part of the public record.

HILL: And Linda, Casey Anthony`s attorneys say, wait a second, you`re just trying to inflame the public here. That`s the only reason you want that out. Is that valid?

LINDA KENNEY-BADEN, FORMER MEMBER OF CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE TEAM: Sure, because you can rule as Gloria said -- by the way, Gloria, I love your show -- but you can rule on the depositions under seal. You don`t need to see them.

And you heard Mr. Morgan today. He got up there and he said, well, the only reason they want to keep them secret, is because there`s wining and dining in New York from Barbara Walters seeing a Broadway play. You know, I took offense at that. You know why -- because I was part of that dinner. I`m not even just part of the dinner -- I planned the dinner.

HILL: I saw video of that. I heard that you were out with this shishi (ph) group of folks having this dinner. So what were you trying -- were you trying to get the interview? Trying to get the --

KENNEY-BADEN: No, as a matter of fact, look -- I brought you the Playbill, Frank Langela`s play "Man and Boy". And something that you`ve never seen in secret. This is when I bought the tickets in July. July, you know, when -- and I paid for this -- Frank is a very old friend of my family, and my husband who you know.

HILL: Yes, I know. But when you, Barbara Walters and all these other folks show up in the same place I don`t think it`s a coincidence.

KENNEY-BADEN: But it was.

HILL: Well, we`ll see.

Diane, let me ask you because you understand the Anthony family. Do you think that Casey Anthony is ever going to give open, honest, full- length answers to any questions?

DIANE FANNING, AUTHOR, "MOMMY`S LITTLE GIRL": I sincerely doubt it, because I don`t think she`s capable of being completely and totally honest. I don`t think the story she told her attorneys was open and honest. And I don`t think that she will ever admit to what really happened to little Caylee.

HILL: Gloria, by not answering these questions, doesn`t that make her look bad?

ALLRED: It may make her look bad. I don`t think she has a terrific reputation with the public in any event.

HILL: Right.

ALLRED: But the point I think that the plaintiff`s attorney for Miss Gonzalez is, don`t treat her any differently than you would treat anyone else. The plaintiff`s attorney is arguing that anyone else would be able to have this deposition filed and not be under seal.

Of course, there is a difference here because the argument is that the press would give it more scrutiny than they would to the typical defendant in a civil case, and that it could prejudice the right of a fair trial that Casey Anthony is entitled to like anyone else. This could contaminate the potential jury pool. That`s the argument. We`ll have to see what the court decides in ten days.

KENNEY-BADEN: Also E.D., one other thing. One other thing is people who have depositions -- depositions are taken every day, in every case around the country many people who are defendants don`t have threats of having bullet holes through their heads like we just saw today with Gadhafi. She has these threats. She is different, she has to be protected.

What should we care what she does in a deposition? I mean, there are a lot more important things going on in this world.

HILL: Well, here`s something -- and Gloria help me understand -- I`m fairly simple so I didn`t follow this argument. Zenaida Gonzalez apparently is upset, and rightfully so, because Casey Anthony said it was a nanny with her name that had taken the child. Now, anyone watching this trial knows they determined that was a bunch of bunk, so by filing this case, she`s bringing herself back into the limelight, that doesn`t make sense to me. If you don`t want people to be linking you to this, why do it yourself?

ALLRED: Well, of course, there is a very strong argument that she has brought herself into the public view and associated with this argument that at one time Casey Anthony made that it was a Zenaida Gonzalez that took Caylee. On the other hand, of course, anyone has the right to file a defamation case. That would be a public document. It has to be a public document and really she couldn`t have filed it under seal so just filing it alone doesn`t mean that she`s caused herself to be known even more than otherwise.

But I think that the defendant will certainly be questioning her on what else she did. What did she do to try to mitigate her damages. What in fact were her damages and how this, in fact, defamed her.

HILL: You know, Diane. It`s not just attorneys that she`s not talking to, apparently it`s her parents also. She reportedly said in this deposition, she hasn`t spoken to her parents since October of 2008. Do you see that changing?

FANNING: Right. No, I really don`t see that changing unless at some point along the way Casey decides that it would be, in her opinion, in her best interests to re-contact her parents. Right now she doesn`t think it is. And I would not expect any narcissist to do something that they do not perceive to be in their best interests.

HILL: When -- take a look at video here of her right now. What is she like as a human being? We all have, I guess, the worst image because of this case. But you have gotten to know the players in this. Is she an absolute narcissist? Does she realize that what she`s done to impact other people? How she`s hurt them?

