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Michael Jackson Death Trial; Moms and Dads Who Drink

Aired October 21, 2011 -   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, as the prosecution in the Conrad Murray trial wraps its case, the defense tries to buy more time since their theory that Michael Jackson gave himself the fatal dose of Propofol was shot down. Is the defense just stalling?

Then Lindsay Lohan`s probation was revoked and that means more jail time is looming. We`ll look at what`s in store for the troubled starlet.

Plus we uncover the secret lives of women, why some wives say cheating saved their marriage.

That and more starting right now.

E.D. HILL, HLN GUEST HOST: The prosecution has rested in the Michael Jackson death trial. Will the defense now put Conrad Murray on the stand? Joining me to talk about this is Yale Galanter, O.J. Simpson`s former attorney; and Jim Moret, attorney and chief correspondent for "Inside Edition".

Jim, you`re at the court house. The prosecution put on a pretty good show there. What do you think were the best points they made?

JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": I think the best point was really the last point. That was the culmination of all the testimony we`ve heard so far. And that was a doctor who`s an expert in Propofol walking the jury bit by bit through this very complicated story. And don`t forget the fact that this doctor went through medical school for years to learn about the use of medications and he made it simple for the jury to understand.

He gave the jury a narrative that they can appreciate and he walked them step by step for 17 different areas where the doctors said these were egregious errors. Any one of them could have killed Michael Jackson and basically the culmination of the prosecution`s theory is any one of these things did and could have killed Michael Jackson and the defendant, Conrad Murray is solely responsible for Michael Jackson`s death.

Michael Jackson did not have to die and would not be dead but for the actions or inactions of Conrad Murray. I think that that`s really what the whole crux of this case is about. It doesn`t mean that Conrad Murray is a bad person. It doesn`t even mean he`s a bad doctor in general but he was a bad doctor here.

HILL: Wait a second. That doctor listed a number of things he said that Dr. Murray did wrong. First, administered toxic anesthetics without proper monitoring equipment, failed to keep medical records, left the room, incompetently administered CPR. Yale, this certainly sounds like malpractice but is it manslaughter?

YALE GALANTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think it is manslaughter. And I think you hit the nail on the head. We have laws -- there are civil laws. People go to civil court. Doctors make mistakes all the time. Doctors screw up all the time; sometimes when they screw up so badly, people die. It`s unfortunate but that`s why we have a civil system of laws to compensate people with money.

The real issue here is did his is malpractice rise to the level of criminal negligence so that we should deprive him of his liberty and I say no.

HILL: All right. Jim --

MORET: I disagree.

HILL: Tell me why.

MORET: I disagree because it`s not just failure to keep medical records, it`s the fact that he got the Propofol for Michael Jackson. He agreed. His first error was saying yes to Michael Jackson, sure, I`ll get you what you ask for. The doctor should have said, no, you need a medical check-up, you`ve got a sleep problem. I`m not a sleep doctor. I`m not an anesthesiologist.

Yale, I agree with you that in general this is a civil issue and in general it`s a medical board issue. But the things that -- I think the things that Dr. Murray did in this case rose to a level of criminal negligence. And I defer to you because you`re an amazing attorney and I would call you if I`m in trouble.

But I think that in this case, Conrad Murray is really facing the battle for his life.

HILL: Yale, do they have to focus this now, the defense, they focus this on Michael Jackson? Because I believe that one of their arguments is, hey, he had other stuff in his system that we weren`t a part of. Does Dr. Murray have to have his team really go after Michael?

GALANTER: Yes. Unfortunately, they do. They have to attack Michael`s credibility, if you will. I mean let`s remember, the day before Michael passed away, the country had a totally different mindset towards Michael Jackson than they do now. I mean everybody knows that he abused drugs. Everybody knows he lived on the edge.

The defense now has to put Michael on trial, challenge him and say, listen, Michael Jackson was not totally up front with his doctor. He didn`t let Conrad Murray know all the drugs he was on. There were a number of things that found in his system that Conrad Murray didn`t know about. But for that, Conrad Murray would not have done what he did.

HILL: You know, during the prosecution`s phase up there, they brought up this anesthesiologist, a toxicologist, a forensic pathologist, all these people, looking at test results and it shows. How many versions of test results can you have? Because I believe that the defense is going to bring up their own toxicologist and forensic pathologists and all their experts.

GALANTER: Well, it depends on what you`re focusing on. The defense is obviously going to focus on the fact that Propofol was found in Michael Jackson`s stomach. Now, all the experts agree that the only way that that Propofol could have gotten into his stomach is if Michael Jackson ingested it himself. If Michael Jackson is drinking Propofol, what else was he doing while Dr. Murray wasn`t in sight or didn`t see?

