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Joy Behar Page
Herman Cain Controversy; Religion Panel
Aired November 08, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, one day after a fourth woman comes forward to accuse Cain of sexual harassment, Cain vows to set the record straight. Joy will talk to Gloria Allred, attorney for that fourth accuser.
Plus Joy speaks to Rabbi Shmuley and Father Edward Beck about Occupy Wall Street and the moral issues underlying America`s income gap. That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: GOP presidential hopeful Herman Cain is going on the offensive as he tries to shoot down allegations of sexual harassment from several women. Here he is at a press conference a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The charges and the accusations, I absolutely reject. They simply didn`t happen. They simply did not happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me now to discuss these developments are Marc Lamont Hill, professor of anthropology at Columbia University and host of "Our World" with Black Enterprise; and Hilary Rosen, CNN political contributor.
Ok. Well, Cain came out swinging at the press conference today. Let`s listen to what he said about Bialek. Watch.
CAIN: I saw Miss Allred and her client yesterday in that news conference for the very first time. As I sat in my hotel room with a couple of my staff members, as they got to the microphone, my first response in my mind and reaction was, I don`t even know who this woman is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Sharon Bialek, she said that she and her boyfriend met Cain together. And yet he says that he never heard of her. And what happens if the boyfriend comes forward? The other question on that is, is there any way to check the records at the hotel? I`m just curious because Sharon Bialek, she said that she was upgraded and that Cain told her he had done that. Is there any way to check that?
HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: You would think there might be. But you know, there`s -- Twitter is afire over the last two hours with people saying that there may actually be pictures of the two of them together over the course of her time at the National Restaurant Association and other places.
He`s just really not smart to go out and say that he`s never seen her or doesn`t remember her or she just doesn`t exist. Deny the charges. Herman Cain has just decided stone-walling is going to be his strategy. And so he`s gone memory blank. It`s a mistake.
BEHAR: Well, you know, it could work.
MARC LAMONT HILL, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: It might.
BEHAR: It might work. Tell us about that, Marc.
LAMONT HILL: Well, you know, first of all, taking the position that I`ve done absolutely nothing wrong, nothing inappropriate in some ways positions him well. Because even if it comes out that he said something or did something. He can say I didn`t find that appropriate at all. I think that was totally reasonable.
The place where he may have backed himself into a corner though was with this last woman where he says he never even seen her or met her. That`s a heck of a claim to make. And 18 years ago, we did have computers, we did have digital cameras. If there any evidence, every single person who`s on either side of the aisle who doesn`t like him -- and that`s plenty of people -- are going to be scurrying, looking for pictures or evidence that he had some interaction with the woman. And once that comes out, his goose is cooked.
BEHAR: You know, I love that he said at the press conference that he would take a lie detector test.
ROSEN: Right.
BEHAR: Do you think that`s ever going to happen, Hilary?
ROSEN: Never going to happen. Because immediately afterwards he said, if I thought it was appropriate. He`s already said it`s not appropriate. So, you know, he`s no Justin Bieber, right?
BEHAR: And I`m watching that show "Homeland" and you can lie on the detector anyway.
Ok. The identity of the first woman to accuse Herman Cain of sexual harassment became public. Her Karen Kraushaar (ph) and she`s the director of communications at a bureau within the Treasury Department.
Now Marc, during this press conference, he said her accusations were baseless. So everyone else is lying and he`s the only one telling the truth, according to what he says.
LAMONT HILL: Yes, it`s one big right wing, left wing conspiracy. I don`t get it. What he doesn`t seem to understand is that nobody on the left want him to lose. We all want him to win. There`s no Democrat in the world who`s trying to set Herman Cain up. We want him to be the nominee.
ROSEN: That`s exactly right.
LAMONT HILL: You know what I mean? So I think that`s wrong.
BEHAR: Right.
LAMONT HILL: As far as the settlement information goes, he keeps saying that the settlement was -- or the claims were determined to be baseless. But he has no information, no evidence. All he has to do is go to the restaurant association and get the file. He keeps acting as if he doesn`t know anything and he can`t give us any information which sounds really shady.
ROSEN: So you know, I talked to a couple of people who are close to Cain --
BEHAR: Right.
ROSEN: -- over the course of the day. And here`s really what he`s done today. What he said is he can`t go in and talk about this. Any sort of facts because the facts are not good.
So what he`s done is he`s turned this into a war with the media. And that works really well in Republican primaries because the conservative Republicans hate the media. They hate people like you and me and Marc. And they think that we`re all out to get them.
BEHAR: I don`t understand why. I`m so adorable and so are you.
ROSEN: We`re so adorable.
And so they decided that this is the only way he`s going to continue on this primary is to make this be about his war with, you know, the lefty media. And it may just work for him for several more weeks. It`s raising him a lot of money.