FANNING: I do believe she`s a total narcissist. I think that she tends to look at things more as -- if I hurt you, it`s your fault. She claimed to be the one that her parents should be looking at when her parents were being harassed in their own front yard. And she`s always drawing attention to herself in every single situation. And it`s -- it must be difficult for her now to have to be in hiding and not be the center of attention of all her friends.

HILL: Right. Linda, I know that Equusearch is now hoping to sue her. Equusearch came in and were helping with this and I think they said they spent $100,000 or more in the search. And then she said, no, I knew my daughter had drowned in the pool. Who all can sue?

KENNEY-BADEN: Anyone can sue anybody today. And you know what; the problem we have today is you get all this publicity if you sue. You may get more donations if you sue. You may get a judgment. Lawyers get their name in the paper.

I really have to take issue with calling Casey names from people who really do not know her. I receive, I must say, during this trial, lots of e-mails of women who support her and see, can see through the family dynamic. And I think it just --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You got a lot of e-mails from women saying they supported her?

KENNEY-BADEN: Absolutely. Absolutely. There are Web sites supporting. And to just say we don`t like her, she`s this or she`s that or she`s the other thing is really to disregard a lot of other women who have also suffered what this young lady has suffered.

HILL: Ok. You`re telling me she`s a really nice girl?

KENNEY-BADEN: I`m telling you that what you do for the media attention, and everyone`s doing is not necessarily what you see in a picture. And we have to be careful about calling people names.

ALLRED: E.D.

HILL: Yes. Go ahead, Gloria.

ALLRED: E.D. in reference to Equusearch, Linda who is a fantastic attorney, failed to mention that the court has refused to dismiss the Equusearch case. And what they`re saying is, Equusearch, that they were told that, in fact, Caylee was still alive. They were told that by Casey, that`s why they expended so much time, so much money, so much effort in trying to find Caylee, and that`s why they want the money back because they say they were lied to.

KENNEY-BADEN: Well -- I love you Gloria.

HILL: Linda, Gloria, Diane, thank you very much.

We will be right back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next, the search for missing Baby Lisa heats up. Police search her parents` home through the night. So, what did they find?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Well, that poor little Missouri baby is still missing and her house now looks like a scene out of CSI. Dozens of police and forensic officers dressed in Hazmat suits combed the house for clues in the case of missing Baby Lisa. And that search took hours and it`s fueled the speculation. Why search now after all this time has passed? What are they looking for and are the parents the prime suspects?

For the latest news on this case coming out of Kansas City, we go to Jim Spellman. Jim, what`s the latest today?

JIM SPELLMAN, CNN ALL-PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Much different scene here today; it`s quiet again. All the investigators have left. They were here though until 1:00 in the morning, at least a dozen dressed in those white CSI suits they used to not contaminate a scene. They were searching inside the house and in the back using shovels and rakes in a grassy dirt area behind the shed, garage and the back. They were at that for hours.

We also have learned E.D. that inside the house they were using x- rays. They were going in and out with these black panels, about three feet by two feet, using them to x-ray. We don`t know what, but we do know that in other investigations they`ve used that technology to look inside of walls or pipes, that sort of thing. We`re not sure what they were looking for there or if they found anything, but we do know they were using the x- rays -- dozens, maybe hundreds of times yesterday.

HILL: Well, you`ve got to imagine, they`re either looking for an infant or they`re looking for some kind of weapon that may have been used. I mean nothing else really makes sense.

What about this no fly zone that was ordered over the area?

SPELLMAN: Yes, that`s right. They`ve done that a couple times in the last few days around searches, clearly to keep news helicopters away. We understand that it`s one because they use dogs in these searches and it can be distracting to the dogs. Also I think they just want a little bit of privacy. When they do that, they move all the media back to the end of the block.

And you can still see what`s going on, but not close up like you could with a helicopter. So they`ve been doing that. They`ve definitely ramped up these searches with a lot more manpower and technology. And it would seem a lot more intensity in the last few days, E.D.

HILL: Well, a couple days ago, you were telling me that they had gone in searched the neighbor`s house but they hadn`t released, you know, what they had done there, what they had taken. Have you learned anything more?

SPELLMAN: We haven`t. But that neighbor is really crucial especially since Deborah Bradley, the mother of Baby Lisa revealed that she`s sort of changed her time line from initially saying she last saw the baby at 10:30 to now saying about 6:40 in the evening. We know from that 6:40 time frame until 10:30 or so, she was with this neighbor.

So that neighbor could be really key to understanding what`s going on, why there are there discrepancies. But we still don`t know what, if anything, of value they`ve gotten from that neighbor.

HILL: All right. Jim Spellman, thanks so much.