So you know, you obviously have a patient who`s not doing everything or explaining everything to the doctor. I think the defense really needs to focus in on that.

HILL: Jim, what do you think that they will be doing to try to show that Dr. Murray was being a good doctor. He may have had some slip-ups but he`s a good doctor and he`s just had an out-of-control patient?

MORET: Well, I think that they`re going to be bringing up former patients of Dr. Murray, frankly, to say he saved my life. He did things that other doctors wouldn`t have done, that found things no other doctor did and I`m here because of Dr. Murray. They`re going to be trying to rehabilitate this man who has been destroyed on the stand through a number of other witnesses.

But I think that what Yale says -- you know I would take issue with one thing, Yale. I think the fact that Dr. Murray agreed to work for Michael Jackson as his sole patient for $150,000 a month, this doctor, it was incumbent upon him to make sure he knew everything Michael Jackson was taking. You don`t walk out of the room leaving him with medications that he could ostensibly take himself.

I think that it doesn`t matter if Michael Jackson drank Propofol, which I think the prosecution will say it doesn`t matter anyway because it was Propofol in his blood that killed him, not the Propofol in his stomach. But I think it doesn`t matter if Michael Jackson did inject himself with a lethal dose.

The fact is Conrad Murray enabled Michael Jackson to do so by leaving him in the room. And I think that -- that abandonment is going to come back to haunt Dr. Murray. And I think the defense is going to have a tough time rehabilitating this guy.

HILL: Yale, Jim brought up the character witnesses. Based on your expertise and you certainly had to represent some people who were not well- liked -- O.J. Simpson -- do those character witnesses sway a jury?

GALANTER: They could. I mean listen, by all accounts, Conrad Murray is a good guy. And as Jim said and I agree with most of the things he said, he may even be a good doctor. The real issue here, which nobody has said is why is this criminal? What makes this a criminal offense that when you take somebody`s --

HILL: What is it that takes it across the line?

GALANTER: It`s this term that hasn`t really been well-defined in the law, called criminal negligence. It`s negligence of such a degree that you would impugn criminal conduct because of it.

And that`s really the problem here. From my point of view, as a criminal defense lawyer, why is this criminal? Why isn`t he being sanctioned with not being able to work again as a physician with a monetary judgment? Why are we taking away his liberty? Did he have any ill will, did he have any spite, did he have any malice towards Michael Jackson? By all account, he loved Michael Jackson, he was Michael Jackson`s friend.

Now that`s what got him in trouble because he didn`t realize that he`s the professional and Michael Jackson was the patient; and there Jim`s 100 percent right. He should have never left the room. He should have had the correct monitoring equipment. He should have never been administering Propofol in the home. All negligence, all below the standard of care of a doctor in that community.

But what about that conduct is criminal? We`re a society of laws. We`ve been living together with a set of laws for 200 years.

HILL: And more and more of them every day.

GALANTER: And we have civil laws and criminal laws. We should only put the most egregious crimes in prison and the most egregious people in prison. I don`t think Conrad Murray comes up to that standard.

HILL: So Jim, Yale seems to agree. You have a lot of different things that you could put together but just one of them their own doesn`t seem to do it. Do you think that that`s what the prosecution is hoping, that the jury will take it all in totality and say, the whole thing was of such egregious nature that he`s guilty?

MORET: I think if the jury takes half of it into consideration, they could come away feeling like, look, what he did was so egregious, you don`t need to show malice this case, you just need to show negligence rising to a level of criminality. And I would suggest that in effect, this doctor was an employee, not a doctor. He was taking money to pump Michael Jackson up with exactly what Michael Jackson asked for, Propofol, very specifically. He didn`t take precautions, one after another. And the fact that you come away with knowing or believing, as the prosecution wants you to believe, and maybe I suggest Yale perhaps doesn`t, but Michael Jackson would be alive but for this doctor. That`s a powerful argument.

HILL: It certainly is. Jim Moret, Yale Galanter, thank you very much.

GALANTER: Thanks E.D.

HILL: We`ll be right back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come. Could cheating actually help a marriage? We`ll take a glimpse inside the secret lives of wives.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Well Baby Lisa`s mom, Deborah Bradley, raised a lot of eyebrows when she admitted that she was drunk and potentially even blacked out the night that her baby daughter went missing. This is how she defended herself on Fox News, Monday. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH BRADLEY, BABY LISA`S MOTHER: She was sleeping. You know I don`t see the problem with me having my grown-up time. I take good care of my kids. I keep my house clean. I do their laundry, I kiss their boo- boos, I fix them food, I`m involved in their school stuff. I mean to me, there`s nothing wrong with me doing what I want to do after dark.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: I don`t know about you. I was just furious after I heard that. Maybe I`m being too judgmental. But I`m like, grown-up times doesn`t necessarily mean -- especially if you`re a mom with a sleeping baby -- that that means it`s a free pass to go get drunk and possibly black out. It drove me crazy.