BEHAR: Well, you know, here`s the thing, though. He says the Democrats are after him, everybody`s after him. Why don`t they go after Romney then? Why him? Romney is really the one that -- all the Republicans I speak to say that they want and think Romney will be the candidate. So why not go after him?
ROSEN: You know, as a Democrat, I relish the chance to run against either Romney or Cain. I think they`re both flawed. We have Wall Street Romney. We have, you know, crazy Cain. It`s like, take our pick. There`s no way that Democrats are kind of behind this. Marc`s exactly right. This is -- if anybody is behind it, it`s the Republican primary candidates who hate the fact that he`s raised more money in the last few weeks than anybody else and that he caught up to Romney, you know, in the polls.
BEHAR: Well, he`s staying in the race. And here`s what Cain said about staying in the race. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAIN: And as far as these accusations causing me to back off and maybe withdraw from this presidential primary race, not going to happen. Because I`m doing this for the American people and for the children and the grandchildren.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Don`t do us any favors, ok? Leave my grandchildren out of this.
He`s sticking to his guns. I mean he is planning to go full-speed ahead. And he said, these allegations came out, they`re all false, a few more will come out and they will be false. I love that.
ROSEN: They`ll be false. I`m going to pre-butt you every day; no matter what you say about me it`s never going to be true. So the one day that I want you to say something true about me, forget it. I`ve lost my credibility.
LAMONT HILL: And it`s a great strategy.
BEHAR: It is?
LAMONT HILL: It`s a great strategy. If you`re going to run for office, this is the way you go. You say, look a bunch of stuff is going to be said about me, none of it is true. Vote for me anyway.
BEHAR: Now, let`s go back to 1992 when Bill Clinton was running for president and there were allegations about him, actually affair with Jennifer Flowers and Bill and Hillary answered those allegations during a "60 Minutes" interview. That worked for Clinton.
Do you think that Mrs. Cain should come out and back up her husband? It worked for Schwarzenegger, I remember Maria came out and she stood by her man also. What do you think?
ROSEN: The stonewall for Bill Clinton did help and Hillary Clinton being out there vouching for his character helped. I`ve been told that the Cain camp strategy is to see how this plays out for the next 24 hours and that Mrs. Cain is likely to do an interview herself, over the next 48 hours, to sort of vouch for her husband`s character.
That she is the kind of -- she was enthusiastic about him running. She wasn`t a reluctant wife at all in this campaign. So I expect to see her out in the next week defending her husband.
BEHAR: Do you have anything to say about that, Marc?
LAMONT HILL: I think you don`t lead with the wife. That smells of desperation, when you have to have the sit-down with the wife. Usually it doesn`t work out well for your marriage. Usually, soon after that, you end up with a divorce. It`s better to just let Herman take care of this himself. If he starts to sag in the polls a bit, then you bring the wife out. Then you get that extra assurance.
And the other wild card here is we don`t know who his wife is, how well she`ll play in front of the cameras and how convincing she will be and whether she believes Herman herself.
BEHAR: Do you think he has -- all these women are the same type so far, I`ve seen their pictures. Marc, what do you make of that?
LAMONT HILL: It`s Tiger Woods syndrome. This is what happens. They all come out and they all look the same. Again, it makes it seem like there`s a pattern. So either there`s a vast conspiracy of picking up a bunch of women who all look the same or there`s something legitimate here to this. I think it`s the latter.
ROSEN: It`s -- look, they`re really going after Gloria Allred, right?
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
ROSEN: They`re just -- they`re doing that. And if I were them, I would stop. That is going to make her more determined than ever. If Gloria Allred has her way over the next week, she is going to get four women standing up in a row, all talking about this. They`re going to be believable.
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
ROSEN: Cain, I thought was really dismissive of the women today. That`s not going to go over well. Don`t take on Gloria.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Thank you guys, very much.
And next, I`ll talk with the famous Gloria Allred about her press conference with the fourth woman who came forward.
Ok. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up next, Joy speaks to Gloria Allred, attorney for the fourth Herman Cain accuser.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Herman Cain is not only fighting Mitt Romney and Rick Perry, he`s now fighting an even tougher opponent, Gloria Allred who is representing the fourth woman to level sexual harassment charges against him. Joining me is Gloria Allred, who`s also the host of "We the people with Gloria Allred". A pleasure to have you here Gloria.
GLORIA ALLRED, LAWYER FOR CAIN ACCUSER: Thank you for inviting me Joy.
BEHAR: Ok let`s go people out there are saying your client Sharon Bialek has an agenda; that there could be money coming down the pipe. How do you answer that?
ALLRED: Well, she does have an agenda and the agenda Joy is to tell the truth. Tell the truth about her experience as she knows it, as she`s lived it and to help to give a voice to women whom she alleges has been the victim of sexual harassment.
