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Joy Behar Page
Chaz Bono`s Last Dance; The Madoff Mess; Interview With Toby Keith
Aired October 27, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Chaz Bono responds to getting kicked off of "Dancing with the Stars" and all the drama surrounding the show.
Then Bernie Madoff`s wife claims she and Bernie tried to commit suicide once the crimes were exposed. Joy has an exclusive interview with Martin London, the man who found Madoff`s son`s body after his suicide to get his reaction.
Plus Toby Keith is here, Joy wants to hear his take on Occupy Wall Street, the President and gays in the military.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Chaz Bono may not be twirling and dipping any more, at least not on television. I have no idea what he does in his private life. That`s his business.
But he is talking about his experience on Dancing with the Stars" and a whole lot of other things. I`m happy to welcome back to my show, the always outspoken, the lovely and talented Chaz Bono.
CHAZ BONO, ACTIVIST: Thank you.
BEHAR: Happy to have you here Chaz.
BONO: Thanks. It`s good to be here.
BEHAR: So they kicked you off this week. Did you see it coming?
BONO: You know, I got pretty low scores from the judges. So it was definitely a distinct possibility.
BEHAR: But that doesn`t seem to matter on that show.
BONO: I think as time wears on it does.
BEHAR: Oh, yes?
BONO: You know, because if you`re competing against someone who`s getting like 29s and stuff. And also it`s hard, you know, the judges set the tone, and if you really don`t know anything about ballroom dancing, which most of us don`t, you think, they know what they`re saying and that must not be very good.
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: I`m not going to -- I`m not going to --
BEHAR: They know what they`re saying. They don`t know any more than you do, I have a feeling. Maybe Len does.
BONO: Len I think has definitely the most ballroom experience.
BEHAR: Yes. And the other one, the little -- what`s his name?
BONO: Which one? Bruno?
BEHAR: Bruno, yes.
BONO: I don`t really know.
BEHAR: What`s his credential?
BONO: I really don`t know. I did see on the show one season of a picture of him dancing with Elton John on the back of his video. You know, I don`t know what else he did.
BEHAR: I once took ballet classes, can I be a judge?
And Nava -- she`s kind of a nice girl.
BONO: She is a nice girl.
BEHAR: She`s a nice girl but is she a dancer?
BONO: She was a dancer, from what I understand.
BEHAR: I see. All right.
But I mean, you were a fair dancer. It`s not your forte, let`s put it that way.
BONO: No. For somebody with no dance experience and my age and size, I feel like I did fairly good.
BEHAR: Yes. You know, you gave it the old college try.
BONO: I did. I did.
BEHAR: On a scale of one to Kate Gosselin, where would you put yourself? She was the worst one, I think.
BONO: You know, I didn`t see that season.
BEHAR: How about Tom DeLay. One of the worst ones.
BONO: I didn`t see that one either.
BEHAR: So you don`t watch the show?
BONO: I did -- I thought -- mine was -- I was always -- Steve Wozniak was my barometer. I would say to Lacey -- she`s like, oh, that`s really cute. And I was like not Steve Wozniak though, is it?
BEHAR: That was you.
BONO: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: But you made a touching speech on your way out of the show. Let`s watch it.
BONO: I came on this show because I wanted to show America a different kind of man. And I know that if there was somebody like me on TV when I was growing up, my whole life would have been different. And so I dedicate everything I did to all the people out there like me and especially the kids and teens who are struggling. You know, you can have a wonderful, great life and be successful and happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I really like that.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: I like that a lot. I thought that was a touching moment for you and for the kids out there who, you know, who don`t feel that they fit in for whatever the reason.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: That it doesn`t have to be as extreme as what you went through, but even just gay kids who are getting bullied, I mean they need to see it.
BONO: Yes, absolutely.
BEHAR: So I salute you for that.
Now, Keith Ablow, or as we like to call him "A Blow", he said that your being on that show would be bad for kids. What did you think of that?
BONO: I mean I thought it was, you know, ridiculous, of course. But he`s somebody with an agenda. And because he`s a doctor, you know, people think that that`s in a way, somehow to his credibility. But he`s a right wing activist who happens to be a doctor, not the other way around.
BEHAR: I have two words for you, Conrad Murray. I`m just saying, he`s a doctor too.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: It doesn`t mean anything.
Now, the night before you were voted off the show, you were hurt by a comment one of the judges made. Let`s look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like watching a cute little penguin trying to be a big, menacing bird of prey.
BONO: If you`re an overweight woman in this competition, losing weight they love you. If you`re an overweight guy trying to do this competition and getting in shape, they penalize you for it and call you a penguin.
