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Joy Behar Page
Where is Baby Lisa; Michael Jackson Death Trial
Aired October 24, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, new clues in the disappearance of Baby Lisa. Surveillance videos shows a man wandering near the home the night Lisa vanished. This, after investigators uncovered soil in their yard that had been recently overturned. Joy will have the latest.
Then as the defense gears up in the trial of Conrad Murray, Judy Garland`s daughter, Lorna Luft, tells Joy about the similarities between her mother`s drug use and Michael Jackson`s.
Plus Charlie Sheen takes another shot at "Two and a Half Men" and Ashton Kutcher goes on a bizarre web rant.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: I was away last week but I did keep an eye on this Lisa Irwin story, she`s the child who disappeared in Kansas City. There are new clues now including a surveillance video, showing a mystery man walking along the road around 2:15 a.m. on October 4th. This was less than two miles from Lisa`s home the night she vanished. The same night witnesses reportedly saw a suspicious man carrying a baby.
With me now to discuss this case are Sandra Endo, CNN correspondent; Tom Ruskin, private investigator and former NYPD detective investigator; Rosemarie Arnold, a criminal defense attorney who worked with Baby Lisa`s family lawyer, Joe Tacopina, on the Joran Van Der Sloot civil case.
Ok. Welcome to the show you guys.
So Sandra, what can you tell us about the new surveillance video?
SANDRA ENDO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it`s interesting, Joy, because this new surveillance video as you mentioned could match witness testimony which places a man walking in the dark, wearing a t-shirt, carrying a baby in diapers the morning of Lisa Irwin`s disappearance. Now, if investigators find that this surveillance video does in fact match that description, of course, that`s an avenue they can pursue in terms of trying to find where Baby Lisa is.
But of course, investigators right now are not specifically commenting on that piece of video. They say they have surveillance video from everywhere in this surrounding area.
BEHAR: Ok. So Tom, what do you make of that? This is a break in the case, isn`t it?
TOM RUSKIN, FORMER NYPD INVESTIGATOR: It`s definitely a break. It`s definitely a lead. I don`t know if it`s an active lead -- it`s a lead.
You see the same -- well, you see an individual three times during the night closely after she passes out from drinking too much alcohol.
BEHAR: A lot of wine.
RUSKIN: A lot of wine and some pills. She was taking prescription medication.
BEHAR: What kind of pills? What kind of pills?
RUSKIN: Various medications -- she was taking --
BEHAR: Sleeping pills?
RUSKIN: Yes, some sleeping pills, some anti-anxiety. So she passes out around, that`s the last time she sees her children. She says it`s around 10:30, 10:40 that night and then you see different reports of a man walk, some out of the woods, some with a child, some without a child.
BEHAR: Well, the surveillance video shows the man with a child or that was eyewitnesses?
(CROSSTALK)
ROSEMARIE ARNOLD, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, in the surveillance video, the man has no child.
BEHAR: Yes.
ARNOLD: It doesn`t make sense on the timeline though that this man really has anything to do with the other two spottings, because the first eyewitness, three houses away 12:15, says the man has a baby with a diaper. Now, remember, she says she puts the baby to bed in purple shorts and a shirt.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: So that doesn`t make a lot of sense the man strips the baby so maybe the baby could fit out of the window better? It doesn`t make any sense that the man would take the baby`s clothes off. Then at 2:30 --
BEHAR: But he didn`t take the baby out of the -- whatever happened, the door was open.
RUSKIN: And it looks like they walked out the front door.
ARNOLD: The baby that was spotted is in a diaper -- a couple houses away. Then you have 2:30, you see the man on that new video and that man has no baby.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: You can see his arm swinging. It`s a bad video but you could see he has no baby. And then 4:00 a.m., there`s another man in the t-shirt and that man has the same baby in the diapers, supposedly. So what do you think the man in the middle at 2:30 walking out of the woods put the baby down in the woods for a little while?
RUSKIN: Could have. It`s been done.
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: But why.
RUSKIN: Sure. Because he sees police cars at this point in time going around the neighborhood. There could have been normal patrol. He could have seen something that spooked him. He could have put the baby down. If it`s the same individual, you have a timeline within hours after the baby is supposedly taken of someone possibly carrying the baby that could meet the description of that child.
ARNOLD: It doesn`t make sense though.
BEHAR: Ok. Sandra. All right. Go ahead. Say what you want to say.
ARNOLD: Because it wasn`t until 4:00 they reported that baby missing. So, why would the police be looking for the baby if it was not even reported missing yet?
RUSKIN: It might not -- sometimes you see a police car and people have been known to --
ARNOLD: In the woods?
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s not dwell on that for the moment because we have other stuff.
So Sandra, what can you tell us about an FBI cadaver dog that allegedly, supposedly picked up the scent of a dead body in the mother`s bedroom?