What we have right now, is a woman who has -- at great personal cost to herself because she is being scrutinized very closely.
BEHAR: Yes.
ALLRED: Her privacy is being invaded, come forward and she knows that there are at least four other women who allege that Cain sexually harassed them, who for whatever reason have not been able to come forward or have chosen not to come forward and she has decided to come and support them and to help empower other women and to tell the truth.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok.
ALLRED: And now of course there`s a hit campaign against her for actually speaking.
BEHAR: Of course -- of course well, that -- you expected that, I`m sure, right?
ALLRED: Of course and she did.
BEHAR: And she did.
But this is what I heard from some of the men that I`ve been talking to, not necessarily in this building but in the street, let`s say. And they`re saying that there is money coming down. That she`s broke, she`s been bankrupt a couple times and that she`s going to make money on a book deal. And that this is a great way to make money really fast.
I mean, here`s your chance to respond to that.
ALLRED: Well Joy, she has, Sharon has like millions of Americans experience many financial challenges and has some debts and some of which were incurred because she helped to pay for her mom`s medical bills after her mom died.
But in addition -- but the point is that, she could have sold her story in the first place instead of having the news conference yesterday that we had. It had value. She could have gotten money for that, for interviews connected with that. She chose not to do that.
She wants people to know she only has one reason for doing this. And that is to tell the truth. And that`s why she did it this way even though it would have helped to have money. She passed on that idea because she wants people to know the real reason. And that is just --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok.
ALLRED: -- to tell people what happened.
BEHAR: So she probably will turn down a book deal in the future, is that what you`re saying?
ALLRED: You know I have no idea about the future. I don`t have any knowledge of any book deals thing being offered to her.
BEHAR: Not yet.
ALLRED: Any trips to the moon or anything else. And I just think that`s kind of preposterous and kind of a red herring put out there by Cain supporters and it`s not something that`s ever come to my attention or her.
BEHAR: Ok now -- ok let`s talk about you for a second. Because there`s talk that you gave money to Obama and may have an agenda. Is there a conflict of interest there at all or what?
ALLRED: Let`s go to the heart of it. What the supporters of Herman Cain are saying is that somehow I support Democrats, which I have, and also some Republicans. And that somehow this is some kind of Democratic plot. This is complete and utter nonsense.
First of all Sharon contacted me.
And secondly, I have criticized Democratic men when they have acted in sexually inappropriate way ways with women.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right, of course.
ALLRED: Like Congresswoman Anthony Weiner.
BEHAR: Right.
ALLRED: I did a big news press conference with a woman that he sent sexually inappropriate texts to. I did that about a month or two ago in New York where my client said he should resign. I supported her in that. He did resign the next day. I`ve also criticized President Clinton for when he lied to the American people about Monica Lewinsky, lied under oath.
So yes, I don`t care if men are Democrat, I don`t care if they`re Republican, if they`re rich, they`re powerful or famous, if they have caused women to be the victims of their injustice, if they have sexually harassed women, raped women, committed acts of child sexual abuse; whatever injustice it is, I will stand up for my clients.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
ALLRED: I will support them.
BEHAR: Ok, you know I have to say Gloria that this doesn`t seem like a simple sexual harassment allegation. It`s more like an assault from the way Miss Bialek explained it. I`m just saying, from my point of view it sounded like an assault.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But here -- go ahead.
ALLRED: It felt like a sexual assault to her.
BEHAR: Yes right. Ok now here`s what Herman Cain had to say about Mrs. Bialek -- Miss Bialek, her charges on the "Jimmy Kimmel Show" last night. Which is why did he do that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAIN: The feelings that you have when you know that all of this is totally fabricated, you go from anger, then you go -- you get disgusted, and then when it was all over with, and I said, well, I know what we`ve got to do because there`s not an ounce of truth in all these accusations and my team is putting this stuff together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok so at this point, it`s a he said-she said because there was nobody else in the car even though she did tell her boyfriend about it without giving details and allegedly some other guy she spoke to, right? Where do we go from here now if it`s just he said-she said?
ALLRED: Well, we do have those two declarations under penalty of perjury from her boyfriend who is a pediatrician and from a very prominent businessman. And by the way her boyfriend was with her when she met Herman Cain, talked to Herman Cain, he met Herman Cain. And Herman Cain was aware that she had a boyfriend.
So I don`t know what he means by there`s not an ounce of truth it. Is he denying he ever met Sharon? Is he denying he talked to her on numerous occasions? Is he denying that he met her boyfriend?
BEHAR: Yes.
ALLRED: Is he denying that he had dinner with her, that he got in the car with her. These are kinds of interesting questions that need to be posed to him when he says there`s not an ounce of truth in this.