Joining us now, private investigator Tom Ruskin and criminal defense attorney, Rosemarie Arnold. Tom I`m going to start with you. What`s with the x-ray panels?

TOM RUSKIN, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: The x-ray panels are standard operating procedure for police departments.

HILL: Ok. But is that what they`re looking for, a body or a weapon?

RUSKIN: They`re looking for something in the walls. It could be a body, like what they did when they found the body of the college student up in Pennsylvania. Or some kind of evidence. And what you do as a technician is you put that panel up against and you x-ray it as you would a bomb or a suitcase you suspect has a bomb. And that`s the reason for the bomb truck. They bring it out, it quickly develops the film and they can see what`s in that wall.

HILL: Rosemarie, why this huge show of force now?

You know, you had the parents for a couple weeks. You`ve had access to the house. And yet all of a sudden it`s now that they have the bomb- sniffing dogs and they`ve got the no-fly and they`ve got the x-ray panels and all this stuff. Why now?

ROSEMARIE ARNOLD, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We can guess. My guess is that they have another lead and they think they`re going to find something else in this house.

And, you know, I saw Bill Stanton the investigator this morning on the morning shows. It seems to me like he`s backing up a little bit also. You know, he`s a former cop, maybe he knows something that we don`t know.

HILL: You mean, he`s sort of couching himself more?

ARNOLD: Seems to me. I heard him say -- and I wrote it down because I said, "Wow, I can`t believe he said that." All along he`s been saying I don`t work for this people, I work for the benefactor. But this morning he said, "I`m still looking at them with some suspicion." So you have to think, if he`s going to say something like that.

And then on another show I heard him say, "I would assume this was done by accident." Maybe he knows something.

HILL: That`s interesting.

You know Tom, we were talking off camera and we`re saying, how could they have done it? If they did it how could you do it. And you were talking about the time line, there`s just not a lot of time to -- if you`re going to get rid of a body, do it well and thoroughly.

RUSKIN: Right. And she didn`t know when her husband was going to -- if her boyfriend was going to come home. Jeremy, the father of the child - -

HILL: Right.

RUSKIN: -- she didn`t know when he was going to come home. So if she accidentally killed that baby, she doesn`t have a lot of time and she doesn`t know when Jeremy`s going to come home.

Jeremy for all intents and purposes has an airtight alibi --

HILL: Yes, he was at work.

RUSKIN: -- that`s backed up by video in the place in which he was working which was a Starbucks close by. She doesn`t have a lot of time, and what does she do if she accidentally killed the baby? What does she do?

What we do know is at 4:30 that afternoon -- about 4:30 -- she`s out with her brother and she`s buying the wine which she consumed later. But she`s buying baby supplies. So unless she really was trying to cover up something she had done earlier, why would you be buying baby supplies?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: That`s one of the little things that usually criminals don`t think of, you know. It`s a tiny detail.

Rosemarie, she`s come out and she herself acknowledged, yes, I bought the wine. Yes, I was drunk. Yes, I may have blacked out. Is that something that perhaps a defense attorney would tell a person, if they said, we better prepare for the worst so you need an excuse?

ARNOLD: You know, I know Joe, and I know Joe would never tell her to say that if it wasn`t actually true.

HILL: No, lawyers never do that, do they?

ARNOLD: Absolutely not. In this case, if in fact it is true, it would explain again an accident rather than a deliberate action. I was so drunk I just didn`t know what happened.

You know, you`re a mother, I`m a mother. We go to bed, we don`t sleep with fans (ph). We don`t pass out because we want to know that if our children cough in the middle of the night or if they`re having a bad dream, we can hear them.

HILL: You know, since this thing started, I got up last night about 3:00 in the morning and -- my husband, what time is it, 3:00 -- I went to check in on the kids. I think this thing gets in all of our heads.

We`re going to take a quick break. More on this discussion after this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, now that Lindsay Lohan`s probation has been revoked, could the actress soon be seeing some hard time?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back. I`m still with criminal defense attorney Rosemarie Arnold and private investigator Tom Ruskin, talking about the disappearance of Baby Lisa.

And something to share with people -- you just said and it was -- I don`t see this --

RUSKIN: I don`t see her as being guilty. Now, maybe I want to look at the favorable side of this.

HILL: I know. We all do. We all don`t think the mom --

(CROSSTALK)

RUSKIN: I hate to believe that the mom accidentally or purposely killed her own 10-month-old, 11-month-old baby. But with that said, you have to keep looking at her. The time line is very fine. I could play both sides of this time line and make it that she did it, she didn`t do it. But my inclination is, she didn`t do it.