ENDO: Yes. That`s according to these court documents Joy that we received last week. And in these court documents is the basis of the police affidavit for search warrant. On Wednesday, police did an extensive search inside Baby Irwin`s house and that surrounding area 17 hours, taking evidence from the house.
And this was all based on that cadaver dog hit inside Deborah Bradley`s bedroom, an area around her bed, of the floor. That is where investigators say that dog picked up a positive scent for the scent of a dead body. And that is the basis for the whole search.
But keep in mind a lawyer showed video evidence inside that home saying that the police didn`t take much, especially the carpet surrounding the bed.
BEHAR: But couldn`t that have been -- they said it could have been the scent of a dirty diaper.
RUSKIN: Let`s talk about a cadaver dog. Cadaver dogs are very good investigative tools for investigators or police to determine if there`s a scent there. A scent could be you clipping your nail, it dropping on the floor by accident and it actually laying there. It could also be you cut yourself by accident weeks before, months before and a drop or two of blood --
BEHAR: And that would smell like a dead smell?
RUSKIN: Sure. It`s dead cells. It`s dead human cells, so a dog could hit on it. A lot of times, a cadaver dog will be the first tool the police will use before they use a scent dog.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. So that doesn`t sound like evidence that`s significant. Right.
RUSKIN: It`s not significant.
ARNOLD: Not to mention that in this case they went back and they didn`t find any dead baby there.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: So the only thing that could happen is there was a dead baby there and they removed it.
RUSKIN: And also, if they really felt that that was significant evidence, they would have taken the spot where they spotted the thing to test it for DNA, to see if it`s the baby`s DNA.
ARNOLD: Right.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Rosemarie, do you think the police are building a case against the parents?
ARNOLD: Looks like they`re trying to.
BEHAR: But the father was away, that night. He was working on night shift.
ARNOLD: Well, the father has an airtight alibi. He was working.
BEHAR: Yes.
ARNOLD: But the police seem to constantly criticize the parents. And certainly, the mother did things that warrant criticism.
BEHAR: Again, it could be just negligence. You can`t pin a murder on the woman. She fell asleep, she was drinking.
ARNOLD: Drank a box of win.
BEHAR: She was definitely irresponsible I think. But we still don`t know what else.
Ok Sandra, police were also looking at overturned soil in the family`s backyard. Do they think there was a grave there?
ENDO: Well, that was all based Joy, on this search warrant. The woman, Deborah Bradley, Lisa Irwin`s mother, said to police when they responded here to the scene the day she went missing that she didn`t want to look behind her house because she was afraid of what she might find.
Now we went back into that area behind her home and saw there were overgrown weeds. There was a shed in the back as well. So clearly she didn`t go out there on her own to look and that is why police said hey, we need a search warrant to look into this house a little further.
BEHAR: What do you make of that, that she didn`t want to go in the back because she was afraid of what she could find? What do you make of that?
RUSKIN: From what the attorney said and what police has said, she was curled up on the floor until the police actually got there. She realized her baby is missing. She realized she was drunk and maybe a little bit under the influence of drugs. It`s not unusual.
Listen I`ve been to called to -- as a cop --
BEHAR: You`re scared to look, you mean.
RUSKIN: You`re scared, you can go outside. So the fact that you don`t want to look in there -- and who knows what she really told cops. Cops write down spontaneous statements, we don`t know what she was saying.
BEHAR: But as is, it looks bad for her, doesn`t it Rosemarie?
ARNOLD: As a mother, you don`t lie down and cry on the floor when your baby`s missing. Maybe she was afraid that somebody out there might hurt her but you`re worried about your baby. You run outside and you find your baby at all costs. You run out screaming bloody murder to wake up everyone in the neighborhood, my baby`s gone.
BEHAR: But she`s inebriated.
ARNOLD: She`s inebriated, absolutely.
RUSKIN: Right. The husband`s the one who was taking charge of the scene. When he came home, he found that the baby`s missing. He`s the one who ran next door first to see if the baby was there. And then to call the police.
BEHAR: It`s such an awful story.
RUSKIN: It`s a terrible story.
If she had something to do with it, it`s really terrible.
ARNOLD: Terrible.
BEHAR: Ok. Sandra, one more thing. A pentagram symbol which some associated with occult was found behind the family home. Tell us about that.
ENDO: Well, we investigated the area all behind the home and there is a very medium-sized actually wooded area. And there is a drainage pipe, some graffiti as you mentioned a pentagram. So far, we haven`t seen investigators come back to that area to search besides that extensive search of the whole entire neighborhood on Wednesday. So clearly if that was an important area of investigation, they would have honed in on that a little more. So far, they`re saying that they`re pursuing every lead and they`re not ruling anything out.
BEHAR: Who has such a thing in their yard? What is this?
ARNOLD: Very scary.