Here to talk about this and tell me that I`m wrong: Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and a marriage and family therapist; and Rachael Brownell, author of "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore" that book right there. Thanks both for joining us. Bethany --

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.

HILL: Is my reaction just out in the boonies?

MARSHALL: E.D., I happen to agree with you. This is a bad, bad mommy. And when I listened to this interview she says there`s nothing wrong with grown-up time. I hear all the characteristics of an addict, because that`s a rational -- a rationalization, right?

So what do addicts do, they rationalize, they have lack of insight into possible negative, destructive consequences to their action. They think nothing bad is going to happen. They feel victimized by the life and by the world. And this might be why we think that she needed to take a break from the interview processes, is that she felt victimized by the police.

But this mommy, after the fact, her baby is missing, possibly deceased, says there`s nothing wrong with grown-up times, she`s deep into her disease.

HILL: And that grown-up time equates with getting a box of wine and sitting there and drinking it until you possibly, and you don`t even know for sure, may have blacked out.

Rachael, thank you for joining us because you really can help us, help me understand this other side and where this woman is coming from. You are so open and so frank in your book. What -- what is it about this mom that she is doing right now? Help me explain. You -- you say that you used to call yourself, what was it, cocktail momma?

RACHAEL BROWNELL, AUTHOR, "MOMMY DOESN`T DRINK HERE ANYMORE": Yes, definitely. And I understand, you know, I can certainly understand the -- the reaction that what the heck is she doing? Her baby is missing and she`s passed out and saying that`s ok because she also does laundry.

But, you know, I think it`s important to point out that grown-up time for many people just means it`s time to sit down and have a glass of tea and read a book or have one glass of wine or something. And I -- I think she`s using something that`s socially acceptable that sort of concept of your kids are in bed and you`re taking it easy. And kind of -- you know she does sound like she is rationalizing a little bit.

On the other hand, it`s always easy to pile on the mom in cases like this. And you know we don`t really know what was happening there and we don`t know the full story. I can tell you that it`s always a little more complicated than it first appears when it comes to moms and addiction.

HILL: And you -- you certainly -- you certainly understand that. Help -- help me understand.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: We are piling --

HILL: Yes, go ahead.

MARSHALL: We are piling on the mom because she says there is nothing wrong with grown-up time and her baby is missing. We`re not talking the fact that her baby just had a minor accident or a toddler fell down and skinned its knees and now the child is in the hospital. Her child is missing and she`s saying there is nothing wrong. That`s a very serious thing.

HILL: Yes. We`re watching the video right now of the store clip where she`s buying this box of wine that she then takes home.

Rachael --

BROWNELL: Right.

HILL: -- you know, she -- she is clearly a woman who`s going through a lot in her life. She`s married.

BROWNELL: Right. Right.

HILL: Estranged from her husband. I believe that they are in the process of getting a divorce. She has a child by him. That child is living with her. Her boyfriend also has a child with another woman. That child is living with him. And now they have this child, the boyfriend and Bradley have this child together. There`s a lot on her plate.

BROWNELL: Sure.

HILL: Do women -- I mean help me understand how women like yourself just sort of find yourself kind of going down that path, where you don`t even realize it but all of a sudden, you`re drinking way too much.

BROWNELL: Well, and I -- I would like to respond to Bethany. I certainly understand, you know I certainly understand piling on the mom where the baby`s missing and she`s blacked out. That I get. And of course everyone -- everyone understands that; that`s why this is such a, you know, riveting story.

But what`s true for a lot of us, what was true for me, is that I started out as kind of a normal drinker. I could have a glass of wine a night. And it`s not like one day you wake up and you`re drinking a whole bottle and you see the whole progression.

HILL: Right.

BROWNELL: And of course there are warning signs. And I think the difference between someone in recovery from alcoholism and someone who is not is that series of denials. And they are either broken by a DUI or something terrible happened to your child or someone else does an intervention.

But a lot of us can go along, when everyone else can see that we have a problem, we don`t see it. And so it`s not just a moral you know it`s not a moral failing.

HILL: Yes.

BROWNELL: It`s an inability to see ourselves, because right we -- we used to drink normally and now we don`t and we don`t realize it.

HILL: Yes, Rachael that`s a very good point. Because I don`t think that there`s anybody who -- who goes to bed one night thinking I want to be an alcoholic when I wake up in the morning or I want to be a drug addict.