Bruno (EXPLETIVE DELETED) makes comments about me being cute and cuddly in this every -- an ewok with the Princess Leia and this. Like I`m some fat troll dancing with this beautiful woman every week, you know. And I`m sick of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know, I think Bruno is attracted to you, that`s just me.
BONO: No, I don`t think so.
BEHAR: I mean somebody calls somebody cute and cuddly every week, the way he sort of comes on to you.
BONO: I really don`t think so.
BEHAR: Go there for a minute.
BONO: I really don`t think so. I really think I`m the kind of the antithesis of what Bruno is attracted to.
BEHAR: What is he attracted to?
BONO: I`m thinking, you know, skinny little twinks like him.
BEHAR: There you go. Right. He`s not a chubby chaser I guess?
BONO: I don`t think he is. He doesn`t like the bears would be my guess.
BEHAR: Yes. But you know he loves attention. So even when he goes off on people, he just must be on camera. He must jump up, he must be the one, you know?
BONO: Know, I don`t -- I`m so over it at this point. For me, the show was an amazing experience.
BEHAR: It was.
BONO: And I leave with, you know, lifelong friends and live knowing that I was able to withstand so much more than I ever thought I could.
BEHAR: That`s true.
BONO: And I just kept pushing myself and persevering and, you know, the confidence it gave me. It`s truly been a gift.
BEHAR: I said the other day on "The View". I said, Chaz must be thrilled that he`s off the show?
BONO: I wasn`t. I mean again, I`m not like angry or bitter or any of that.
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: Yes. But I`m sad because it`s like, our cast was so close and everybody was always telling us we`re the closest cast there ever was. And it`s like, to know that my friends are back at the rehearsal hall and doing it, and I`m not there, that`s what`s tough.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. You know, I know that you don`t want to talk about Chmerkovskiy, and I won`t.
BONO: About what?
BEHAR: About Chmerkovskiy. Maksim Chmerkovskiy.
BONO: Oh.
BEHAR: I know you`re (INAUDIBLE) but I think -- this is just me, you don`t have to say a word -- I think that this whole acting out that he`s into, it`s my show and all this other stuff. I think that they must have said to him, the ratings might be dipping, geek it up a little, Max. What do you think?
BONO: No. I don`t think so.
BEHAR: No? It`s television.
BONO: It is television, but --
BEHAR: So, he`s just -- I won`t say it. His particular behavior might work in the Ukraine. It doesn`t really work on "Dancing with the Stars".
BONO: I think what happens is, as you go on, you`re really invested in this, and it`s your life. And you know, I think that it`s hard when you feel like you or your partner is getting attacked because we put so much into this.
And I think the one thing that probably won`t happen but the judges could take away, just respectfulness to everybody. Because you do -- you put your life into this. I haven`t had a day off since Labor Day.
BEHAR: Yes. They could be kinder.
BONO: And I put everything that I had -- physically and emotionally into this. And so you want to -- you just want at least to be treated with respect.
BEHAR: Well, I think that it`s totally kosher for them to say, I don`t like your dancing.
BONO: Of course. Absolutely.
BEHAR: And they could be funny about it, and they could be mean. But when they start attacking you physically, I really think they`re off base. And it`s a stupid thing to do on television anyway, because there`s so much more to criticize when people are dancing like klutzes, you know what I mean?
BONO: Of course. In fact only with me I`m sure there was a lot. And I get some. I mean you know, Bruno was or Len talked about, heel leads and you know -- it`s impossible for us to get -- I remember just the hardest part for me was remembering everything at the same time. Because each step you took, you would have to remember what your hands were doing, what your feet were doing.
BEHAR: It`s not easy.
BONO: You know Lacey got into my -- pretty fingers. I never thought about pretty fingers until I got on "Dancing with the Stars", you know. The phrase never entered my mind. And posture and this and --
BEHAR: Moving your body a certain way is like and in certain positions --
BONO: Absolutely. And then with certain dances. One, the Latins you have to lead with your toe. And the ballroom -- it`s impossible, you know, to really be able to get this unless you`re -- there are a few people like JR, I think who`s just, you know -- they`re natural. Amazing.
BEHAR: And Rikki, Rikki`s a natural too.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Rikki is very good.
But I mean I agree with you. I think that they should be kinder just on the basis of the fact that you have to do so much work to get to where you`re going. But Chmerkovskiy when he says to Len Goodman, you need to retire, that`s off-base too.
It`s like take the hits Chmerkovskiy, ok. All right. I`m off of his case now.
BONO: Ok.
BEHAR: Do you -- and the other thing about it is that you seem to think that the penguin remark was about being heavy. I didn`t see it that way.
BONO: It was cumulative for me, really. Because it was -- it was -- you know, I wasn`t -- if he had just said that, it wouldn`t have gotten to me, at all, really. It was that -- it was an ewok one week. It was a basketball another week.