BEHAR: Right.
ALLRED: A kind of a strange statement.
BEHAR: Well but a lot of people -- there are some other thing people are saying to me today -- I`m giving you what I`m hearing you know. And what they`re saying is, "That guy -- if that happened and I were her boyfriend, I would have gone to Washington and I would have given him a slug or whatever".
The boyfriend did not do that. Can you tell me why he might not have done it?
ALLRED: No, I -- I you know I don`t advocate violence.
BEHAR: Of course not.
ALLRED: Or self-help. So I can`t -- I don`t represent the boyfriend. I have spoken to the boyfriend but I didn`t ask him why he didn`t commit an act of violence and I wouldn`t encourage that for anybody else.
BEHAR: Or just confront -- confront Herman Cain. But I -- I think that -- from what I heard in the press conference that Miss Bialek gave, she said that she did not really give him the details. I think possibly, he might have been more upset if she had told him that he allegedly put his hand under her skirt and put his head in -- her head in his lap which sounded more like assault. He might have been more proactive possibly.
ALLRED: Yes, I don`t know what the boyfriend would have done but I can tell you what she`s doing and she`s standing up for herself. And I`m so proud of her that she`s doing so.
And let me just say this. When people say ok, you know when the campaign is trying to attack her, attack me -- that really doesn`t deal with the issue.
What about these allegations of four women --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
ALLRED: -- that he sexually harassed them? Why is he not dealing with the specifics? Why doesn`t he tell everyone what these other women allege that he has done? Why doesn`t he come clean?
Because that`s what Sharon wants is for him to come clean and tell the truth and take responsibility for what he`s done. And she`s very disappointed that he hasn`t taken the opportunity to do that.
Now is the time. And if all these allegations of these women are true, he is lying to the American people and he has no respect for the dignity and rights of women.
BEHAR: Thanks Gloria, very much for coming on.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back and we`re continuing our conversation on Herman Cain. Joining me again is Hilary Rosen, CNN political contributor. You watched the interview I did with Gloria and she basically is saying there is no lawsuit. There doesn`t seem to be any financial motive. She doesn`t think that there`ll be a book or there`s no book deal right now.
Would you be surprised to hear about a book deal coming down the pike?
ROSEN: Well, I would. I also actually think it`s probably not enough for a book deal. I`m not sure what this woman would have to say that would fill an entire book.
BEHAR: Good point.
ROSEN: Unless it was a really, really long dinner. I think that they`re doing this to Gloria because they want to undermine her.
BEHAR: Exactly.
ROSEN: And that`s exactly the point.
BEHAR: And they`re saying the woman was bankrupt. A lot of people are.
ROSEN: Right. I think that charge played really differently today than it might have two years ago.
BEHAR: Exactly.
ROSEN: You know, people thought, well, why would you attack someone for not having money these days because most people are struggling?
BEHAR: And she admitted, Gloria, that she gave money to the Obama campaign. But she didn`t see a conflict of interest because she went after Anthony Weiner with tremendous vehemence and Clinton also. So -- but is that a good enough answer from her?
ROSEN: I think she`s answered it. Ultimately this is not about Gloria Allred. And the point that they`re trying to make this be about her only says that they`re doing everything they can to sort of attack whatever icons they think are going to sort of help them distract people from what is actually going on. It may work for a while with their base.
BEHAR: Let me talk of a woman who`s in the business; who`s in offices -- and me, too, I`ve been in many, many jobs over the years.
ROSEN: Right.
BEHAR: I`ve been like harassed over the years by chairman of a department when I was a teacher, by a comedy manager at a comedy club. I handled it. But there was no idea I would report it, you know. A lot of the people who are against her, Bialek, Sharon Bialek are saying why didn`t she come out before? Why did she wait all this time? Same accusation they gave against Anita Hill. What do you say to that?
ROSEN: Well, like you, I used to work in the music business, that`s more sexist than most businesses that existed. I think the difference is look, if the head of a record company that you know, attacked me in the hotel room ever ran for president and was actually in charge of creating laws that were protecting women, I`d probably come forward then even though this was 15 or 20 years ago.
I think that`s the difference here. This guy is trying to be the President of the United States, somebody who has sort of moral authority and legal opportunity to protect people, to help people or to hurt them. That`s a very powerful place to be.
BEHAR: You know, another interesting thing, I was reading in "The Washington Post" that this 9-9-9 plan of his will hurt poor and middle income women more than anybody else.
ROSEN: Right.
BEHAR: And so he really is not an advocate for women. Why would women support him, even on the right? I really don`t understand why they would but they are.