BROWNELL: Exactly, it sounds like great. Yes.

HILL: Yes but at the same time, Bethany there are lots of adults around here.

(CROSSTALK)

MARSHALL: Yes, where are the caretakers? Where is the family?

HILL: Right.

MARSHALL: Where are the grandparents during this time? We saw with Casey and George -- Cindy and George Anthony that they preserved the child`s room hoping that the child would come home. This family has dismantled the child`s room.

And I want to make a comment about the children. She said it was grown-up time. We know that from studies of adult, children of alcoholics that when children are around an adult who drinks too much, it`s enormously overwhelming and anxiety-producing for them and they grow into adults who take inordinate responsibility for everybody around them. They are control freaks. They can`t trust anything that`s not under their control. And it`s a massive defense against the helplessness of childhood.

And I don`t think we can compare a mother who has a normal progression of drinking too much with this mom who clearly was binge drinking with benzodiazepines which caused a major black-out.

HILL: Bethany and Rachael, we have got to take a break.

BROWNELL: Thank you.

HILL: But you know, if you think that this is bad, you are going to - - not even believe your eyes, video that is hard to even understand. That`s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Welcome back.

I`m rejoined by my panel: Bethany Marshall, a psychoanalyst and marriage and family therapist; and also Rachael Brownell, she`s the author of "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore".

It`s shocking to me, Baby Lisa`s mom not the only drinking parent in the news. There is this Michigan dad -- here`s a video from it -- he`s facing child abuse charges after forcing his 9-year-old daughter to drive the van because he`s allegedly drunk in the passenger`s seat.

And get this, right there, he`s in the convenience store buying the liquor, buying the cigarettes, telling the guy there, this is my designated driver, pointing to his 9-year-old daughter. The guy at the convenience store doesn`t do a thing. It takes somebody who just happens to be outside and sees this to call the police and say, by the way, there`s a 9-year-old driving her dad around in a van.

How can you even come close to understanding what`s going on here? Bethany, tell me, why did it take a stranger rather than a store clerk to stop this guy or to call the police?

MARSHALL: Because the store clerk bought into the rationalization. We were talking about rationalizations before. This is the ultimate rationalization, this guy saying, he`s saying I`m not a bad guy for being drunk and out at 3:00 in the morning and relegating all the responsibility to my 9-year-old. I`m a good guy because I have now found a designated driver.

This guy is rearranging reality with his words. The store clerk bought into it. Thank God the other driver called 911.

And you know one more thing real quickly. Children who are raised by alcoholics feel enormously helpless.

HILL: Yes.

MARSHALL: And because of that, they defend against it by feeling useful and powerful and in charge. This little girl may have felt that she was protecting daddy. And that`s how he got her to do it.

HILL: I think that children of addicts in general are forced to grow up and take on roles that they are absolutely not prepared for.

Rachael though, here is this dad -- the same thing with Bradley. She`s saying, I need my grown-up time. Clearly, she didn`t realize to herself or acknowledging to herself, that it`s just not acceptable and it`s not normal to get drunk and pass out when you`re at home with your kids.

BROWNELL: Right.

HILL: But here`s this guy doing the same thing. What goes on in their mind. How do they not see what is so obvious?

BROWNELL: Well, this is late stage untreated alcoholism. This is what happens. And if you`re in recovery and you sit with people at meetings, these stories, as horrible as they are, they happen time and time again because people are ill. Their minds are not clear. They`re addled with booze and drugs and God knows what else. And they cannot see straight and they cannot think clearly, which is why the courts get involved and they should. They should. But this is what late stage alcoholism looks like.

HILL: As I said, you wrote a very raw and honest book about this. When you were drunk with your kids, what was the worst thing that happened?

BROWNELL: I think, you know, we were talking earlier about, you know, rationalizations and what happens. And one of the things that broke through my denial was an afternoon, a summer afternoon I was watching the kids and I was having some wine spritzers. And I turned my back and my little 2-year-old darling girl started to go under in the little pool. It`s a little kiddie pool but she was spluttering.

My reaction time was so slow, you know, I pulled her out and she was coughing and she ended up being fine but that was one of those warning signs that told me, this is no longer ok. This is no longer mommy`s little grown-up time.

HILL: Yes. Ok. Rachael again, it`s a great book. It`s called "Mommy Doesn`t Drink Here Anymore". And Bethany Marshall, thank you both. Thank you for your time and helping us understand what really is truly out of the ordinary and almost incomprehensible.

We`ll be right back.

BROWNELL: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: Lindsay Lohan is back in the headlines just one day after a judge revoked probation. Joining me with all the details is Mike Walters, news manager for TMZ.