BEHAR: Oh, a basketball.
BONO: Yes -- a penguin. So all of these roundish objects and digs.
BEHAR: Really?
BONO: Yes. And so that`s really what it was.
BEHAR: I don`t blame you.
BONO: If it was one time I really -- and I was frustrated. I was really frustrated because I put a lot into that dance and felt really good about it.
BEHAR: I think you did great.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: You did great. And as I said before, there are young people out there watching and you did a great thing for them.
But before you go, I must ask you about Nancy Grace`s nip slip. Now, she`s a colleague. And I watch very closely because I like her. But I wasn`t there to see the actual nip. You were.
BONO: I didn`t actually. First of all, I have to say that, you know, one of the most wonderful things I got out of this show was my relationship with Nancy Grace. I mean the two of us just fell in love with each other. It`s an odd pairing.
BEHAR: I could see.
BONO: You know, we could leave our spouses potentially.
BEHAR: Really? Oh, boy --
BONO: It could happen.
BEHAR: What about the twins?
BONO: I know, the twins. I like the twins. I`ll take the twins in too.
BEHAR: You`ll take the twins?
BONO: I`ll take the twins.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you, Chaz, very much for coming on.
BONO: Thank you for having me.
BEHAR: And congratulations for the good work you did.
BONO: Thanks.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: On December 11th, 2008 Bernie Madoff was arrested for running the largest Ponzi scheme in history. Two years later on the anniversary of his arrest, his son Mark committed suicide. Now it seems Mark wasn`t the only Madoff who thought about suicide.
Take a look at Ruth Madoff from this Sunday`s "60 Minutes".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH MADOFF, WIFE OF BERNIE MADOFF: I don`t know whose idea it was, but we decided to kill ourselves because it was -- it was so horrendous what was happening. We had terrible phone calls, hate mail just beyond anything. And I said, I can`t -- I just can`t go on any more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me now to talk about this is Martin London, the man who found the body of his late son-in-law Mark Madoff.
Welcome to the show. You want me to call you Marty.
MARTIN LONDON, SON-IN-LAW MARK MADOFF COMMITTED SUICIDE: Please, that`s what I answer to.
BEHAR: Ok. So Marty, Ruth Madoff says that she and Bernie Madoff tried to commit suicide back in 2008. You knew them, were they the type who would kill themselves?
LONDON: I had no idea. Of course, when I knew them I had no idea that he was a monster.
BEHAR: I know, but did you see them as suicidal?
LONDON: No, of course not.
BEHAR: In any way?
LONDON: Of course not, absolutely not.
BEHAR: So you think that she`s just saying that to make them more sympathetic?
LONDON: Listen, I don`t know, Joy, anything about Ruth`s comment about suicide. What I know about suicide is my own experience --
BEHAR: Tell me about it.
LONDON: -- with Mark.
BEHAR: Tell me about it because you, you found your son-in-law`s body.
LONDON: I did.
BEHAR: How did you know something was wrong?
LONDON: He had sent, in effect, a suicide note consisting of three pieces. One piece he sent to Stephanie.
BEHAR: Your stepdaughter.
LONDON: My stepdaughter Stephanie. And it said, "Stephanie I love you." This is at 4:00 in the morning.
BEHAR: Right. She was in Disney World.
LONDON: She was in Disney with her mom and daughter, they were going for a princess vacation to Disney World.
BEHAR: Right. And the baby was in the house?
LONDON: The baby was in the house, 2-year-old Nick. He says in the first note, "Stephanie, I love you." In the second note, he says, "Send somebody to help with Nick." And in the third note, he writes to his lawyer, "Take care of Stephanie and my family."
BEHAR: Ominous.
LONDON: Very ominous, but it`s at 4:00 in the morning. And nobody picks it up at 4:00 in the morning because we think he hanged himself the next minute.
BEHAR: After he sent that out, you think --
LONDON: Yes.
BEHAR: You think he did it then.
LONDON: I didn`t get a call -- Stephanie opens the e-mail at 6:30. I`m asleep at 6:30 Saturday morning. Stephanie gets the e-mail, very nervous, calls Mark, no answer. She says, "Mom, something`s wrong." Mom calls me and says get down there at once.
I think -- now, I had spoken to Mark the night before, at 7:00, I knew he was going out with the guys to have a drink. I get down there, I drive down in a cab, and I think what I`m going to find is a hung-over Mark. And, you know, sleeping it off.
And the baby`s going to be in his crib, and I`m going to do what any grandpa does. I`m going to take the baby. I`m going to change his diaper. I`m going to heat up a bottle. I`m going to give the baby his bottle.