But I`m not so sure if her story relative to the window and the door. If you`re that drunk and you sort of almost pass out from that much wine, how do you know you didn`t lock the front door? How do you know that the front door wasn`t opened and someone could have just walked in be it someone who`s doing it for the money, someone who`s paying her. Someone who feels the kid isn`t being cared for properly or anything else.

HILL: Rosemarie, what would you be counseling the family right now?

ARNOLD: The same thing that Joe was saying, stay out of the press. Don`t talk to people, don`t talk on TV. Give them all the information that you have, to the police, regarding where you think your daughter could be, or who you know or anybody who would want to hurt you or hurt her or anything suspicious that you have seen.

HILL: But the police have come out and they very forcefully have said, she hasn`t been answering all the questions. And when we talked to her, she starts getting uncomfortable and ends the conversations.

ARNOLD: Well, you know, that`s what we hear from the police. And then you hear from their defense attorney that they`re cooperating, they`ll give all the information that they want. That`s why they have Joe Tacopina as their defense attorney.

HILL: So what does it boil down to? In a case like this, do you have to find a body?

ARNOLD: I think so. I think at this point if you don`t find a body, you`re never going to solve this.

RUSKIN: Unless they found some evidence in the wall yesterday that somehow implicates the mother, at that point in time you -- listen, I think there`s a good chance if she was kidnapped that she`s still alive. No one would walk into the house to kidnap the baby to kill it.

HILL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

RUSKIN: So the good news here is if someone did walk in and take the child, chances are -- overall chances are that the child is still alive.

ARNOLD: But what are they finding in a wall? I mean the lady says that she`s so drunk that she blacked. So when did she drill a hole in the wall and put something in there and then plastered --

(CROSSTALK)

RUSKIN: That`s if you believe her story.

(CROSSTALK)

RUSKIN: If you believe her story and there are ways to put things in a wall through a roof and so on and so forth that police can find.

HILL: But what kind of person goes in? If you want a baby, you steal a baby. Who goes in to take a 10-month-old? Is that something that, you know --

RUSKIN: What happens if she sold it? She could have sold the baby. They`re in financial -- well, listen if we`re looking at everything like I think Bill Stanton is --

HILL: Yes, of course.

RUSKIN: -- as good an investigator as he is, he is not taking a stand. He doesn`t know what happened yet. He would like to bring the child home alive, I am sure; or solve this case for the Kansas City Police Department or assist them in solving it.

But you know, they`re in financial trouble. They could very easily have sold this child.

HILL: Right now though, isn`t there a $100,000 reward?

RUSKIN: By an unnamed benefactor for --

HILL: Someone would say something; that`s big money.

RUSKIN: If they knew.

HILL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: All right. Tom, Rosemarie, thank you very much.

RUSKIN: Thank you.

HILL: We`ll be back in just a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next up, we`ll tell you why President Obama says he`s not a fan of the Kardashians.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Lindsay Lohan is back in the headlines just one day after a judge revoked probation. Joining me with all the details is Mike Walters, news manager for TMZ.

Mike, first she`s given this gift horse yet again. The judge says, you can go down and do some community service at the morgue, and she doesn`t show up on time. What happened next?

MIKE WALTERS, TMZ: Well, here`s what`s going on. So, she needed to be down at the L.A. County Morgue this morning at 8:00 a.m. Her lawyer inside the court said she`ll be there tomorrow, she called in advance, and, of course, what happened? She was late. And guess what, if you don`t show up on time to the morgue in the L.A. County coroner`s office, they throw you out. You`re not allowed to be there. So of course the worst way Lindsay could have tried to impress the judge and try to get out of the jail sentence that`s going to come her way, she screws it up.

HILL: Let me ask you something about that court appearance. What was with the make-up? When I first took a look at her, I thought she had been punched and had a bruised face. Now, this is a woman who`s been made up by professionals for years, and I was just sort of shocked that she looked that way.

WALTERS: Well, yes, me too. We were all shocked. I don`t know. She doesn`t have professionals doing it any more. So that`s one of the problems, probably. I don`t know, it looks like she just overdid it on the cheek area, and I don`t know. I actually thought it looked like bruising, but I`m not exactly sure what it was. It looked like bad make-up. So I don`t know, she should have gotten up earlier and done it herself and taken longer, just like she should have gotten up earlier this morning to be at the courthouse.

HILL: I know I am being absolutely petty and ridiculous commenting on her make-up, but it was the first thing I thought of, was that she was bruised and something had happened to her.

Anyway, back to what happened when she went over to the morgue. She had an excuse, and then she tweeted to the people who follow her, and what did she tell them?