Mike, first she`s given this gift horse yet again. The judge says, you can go down and do some community service at the morgue, and she doesn`t show up on time. What happened next?

MIKE WALTERS, TMZ: Well, here`s what`s going on. So, she needed to be down at the L.A. County Morgue this morning at 8:00 a.m. Her lawyer inside the court said she`ll be there tomorrow, she called in advance, and, of course, what happened? She was late. And guess what, if you don`t show up on time to the morgue in the L.A. County coroner`s office, they throw you out. You`re not allowed to be there. So of course the worst way Lindsay could have tried to impress the judge and try to get out of the jail sentence that`s going to come her way, she screws it up.

HILL: Let me ask you something about that court appearance. What was with the make-up? When I first took a look at her, I thought she had been punched and had a bruised face. Now, this is a woman who`s been made up by professionals for years, and I was just sort of shocked that she looked that way.

WALTERS: Well, yes, me too. We were all shocked. I don`t know. She doesn`t have professionals doing it any more. So that`s one of the problems, probably. I don`t know, it looks like she just overdid it on the cheek area, and I don`t know. I actually thought it looked like bruising, but I`m not exactly sure what it was. It looked like bad make-up. So I don`t know, she should have gotten up earlier and done it herself and taken longer, just like she should have gotten up earlier this morning to be at the courthouse.

HILL: I know I am being absolutely petty and ridiculous commenting on her make-up, but it was the first thing I thought of, was that she was bruised and something had happened to her.

Anyway, back to what happened when she went over to the morgue. She had an excuse, and then she tweeted to the people who follow her, and what did she tell them?

WALTERS: Well, let me tell you her excuse first. The excuse was, I didn`t know where to pull in or how to get there. Wrong. Lindsay Lohan has been to the morgue before. She`s taken the class previously in the other DUI. So that`s not true. She tweeted that -- yes, sorry -- she tweeted that she apologizes about the confusion, but now she really needs therapy after all the stress. Well, guess what, Lindsay, you do need therapy. You`re actually ordered to go to therapy once a week for an hour. And you didn`t do that either. That`s why we had the hearing yesterday.

So I don`t know. I don`t know what`s up with this girl, and all that happens, I hear her parents on other news shows talking about it and no one`s helping this girl. She`s in dire need of somebody to straighten her life out and that`s not happening right now.

HILL: I know. I actually feel very, very sorry for her. Because she`s in a bad way, and then you have got her dad making it even worse. Explain to folks what this guy has done. It`s hard to even call him her dad, he says such horrible things. Tell them what he said.

WALTERS: Well, Michael Lohan, who I`ve talked to many times, and does seem like he wants to help his daughter now, did something yesterday I can`t believe. He went on a television show, a news show, and said that her teeth, which were really brown, there was a photo that came out where they looked really horrible, and he specifically said that he thought it was either from smoking crack or meth.

Here`s the problem. It`s a news show. Experts come on to talk about what happened. Michael Lohan is not an expert in drug abuse and what it does to your teeth. He might know about drugs -- I`m sure he does -- but he doesn`t know what it does to your teeth. They shouldn`t have kind of gone to him. He shouldn`t have talked about that, but I can`t believe he`s saying stuff like that. He shouldn`t be telling anyone that, even if he believes that or if it`s true, he shouldn`t be saying it as an expert. Here`s what`s wrong with her teeth.

HILL: Yes, pile on your daughter.

WALTERS: He should just be talking to her. You know what, he should try to be helping her, not talking to the press.

HILL: All right. Talk about helping her, you know Hollywood inside and out. If she gets her way through this, finds herself -- gets it back together, can she rehab her career? Because I would imagine that right now she`s such an insurance risk, that no one can work with her.

WALTERS: Right, you`re right. Nobody will ensure her for a movie. That`s definitely the first problem.

I will say this on the record, and we`re going to look back and you`re going to see this -- Lindsay Lohan will win an Oscar, 100 percent. I believe Lindsay Lohan is a good actress. She`s got the pedigree to do it. In 8 to 10 years from now, if she gets her head out of the clouds, sobers up, and starts to do what she`s supposed to do, Lindsay Lohan will wind up doing some biopic on Janis Joplin, and she`ll be that actress and she`ll get an Oscar. I`m telling you, she will do it, but she`s got to get beyond these petty, you know, problems that, including the courthouse, and big problems like addition. She`s got to get beyond it. She`ll get there.

HILL: She`s just thinking she`s the center of the universe. That being said, though, I agree with you. I hope that she gets it together. I`m not sure about the awards like that, but who knows. Mike, thanks so much.

WALTERS: OK, E.D.