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: I walk into the apartment with a guy who opened the door for me who took one look in there, gave a scream and ran out. I walk in the door --
BEHAR: And you see Mark hanging.
LONDON: And I see Mark hanging there.
BEHAR: From -- it wasn`t a belt.
LONDON: It was a dog leash.
BEHAR: A dog leash. And the baby? Where was the baby?
LONDON: The baby was fast asleep -- thank God -- in his crib.
BEHAR: And what would have happened if the baby woke up?
LONDON: I don`t know. I go to check on the baby instantly. I`m not a coroner. It was very clear to me without going into graphic detail that Mark was dead.
BEHAR: Mark was dead.
LONDON: Dead and it was -- nobody could make that mistake. There`s no question about it.
BEHAR: Do you think he had some feelings that they were closing in on him in the investigation?
LONDON: No, no, no, no. I`ll tell you what he had because I knew what was in Mark`s mind. Mark called me the night before at 7:00, he had just read the headline of a "Wall Street Journal" article. And the headline was really stupid. It said, you know that they`ve arrested new people and new -- they`re aiming at the Madoff kid. He said, "Marty, how am I ever going to regain my reputation? This is hopeless, how can they just say this stuff?"
There`s no basis, and I`m reassuring him. I say, "Mark, it`s all baloney. It`s just press baloney.
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: Pay it no mind. And I thought he had calmed down. But --
BEHAR: You never expected this? Not really.
LONDON: Joy.
BEHAR: Even though he had attempted it before?
LONDON: He had attempted it before.
BEHAR: Which I want to talk to you in the next segment.
I`m going to stop you for a minute because we`re going to take a break and we`ll talk about the first attempt. I want to hear about that. And I want to hear what you think is the reason he did it.
LONDON: Ok.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back.
LONDON: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Martin London and we`re talking about Bernie Madoff. So you don`t -- according to you and according to your daughter Stephanie, Mark was completely innocent. Because people do think -- let me just be the devil`s advocate here. When you hear that Mark committed suicide, you first think to yourself, gee, he must have felt guilty about something?
LONDON: Well, I understand that, and his name is Madoff.
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: The fact is, that Mark was totally and completely betrayed by his father. He was furious with his father. As far as I`m concerned, Bernie could have effectively just plunged a knife into Mark`s chest.
BEHAR: Yes.
LONDON: And Mark wrote in the start of his memoir, he said, "How could my father have done this thing to his son? I don`t understand."
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I understand that they had -- they worked in the same office space sort of --
LONDON: No.
BEHAR: One was on a different floor?
LONDON: They had two different businesses on two different floors.
BEHAR: But let me ask you something, just because I`m curious about this.
LONDON: Yes.
BEHAR: I read somewhere, or somebody said that Mark said to Bernie at some point, you know, if anything happens to you, I don`t know anything about your business. And he said, don`t worry about it.
I don`t 100 percent buy that whole story because if you have a father who is older, and you want to know what`s going to happen to your business. You may not know what it`s about, but you`re concerned that somebody`s going to have to take over that business.
LONDON: Well, that`s because you didn`t --
BEHAR: How much in the dark was he really?
LONDON: Well, ok. First, you have to understand two things, Joy. One, Mark and Andrew ran a totally separate business that Mark is making which has nothing to do with investing anybody`s money.
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: It is true that Mark had more than one fight with Bernie. I mean, Stephanie put it in her book, at the end of (INAUDIBLE); she put it in her book. That he would get frustrated and say, what happens if something happens to you?
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: And Bernie being Bernie would say, "You do your job and I`ll do mine."
BEHAR: Nasty.
LONDON: Now, this is dad. This is his father.
And one can say, "Screw that, dad, I quit." But neither guy said "Screw that, dad, I quit."
BEHAR: It just interests people to know that Bernie Madoff is, I think, a sociopath.
LONDON: Agree.
BEHAR: Someone who has no moral conscience --
LONDON: None.
BEHAR: -- who doesn`t care about people. And yet all of the years on this earth, nobody picked that up.
LONDON: Isn`t that amazing? Including the SEC, the NASD.
BEHAR: What about the family? I mean you`re living with a sociopath, you don`t pick up some hints?
LONDON: Listen, Joy, I invested money.
BEHAR: How much did you love?
LONDON: I lost -- well by the time the people came in it was down to a half a million. But that`s a lot of money for me.
BEHAR: $500,000, that`s a lot of money?
LONDON: $500,000 -- I invested a million, and the organization gave me back a half.
BEHAR: He claims that everybody got their principle back, is that true? How could it be true?
LONDON: It`s a bloody lie.
BEHAR: He`s a liar.