ROSEN: I think that when you get to a general election or -- look, women are majority voters. Nobody seems to be talking about that all day. The majority of Republican voters are women and the majority of all voters in a general election are women. This is not going to sit well. He may get through a primary. He may raise a lot of money for people who hate Mitt Romney. But over the long term, this is not going to sit well.
BEHAR: Ok. I want to see the lie detector test. I really want to watch that.
ROSEN: Dream on, Joy.
BEHAR: Thank you Hilary, very much.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: People are suffering economically more than any time in recent memory while the wealthy and powerful seem to turn a deaf ear. Looking for help from leadership from political leaders? Good luck. Herman Cain is being accused of sexual misconduct, while other leaders, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who stepped down today, I understand, or he`s retiring, comes to mind, as another one with his bunga-bunga parties. And it just goes on. So is there a global moral failing going on in the world? And who better to ask than my three favorite religious figures. Father Edward Beck is the religion contributor for ABC News and the host of the Sunday mass on ABC Family Channel. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is the author of "10 Conversations You Need to Have With Yourself." And Imam Johari Abdul- Malik is the outreach director of the Dar al-Hijrah Islamic Center.
IMAM JOHARI ABDUL-MALIK, DAR AL-HIJRAH ISLAMIC CENTER: You got it.
BEHAR: I got it? Yes! Can I just say, the imam is the sharpest dresser. Just saying. OK.
ABDUL-MALIK: Thank you very much.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, "10 CONVERSATIONS YOU NEED TO HAVE WITH YOURSELF": He has more leeway.
BEHAR: He has more leeway in his outfits?
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: Colorful yarmulke.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean, the hat, the whole thing is simply stunning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very smart.
BEHAR: OK. Let`s go here. We have Herman Cain, Berlusconi, Clinton, Weiner. To name a few. What`s going on out there? One of you.
BOTEACH: I have long said that men do not cheat on their wives and they don`t engage in sexual scandal because of arrogance or entitlement. The exact opposite is true. These are broken men with no self-esteem, and politics draws a substantially high number of them. They need young, attractive women to make them feel special. And they need the electorate to make them feel special.
And because we never talk about male brokenness in society, we just talk about male success, and because men are only judged by how much money they have in the bank and not how they treat women, that`s why they are allowed to get away with it.
BEHAR: How much do you think religion contributes to that? I mean, women are subjugated in religion, as far as I can see. In the Catholic religion, women are not allowed to be priests.
FATHER EDWARD BECK: Watch it, watch it.
BEHAR: I`m just saying factual information here.
BECK: However--
BEHAR: In a -- wait a minute. I`m going further. In the Jewish religion, you have the women staying in the back of the shul while the men get all the attention.
BOTEACH: Not my shul.
BEHAR: OK, not in--
BOTEACH: In my shul, they sit side by side, they get up and give lectures just like anybody else.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: Our religion commands a man to respect his wife more than himself.
BEHAR: OK, but there is something in the Torah or some place, I`m not familiar -- wait a second, I want to straighten this out -- where a man says thank you, God, for not making me a woman. What type of thing is that, to have in the scriptures?
BOTEACH: That has always been interpreted to me as thanking for not having the pains of childbirth and things like that. But there are so many things in the religion that show that women are actually higher. For example, the sabbath day is called the bride of the week. It`s the holiest day of the week. The feminine passive is superior to the masculine aggressive. Judaism begins with this premise that men are more broken and not more naturally spiritual and they need more commandments in order to be holier.
BEHAR: All right. What about your religion, Islam?
ABDUL-MALIK: I think in the same way Islam is misunderstood, and in many places where women have been educated, they move ahead. The first country to have a woman head of state wasn`t the United States. Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, has had a Muslim head of state.
BEHAR: So you`re saying when the flock is ignorant, this is what happens?
ABDUL-MALIK: This is what happens.
BEHAR: But it`s in the scriptures, in many--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Come on.
ABDUL-MALIK: You can`t quote.
BEHAR: Because I`m not a religion fanatic.
ABDUL-MALIK: And I`m saying to you that this (inaudible) have hijacked these issues, and largely men, because of this sort of male feeling of superiority, they have subjugated women.
BEHAR: Yes.
ABDUL-MALIK: And they use religion and the interpretation--
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: This is way off the topic. There is no indication that with any of these men, these political leaders that you mentioned, their religion is a part of their harassment.
BEHAR: They call themselves -- Herman Cain is a religious guy.
BECK: Yes, but you`re saying the religion causes the abuse?
BEHAR: No, I`m just saying that it doesn`t help the situation when religion preaches against women.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: This is a human issue and it is a power issue. And I think we see it in men like this because they get the spotlight and it gets reported. I think this is very, very common in our society. I think we don`t deal well with our sexual selves. And everybody has these hidden secrets in their closets, and these people who get well vetted, suddenly it`s all out in the open and we see it. But I think it is a lot more common than gets reported.