HILL: Every time Lindsay Lohan gets booked, we get a new mugshot. This one is her fifth since 2007. Here now to talk about how those photos have progressed over the years and other pop culture stories in the news are comedian Tom Papa, host of "Come to Papa" on Sirius XM 99. Egypt Sherrod, television and radio host on 107.5 WBLS. And Noah Levy, senior editor, "In Touch Weekly."

All right, Tom, that little girl from "Parent Trap," the cute little freckles, the precious outfits, and all of a sudden we get all these mugshots.

TOM PAPA, COMEDIAN: I think she looks great.

HILL: Look at her, look at that face.

PAPA: Yes, I think she looks pretty good.

HILL: Did you see her in court?

PAPA: Yes, but you know, she does a lot of stuff and a lot of drugs, and she still looks that good. You know, if I have too much salt in a meal, I look like Louie Anderson the next day. She`s doing all right.

HILL: Egypt, what do you think about this?

EGYPT SHERROD, TV & RADIO HOST: I miss redhead Lindsay Lohan, to be honest with you. It`s such a shame to see a cute girl to what she is right now. I mean, she really needs to hibernate for a while.

HILL: You know, she`s been on the red carpet. She`s had her picture taken a million times. Don`t you think she`d be handling the whole publicity angle of this a bit better?

NOAH LEVY, SR. EDITOR, "IN TOUCH WEEKLY": Well, definitely. She definitely should have been dressed properly. And I think in terms of her makeup, I mean, the shading on her cheeks changed the world. Everybody stopped talking and they noticed the brown bronzer on her cheeks. It was devastating.

PAPA: But that`s what she has to do. You can`t look -- you don`t want to look so clean, and then the judge sees you and is like, I`m going to throw you on the chain gang. She puts some stuff in the car on her face and comes in, makes the sad Nick Nolte face.

SHERROD: She was clearly hung over when she did that makeup job.

LEVY: She`s been at the Rocky Horror tribute show the night before, and just put on--

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let`s move on. President Obama, one of the few Americans apparently not keeping up with the Kardashians these days. The first lady says that the president doesn`t like his daughters to watch the show, because in essence, they`re bad influence. And what do we make of that? I think that they`ve actually done a pretty good job of raising those girls to be seemingly nice, normal kids.

PAPA: Yes, you might as well screw them up a little bit.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: One of the Kardashians said, hey, you know, if you watch our show, you learn about real life.

SHERROD: Listen, I enjoy the show, but I`m a grown woman. And let`s not mistake what some of the headlines are saying. They say the Obamas dissed the Kardashians. It really was Michelle Obama. She says she watches the show, so long as she can discuss it with her girls, decide what`s good and what`s bad.

HILL: What mom these days has enough time to watch a show like that, and then sit down and go, now let`s discuss those scenes.

(CROSSTALK)

PAPA: Yes, let`s discuss the bad parts.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: Michelle Obama is not talking about thongs with her little girls. That`s not happening.

HILL: I don`t think they`re letting the kids watch, and I think they just didn`t want to hurt their feelings any more.

PAPA: Yes, but you know, I`m a parent. I`m not going to show my kids pornography so they learn what not to do on a date. It`s true.

LEVY: I just think Michelle Obama wants to keep the Kardashians away from her husband. She knows how to keep her man. She does not want Kim in the White House trying to pull a Monica Lewinsky--

(CROSSTALK)

SHERROD: The Kardashians should just be happy the president knows who you are and he`s saying your name. Just spell my name right at the end of the day.

PAPA: Yes, you`re right. I mean, what`s wrong with the culture, if the culture was anything close to normal, it would be a show, "Follow the Obamas." Right? We`re following these -- it`s fun to see Bruce Jenner once in a while, though, see how he`s changing into Michael Jackson.

HILL: Well, I think that the girls are a little too old for Barbies these days, but did you see the latest Barbie? This one is kind of shocking.

PAPA: She`s hot.

HILL: Mattel is releasing a new Barbie designed by the fashion brand Toky-Doky (ph), featuring pink hair, a shirt with skull and crossbones, and check out the neck. No, that is not a necklace. That is tattoos. Lots of tattoos all around the neck, down the arm. This to me is like way over the top.

SHERROD: She looks like Rihanna.

HILL: Oh, and the back too! I hadn`t even seen that one.

LEVY: Didn`t Jesse James just date that girl? I mean, I thought it was modelled after Kat Von D.

HILL: Would you let your daughter play with that doll?

PAPA: Yes, I would, because you know, tattoos used to be on bikers and sailors and tough people. And now I pick my kids up at the school, at the dropoff and all that, and there are moms that look like that. They all have tattoos. It`s nerdy now to have a tattoo. The coolest guy in the room has a sweater vest and no tattoos.