LONDON: And when I went to the him -- you may have heard the story -- I said, "Bernie, your son`s married to my daughter for two years. I`m a piker. I know you deal with millionaires, could I make a little investment in your fund? Would you take a million dollars of my money?" And he said, "I`m sorry Marty, the fund is closed."
BEHAR: Oh, boy. That was part of the shtick.
LONDON: And then he said to me, "But you know, Marty, you`re my meshpukha (ph), how could I say no to you." He took my million dollars and he stole it along with everybody else`s.
BEHAR: Meshpukha for those Gentiles out there -- I`m one of them but I know what meshpukha is --
LONDON: Almost everybody does.
BEHAR: It`s family. It`s family.
(CROSSTALK)
LONDON: It`s extended family.
BEHAR: When we come back, Marty, I want to talk about Ruth and how much you think she knew.
We`ll be right back.
LONDON: Are we going to get to the letter?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Marty London and we`re talking about the crook Bernie Madoff.
Here`s a clip, let`s look at a clip of your stepdaughter Stephanie Madoff Mack on "Good Morning America." She was talking about contacting Bernie after Mark`s suicide. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you reached out to Bernie, who was in jail at the time. You wrote him a letter about it, because you blame him?
STEPHANIE MADOFF MACK: I do. I do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did he respond to the letter you wrote him?
MACK: Well, my letter started off actually as a condolence note, and then I -- and then it got very angry, and I told him how I felt. And his response was that he felt very bad for himself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That says a lot about Bernie. You wrote him a letter too, I understand.
LONDON: I wrote Bernie a letter a week after Mark killed himself. And like you`re supposed to do with letters you write when you`re furious, I put it in a drawer and didn`t send it to him.
BEHAR: You never mailed it.
LONDON: I didn`t mail it for that reason, and also because I know that they monitor all of his mail, and I thought they would never ever give him a letter like this.
BEHAR: You can say it on TV, he`s probably watching.
LONDON: What I wrote to him was, Bernie, while I will not send you pictures of your grandchildren, there is one picture I do want you to see. The last picture of your son Mark. You owe it to his widow, his children, his brother, his mother to try your best to see it in color and in 3-D, to see what I saw when I walked into that apartment at 7:30 a.m. in the morning.
So here is what I wish for you, Bernie. First, I wish you a long life in prison. Second, here`s the plan, Bernie. Every time you sit down to eat, as you pick up your plastic fork, I want you to see your son`s corpse hanging from a rafter directly over your table, right in front of you, Bernie. So at every meal when you pick up that utensil, as you hold it in your hand, ready to eat your prison meal, you see your son Mark. His white sweat socks are swaying ever so gently at your eye level, immediately above your food dish. And as you look up, Bernie, you see your firstborn son hanging there, his head at a left-leaning angle, looking down at you, asking how could you do that to your son, who up until two years before his death had given you the greatest gift, his unconditional love for his father.
BEHAR: I hope he heard that. I hope he heard that.
LONDON: Well, he gets free television, so why shouldn`t he hear it. He gets free psychiatrists, he gets free e-mails, why shouldn`t he hear it? Why isn`t he in a hole where he belongs?
BEHAR: He says that he is happier in prison. He told Barbara Walters he`s happier in prison.
LONDON: Free meals.
BEHAR: Than he was before. He feels safe in prison.
LONDON: His victims are eating -- some of them are eating their dinner out of cat food cans.
BEHAR: And he says -- he put out this statement. He says, "I understand my clients hate me. Their gravy train is over, I can live with that. The average person thinks I robbed widows and orphans. I made wealthy people wealthier." That is not true, but of course what do you expect from him? He`s a liar. I mean, Elie Wiesel lost over $12 million for his foundation, which helps Holocaust survivors.
LONDON: Joy, why would anybody believe one word that Bernie Madoff had to say? It astonishes me that people keep interviewing him. For what reason? You expect truth?
BEHAR: No. I think people are trying to make some kind of sense out of the puzzle of the man.
LONDON: Forget it, he`s an insane psychopath.
BEHAR: Yes. I don`t know if he`s insane, I think he`s a sociopath for sure. Not insane--
LONDON: I don`t know the definition of insane. His prison psychiatrist says he`s OK.
BEHAR: He did say, I believe he said to Barbara, that he`s very sorry, and he takes the blame for Mark`s suicide, but he also said in some -- somewhere, he said that the first attempt that Mark made on his life was right after he had an argument with Stephanie, as if -- so even there he`s deflecting the blame off himself and on to Stephanie.
LONDON: I have got to tell you something, when Mark and Stephanie had an argument about should we speak out or not speak out, it was a matter of great conflict in the family. Should we defend ourselves publicly or not. And Mark left and he went to the hotel room and took pills. He wrote a note. The note didn`t say anything about a fight with Stephanie. The note said, "Bernie, this is what happens when you destroy your sons by your life of deceit. [EXPLETIVE DELETED] you, Bernie." That was Mark`s suicide note. It didn`t work.