RUSKIN: Well, it`s drainage pipe. It`s supposedly --
BEHAR: The pentagram, what is that?
RUSKIN: They found it in a drainage pipe that`s quite large, so kids could have been hanging out there and spray painted it. I don`t give much significance to that.
BEHAR: I`ve never seen one.
RUSKIN: A pentagram or drainage pipe.
ARNOLD: Very scary.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much everybody.
Now, tomorrow we will have private investigator, Bill Stanton, who is working with the family in the search to find Baby Lisa. So you`ll want to tune in to that.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Prosecutors in the Conrad Murray trial have wrapped up their case, now the defense will try to convince the jury that Murray did not cause the death of Michael Jackson.
Here to talk about the trial are Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, long time confidante of Michael Jackson and the author of "10 Conversations You Need to Have with Yourself"; and criminal defense attorney, Rosemarie Arnold. Welcome to the show.
Now the prosecution has spent four weeks building their case. They should be done in four days. Tell me that`s true.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER SPIRITUAL ADVISER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I think that the prosecution`s case has been absolutely devastating. What we have seen is that Conrad Murray was just as Dr. Shafer, who`s been the best witness, described him. He was not a doctor at all; he was an employee.
His -- the sole purpose for Dr. Conrad Murray, it seems, was to supply Michael with whatever he needed. Michael did not have a medical license and he could not obtain these prescription drugs on his own as did Conrad Murray. And Conrad Murray had an absolutely ethical and moral responsibility, let alone a professional responsibility to say no. But he didn`t. And this is the pattern throughout the people in Michael`s life, the people who surrounded him. He got caught because Michael died on his watch. And that`s a tragedy of incalculable proportions.
I`m at the point where I`m ready Dr. Conrad Murray if he wants to seek my advice, I think he should plead guilty. I think he should throw himself on the mercy of the court. Because this is such an egregious violation of what he did giving someone who was that helpless. Michael was in such a bad state --
BEHAR: But did they prove, Rosemarie, involuntary manslaughter?
ARNOLD: In order to prove that, you have to show that he was reckless. And I think that the prosecution laid out a perfect case for medical malpractice, horrendous.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: He really committed violations of ethics, as you said. But the jury has to find that he was reckless. And in this particular case, there`s doubt that some of the things he did -- even the experts that testified today -- the Propofol experts said that it`s very possible Michael Jackson could have reached up and administered himself the Propofol.
BEHAR: Right.
ARNOLD: Now. Ok. The guy`s an idiot for leaving him alone there with all that medication but that doesn`t necessarily mean he committed manslaughter.
BOTEACH: Let`s be honest.
BEHAR: Can I go back to the Propofol for a second because the defense gives their experts on Propofol and the prosecution gives it. Propofol is Propofol -- it`s science. It`s an anesthesia. You need to have an anesthesiologist. You need certain equipment. You don`t just do it in somebody`s house. What is the difference between the two sides? I mean really --
BOTEACH: It`s simple. One of them is saying that Michael would self- administer this drug and killed himself in so doing. That is so preposterous. You have Conrad Murray making Propofol milkshakes whenever Michael wants it. Why would this superstar suddenly decide that this physician who`s giving him everything on earth that he wants that the last little bit on his own. It`s absolutely preposterous.
BEHAR: That`s a good point.
ARNOLD: No, because what the prosecution`s expert is saying is that the Propofol was administered by an IV. The reason that the experts are going to come to such different conclusions is the assumptions they use when they do their analogy.
We don`t know that there`s an IV of Propofol that the doctor gave to Michael Jackson. He`s assuming that in his calculations to get to his end that the prosecution is paying him to say. This is the problem. But I`m sure that the defense, in their four days worth of witnesses is going to have an expert that`s going to say, no, Conrad Murray administered by injection to him only 25 milligrams, which is what he said to the police in his statement.
BOTEACH: But what is undeniably true, Rosemarie, is that Conrad Murray was not an idiot. He didn`t leave Michael and go and play a video game.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: He was on the phone with women, with a harem of women. We`re talking about a man who was so incredibly reckless using Michael`s fame to pick up women in bars and in striptease joints. And this is so egregious, it boggles the imagination.
ARNOLD: It boggles your imagination. But he`s selfish and stupid and he did things that are considered malpractice. But a juror might not believe that that`s reckless.
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: People believe that -- this is too, right? People believe that Conrad Murray loved Michael Jackson and that he was acting --
BOTEACH: Who believes that?
ARNOLD: People believe it.
BOTEACH: The man is taping Michael`s slurring words. I mean these tapes have been so damaging to Michael`s reputation around the world. It shows Michael in the worst possible light. Whenever Michael went in public, I have to tell you, Joy, if we went out for five minutes to buy a can of Coca-Cola, he made sure he put his best foot forward. He never wanted to be seen in a negative light. He was always conscious of his appearance.