You are now a badass.

LEVY: I am. They`re calling her square Barbie. Yes.

SHERROD: It doesn`t bother me. It`s a clear cut case of, if you don`t like it or think it`s appropriate for your kids, don`t buy it. The same thing with television. You don`t like the program, don`t watch it. Barbie has had 125 different careers since 1959. Why not tattoo artist?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERROD: Tattoo artist.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: Tattoos are intricate. My niece and nephews, 6 and 7, they already have a whole sleeve of tattoos, it`s fine.

PAPA: Yes, and some of them don`t come off for weeks.

HILL: Please tell me you`re joking.

LEVY: I`m kidding. I`m kidding.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You were going to get a whole segment by yourself.

(CROSSTALK)

LEVY: They have a whole sleeve of tattoos, piercings.

SHERROD: Do you have a tattoo?

HILL: No, I don`t have a tattoo.

(CROSSTALK)

PAPA: I do. It`s an awful one I got when I was 20. It`s on my leg, and it`s a gnome.

HILL: It`s a gnome?

PAPA: He has got a magic hat and stars and --

HILL: You`ve got a tattoo, I want to see it.

PAPA: It`s not -- I can`t.

HILL: Tom, Egypt Sherrod and Noah, thank you very much for joining us. Always entertaining. We`ll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: So what`s the key to a long successful marriage? Some women say it`s humor. Some say it`s separate vacation. Others though are convinced cheating makes their marriage last. Here to discuss marriage and a lot more, Iris Krasnow. She wrote this book, it`s called "The Secret Lives of Wives: Women Share What It Really Takes to Stay Married." Gail Watkins joins us also. She`s featured in that book. And Gary Neuman, marriage counselor and author of "Connect to Love: The Keys to Transforming Your Relationship." Thanks all for joining us.

So, Iris, this book, by the way, what an eye opener. A little racy in parts, but very interesting. You interviewed over 200 women. People have been married for 15 to 70 years. What did you find out?

IRIS KRASNOW, AUTHOR: First of all, I`m a journalist, not a judge. And I can tell you, although there is some septuagenarians, and I interviewed a lot of people that have long traditional marriages, but many women don`t keep their marriages going the distance just by having a date night on a Wednesday night. Some women take separate summers. Some women reconnect with high school boyfriends and maybe steal a kiss here and there.

But really, the central secret to a long marriage, I found in my 200 wives, was to keep and sustain and maintain a sense of purpose and passion and many arteries of self-fulfillment beyond your marriage. In other words, you don`t get it all in one place.

HILL: Individuality. And Gail, I really loved reading your section there, because you talk about your husband coming back late from work, you are sitting there waiting to go to cocktail parties and waiting and waiting and waiting and get there for the last couple of minutes for it. And finally you started to go yourself. And when he can get there, great. But it seems like that was the very first step you took to doing it on your own. It was important for you to be there, and clearly he was wrapped up with work and you took charge. What changed in you?

GAIL WATKINS, FEATURED IN BOOK: I guess I just got tired of hanging around, doing nothing, being dressed, ready to go, hours go by. And, finally, it`s rude to be as late as we were. So I just -- most of the people in Annapolis at that time were not known to each other. It`s not a big town. So I wouldn`t feel alone by going to a party by myself.

HILL: Yes. You`re seeing friends. But did that make you feel sort of less angry at him because -- I know the feeling, sitting there waiting, and it`s not nice. Did it make you feel sort of less frustrated because you`re taking charge?

WATKINS: Exactly. Exactly.

HILL: And what was the key for you? Because you`ve been married a long time. You say it was not always rosy, and you did go through those periods. What brought you out of it and made you finally attain a much, I think, more balanced marriage?

WATKINS: I guess it was just, really, essentially, pursuing my art, going to Italy. I was accepted as an artist in residence at a program in Italy. And I loved it. I went back every summer to study the language. And I don`t know. It just sort of -- it just piled on itself. The more I did for myself, the better I felt and the less I depended on him.

HILL: Well, I think you did a very healthy thing, that was getting more involved in things that were of good interest to you.

Gary, in this book, which is so fascinating, there are people like this Indiana grandmom. She`s got three grandkids and she says, cheating is the way. So she`s happily married, she says, and she`s having flings here and there, having affairs, having sex with guys, you know, numerous guys. Do you find that that is more of a norm in relationships or a norm in healthy relationships?

GARY NEUMAN, AUTHOR, "CONNECT TO LOVE": It`s not a norm in healthy relationships. Listen, in my research of over 300 women, 4 out of 10 married women said that they were physically cheating. But what we were able to do is look at the 30 percent of women, which is a small number of women who are happily married and see what they were doing differently than women who were in so-called unhappy or failed marriages.