BEHAR: And let`s -- before we end this, which is very interesting. I`m happy that you came here to give your point of view, just as we learn some things from Stephanie, and I`ll plug her book as a matter of fact for her.
Ruth Madoff. I know that after this all came to light and the boys were upset, she took Bernie`s side and went to Bernie, which made me think that she knew all about it. What do you think?
LONDON: I don`t know what she knew. I know this, when Mark in October `09 made a serious suicide effort, spent a week in a psychiatric hospital. He said, I will never talk to my mother again as long as she supports that monster by seeing him or whatever. And she knew that, and she continued to see him, and she continued to support him. And then after Mark killed himself, she wrote Stephanie a note and said, oh, how I had wishes -- oh how I had--
BEHAR: How I`d wished.
LONDON: How I wished that I had paid attention to Mark`s request. What a fool I was. I will regret it to my dying day.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, Martin. And the other son, Andrew, seems to be faring better than Mark?
LONDON: Yes.
BEHAR: He wrote another -- he wrote a book. Ruth is on TV. What`s with all this thing all of a sudden? We`ll talk some more some other time. By the way, "The End of Normal" by Stephanie Madoff Mack is in book stores now. OK. I mean, everybody is writing books. I guess--
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC)
BEHAR: That was country star Toby Keith`s hit song "Made in America" about what he calls a disappearing America. It`s on his new album, "Clancy`s Tavern," and he`s here with me now. Welcome to the show, Toby. Congratulations on the album. It`s a hit.
TOBY KEITH, COUNTRY MUSIC STAR: Thank you.
BEHAR: And everybody loves it. They`re all talking about it, the video, the whole bit, terrific.
KEITH: I think "Red Solo Cups," the new one, the video that`s virally -- that`s an adult nursery rhyme that they`re talking about. But I liked that one. That was my 29th No. 1 song.
BEHAR: We`re going to show that later too. That`s the one they were talking about too.
KEITH: Yes, "Made in America" was our 29th No. 1, and --
BEHAR: Yes.
KEITH: -- in 16 years.
BEHAR: You talk about disappearing America. So talk to me, what are you trying to say there?
KEITH: We globalized a little too much. Like, that song isn`t necessarily about my father, but it`s about everybody`s father -- everybody that`s grown today that has a father that age, that generation. They could go to the bank or the pharmacy or the grocery store, and a lot of times the grocer or the pharmacist or the banker would be second generation in that business, and you could shake hands and say, hey, I need you to cover me, I`m getting a new pickup, a car. I need a loan for my farm or my business, and you had a handshake and a history with the guy. And now it`s -- now we`re globalized and everything`s corporate, and it`s worldwide, and we`ve lost all of those little significant pieces to our country.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s true.
KEITH: Do you believe that? I believe that.
BEHAR: Yes, I think it`s true. But you`re talking about that feeling of a small town almost.
KEITH: Right.
BEHAR: But that also, also people are getting greedy -- I think corporations are getting greedy. Because they want more and more profit. They can get the same dress made for 10 cents an hour, over here it`s $10 an hour, and they don`t want to take the hit.
KEITH: Can`t do it. I tried to open a factory. I met a guy in California who designs clothes. And he said I want to do some -- he heard the song and said, I want to do some "made in America" jeans, inexpensive that everyday people can wear. And I want you to promote them and be my partner. And I live in Oklahoma, and they said there`s a factory there that is out of business, that could put 200 to 300 workers back together and put them back to work. And as a nonprofit ran cost only, we were $6 or $7 dollars higher than the average jean in the major retail stores.
BEHAR: Even as a nonprofit?
KEITH: Nonprofit.
BEHAR: So there`s no way out of this.
KEITH: There`s no way out of this.
BEHAR: It`s really a tough --
KEITH: We`re in a bad upside down loan (ph) here in America.
BEHAR: Well, so do you identify? Or what do you think about the people who are doing the Occupy Wall Street protests?
KEITH: You know, I don`t know much about Occupy Wall Street, but the -- and the pictures I`ve seen of it, the few pictures I have seen of it, I have a difficult time -- threading all the signs together, there`s a lot of different beef coming from a lot of different places. But I mean, as bad a shape as we`re in right now, I don`t know what it`s going to take. But at some point we`re going to figure out what we`re going to do. We have got to have more businesspeople with the sense, business sense and the know- how, and the I.Q. to operate this country, and less politicians. BEHAR: Yes, and then you have -- on the other hand you have got the Tea Party. Do you think they`re similar in any way?