WALTERS: Well, let me tell you her excuse first. The excuse was, I didn`t know where to pull in or how to get there. Wrong. Lindsay Lohan has been to the morgue before. She`s taken the class previously in the other DUI. So that`s not true. She tweeted that -- yes, sorry -- she tweeted that she apologizes about the confusion, but now she really needs therapy after all the stress. Well, guess what, Lindsay, you do need therapy. You`re actually ordered to go to therapy once a week for an hour. And you didn`t do that either. That`s why we had the hearing yesterday.

So I don`t know. I don`t know what`s up with this girl, and all that happens, I hear her parents on other news shows talking about it and no one`s helping this girl. She`s in dire need of somebody to straighten her life out and that`s not happening right now.

HILL: I know. I actually feel very, very sorry for her. Because she`s in a bad way, and then you have got her dad making it even worse. Explain to folks what this guy has done. It`s hard to even call him her dad, he says such horrible things. Tell them what he said.

WALTERS: Well, Michael Lohan, who I`ve talked to many times, and does seem like he wants to help his daughter now, did something yesterday I can`t believe. He went on a television show, a news show, and said that her teeth, which were really brown, there was a photo that came out where they looked really horrible, and he specifically said that he thought it was either from smoking crack or meth.

Here`s the problem. It`s a news show. Experts come on to talk about what happened. Michael Lohan is not an expert in drug abuse and what it does to your teeth. He might know about drugs -- I`m sure he does -- but he doesn`t know what it does to your teeth. They shouldn`t have kind of gone to him. He shouldn`t have talked about that, but I can`t believe he`s saying stuff like that. He shouldn`t be telling anyone that, even if he believes that or if it`s true, he shouldn`t be saying it as an expert. Here`s what`s wrong with her teeth.

HILL: Yes, pile on your daughter.

WALTERS: He should just be talking to her. You know what, he should try to be helping her, not talking to the press.

HILL: All right. Talk about helping her, you know Hollywood inside and out. If she gets her way through this, finds herself -- gets it back together, can she rehab her career? Because I would imagine that right now she`s such an insurance risk, that no one can work with her.

WALTERS: Right, you`re right. Nobody will ensure her for a movie. That`s definitely the first problem.

I will say this on the record, and we`re going to look back and you`re going to see this -- Lindsay Lohan will win an Oscar, 100 percent. I believe Lindsay Lohan is a good actress. She`s got the pedigree to do it. In 8 to 10 years from now, if she gets her head out of the clouds, sobers up, and starts to do what she`s supposed to do, Lindsay Lohan will wind up doing some biopic on Janis Joplin, and she`ll be that actress and she`ll get an Oscar. I`m telling you, she will do it, but she`s got to get beyond these petty, you know, problems that, including the courthouse, and big problems like addition. She`s got to get beyond it. She`ll get there.

HILL: She`s just thinking she`s the center of the universe. That being said, though, I agree with you. I hope that she gets it together. I`m not sure about the awards like that, but who knows. Mike, thanks so much.

WALTERS: OK, E.D.

HILL: Every time Lindsay Lohan gets booked, we get a new mugshot. This one is her fifth since 2007. Here now to talk about how those photos have progressed over the years and other pop culture stories in the news are comedian Tom Papa, host of "Come to Papa" on Sirius XM 99. Egypt Sherrod, television and radio host on 107.5 WBLS. And Noah Levy, senior editor, "In Touch Weekly."

All right, Tom, that little girl from "Parent Trap," the cute little freckles, the precious outfits, and all of a sudden we get all these mugshots.

TOM PAPA, COMEDIAN: I think she looks great.

HILL: Look at her, look at that face.

PAPA: Yes, I think she looks pretty good.

HILL: Did you see her in court?

PAPA: Yes, but you know, she does a lot of stuff and a lot of drugs, and she still looks that good. You know, if I have too much salt in a meal, I look like Louie Anderson the next day. She`s doing all right.

HILL: Egypt, what do you think about this?

EGYPT SHERROD, TV & RADIO HOST: I miss redhead Lindsay Lohan, to be honest with you. It`s such a shame to see a cute girl to what she is right now. I mean, she really needs to hibernate for a while.

HILL: You know, she`s been on the red carpet. She`s had her picture taken a million times. Don`t you think she`d be handling the whole publicity angle of this a bit better?

NOAH LEVY, SR. EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, definitely. She definitely should have been dressed properly. And I think in terms of her makeup, I mean, the shading on her cheeks changed the world. Everybody stopped talking and they noticed the brown bronzer on her cheeks. It was devastating.