My God, he`s looking down from heaven, listening to these tapes of slurring his words. Conrad Murray had no love for Michael Jackson; he had contempt for him. Michael Jackson was a specimen. Any doctor who can tape a man speaking that way has contempt for his patient.
BEHAR: Ok. Listen, and a lot of people agree with that. But Michael has no part in this whatsoever?
BOTEACH: Of course he`s a part of it. Michael was an adult. And he allowed --
BEHAR: I know he`s looking down but still.
BOTEACH: Michael was an adult. He allowed his life to slowly atrophy. He allowed his life to slowly decline. He was warned against it by people like me and others. He chose not to heed that advice. He chose to distance himself from people who gave him that advice.
Having said all that, if I want to put -- like I said -- if I`m Michael Jackson and I say to Conrad Murray, I can only fall asleep if you take a jackhammer and hit it into my head and then Conrad Murray says pay me $150,000 and I will do even that, you`re going to go to jail. No matter what -- no matter how self-destructive Michael Jackson`s tendencies were, the fact that a physician was paid to polish him off, for goodness sake, is just the most egregious violation.
Conrad Murray, as Dr. Shafer rightly said, has brought the entire medical profession into disrepute. And that`s why I was impressed that Dr. Shafer said I am not taking money for this testimony. I am defending the reputation of physicians everywhere.
BEHAR: Ok. The Jacksons are going to be there -- I understand -- this week. For a couple weeks they`re coming in. Was he actually close to this family? Is this just what the Italians call (INAUDIBLE) where you just have to do it for show or is this real?
BOTEACH: This family are a collection of warm-hearted individuals who have been ruined by fame. There has not yet been a professional counselor to go in and fix this up. So there was great alienation in the family. In the time that I knew Michael, I tried very hard to get him to reconnect to family. Michael spent two Thanksgivings with me and my family.
BEHAR: Really?
BOTEACH: Yes. My purpose was to show him that fans love you for what you do but family loves you for who you are. There`s a very big difference. The fans can abandon you once you stop doing it, the family stick will with you always. And the family has now shown this.
The problem is you`re speaking about a family that became famous and made so much money so early and there have been ravaging effects of celebrity that need to be reversed and even now they need to be reversed.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Thanks very much for this conversation.
And we`ll be back in a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still to come, Judy Garland`s daughter, Lorna Luft, tells Joy about the similarities between her mother`s drug use and Michael Jackson`s.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Amidst the chaos surrounding Conrad Murray`s trial, people seem to be forgetting one thing. Three things actually -- his children: Prince, Paris and Blanket, who were in the house when Michael died. Singer Lorna Luft said she can identify with what the kids are going through and what they may face in the future because Lorna was 16 when her mother, the legendary Judy Garland died of a drug overdose.
Joining me for an exclusive interview is Lorna Luft. Lorna, thank you for coming on to the show and talking about this. It`s kind of a sad story but --
LORNA LUFT, JUDY GARLAND`S DAUGHTER: It`s heartbreaking.
BEHAR: It`s heartbreaking.
LUFT: It is heartbreaking.
BEHAR: Have you been following the Michael Jackson trial?
LUFT: I have because I`m very interested in how our legal system works. I do watch trials. I have been watching this and I find it fascinating how the legal system in this country works.
BEHAR: Now there are some parallels between Michael`s life and your mom, Judy Garland`s life in a certain way. Do you see the parallels at all?
LUFT: I see the parallels in the fact that they were both children and that they became commodities as children.
BEHAR: They didn`t have a normal childhood.
LUFT: But it was their normal. They didn`t know anything but that. And so -- but I think that now, we know that it is so dangerous to have a child be responsible for everyone else`s paycheck.
BEHAR: Well, that is a problem.
LUFT: It becomes a problem for the child. It becomes a problem for everyone else. I also think that the time difference between when my mom was making films, one movie after another. By the time my mom was 37 years old, she had made 39 movies so she never stopped working.
The parallels in that sense, I do understand. I do understand that these children become legends and then the pressure, the obligation, the responsibility and that no one is there to really sit them down and say, hey, here`s how it`s going to go, here`s what`s going to happen. They have to find that out.
And when adults are counting on them for their rent and their well- being, I just think it is overwhelming. And I think there`s always going to be some kind of a problem.
BEHAR: So your mom, when she was a little girl, even before "The Wizard of Oz", she was working?
LUFT: Yes. My mom went on to a staged -- toddled on to a stage, she was 2 1/2.
BEHAR: Yes.
LUFT: And so she --
BEHAR: Little baby gum.
LUFT: Baby gum, yes.
And then when she became Judy Garland and by the time she was 17 and she`s made "The Wizard of Oz", she was responsible for so many people`s livelihood including a studio.