BEHAR: Unfortunately, I think that`s true.
BOTEACH: The fact is, that religion say that marriage is what is sacred. And one of the Ten Commandments is you can`t commit adultery. On the contrary, religion is always being this voice in the ears of men that you have to treat your wife as the one and only, with primacy and exclusivity. You`ve got to put her first and you have to dismiss all others. And the fact is, we live in a society where the exact opposite is true. On the contrary, men are allowed to have harems as long as they have a lot of money. They are a lot of dumped wives who have stood by their side for 30 years -- as soon as they make a buck -- that is what should be condemned and deplored, not the religious people who actually believe that unfaithfulness is a sin.
BECK: However, we know, Rabbi, that religious people sin and get involved in all of this as well. Religion does not protect one from this.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: I think there is a role within the standpoint of saying, when you have congregations that say, this will not stand, this is not acceptable in our community. Because it`s male acceptedness that makes it permissible. When other men stand around, well-meaning men stand around and allow this to happen, then it becomes OK. The only time it gets fingered is when you get caught in the media.
BECK: You can preach and believe something, though, and not necessarily always with your actions follow through on it. There is a certain hypocrisy in that, but it`s human nature. We`re frail human beings and people mess up.
BEHAR: Let`s do another story here, because -- let`s talk about the Occupy Wall Street movement, which has been going on for a while now. And basically their beef is that 1 percent of the country controls all the wealth of the population, and the system is rigged to take away the middle class and the poor and their power, financial power.
Now, that sounds like a moral failing to me in the system, to tell you the truth. It`s not just an economic issue. It`s morality. What would Jesus do for the poor? What was, Jesus take care of the poor, wash the feet of the poor?
BECK: It is a real moral issue, and the Catholic Church has spoken really strongly about economic social justice. And the gospel says if you have two coats and you meet somebody with no coat, you have a moral obligation to give them one of your coats. It`s much more socialist, the gospel, than it is capitalist. And people don`t like to admit that. I think we have all of these conservative Catholics and conservative religious people who say that`s not what Jesus meant at all. Well, where is the evidence that that`s not what he meant?
BEHAR: Why not just go with what he said?
ABDUL-MALIK: I think all the way across, this is a moral issue which is rooted in text. The Prophet Mohammed said if you go to bed with your stomach full and your neighbor is hungry, you`re not a believer. So belief and the care for these people is definitely part of the equation.
But we have got hypocrisy going on. We have got a few people who run everything and they are not on Wall Street. This is like people looking at the casino gambler, who is the banker and the mortgage guy, they`re all going to the casino to play, but the house is in Washington, and the Congress and the Senate passing laws that make it legal for them to do the things that they`ve done.
BEHAR: I know. The system is rigged.
ABDUL-MALIK: The system is rigged.
BOTEACH: I have to be careful what I say here, because God has already promised me that I will come back in the next life as a hedge fund manager, God willing.
BEHAR: You believe in reincarnation now, this is new?
BOTEACH: Only if -- only as a hedge fund manager--
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: The fact is that communism is evil, socialism does not work, so we`re capitalist. But capitalism can be abused. The bankers have in many cases behaved like pigs at the trough.
BEHAR: Totally.
BOTEACH: And the fact that billionaires are getting bailouts so they can buy Ferraris and have homes in the Hamptons is disgusting while Main Street gets no bailout. So -- and that is what has to be corrected.
But the Occupy Wall Street movement are taking it to an extreme. They are saying capitalism itself is evil. Let them live in places like China, where the Nobel Peace Prize winner is actually living in a jail cell right now.
BEHAR: They`re capitalist now in China, aren`t they?
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: The definition of a communist is someone who has nothing and wants to share it with you. We want to have a society that there has to be greater distribution, but you do have to reward effort.
So what I would like to see is people reaping the fruits of their reward, the fruits of their labor for working hard, but they have to be charitable. We should be encouraging people (inaudible) to give 20 percent of what they have.
BEHAR: Wait a second. My impression is not that the Occupy Wall Street people want to be communist or believe in communism. That is a canard that the New York Post likes to put out. It`s not true.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: They seem to be going after the capitalist system in general, not just the bankers.
BEHAR: They`re talking about 1 percent versus 99 percent of the wealth.
ABDUL-MALIK: Something is wrong with this.
BEHAR: Something is wrong there.
BECK: And they are trying to say the economic system is also a moral and ethical issue. It`s not just about economy. You have to figure morality and ethics into your economic system.
ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed.
BECK: And capitalism in the extreme does not.
BEHAR: OK. Let me ask you a hard question that only I will ask you. Do you think it`s fair that religious institutions should not pay taxes?
BECK: Yes.
BEHAR: You think it`s fair? And why is that? Should we know where the money goes?