PAPA: But that`s what she has to do. You can`t look -- you don`t want to look so clean, and then the judge sees you and is like, I`m going to throw you on the chain gang. She puts some stuff in the car on her face and comes in, makes the sad Nick Nolte face.

SHERROD: She was clearly hung over when she did that makeup job.

LEVY: She`s been at the Rocky Horror tribute show the night before, and just put on--

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let`s move on. President Obama, one of the few Americans apparently not keeping up with the Kardashians these days. The first lady says that the president doesn`t like his daughters to watch the show, because in essence, they`re bad influence. And what do we make of that? I think that they`ve actually done a pretty good job of raising those girls to be seemingly nice, normal kids.

PAPA: Yes, you might as well screw them up a little bit.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: One of the Kardashians said, hey, you know, if you watch our show, you learn about real life.

SHERROD: Listen, I enjoy the show, but I`m a grown woman. And let`s not mistake what some of the headlines are saying. They say the Obamas dissed the Kardashians. It really was Michelle Obama. She says she watches the show, so long as she can discuss it with her girls, decide what`s good and what`s bad.

HILL: What mom these days has enough time to watch a show like that, and then sit down and go, now let`s discuss those scenes.

(CROSSTALK)

PAPA: Yes, let`s discuss the bad parts.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: Michelle Obama is not talking about thongs with her little girls. That`s not happening.

HILL: I don`t think they`re letting the kids watch, and I think they just didn`t want to hurt their feelings any more.

PAPA: Yes, but you know, I`m a parent. I`m not going to show my kids pornography so they learn what not to do on a date. It`s true.

LEVY: I just think Michelle Obama wants to keep the Kardashians away from her husband. She knows how to keep her man. She does not want Kim in the White House trying to pull a Monica Lewinsky--

(CROSSTALK)

SHERROD: The Kardashians should just be happy the president knows who you are and he`s saying your name. Just spell my name right at the end of the day.

PAPA: Yes, you`re right. I mean, what`s wrong with the culture, if the culture was anything close to normal, it would be a show, "Follow the Obamas." Right? We`re following these -- it`s fun to see Bruce Jenner once in a while, though, see how he`s changing into Michael Jackson.

HILL: Well, I think that the girls are a little too old for Barbies these days, but did you see the latest Barbie? This one is kind of shocking.

PAPA: She`s hot.

HILL: Mattel is releasing a new Barbie designed by the fashion brand Toky-Doky (ph), featuring pink hair, a shirt with skull and crossbones, and check out the neck. No, that is not a necklace. That is tattoos. Lots of tattoos all around the neck, down the arm. This to me is like way over the top.

SHERROD: She looks like Rihanna.

HILL: Oh, and the back too! I hadn`t even seen that one.

LEVY: Didn`t Jesse James just date that girl? I mean, I thought it was modeled after Kat Von D.

HILL: Would you let your daughter play with that doll?

PAPA: Yes, I would, because you know, tattoos used to be on bikers and sailors and tough people. And now I pick my kids up at the school, at the dropoff and all that, and there are moms that look like that. They all have tattoos. It`s nerdy now to have a tattoo. The coolest guy in the room has a sweater vest and no tattoos.

You are now a badass.

LEVY: I am. They`re calling her square Barbie. Yes.

SHERROD: It doesn`t bother me. It`s a clear cut case of, if you don`t like it or think it`s appropriate for your kids, don`t buy it. The same thing with television. You don`t like the program, don`t watch it. Barbie has had 125 different careers since 1959. Why not tattoo artist?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERROD: Tattoo artist.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: Tattoos are intricate. My niece and nephews, 6 and 7, they already have a whole sleeve of tattoos, it`s fine.

PAPA: Yes, and some of them don`t come off for weeks.

HILL: Please tell me you`re joking.

LEVY: I`m kidding. I`m kidding.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You were going to get a whole segment by yourself.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: They have a whole sleeve of tattoos, piercings.

SHERROD: Do you have a tattoo?

HILL: No, I don`t have a tattoo.

(CROSSTALK)

PAPA: I do. It`s an awful one I got when I was 20. It`s on my leg, and it`s a gnome.

HILL: It`s a gnome?

PAPA: He has got a magic hat and stars and --

HILL: You`ve got a tattoo, I want to see it.

PAPA: It`s not -- I can`t. It`s so embarrassing.

HILL: OK, during the commercial break?

PAPA: Maybe.

HILL: And then I`ll tell you what happened, right after this.

PAPA: It`s embarrassing. So bad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Yes, I looked. You bet, he pulled up his pant leg, take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Come on, show it.

PAPA: It`s only because I love you.

HILL: There it is, it is a gnome. That`s what you find out.