BEHAR: And your mother -- I mean her mother, not your mother. Her mother.
LUFT: And her mother and her sisters and -- she was the bread winner.
BEHAR: She was the bread winner.
Ok. We`re going to take a very quick break. We have a lot more to talk about. So stay right there. We`ll have more with Lorna after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Welcome back to the show. I`m joined by entertainer Lorna Luft, the daughter of Judy Garland. And we`re discussing what it`s like to grow up with a parent who is a legend and an addict.
So I mean, Michael was both and your mom was both.
LORNA LUFT: But they were also -- the first thing that we have to say about both of these unbelievable human beings is that their talent.
BEHAR: Enormous.
LUFT: Was enormous. And I`ve always said about my mom, that I always thought her talent was bigger than she was. I think when your talent is bigger than you are --
BEHAR: It`s almost you have no control over it.
LUFT: You don`t, no, and it just -- I`ve always -- I`ve always thought of my mother`s life as this beautiful ball of yarn that unraveled. And it all unraveled because of everyone not only thinking of her as a commodity, but then the people at MGM not realizing what they were doing when they handed her, her first dosage of medication--
BEHAR: We`ll get to that. That`s Louis B. Mayer`s fault.
LUFT: Well, it was also, Joy, nobody knew in those days. You have to look at the time, they didn`t know what they were doing. And I think, you know, they didn`t have --
BEHAR: Well, let`s for the sake of discussion here, my understanding, and you can correct me, is that she and Mickey Rooney had a tight schedule when they were kids. They had to be on camera, they had to be dancing and singing and be fabulous, which they both were, and they had to have energy. They didn`t get enough sleep sometimes, so they would give them amphetamines to pick them up.
LUFT: Correct.
BEHAR: And then Seconal, I suppose, or some downers to get them to sleep, which immediately causes a drug dependency.
LUFT: Yes. But they didn`t know that at the time, because when everybody was taking all of these medications from all different kinds of doctors, and they didn`t know because we had no knowledge, we had no education and we had no facilities.
BEHAR: Yes. That`s true. No Betty Ford Center.
LUFT: No. So there was -- there was a forgiveness within me about that. Whereas today, there`s no excuse. Today we have all of that and we have all of the knowledge. So, it`s harder today when something tragic like this happens.
BEHAR: It could be avoided. But you know, you were talking before about this enormous talent they both had, and yet they have in common, both Judy and Michael, was their self-esteem was not as high as their talent at all. My perception is that they both didn`t realize how good they were, or if they did, they felt they were never good enough. He, in his drug stupor that we hear the tapes about, he talks about, you know, it has to be great, it has to be the greatest show. They have to love me.
LUFT: I feel, Joy, that they were both incredibly insecure. Because they were not looked at as human. I think that when you are looked at as a human and someone says, I love you for you, not I love your movies and I love your dancing and I love all of this -- all of a sudden, what happened to me? And I think that`s what happened.
Also, I also believe that with my mom, she went into this factory of MGM. And they also broke her down as a child, and not being told that you are pretty, and that`s what they did --
BEHAR: They never told her she was pretty?
LUFT: They tried to fix her. You know the scene, that wonderful scene in "A Star is Born," where they said her nose is this and this -- that really happened to her. When you do that to a child and when you do that to someone and they`re that -- that chips away at their self-esteem. And I think what you do to that person, it damages them until the end of their lives.
BEHAR: Your mother probably -- she was surrounded by these kind of like MGM raving beauties. And Judy was very cute and pretty, but she was not --
LUFT: A sex symbol.
BEHAR: She was not Lana Turner. But Lana didn`t have Judy`s talent.
LUFT: But my mom did say at one point in her life, which always made me laugh, when she`d look at these beautiful, beautiful faces, she`d say, yes, can`t sing a note.
BEHAR: She was very funny. Judy was funny.
LUFT: She was really funny.
BEHAR: It was all about the drugs that really hurt her. If it wasn`t that she was addicted, I think she -- it`s just a sad story. But you know, the other part of this I want to talk to you about, because as a child, I mean, we`re talking about Blanket and Paris and the children, and what are they going to be experiencing? Now, you were there.
LUFT: I -- my heart and my whole being breaks for these children.
BEHAR: What do you think is going to happen?
LUFT: Because they are going to be reminded, as I am, because we`re all in a very, very, very small club of having legends as parents. They are going to be reminded every single solitary day of their lives that their dad isn`t here. I`m reminded every single solitary day of my life my mom isn`t here. I go into a card store and there she is as Dorothy. I`ll turn a car radio on, they are going to go through the absolute same thing.
And what they have to hang on to, as I have hung on to all of my life, and it`s the only thing that has kept me grounded, is I know that my mother loved me. And the rest of it all is noise. Because they are going to have people who are going to come up to them and want to tell them stories, and they are going to have all of this to grow up and into.