KEITH: I think they`re all -- all those parties have an extreme nature to them. I think anybody who -- I mean, from one end to the other, I think they`re all equally have some extreme sides to them.
BEHAR: Well, at least -- the thing they have in common is that they`re out there protesting. You know, and I appreciate that. I think that they`re different, though. The Wall Street people are angry with the fact that they`re the 99 percent of the people in this country, and 1 percent controls the wealth, so they`re mad at Wall Street and they`re mad at that. But Tea Party seems to be mad at the government. So they do have different reasons that they`re angry. But one thing they do have in common, is that they`re both pissed off.
KEITH: They speak out, don`t they.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. And you know --
KEITH: I`d rather be pissed off than pissed on.
BEHAR: That`s right. That`s a good song for you to write. Have you written that?
KEITH: No, but I`m writing it right here, when we`ll leave.
BEHAR: Bette Midler was here yesterday, and she said that she wants to go down and bring the port-a-potties and buy some port-a-potties for them. What do you think, you want to buy something for them?
KEITH: We can go down and cook`em some ribs or something.
BEHAR: Some ribs. They could use that, I think.
KEITH: Give them a beer. They`re tense.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Now, you were in Iraq this year I understand for your ninth USO tour. And you know, miracle of miracles, finally they`re coming home these guys.
KEITH: It`s a beautiful thing.
BEHAR: Obama is bringing them back.
KEITH: Beautiful thing.
BEHAR: You know, are you happy?
KEITH: I`m happy they`re coming home. They accomplished any missions that our country sent them on, or whatever their missions were laid out to do. I can`t see it going over there nine years and doing 180 shows, next year we`ll be our 10th year. And I`ve watched every year of that thing over there. And I can`t see any missions left to accomplish. I hope that the Iraqi people get their stuff together and become a nation again that can be another productive country like the rest of them.
BEHAR: We hope so. I mean, the GOP candidates are already all over Obama for pulling out. But it was Bush`s plan. Bush had a plan to pull out in 2011, just like this. So it seems like they just get ticked off at him no matter what he does.
KEITH: Yeah, well, you know, as long as it`s your guy in the White House, you get -- you can rationalize things like that a little better. And if it`s the other guy`s team, you know, then it`s -- then it`s easier to gripe. But it`s difficult being the president of the United States, I don`t care who you are.
BEHAR: It is a tough job.
KEITH: It`s a tough-ass job.
BEHAR: I don`t know why anybody wants it. I mean, I remember when Obama won the election, one of the headlines on the newspapers was, "Black Man Gets Worst Job in America."
KEITH: Have you noticed that whoever takes it in our lifetime anyway, whoever takes the position, it doesn`t take them long to start aging, does it?
BEHAR: I know.
KEITH: It`s a difficult--
BEHAR: He`s already getting white hair. The poor guy.
KEITH: He was such a young rock star two years ago.
BEHAR: Wasn`t he?
KEITH: You know, and now they`ve beat him down.
BEHAR: They beat him down.
KEITH: They beat him down.
BEHAR: But he wants another term.
KEITH: Well, power to him. I`d have to take a pay cut.
BEHAR: So you know, have you been watching the Republican debates at all?
KEITH: I haven`t. I`ve been on my USO -- I mean, my USA tour, and I`ve been doing 65 cities since July. So I`ve watched very little television.
BEHAR: Have you seen Herman Cain`s ads? Have you seen--
KEITH: I`ve heard a little bit about Herman Cain. Is there any other Democrats getting up?
BEHAR: No.
KEITH: So it`s just going to be -- he`s the guy?
BEHAR: They`re against each other at the moment, you have Romney and you have Huntsman, the two Mormons. You have Perry.
KEITH: I met with Perry.
BEHAR: You did? What did you think of him?
KEITH: He`s from Texas.
BEHAR: He`s a good old boy.
KEITH: He`s from Texas, and he was up in my home state, and doing some fund-raising stuff, and wanted to meet some of the people that live there. And coach Switzer (ph), who was the Oklahoma football coach for years, said, come with me, I want you to meet this guy. I sat down with him for 10 or 15 minutes. I don`t know that much about him. I know he likes to hunt and fish. And seems like he`s outdoorsy--
BEHAR: There`s the qualifications for president right there.
KEITH: But -- well, it`s more than some of them, I`ll tell you that.
BEHAR: The thing with him that drives me crazy is that, you know, his home state of Texas is going up in flames, but he doesn`t believe in global warming. You know, at some point he`s going to have to deal with that. Then you have you know, like your Michele Bachmann, who doesn`t believe in evolution. I mean, they`re anti-science, a lot of these people. And I don`t think that`s good for the country, do you?
KEITH: Well, that`s why I`m a -- I was a Democrat and my father was a Democrat, and my grandfather.