PAPA: The original tattoo, he was watering a pot plant. I was like, no, even high I was like, I can`t do that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: We`re the total square old ladies over here.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Speaking of somebody who is very popular, Rihanna, and she just has a new video, came out for a song. It not only features an abusive relationship with a Chris Brown look-alike, but also a scene with a heated argument in a car. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: OK. It seems to me like she`s making a buck off of something that was traumatic in her life and traumatic in the lives of a lot of women.

SHERROD: It`s no doubt about it when you watch the video, capitalization at its finest. You know, they know everyone`s going to come to this conclusion it`s about Chris Brown. And guess what -- music and videos are supposed to -- what? Provoke and evoke, provoke conversation, evoke emotion, it is exactly what it is.

HILL: She`s brilliant.

LEVY: She is brilliant, she knew how to get people to watch her video. And Chris Brown was so upset that he was not cast to play himself, he actually threw his chair through a window of "Good Morning America."

HILL: Here`s a problem I think that we all would like to have. You know, the last time that I came into work, and I was told sorry, you can`t keep your job, you just look way too sexy. Never happened. Never happened to me. Never-ever. It did happen, though, to Scarlett Johansson.

PAPA: Right. Yes. Yes. Yes.

HILL: Do you remember this?

PAPA: Yes. The girl in the movie.

HILL: Yeah, right. It`s "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo," speaking of tattoos ...

PAPA: Right.

HILL: And they said they were thinking about casting her, but no, she`s too sexy.

PAPA: I believe it.

HILL: You do?

PAPA: Yes. I was going to be in the movie ...

HILL: It`s Hollywood, I thought that was the whole thing.

PAPA: I was going to be in a movie once and they saw the gnome on my leg, and they were like, no, this is too hot. Yes.

SHERROD: I mean, that`s the best way to get rejected if nothing else. Too sexy?

PAPA: Yeah.

SHERROD: But Scarlet Johansson would be sexy if she shaved her head bald and wrapped herself in toilet paper ...

PAPA: It`s true.

SHERROD: She`s just a beautiful woman.

HILL: OK. What about the girl who got it, Rooney Mara?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: She -- right, yeah, go to the -- you say, I got the job, because I`m really not sexy at all.

PAPA: Yeah.

HILL: That is a bad picture of her, I`ve got to say. She`s truly a beautiful girl.

LEVY: She is, but Scarlet Johansson, I think they wanted something a little less vavavavoom. But she actually showed up to the audition wearing nothing but a dragon tattoo. And that is when they said this is definitely too sexy.

PAPA: It`s the great way to break up with the girl, by the way.

HILL: That`s -- that`s the picture of Rooney right there. That`s what she normally looks like. But you know what she did -- she got piercings and all sorts of stuff to do this role.

SHERROD: She really dove into the character.

HILL: She did.

SHERROD: Maybe Scarlett couldn`t. Maybe the dragon tattoo -- she should have gotten a gnome tattoo.

HILL: She should have ...

SHERROD: If she had a gnome tattoo, she would have kept the role.

LEVY: But saying you`re too sexy is like me saying to you, you know, it`s not you, it`s me. It`s still -- it`s kind of a weird dis.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: I mean do you really mean it?

HILL: Absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: OK.

PAPA: She looks like the hot Barbie, by the way.

HILL: By the way, that`s a collector`s item for adults, that`s what they say.

PAPA: It`s just for adults. So kids aren`t going to play with it.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: M.C. Hammer -- we all remember him, right? Can`t touch this. He is launching a search engine. You know, when you`re on your laptop, instead of Google ...

PAPA: What happened to my career?

HILL: Yeah, it`s called Wiredo (ph). And he went to Silicon Valley, he apparently researched this for two years, and he launches a Web search engine. How is that for weird career turns.

SHERROD: A failed music career -- He`s still too legit to quit?

PAPA: Yes, he is too legit to quit.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: That guy could move.

PAPA: It was awesome.

HILL: And those pants.

LEVY: He had the best moves. But now Vanilla Ice is suing him because he said that was my idea.

PAPA: Is he really?

LEVY: No, I wish. I wish ...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: What do you call those pants , by the way? Are those diaper pants?

PAPA: No, those are Hammer pants. Those were Hammer pants. He was so big with those pants that they were called other things and now they`re just Hammer pants.

SHERROD: Yeah, that is a trend I hope never ever comes back in style, though.

PAPA: Very nice.

HILL: I know. But MC Hammer you would think would be doing something -- I don`t know, if you`re going to make a career comeback ...

PAPA: Yes.

HILL: ... Don`t all musicians try to come back and do a concert tour or do something in the ...