And as long as they hang onto the fact that they know that their dad loved them, they`ll be OK.
BEHAR: They had to know some of that, because at the funeral, they were very much taken and scared and upset that their dad is gone. They must have felt loved by him. I think.
LUFT: But hang on to that now because he`s not there. And people are going to -- everybody`s going to want to tell them something.
BEHAR: You must have that all the time.
LUFT: Every day. And you know something, I have to basically say to myself, all right, what am I going to believe? What am I going to take out of this and what am I going to learn and what is white noise? What is all of that, just I don`t--
BEHAR: What about the fact that you are sort of like had to grow up in the shadow of a legend? That`s got be rough on you. Does that bother you at all?
LUFT: No one twisted my arm to go into this business.
BEHAR: They did not.
LUFT: No. I wanted to do this.
BEHAR: Your mother never said, Lorna, I want you to be a singer?
LUFT: No.
BEHAR: Or Liza either? Neither one of you?
LUFT: My mom never really talked about it, because it was sort of like the big white elephant in the room, that if you don`t talk about it, maybe they would forget about it. But so when I made the decision to do that, she said to me and gave me the best advice, she said you better study, because you`re not getting in on my name. And I thought that was so -- it`s so -- it`s such a good piece of advice, because you have to study and you have to learn your craft and be your own person.
BEHAR: Yes, absolutely, it`s a lot of work.
LUFT: It is.
BEHAR: Like Isabella Rossellini, I was reading--
LUFT: She`s great.
BEHAR: I love her, but she said she didn`t want to be an actress, because she could never compete with Ingrid Bergman.
LUFT: But you`re not competing.
(CROSSTALK)
LUFT: I think at the very beginning of my career, you know, when people saw me and I`m constantly being asked to sing "Over the Rainbow," which I never have and never will, but I think that once you find your own way and you grow up and you have your own children and you have a husband and you have a life, then you say to yourself, OK, this is OK to explore my past and to learn about the truth, but do it in your own time.
BEHAR: OK. Now, let`s talk about being an enabler or the enablers around her. What did you have to do to help her as a child? Let`s talk about the parentification of the child.
Let me tell you one thing. Michael`s children, we heard, that they used to have to bring the oxygen tank up and down the stairs for Michael. I think that`s burdensome for children to have to do something like that.
LUFT: I think that when you have a parent who has a problem, the one thing you want to do is make them OK. So that becomes helping them. Making them OK. It`s the other adults around who get moth syndrome, as I call it.
BEHAR: Moth syndrome.
LUFT: Moth syndrome.
BEHAR: Around the flame.
LUFT: Meaning, if you fly close enough to the flame, it will rub off on you and make you famous. And I think people suffer from that. And I saw a great deal of that. I see it now.
But I think, as a child, when you are given a responsibility to take care of your parent, that`s all you want to do. You want to take care of. So do you become the parent? Yes.
BEHAR: You become the parent.
LUFT: You do. But that`s only when you look back on it as an adult and you say, was that right or wrong? It was what it was. And, you know, I wish that I was the last person to talk to you who is not putting to bed their addicted parent right now. There are thousands and thousands of children taking care of their parents.
BEHAR: It is sad.
LUFT: It is sad.
BEHAR: Very sad.
LUFT: But today, we do have the knowledge, the education and the facilities.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, Lorna, for coming on and talking about this.
LUFT: Thank you, Joy.
BEHAR: And if you`re in New Jersey, check out Lorna Luft at the Paper Mill Playhouse, where she will be appearing in Irvin Berlin`s "White Christmas." From November 16th to December 24th. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Charlie Sheen is back to slamming "Two & a Half Men" saying he`s extremely disappointed with the direction the show has taken since his departure. Hey, Charlie, it`s not masterpiece theater, OK? With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Howard Bragman, vice chairman of Reputation.com and founder of "15 Minutes" Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent of "Newsweek" and "The Daily Beast." Taylor Negron, comedian and director. Lovely to see you all, OK. Now, Howard, he was awfully nice at the Emmy`s. Why did he turn like this? Charlie?
HOWARD BRAGMAN, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: You know, I think the meds were not kicking in well. You know, it`s -- he was doing so well and I was really proud of him. And it was nice that he was sort of moving beyond, which psychologically is a good thing. But, you know, he is wrong. The show has 2 million more viewers on average than when he was on the show.
BEHAR: Is that so?
BRAGMAN: Yes. Absolutely. It`s up to 15, it was closer to 13.
BEHAR: So, is it bitter - and just sour grapes? Why?
BRAGMAN: Probably.
BEHAR: Do you think so?
BRAGMAN: Well, I mean I think it`s hard for Ashton Kutcher or anyone who is on "Two & A Half Men," because that`s like working at the hotel at "The Shining." You know, I mean - it`s like because he`s possessed by the spirit -- constantly of Charlie Sheen.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: Then he`s ranting and raving, well, don`t, you know, smoke Lysol.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: You know, don`t put Advil in your pipes.