BEHAR: Isn`t that odd for a country family to be Democrats?
KEITH: No, Southern Democrats is more the norm.
BEHAR: Is it?
KEITH: Yeah. But now, to support the troops and things like that, it`s more the norm.
BEHAR: Of course.
KEITH: To support the military in the South. But -- or in my field anyway. It`s -- I don`t know, I got four or five years ago, I just went, you know what, I don`t like either side. I don`t. I don`t like either side. I`m a registered independent. And I`m the first independent in my family. And my brother has been moved out of our house since we were kids. And he lives in Florida, and he`s a Baptist preacher, and he`s a Republican. And he`s the only Republican ever in our family.
BEHAR: Really?
KEITH: And everybody else was Democrats as far back as I know.
BEHAR: It seems like the Democratic Party lost a lot of their constituents in the past 30 years or 40 years, and now maybe you guys are coming back.
KEITH: Well, I think the conservative, more middle-of-the-road Democrats, it got to a point where they didn`t care if you were a Democrat or a Republican. Whatever your biggest voice was, which mine was supporting the troops, whatever comes out as your biggest voice and you have a platform, you get painted with that brush. And I found out real quick back in 2003, when I wrote this little song I was going to play on the USO tour, called "Courtesy of Red, White and Blue," that all of the extreme left was hating on it, and all the extreme right on it was using me as their poster child. And I felt like I was getting used over here and hammered over here, and I got caught in the middle. And I just went, you know what, it took me about three months to figure out whether I was going to land on my feet and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, that happens to celebrities. Like I remember Bruce Springsteen, "Born in the USA," I believe it was Reagan -- was it Reagan, I believe -- who used it and he didn`t like that. So you know. OK. We`ll have more with Toby Keith in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC)
BEHAR: That was a cut from the Toby Keith`s "Red Solo Cup" from his new album, "Clancy`s Tavern." I understand, Toby, that they`re going to use that song on "Glee."
KEITH: I just heard that this morning. That`s a square peg in a round hole right there.
BEHAR: Why?
KEITH: Well, I don`t know that much about "Glee," but I think it`s a high school kids and maybe some kind of choir play or something, right?
BEHAR: Toby, it`s the gayest show on television.
KEITH: Is it?
BEHAR: Besides this one.
KEITH: All right, well, then I`m sorry, then it will work. I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: It is the gayest show. But you`re a big supporter of gay rights, right?
KEITH: Doesn`t matter to me what they do.
BEHAR: It doesn`t matter to you.
KEITH: I don`t care one way or the other. You think -- why should I waste my time -- it`s a piece of paper for them to get married and all that -- come on.
BEHAR: Come on.
KEITH: What are you going to make them move out of the house, too? I don`t give a damn.
BEHAR: A lot of people who are very self-righteous about that, they`re all about marriage and commitment, so here are people who want to get married and be committed, have kids, and they say no, the sanctity of marriage. Whose marriage are we talking about? Mark Sanford`s? You know? But let`s say -- I see where you`re at, and let`s say you have the opportunity to sit down with Obama. Is there anything you`d like to tell him? Because maybe he`s watching this show. Yeah.
KEITH: Well, I really appreciate, I really appreciate the fact that he didn`t come in -- I know a lot of his supporters were upset with him because he didn`t go right in and start whacking the troops --
BEHAR: What do you mean, whacking the troops?
KEITH: Bringing them home, cutting them out--
BEHAR: Right away.
KEITH: Right away. You know, in Afghanistan, he -- the information I got was that the forces were tripled after -- at a later date after he took office. And that, to me, shows at least sensibility enough to sit down, listen to reason and go, what do I got to do to end this thing? And they go, first thing we`ve got to do is accomplish some stuff before we abandon it. And so he listened to his national security adviser and some people that he had in --
BEHAR: And the generals, I think he listens to the generals.
KEITH: Oh, no question. And when you sit down behind that desk and you`re no longer a senator, you`re now the man, they open a new book up.
BEHAR: It`s true.
KEITH: And when you page through there, you go, damn.
BEHAR: But did you ever think he would have the testicularity that he has, of capturing Osama bin Laden, working so that Gadhafi gets his, you know? And I mean, he is one tough hombre.
KEITH: The military part of it has been wonderful. The economy, though, because it`s what I`m worried most about -- I know our military is going to be good. I see them every day. I worry most about the economy.
BEHAR: It is, it`s true.
KEITH: The economy is terrible.
BEHAR: All right, Toby, I could talk to you all day, but unfortunately we`ve got to end this.
KEITH: OK.
BEHAR: Very nice to see you.
KEITH: Nice to see you.
BEHAR: Thanks for doing this. Toby Keith`s 16th album, "Clancy`s Tavern" is out now. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