BECK: Because the majority of religious institutions are not-for- profit. They exist to perform services for people. And so why should they be taxed then, be burdened with taxes if they`re performing services that the government would have to perform were the religious institution not there?
ABDUL-MALIK: I think they are two different things. If you`re talking about the church and the mosque and the synagogue is collecting money and giving it to the poor, that`s one thing. That should be tax- exempt. You`re giving your money to the church or whatever, to help people.
BEHAR: That`s right. I would agree with that.
ABDUL-MALIK: But --
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: But when the religious institution owns a hotel and an office building, that ought to be taxed. And I can tell you, there are many like the Catholic Church or others, who have those kind of investments, and they don`t pay tax on it.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: I need to visit that one. I missed that.
ABDUL-MALIK: Come to Washington, I`ll introduce you to the cardinal.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: We have to encourage people to give more to charity, not less. I don`t want to see the government providing most of the social services because then people don`t change. They don`t choose to be generous. But if you just cut off tax deductible donations and things like that, which is one of President Obama`s proposals right now, people will be less generous.
I salute people like Warren Buffet who now want to give away most of their wealth, and Andrew Carnegie who said that the person who dies with money actually shames himself. But if the government takes it away from 50 percent to state taxes, you`re not changing, you are being coerced.
BEHAR: OK. Before we go to the next segment, which I`ll have more questions about a few things, like I want to hear what you think about the fact that Conrad Murray is going up, for one thing. Who is the next Martin Luther King? When we come back, tell me who you think. We`ll continue with this in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my superlative religious panel. OK. Any suggestions for the next Martin Luther King, who was like a big-time religious leader and led the flock?
BOTEACH: I absolutely want to nominate myself. If (inaudible) can run for president of the United States, I want to run for that. The fact is--
BEHAR: Humility doesn`t --
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: That`s not true. Of all my outstanding virtues, my humility stands out the most. So I have -- Imam Johari has made me an honorary African-American, so I have that qualification, and in addition, Martin Luther King was the greatest American of the 20th century because he restored America to its founding principles, and he talked about values. He spoke -- he shamed us --
ABDUL-MALIK: Radical revolution values.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: Values are the one thing nobody talks about. We talk about money, we talk violence (ph). I talk about values. Vote for me.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: He`s on Facebook. We can vote for him.
BEHAR: OK. Just give me the name, don`t give me a speech.
ABDUL-MALIK: I believe at the hardest (ph) -- if we look back at the march on Washington.
BEHAR: Yes.
ABDUL-MALIK: Nobody thought that Martin Luther King was going to be the leader.
BEHAR: So you have nobody else?
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: I win by default.
BEHAR: It`s Rabbi Shmuley by default.
BOTEACH: With Father Beck as my campaign manager and this is my PR manager. So I`m set.
BEHAR: All right. Can you give me one sentence on your reaction to Michael Jackson`s accuser (sic) -- I mean, not accuser, Conrad Murray verdict?
BOTEACH: Conrad Murray is a fraud, he`s a fraud, he`s a liar. He deserves to rot in jail. He got off way too easy. He has expressed not an ounce of remorse. Now we discover he has done a documentary during the trial for which he may have been paid. I criticize MSNBC for having made the documentary. A man should not benefit from the death of any human being, including a superstar.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Let me just say one thing, there`s this former MTV News anchor, Kurt Loder, OK, he just gave an interview saying that he believes Michael Jackson was a child molester, and that -- that tempers any feelings he had about his death being a tragedy.
BOTEACH: Disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: Michael was never convicted of anything. It`s disgusting to say that. That is -- and that is attacking a man who is in the grave and cannot defend himself.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: We do know something about Michael. He was a drug addict.
BEHAR: That`s true.
BECK: He is not an innocent victim here. He looks for drugs, he paid people to get drugs. He abused drugs. He is complicit in his own death.
BOTEACH: He paid a bigger price. He paid with his life.
BECK: That`s fine--
BOTEACH: Murray is a pusher, he`s not a doctor, he is a pusher.
BECK: They presented him as a hero, though, an icon. He`s not a hero, he is not an icon.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: He`s a tragic figure.
BECK: He is a drug addict who abused his power.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: He wasn`t on trial.
BOTEACH: Michael is an American morality tale.
BECK: Doesn`t matter.
BOTEACH: The ultimate story of how money and fame will not bring you happiness. He was abandoned, lonely and forlorn. He needed help.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why didn`t the family intervene?
BOTEACH: Michael didn`t have much of a relationship with them, to be perfectly honest.
BECK: Now they`re there, aren`t they? Each day hooting and hollering at the trial, what an abuse of justice.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: It`s not about his family. We`re talking about a guy--
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: Father Beck, we can`t blame the victim.