BEHAR: And he`s also gotten $25 million, you know, out of the deal so maybe he should keep his mouth shut, Charlie.
REBECCA DANA, SR. CORRESPONDENT, "NEWSWEEK," "THE DAILY BEAST": Yeah, I mean I - -it`s funny to talk about the - to question Charlie Sheen`s authenticity, but I for one was really like about as nervous as I`ve ever been watching Charlie Sheen ...
BEHAR: Yes.
DANA: Just to say those nice things that he said on the Emmy`s, I mean ...
BEHAR: That was weird.
DANA: .. that seemed -- it`s just seemed weird and disingenuous.
BEHAR: And a lie. A big fat lie.
DANA: I mean this is -- this is Charlie Sheen we`re talking about.
BEHAR: Yes.
DANA: Of course he`s ....
BEHAR: But you know, Howard, my information is that the ratings for the show have been down.
BRAGMAN: No.
BEHAR: It says that it went from 28 million to 14.85 million total viewers.
BRAGMAN: They did. When Ashton came on, they started out very high, but they`re not down in comparison to last year. They`re down in comparison to the opening weeks. But that was sampling. Everybody wanted to see Ashton.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. But he`s so -- he`s been naked in every episode, haven`t they seen enough?
BRAGMAN: I think if you Google him on the Internet, there`s probably more to be seen, but sure.
BEHAR: OK, now, he put out, he put out a bizarre video rant of his own. Watch this, Ashton did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ASHTON KUTCHER: I just wanted to open up a little dialogue on the state of honesty, the state of truth, the status of truth, as it pertains to literature and media. We really have to take it upon ourselves to instill a level of honesty in the works and the media that we create and share with one another.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRAGMAN: It looks like he`s ...
BEHAR: He`s boring?
TAYLOR NEGRON, COMEDIAN/ACTOR: He`s going through an intense David Koresh phase.
BEHAR: Oh.
NEGRON: I mean you know what? I read from the book of Ashton every day. I do tweets one through nine.
BEHAR: Why didn`t he talk about the cheating rumors if he really wants to be honest?
DANA: I just have had enough of "Two & A Half Men" actors opening up honest dialogue.
BEHAR: You know, me, too. But you know, not that I want to gossip, but he wasn`t wearing a wedding ring in that particular ..
BRAGMAN: I think we`re reading tea leaves with the wedding ring.
BEHAR: And -
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: But if you really look at, though, if you really look at his rant, as it`s been called.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: He`s right, he`s saying that the media has no credibility.
BEHAR: Yes.
BRAGMAN: ... the truth does not get in the way of a good story right now. And I think he`s 100 percent accurate in being a public figure, he`s frustrated by this pure lack of standards.
NEGRON: Yeah, exactly. There`s no gatekeeper for the truth. I mean last night, they changed the Mason-Dixon line.
DANA: There may be a good point somewhere in here, but generally speaking, I think and you might be able to speak to this because you`re in public relations. The way of making that point is not in like a grainy video your mutton chops, where you`re at a weird angle. Like, may, you know, if you`re Ashton Kutcher, maybe you want to write something about it, maybe you`d like to give an interview, but don`t like angle the webcam like this.
NEGRON: He`s making $15 million a year. He can do whatever in the hell, He`s going to become a spokesperson for cough drops.
BEHAR: OK, here`s another song.
When Madonna was booed by fans on the red carpet at the London premier for her film "WE", she said it was because she was misunderstood on a global scale. People don`t boo because they don`t get you, they boo because they don`t like you, Madonna. That`s why ...
BRAGMAN: I`ll tell you why they boo.
BEHAR: They don`t get her -- they didn`t get the hydrangea thing either, remember that story? I mean she is really -- what`s up with her?
BRAGMAN: The reason she was booed, and I will tell you ...
BEHAR: Go ahead.
BRAGMAN: Is that her fans felt that she didn`t spend enough time with them. And I`ve looked at the research on celebrities. And the worst thing you can do, you could, you know, you can murder your mother and nobody cares.
BEHAR: Yeah.
BRAGMAN: But god forbid you disrespect a fan. It`s the worst sin you can commit. And that`s what they were responding to.
BEHAR: Well, then maybe she should spend more time with her fans.
BRAGMAN: Have you seen her fans? Would you?
BEHAR: I have never seen, I have no idea who her fans are.
(CROSSTALK)
NEGRON: And the thing is you know what -- you don`t boo your elders. You know, Madonna is an elder in the culture right now.
BEHAR: She`s an elderly woman now.
NEGRON: She`s my age.
BRAGMAN: Yeah.