PAPA: Do well.

HILL: -- as producers or directors -- something like that.

SHERROD: It`s too late for him.

PAPA: No, no, no. It`s not too late. This is the first step. No, he`ll do the -- he`ll do the search engine, that will fail.

HILL: Oh, it`s still not the Hammer pants.

PAPA: He`ll have a drug habit, then he`ll go on tour.

LEVY: Yes.

PAPA: He`s got to have -- he has got to fall off the cliff with the drug addiction. We`ve all seen "Behind the Music." He has got to have a drug addiction, then he comes back ...

LEVY: He needs to find God, come out of the closet.

PAPA: Yes.

LEVY: Be bankrupt again.

HILL: And he`s popular.

(CROSSTALK)

PAPA: Yes, in the documentaries like, I don`t know what I was thinking, I was on crack when I was doing that search engine.

HILL: We all know the true secret to success, and that`s the gnome tattoo.

PAPA: I agree.

HILL: The things you learn.

PAPA: Yeah. But if you want to be too sexy, do you want to be too sexy? That`s what you have to ask yourself.

HILL: You are. Tom, Egypt Sherrod and Noah, thank you very much for joining us. Always entertaining. We`ll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: We want to talk about overachievers, they`ll drive you nuts. This guy is the creator of tae bo, a seven time karate world champion. He sold over 100 million videos. So, if there`s one man who can help us get all into shape, it`s fitness expert and tae-bo king, Billy Blanks. Welcome to the show!

BILLY BLANKS, FITNESS EXPERT: Thank you, glad to be here.

HILL: All right. I`m going to talk about your product real quick -- because -- because it`s great, and clearly you are very successful, but people at home, they don`t have a product, can still learn from you, and that`s why we love having you here.

BLANKS: Well, thank you.

HILL: You`ve got this thing, it`s called "PT 24/7" and if you`re like me, I know, we`re all like, we hate dieting, we hate exercising, really, unless you are strange, and this is terrific (inaudible) going through it. You`ve got rest days. Why is it important to have days off?

BLANKS: To recover and give yourself a chance to rest from the hard work that you do. And I think once you learn how to give yourself a rest day, than you can go back to your workout. You pull a lot more into a workout.

HILL: Is it kind of like the plateau? You plateau, and if you -- you certainly need a break.

BLANKS: Well, I think the person -- the only time a person plateaus is when they don`t eat properly. But I don`t think a person can ever plateau from working out.

HILL: OK, that`s one thing I don`t get. You know, we have better access to low fat, low cal, low everything meals, and snacks than ever before in our history, and we`re fatter than ever before. Why?

BLANKS: Well, I think a lot of people don`t exercise, you know I think a lot of people think this eating by itself can help them get to where they need to go. But I think exercising gives a person a chance to learn how to communicate with your body -- and when you start communicating with your body, you start empower yourself, and then it makes you really want to work out.

HILL: What I like is that I hate -- I`ve spent a lot of money on those workout videos, and I, you know, crack the case open and that`s about it. What I like is that you can get some of your videos for like seven bucks. This is more expensive because it has got all the gizmos as well. But it`s great to know that you can do something at home, because how many people really have the time -- if you`re raising kids and doing everything else, to get out and go to the gym and pay those fees that are crazy. So, if you`re at home, I can`t afford your stuff, what I can I do to lose weight?

BLANKS: Well, you can do -- you can do a lot of things, you know, put on music that you like, it could be five minutes, ten minutes, piece if music that you like, sit down in a chair, you`re going to exercise sitting down in a chair, you`re going to do knee raises, sitting in a chair. You can basically do everything. You can take two water bottles, use it for shoulder presses, arm presses, you can basically change yourself if you really want to.

HILL: Is it more important for us to do something physically active, like burn calories, or to be lifting something with resistance, weights?

BLANKS: I think resistance helps you burn fat faster than just normal -- using your own body. But when you start picking up staff and you have a little bit of weight in your hands, it burns more fat. It gives you a little more principle too about what to do.

HILL: So be real honest with me, if you want to lose weight, how many minutes a day do you really need to be working out?

BLANKS: I think a person needs to at least work out 30 minutes a day -- between 10 to 30 minutes a day.

HILL: Gosh, I was hoping you would say ten, instead of 30.

BLANKS: Ten, 30 minutes a day -- I think you need to do that.

HILL: OK. Thank you. Billy, make sure you check out this latest work out kit. It`s called PT 24/7. Stick around. "Showbiz Tonight" is next. The latest on the Kardashians feud with the first lady. I`m E. D. Hill. Thank you for watching. Good night.

END