ABDUL-MALIK: He has a role to say--
BECK: Yes, you can. He`s not a victim.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: He`s complicit in his own death.
BOTEACH: You counsel people in crisis.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Stop it.
BOTEACH: I come in peace. I come in peace. You`re ganging up on the Jew.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s fine. What else have you got to say? Go ahead. We haven`t got--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Once you put the nickel in Rabbi Shmuley, there`s no stopping him.
BOTEACH: I just feel if I wasn`t Jewish, no one would be ganging up on me right now, that`s all I`m saying.
BEHAR: You know, there is the point to be made, that the guy`s family never intervened in his drug addiction. I think-- come on, what about that?
BOTEACH: He was a grown adult and he had a nuclear family. And Michael made many mistakes. I -- in the Michael Jackson (inaudible), he actually admits his mistakes. He says that he had no childhood, he was miserable, unhappy, used to walk the streets begging people to speak to him, and he made the cardinal error of believing that attention from fans would somehow compensate for love from relatives. I agree with that. That still doesn`t mean that a physician should betray the Hippocratic oath and give him a mountain of drugs to kill himself. He belongs in jail.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What about the other doctors who gave him Demerol?
BOTEACH: Yes, they`ve all gotten off.
BEHAR: Where are they?
BOTEACH: Those other doctors -- let me just say--
BECK: And what about the father, who he said was abusive to him growing up, and this father showing up every day at the trial, the perfect parent, the perfect father. What is this?
BOTEACH: The way I see it, we`re all a mixed bag, and if his father did something criminal, his father ought to be punished.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: But there are no accusations that he did anything criminal. As far as--
BECK: Michael made the accusations.
BOTEACH: As far as allegations against Michael, they were never proven in court. He was tried by a jury of his peers and he was vindicated. So for someone to bring it up now is grossly unfair.
BEHAR: Well, didn`t he -- he paid off the kids. But still--
BOTEACH: I think that was a very grave mistake that he paid them off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know, but we`re out of time now--
BECK: We can`t even -- oh, what was your next topic anyway that we didn`t get to?
BEHAR: The next topic was going to be good.
ABDUL-MALIK: Herman Cain.
BEHAR: You`d have to come back.
BECK: Oh, Herman Cain.
BEHAR: Thanks, everybody. We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Legendary Penn State football coach Joe Paterno is under fire in the wake of a sex abuse scandal involving former defensive coach Jerry Sandusky. Sandusky is accused of sexually abusing eight boys over a 15- year period. What exactly did Paterno know? Did he do enough to stop it? And will he be fired after 46 seasons at the school?
Here now with the latest on the story is CNN correspondent Jason Carroll. Jason, Paterno was apparently aware that Sandusky sexually abused a young boy. So what exactly did he know and when did he know it?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, according to a grand jury report, Joy, it was back in 2002 that a graduate assistant came to Paterno and said that he had witnessed a boy who appeared to be about 10 years old being sexually assaulted by Sandusky in the shower. Now, according to what the attorney general`s office is telling us, he did then what he was supposed to do under the law. Paterno told his immediate supervisor, which would be Tim Curley, the athletic director. So in the eyes of the law, Joy, he did what he was supposed to do. But the question is morally, did he do what he was supposed to do? Which was why didn`t he or for that matter any of the other officials here at the school tell police, which they did not.
BEHAR: So he didn`t do anything else to stop it or try to reach out to the victim or anything like that?
CARROLL: Short answer, no. He did not reach out to the victim. In fact, no one reached out to the victim. We should point that out, not just Paterno, but no one reached out to the victim, and that`s why that particular victim, who is identified in the grand jury report, Joy, as victim No. 2, to this day has not been identified. Investigators still cannot find that person.
I also want to give you just a bit of an update too, because I know at the onset of this we said eight victims. But I`ve spoken to a source close to the investigation who now tells me that a man walked into a police station just about an hour and a half from where we are at Penn State and claimed that he was also victimized by Sandusky. And if that proves to be true, Joy, that would make him the ninth victim.
BEHAR: OK. Wow. I mean, he`s a serial abuser if these allegations are true. Is Paterno being charged with any crime?
CARROLL: Good question. And he is not. And yesterday, as you know, the attorney general had a press conference and a lot of people were packed in there thinking perhaps more charges would be filed. But once again, after speaking to the attorney general and speaking to police here, I want to make it clear, Paterno did not break any laws. He did not commit any crimes, so he is not being charged with anything at all. I think the question with him, Joy, and that`s what you`re hearing out here in the community with alumni and with students is, morally did he do the right thing? And he wants to speak out about it.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you very much, Jason.
OK. We`ll have more on this story tomorrow when I speak with someone who has been friends with Jerry Sandusky for almost 20 years. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
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