NEGRON: She`s my age, and you know what -- and Opie didn`t boo Aunt Bea when she brought him the pickles.
BEHAR: What did you want to say, Rebecca?
DANA: I just wanted to ask if it`s possible maybe that they were also booing her because the movie is terrible. And so, it`s in addition to the fact she`s not spending enough time. Well, but people have heard about it, we`ve read about it at this point, we know that Madonna is over-identifying with Wallis Simpson. Maybe her fans are upset because she`s putting out crap.
BEHAR: And what about the fact that her brother -- her brother is reportedly homeless and living under some kind of-- under a bridge, God forbid.
NEGRON: Her brother ...
BEHAR: The guy is under a bridge. Why doesn`t she, you know, send him some money?
BRAGMAN: I was just online going to reorder.com in her hometown of Saginaw...
BEHAR: Right.
BRAGMAN: For 1600 bucks, we can buy her a house, so are you in with me? We can buy a house for her brother.
BEHAR: For the brother.
BRAGMAN: For $1600.
BEHAR: Really?
BRAGMAN: I`ll go a quarter, you go a quarter. Can we all?
BEHAR: What sound is that?
NEGRON: There`s something in the -- but it`s not in the story here, because maybe her brother is a troll.
BEHAR: That is ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Is this going to be a PR nightmare for her, this whole thing, Howard, what do you think?
BRAGMAN: No, it`s not. Because there`s another part of the story we`re not hearing. The brother worked for the father in the winery, Madonna has given a lot of money to the winery, and there is a reason he was booted.
BEHAR: Why?
BRAGMAN: : We don`t know that, but, you know, we know the younger brother ...
BEHAR: Maybe he has issues ...
BRAGMAN: The younger brother wrote a really nasty book about Madonna. I think her brothers have issues.
BEHAR: Really? They`re jealous, maybe. She is the big star. OK, we`ll have more pop culture when we come back. Sit tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. You know, after Moammar Gadhafi was killed on Thursday, authorities found the Libyan dictator was wearing a wig when he died. I believe it was the Ava Gabor sassy girl model. But listen, you guys. Can you imagine anything more embarrassing for this dictator than to be caught with a wig? In a hole? He was in a hole. They`re always in a hole, these dictators.
DANA: Supposedly his daughter called and one of the rebels who killed him said, fuzzhead is dead.
NEGRON: Well, I mean he had face work.
BEHAR: Yes, he had cosmetic surgery.
NEGRON: And a man, in our culture when a man gets face work, the surgeon gives you two options, Zigfried or Roy. And he took Roy, I mean, after the lion. I mean--
BEHAR: It`s sort of surprising that he was that vain, isn`t it?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: -- dictator. Who was going to tell him it didn`t look good?
BEHAR: That`s true. He always had a lot of outfits and everything.
BRAGMAN: I think the hair was attached to the hat, like those Halloween costumes.
NEGRON: We do want to see our leaders get older. Look what we`re doing with Lindsay Lohan.
BEHAR: And then the surgeon said that Gadhafi insisted on local anesthesia when he was getting the cosmetic surgery because he wanted to be woken up in the middle so he could eat a hamburger. Who does this? What is that? It`s just -- all right. Let`s move on. We have Winslet, Kate Winslet. This summer, when Kate Winslet narrowly escaped a fire at Richard Branson`s Caribbean home, and even helped his old lady mother, who was 90, to safety. Well, Kate said the very first thing she thought to do was put on a bra. Isn`t that the first thing, Rebecca, you think of when there`s a fire, where is my brassier?
DANA: Yes. Without question. If you, not if the flames are licking at your heels, but anything short of that. Especially if you`re Kate Winslet. I mean, come on. No one wants to take my picture running out of a burning house at whatever time on night.
BEHAR: Yes, they do.
DANA: But Kate Winslet, you have got to assume that you`ve got to do a quick once-over before you run out.
BEHAR: How would you -- you`re a PR guy. Is she worried about her image, her celebrity image here or is she kidding?
BRAGMAN: You know, we have this great family story. When I was a kid, my grandmother lived on this busy street. There`s a big car crash, she hears it. She wore these space shoes around the house, an old Jewish lady. She ran upstairs, put her high heels on, and then she went outside. That`s what ladies do, OK?
DANA: I think once you stop thinking about putting on your underthings or your heels, that is when you lose your humanity.
NEGRON: During the L.A. riots, it was the first time I tried spanx (ph).
BEHAR: Oh, really, didn`t you love them? OK, thank you guys, very much. By the way, Taylor Negron is directing "Who Loves You Baby," a musical salute to Telly Savalas -- that`s nice -- at the Soho Playhouse in New York. And before we go, did you see the story last week about the drunk dad who got his 9-year-old daughter to drive him to the gas station? We just want to clarify, that he was busted after the manager of the gas station called the cops. Thanks for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