So the idea of parceling yourself out and bringing your intimacy to many others, we get married because we want a primary companionship, a primary intimacy. And too often people shoot off into other stratospheres before having the ability or knowing how to bring it back home and have those conversations and that information to develop something that`s rich and special over many, many years, which many people are able to do successfully.

HILL: Iris, I know you said you`re not a judge but a journalist, but did you blush when you talked to some of these women and hear about what they`ve been doing?

KRASNOW: You know, we`ve been hearing about the secret lives of husbands for centuries. We`re in the year 2011. And to think that people live with one person under one roof for the rest of their lives and never have lust in their heart or other places is just a myth.

HILL: Wait a second. Hold on. Let me challenge you on that, because that`s taking the lowest common denominator theory. You`re saying because men traditionally have been the cheaters, it`s OK for wives to be the cheaters. But the question is, what leads you to a healthy, good relationship?

KRASNOW: I`m sorry that that was misinterpreted. I think that it`s having your own life and your own sense of purpose and passion outside of your relationship.

I am not saying that it`s OK to cheat. I do not think that cheating leads to happily ever after or longevity. I`m just saying it`s out there. And I know from my own interviews in "The Secret Lives of Wives," that healthy marriages where there`s infidelity, some couples can forge through that and push to cleaner, better, deeper communication. And I interviewed a woman whose husband was sleeping with her best friend, and she forgave him and moved on. And I can honestly say right now this couple is one of the happiest marriages I portrayed.

(CROSSTALK)

NEUMAN: He`s not still sleeping --

HILL: I don`t think I`m that big a person. I`d be slapping him silly.

We are going to take -- we have to take a quick break. More with this in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: I`m back with our panel. We`re talking about what it takes to stay married, happily married these days. Iris Krasnow has written this great book, "The Secret Lives of Wives." And Iris, there is something that you wrote in there that I really loved. You were talking about the sort of the 50s housewives and you said they were admirable matriarchs who ran homes but could have run countries. I think a lot of times in our society we are a bit dismissive of women who stay at home, who work at home instead of working outside the home. But they can be just as happy and just as fulfilled. What were the secrets that you found out from those women?

KRASNOW: Well, I loved that you pinpointed that, because women can run almost anything. And a happy woman makes for a happy marriage. You know, I think one of the points that I found out from women who stayed home is their midlife malaise, their time when they feel like leaving their marriages may be when they ask themselves who will I be when I`m not mommy anymore? Their whole identities and sense of self-fulfillment was built around raising this family. And when empty nest hits, often an empty life hits. And that`s really the central theme of this book.

When an empty life hits like Gail, fill your life and your soul with a passion that is yours alone. Be it art, be it finish a novel. Go salsa dancing. Go to Greece with a girlfriend. Take a class at the community college. Do not depend on someone else to fill your soul. In the end --

HILL: Other people can`t make yourself happy. You`ve got to make yourself happy.

KRASNOW: You got that.

HILL: Gail, did your husband notice a difference in you? I mean, what happened? I know that you changed so much. But did his relationship and the way he viewed you change, as well?

WATKINS: Not really.

HILL: No?

(LAUGHTER)

WATKINS: Not really. He`s a very busy man and he`s a fantastic physician. And he still comes home late. So I don`t think --

HILL: I love your honesty.

WATKINS: On the other hand, he just got back from three weeks of hunting and fishing in Alaska, so he gets his time alone, too.

HILL: OK. Well, to that, Gary, you make an excellent point about it`s very important -- and I believe in it firmly -- to develop your own interests and your own identity. It`s not just living through your kids or living through your spouse. But you say it`s equally important, perhaps even more important, once the kids are gone, that you have developed things that you enjoy together, as well.

NEUMAN: Sure. Even when the kids are around, the idea -- my passion, our passions is our vibrancy and we bring so much emotion to it. When you develop those things outside of your marriage, what you end up really doing is leading these parallel lives, and then you wonder why years later you don`t feel connected.

HILL: Which is OK as long as you`re doing something together, too.

NEUMAN: As long as you`re doing something -- you can obviously have things outside the marriage that are solely yours, but the vibrancy of a marriage is that we have the companionship and the things that are of interest and the emotional attachment throughout the relationship. Find the time.

HILL: Thank you so much. We`ve got to take a break right here. But listen. Pick up the book. It is very interesting reading, and I think very informative. Iris Krasnow wrote "The Secret Life of Wives." Gail Watkins, thank you. And Gary Neuman, thank you as well.

And thank you for watching. I appreciate it. I`m E.D. Hill. Good night.

END